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« Is David Cameron finally emerging as the modernisation candidate? | Main | Will DD's surplus supporters vote tactically? And who for? »

Comments

James Hellyer


So, DD's a neo-con.

James Hellyer

Okay, it was fun to try out Ken Clarke's slur of choice ;-)

More seriously, this looks like it was a good speech, but I don't think it compares to Dr Fox's offerings.

While strong where the EU and Atlantic Alliance were concerned, it did little to break out of this "comfort zone" as Dr Fox's speeches have done.

It's relatively straightforward, and in keeping with conetmpoarary Conservatism, to be tough on the War on Terror (though Clarke and Rifkind may disagree) and scornful toward multilaterlaism. These are pretty much what I'd call the right wing comfort zone in foreign politics. It's what most of us think.

The thing is that it has little reach beyond that. It's Dr Fox's emphasis on human right and Michaelo Ancram's position on the environment that gives these fairly core policies the ability to reach outside the traditional Conservative vote (who are just happy with the EU bashing) and attract the additional support we need to win.

malcolm

I hate to disagree with you Editor, but I found this speech lightweight at best.On Europe he doesn't explain at all how a Eurosceptic Britain should react to a creeping federalism or what powers a Conservative government will seek to repatriate from Europe.The Telegraph eloquently calls today for the Tories to raise their Eurosceptic game and calls the party unambitous in their approach to Europe.
On Iraq, Davis' speech is worse than lightweight, it is frankly stupid. He completely ignores the threat from Shia militants to our forces, he says we must remain until 'there is a stable and free Iraq' but gives absolutely no clue as to how this will be achieved.
No wonder the Conservative newspapers,the Mail & the Telegraph chose to completely ignore this speech.
Davis has been extremely successful in attracting MPs to his cause despite running a very low key campaign, I really really hope there is more to DD and his ideas than this speech demonstrates.

Editor

You're always disagreeing with me Malcolm but I still love you!

The solid position on Turkey's EU membership (a vital model for Old World-Muslim relations), the defence of the Atlantic partnership in terms of Britain's permanent interests, support for a bigger UK military (in contrast with 'Malcolm Options For Change Rifkind'), UN-scepticism, and making development one of his five big themes are among the reasons that this is an important speech.

James Hellyer

"You're always disagreeing with me Malcolm but I still love you!"

Does this mean Dr Fox would have large reservations about your relationship? ;-)

James Maskell

I disagree with DD over Turkey. Turkey has to fulfil the requirements as laid down and Britain should not support Turkey's application on the basis of improving relations between Christians and Muslims...its fake and ignores the poor human rights record of Turkey. The EU is already unwieldy with its 25 members...do we need yet another one?

James Hellyer

"The EU is already unwieldy with its 25 members...do we need yet another one?"

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last 500 years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now when it's worked so well?

James Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely.

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Yes, and current policy. We had to break the whole thing up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased, it's just like old times.

James Hacker: But if that's true, why is the foreign office pushing for higher membership?

Sir Humphrey Appleby: I'd have thought that was obvious. The more members an organization has, the more arguments it can stir up. The more futile and impotent it becomes.

James Hacker: What appalling cynicism.

Sir Humphrey Appleby: We call it diplomacy, Minister.

Daniel Vince-Archer

"I disagree with DD over Turkey" - James Maskell

Me too. Not only because a token gesture to Islam is not a good enough reason to add another member to the EU, but also because it won't achieve anything whilst we continue to turn a blind eye to Israel riding roughshod over UN resolutions.

James Hellyer

The UN is deeply prejudiced against Israel. The list of the UN resolutions concerning Israel and the alleged complicity of UNIFIL in the October 2000 Lebanon abduction of three Israeli Engineering Corps soldiers, by Hizbullah is evidence of this.

In August 2004, the United Nations Association of the United Kingdom (UNA-UK) published a report analysing thirteen years of United Nations resolutions on the Arab-Israeli conflict. In light of the study’s conclusions, Malcolm Harper, speaking on behalf of the UNA-UK (of which he was director until recently), called for an examination into how, if at all, the lopsided resolutions contribute to the Middle East peace process:
http://www.unwatch.org/pbworks/UNA-UK_Report.pdf


makes the following principal findings:

1) The texts of UN General Assembly and Security Council resolutions are "often unbalanced in terms of the length of criticism and condemnation of Israeli actions in the Occupied Territories as against Palestinian axtions such as suicide bombings."

2) The United Nations is "palpably more critical of Israeli policies and practices than it is of either Palestinian actions or the wider Arab world."

3) In resolutions of the UN General Assembly, "violence perpetrated against Israeli civilians, including the use of suicide bombers, is mentioned only a few times and then in only vague terms."

Israel is a democracy under siege. The fact that Arab nations abuse to UN persecute it, does not change that.

Daniel Vince-Archer

And there was me thinking Israel's illegal annexation of territory and subsequent persecution of the population within was the problem. Silly me.

James Hellyer

Oh yes, because the Arab nations have never repeatedly launched wars of aggression, supported terrorist attacks and then used the Muslim bloc vote in the UN to condem their enemy.

It must be nice in your black & white world.

Editor

Israel is an oasis of democracy in a desert of totalitarianism. It deserves our support.

James Maskell

Both Israel and Palestinians are attacking each other...its like the Chicken and the Egg..God knows which came first... Israel hasnt helped matters with its wall. Israel has just pased more operations for its forces to go and kill who it sees as attackers.

The problem with the Israel comflict is that its very much like Iraq right now...the Palestinians are angry that Israel keeps controlling it and essentially retaining land it considers its own. Iraq is similar...the insurgents dont want the "Coalition of the Willing" in control of its land.

Daniel Vince-Archer

I'm not condoning terrorism or Arab wars of aggression, I'm merely condemning what prompted some of the anti-West, anti-Israel attitude amongst Islamic nations...

Oh, by the way, Arabs and Moslems aren't the same thing...

James Hellyer

" I'm merely condemning what prompted some of the anti-West, anti-Israel attitude amongst Islamic nations..."

That's rubbish. The anti-Israeli sentiment has existed since the day that state was called into being.

The real reason is anti-semitism - simple as that. Actons of the Israeli state may have fed the resentments, but that's all. Israel's very existance is the cause.

And by citing these UN resolutions, you are giving into organsised anti-semitism.


"Oh, by the way, Arabs and Moslems aren't the same thing..."

And I never siad they were. However there is a huge crossover.

James Hellyer

"Israel hasnt helped matters with its wall."

The very wall that has reduced the level and scope of attacks on Israeli civilians.

Daniel Vince-Archer

"That's rubbish. The anti-Israeli sentiment has existed since the day that state was called into being."

Undoubtedly so, but the Israelis certainly did not help their cause by their illegal annexation of territory and persecution of the problem within.

Also, I don't understand why you dismiss it as 'rubbish', when three sentences later you say 'actions of the Israeli state may have fed the resentments'. That seems to be along the same lines as what I was saying, although I'm sure you'll prove me wrong with one of your pedantic analyses of what we've both said...

Daniel Vince-Archer

Oops, major error there (too much red wine!) from me. I meant to say 'persecution of the population within', not 'persecution of the problem within'!

Daniel Vince-Archer

"Israel is an oasis of democracy in a desert of totalitarianism. It deserves our support." - Editor

I believe similar arguments were used to justify supporting undesirable regimes in the Third World during the Cold War (i.e. country x is an oasis of pro-Westernism in a desert of pro-Sovietism). Democracy does not excuse deliberate persecution (see apartheid - South Africa; racial segregation - United States; ethnic cleansing - Yugoslavia).

In the 21st century, there should be no room for the 'he's a bastard, but at least he's our bastard' approach to international politics (guess which subject I graduated in last year ;-) !).

James Hellyer

"Also, I don't understand why you dismiss it as 'rubbish', when three sentences later you say 'actions of the Israeli state may have fed the resentments'."

Quite simple, you said "Israel's illegal annexation of territory and subsequent persecution of the population within was the problem..."

Which is rubbish. And what you had asserted was the cause of the problem (as opposed to a symptom).

Even without its current policies, Israel would still be regarded as an enemy, and thus subjected to UN resolutions, by the Moslem voting bloc. it would still be subject to terrorist attacks. That's clear enough in the PLO Charter.

The way to secure peace in the Middle East isn't by helping Moslem nations criminalise Israel through a series of politically motivated UN resolutions. It's by helping Ariel Sharon follow current policies that represent demographic realities...

"That seems to be along the same lines as what I was saying"

But that wasn't the point you appeared to be starting from (as shown above).

"although I'm sure you'll prove me wrong with one of your pedantic analyses of what we've both said..."

Glad to oblige.

James Hellyer

"Democracy does not excuse deliberate persecution"

What deliberate persecution? The supposed mistreatment of Palestines in Israel as a sort of 3rd class is entirely down to themselves. People like the Druze made the decision in the 1950's that since they benefitted from israel, hospitals, security and so on then they MUST also be a part of that system, including serving in its defence - one of Israels best generals is a Druze - if the Palestines who wish to remain in Israel want to do so then they must support that nation.

If you benefit from the state - and Israeli Arabs are the richest Arabs per capita in the world last time I looked, then you should be part of the system. The Palestinians chose not to benefit from the state.


Daniel Vince-Archer

Well if we're going to be pedantic, the line you dismissed as rubbish was:

" I'm merely condemning what prompted some of the anti-West, anti-Israel attitude amongst Islamic nations..."

Note the key word 'some'.

I am pleased that we've abandoned our brief entente cordiale (regarding AnotherNick's cheerleading for Cameron) from earlier on though, James H ;-)...

Samuel Coates

I noticed a few very New Ground themes in the speech, I'm sure DD's team has read it.

James Hellyer

"Well if we're going to be pedantic, the line you dismissed as rubbish"

... started from the original precept that the starting poijt was the Occupied Territories, bot Israel's existance! In that light, your "some" would imply that the rest of the resentments came after those territories were occupied, rather than before, as I said.

" am pleased that we've abandoned our brief entente cordiale"

You seem to take such pleasure in that!

Shaun

When debating about the Isreali-Palestinian conflict people often tend to take sides, as if one side is good and the other side is bad (just like Hollywood's historical movies).
It's just not as simple as that. This is a conflict that cannot end without the cooperation of both sides. While the Isrealis continue to have settlements and lauch operations in the Palestinian areas, resentment toward Isreal will not be halted. While Islamic extremists continue to preach about driving the Jews back into the sea, Isreal's paranoia over its security will not fade away.

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