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« Sky TV Debate | Main | Davis and Cameron promise to be friends of Israel »

Comments

Chris Palmer

"I would never, never make such accusations that you just did."

And that is where you fail, and the Conservative party have failed in the past. No point in keeping silent - sweeping these issues under the rug and trying to forget about them - that is what Labour has been doing. Open the issue up to the public and I think you'll find that a great many people feel the same way as I do. Integration is essential to social cohesion and in areas where integration has not taken place you can see the breakdown of society.

Rick

nd highly biased since it is research conducted by a Trade Union

Actually the Trades Union Congress Chris Palmer, not a "trade union". Clearly one can never take at face value anything from the Centre for Policy Studies, nor from the Conservative DResearch Dept because on your logic they must be biased. No amount of outside verification can overcome such bias.

You are the reactionary Chris Palmer, the caricature of an Arch-Tory Adullamite. Read what you wrote. You think 5 million people in the public sector is too much out of a workforce of 26 million.

I think you are an adolescent with a very limited grasp on big numbers, an inability to do analysis, and a naive understanding of the society in which you live. Moreover I think people who articulate viewpoints in the crude, simplistic, and ill-informed way you did above drive voters away from Conservative candidates. It reads like those reactionaries in the Federation of Conservative Students, or even a young John Bercow.

Rick

I think that some immigrants who enter this country do not integrate into society (which some don’t) and that those people are in fact the racists themselves by failing to at least try to follow some of our customs, or refer to themselves as British Asian or British Muslims for example.

By definition "immigrants" enter the country. The issue is those born here and educated in comprehensives almost exclusively Muslim in composition because their birthrate is differentially higher than that of Whites.

The term "British Asian" is one on Government forms such as Census or that output demanded of public bodies by the Home Office (after Straw imposed it)brwaking down all clients by race and ethnic group, see also police forms.

Most Pakistanis in Britain are from Kashmir and resent Pakistan and India, pushing to have Kashmiri as their designation.

You may be "White-British" or "White-Other" but these are the categories laid down by the British State


http://www.statistics.gov.uk/about/ethnic_group_statistics/how_define/

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=764

http://www.national-statistics.gov.uk/census2001/pdfs/H1.pdf

Chris Palmer

"Clearly one can never take at face value anything from the Centre for Policy Studies, nor from the Conservative Research Dept."

Well clearly Rick, because they're both biased. Aren’t we all?

"You think 5 million people in the public sector is too much out of a workforce of 26 million."

Yes I do. 5 million people (and more) employed by the state in an economy like the UK is far too much in my opinion. The state is becoming increasingly bloated and unnecessarily bureaucratic. In a free-market economy, 20% of the workforce should not be in the pay of the Government. Unemployment is only low because Gordon Brown pays so many people to do jobs that are just not needed. However you try to morally justify the existence of these jobs, the fact remains that many are surplus to requirement and the economy could run just as easily without some of them. As I said above, I work in the public sector. I see this for myself. Do you?

"I think you are an adolescent with a very limited grasp on big numbers"

If you think that 5 million and 26 million are "big numbers" then it must be you who has the limited grasp. However, you seem to think that your obvious advanced age gives you the right to say what is correct or not. How wrong you are. Increasing age only serves to further set people in their ways and blinds them to many stark and obvious truths. Further, what position of authority allows you to dictate otherwise? (Certainly not the websites you have provided.) You obviously are no economist or of a position to know a great deal, otherwise you would not be exchanging words with an “adolescent” on some backwater comment space of the ConservativeHome website. This “adolescent” still has time to refine his views – but for you, as the vultures circle and the slow signs of death and darkness encroach, your time has nearly run out. My suspicions are that you have achieved nothing in life and are probably stuck in some dead-end job. Your frustrations and prejudices lie therein.

“You are the reactionary Chris Palmer.”

Yes, quite probably. But the point is that I can accept that, whereas you obviously cannot accept that you are likewise and reactionary. It merely takes a quick look at all the above comments to prove that you are reactionary.

“By definition "immigrants" enter the country. The issue is those born here and educated in comprehensives almost exclusively Muslim in composition because their birthrate is differentially higher than that of Whites.”

And your point is what exactly? Surely the different birth-rates are due to a difference in culture. If the birth rates are different, surely that is a sign that integration has not taken place.

Further, I quote: “Muslim in composition because their birthrate is differentially higher than that of Whites.” That’s highly racist isn’t it? Are you saying that white people cannot be Muslims? You should know that follows of Islam (or any religion for that matter) can be of any skin colour or creed. Muslims are not exclusively Black or Arabic or Asian. I think you are the one who is susceptible to the “simplistic and ill-informed way” of expressing yourself. You really put your foot in it there.

Also, I think the fact that (let us say for the moment) Muslims being educated in almost exclusively Muslim comprehensives says less about birth-rate and far more about the communities they congregate and live in.

“You may be "White-British" or "White-Other" but these are the categories laid down by the British State.”

I see, and because the British state lays down these guidelines for use in a census, does that therefore mean that people should in public continue to walk round referring to themselves as “British Muslims” for example. You don’t get many people referring to themselves as “British Christians.” For many, their faith seems to be an excuse for them to cling on to customs imported along with them.

Again, as I said before Rick, provide an argument with constructive reasoning and then maybe myself and others reading this will take you seriously.

Rick

Ah Chris you are so predictable....try reading properly before you place your first quotation:

nor from the Conservative DResearch Dept because on your logic they must be biased. No amount of outside verification can overcome such bias.

"Clearly one can never take at face value anything from the Centre for Policy Studies, nor from the Conservative Research Dept."

Well clearly Rick, because they're both biased. Aren’t we all?

Rick

As I said above, I work in the public sector. I see this for myself. Do you?


Then resign Chris Palmer - it will save the Govt having to fire you !

Rick

You obviously are no economist or of a position to know a great deal,

Wrong again Chris Palmer ! Depressing isn't it how you repeat your errors.


You are a great expert on Islam in Britain I see. You do not know what proportion of mothers are imported from Kashmir to start families at 16 or 17 so that by 23 they have 4-5 children. That is highly unusual among White women, in fact with 60% Bangladeshis in receipt of benefit this ratio exceeds that of the indigenous population to a high degree.

As for schools - it is not a matter of catchment areas, it is absolute. Schools are being pulled down, and where listed converted into flats, whereas new schools are being built in areas of Kashmiri concentration in inner cities. It is simple arithmetic, if in a city like Bradford 60% births are to mothers not born in the UK you have a different issue with language and differential rates of birth. Do read some of the comments by Ann Cryer, MP on this subject - she is very well informed.

Rick

You don’t get many people referring to themselves as “British Christians.”

Unfortunate, but true ! Christianity does not seem to be as well-regarded by the indigenous population as does Islam by immigrant populations.

Much of the blame can be laid at the door of both schools and The Church of England which has lacked the proselyting zeal of the Methodists.

If only people would identify themselves as "British Christians" so much could be improved in society, don't you think Chris Palmer ?

Rick

Surely the different birth-rates are due to a difference in culture. If the birth rates are different, surely that is a sign that integration has not taken place.

Not really unless you imply that the indigenous population is more money-oriented and less family-oriented ?

However the Govt used to tell us we had a declining population and could not sustain ourselves, yet Britain alone in the EU has a rapidly increasing population which Neoclassical Economics tell us increases the growth rate, however there is no effective demand because children is the biggest cause of poverty for lower income groups

Richard Carey

"This is madness. These people like to keep their cultural identity when they arrive in this country and seem to be proud of it!"

Wouldn't it be marvellous if we thought they could do both? Wouldn't it be great if Conservatives were seen to be promoting people's right to keep their historical allegiances at the same time as honouring their responsibilities as British Citizens?

There has, ultimately, been a great debate on this thread and throughout this blog. I continue to disagree with those contributors who feel that they would not be able to support the Party with DC as leader. I implore them not to be short-sighted, but to wait and see what emerges from the cocoon of the leadership contest, and to continue to support the Conservatives to win the next election, as they said they have done in the past.

I look forward to their being alongside me after Dec 6th in campaigning and recruiting for our Party. If they genuinely cannot do this, they should have the good sense to withdraw and not hinder our progress.

Jack Stone

How downright silly for someone to say he will not vote for DC because he looks and sounds like Tony Blair.
It seems to me that the thing that Davis supporters have in common is not there views but there shallowness!

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