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"The years from 2010 to 2013 are going to be at least as painful as 1979 to 1982."

I imagine Labour might even agree (of course Brown would never say it but commenters here might and the party may tacitly accept it).

But the question is painful for whom? I imagine a very effective electoral platform could be built for Labour on the differences over that point.

All New Labs credibility is gone - Time for a government who can do the job - ELECTION TIME!!!

Labour is dead

Shame we can't cremate the whole freaking lot of them right now!

One question is there any chance that Brown and co can be held legally accountable for their maladministration via the courts? I'd love to see those Labour ***** locked up and then exiled!

I noticed Phillip Hammond just said on Sky News that scrapping the 50% rate would NOT be a priority for the Tories as the country couldn't afford to do so.

Therefore he's admitting that it WILL raise a substantial amount of money for the Treasury.

Advantage to us on that one I think. Nice to see we're setting the agenda.

An incidently death taxes are also the crippler of innovation. Many small firms end up getting broken up and sold off when a principle family member dies as a result. The beneficiaries? Big corporates who swallow them up for a tax which brings in around 1% of the tax revenue to the treasury, probably at a loss in growth of far more than this.

The 50p tax rise is a smoke screen, but it will be a popular smokescreen and whilst it won't raise that much revenue - it WILL be summed up by ordinary taxpayers as "about bloody time the rich paid more tax".

If the Tories want to shoot Labours 50p fox - they could do worse than close down all (and I mean, ALL) of the loopholes in the tax law that allow the rich to pay less tax than their cleaners.

Now that really would be something to cheer about for hard working families who don't have fancy accountants to blur the line between 'avoid' and 'evade'.

Can we have our election, now please?; and then what kind of jail will we put these crooks in? (We can just keep arresting them every 28 days, release then re-arrest them). Oh yes, and send the suitably compliant police round to confiscate all their documentation on the basis of their threat to national security.

"Nice to see we're setting the agenda."

This is true in the way that arsonists can be said to set the day's agenda for everybody in the immediate area of their activities.
It is not an example of agenda-setting I would want on my CV, but then arsonists and New Labour seem to have a lot in common.

Philip Hammond is saying we will accept Labour's 50p tax band. Gutless.

If only the election were tomorrow.
This lot still has a year to finish their scorched earth policy.

I have just completed the ConHome monthly survey and once again registered that I am 'very dissatisfied' with Mr Hammond. If what has been stated about his capitulation on the 50p tax rate is true, I am doubly dissatisfied.

I thought 45% was bad enough, but handing over 50% of my earnings to fund our inefficient bloated state? Forget it. If the Conservatives accept this, then they truly are insane.

"They could do worse than close down all (and I mean, ALL) of the loopholes in the tax law that allow the rich to pay less tax than their cleaners."

Yes, that's a good idea. And then they could go and take their wealth-creating skills to another country for them to benefit, couldn't they?

If they can find ways to avoid paying a penny to this government, most people's reaction would be: "Good luck to them."

Pink Tory - We won't win an election opposing this 50% band. To oppose this would send a gift wrapped slogan to Labour. They want us to oppose this, the Conservative party doesn't exist to do what Labour tactics want us to.

"The years from 2010 to 2013 are going to be at least as painful as 1979 to 1982."

I lived through that period and was even unemployed for couple of years. One thing that Labour will not tell you is that Unemployment benefit was substantially higher then. In addition people where allowed to busk and beg on the streets, none of this Labour policy of chasing the desperate off the streets. Heroin addiction was still rare outside of London. There was planty of help for the unemployed in well paid schemes like community program and people were being encouraged to set up their own business with the enterprise allowance.
Yes things were bad but we had government that tried to improve things. The sooner this Labour administration gets out of the way the sooner we can bring some much needed reform and encouragement for those who are willing to take up their beds and walk.

Therefore he's admitting that it WILL raise a substantial amount of money for the Treasury.
In terms of revenue raised, even the government are only saying it will raise a few billion pounds, that is if it raises anything at all.

The acceptance of the policy by George Osborne and David Cameron is political in nature, but in failing to fight the argument they are allowing Labour to set the agenda in favour of higher marginal rates of tax in that people will assume that the Conservative leadership must have decided that it will raise money, otherwise they would oppose it

James Burdett: The say anything to win philosophy was New Labour's. I hope Cameron is better than that. Voters are ready for some truthful leadership.

While Labour is treading water the country is heading into the worst fiscal position ever. It is absolutely astonishing.
I think Brown said to Darling: 'If you won't do my massive fiscal stimulus then I won't allow you to do anything!! (Stamps foot) You can bash the rich a bit and do some greenish stuff to try and wrong-foot the Tories.'

I have just seen Philip Hammond on the BBC saying that we will keep Labour's 50p top rate of tax. This is a disrace! As has already been pointed out on other websites, this will cause wealthy and productive people to leave the UK, which will in trun act as a drain on the economy.

It is all very well David Cameron being angry, afterall there is a lot to be angry about, but what are the Conservative Party going to do if they get into power. Not once today have I heard any Tory MP state what they would do should they win the next election. If they are to be taken seriously they have to set out a clear programme for how they will save this country and get it booming again, such a plan must as a basic contain a pledge to take the top rate of tax back to 40 per cent.

It's estimated that the British people overpay a total of about £10bn a year in tax.

If we want to help people, we should offer some tax avoidance and tax mitigation advice, perhaps on our party website. We could say "There's nothing we can do about Labour's tax rises until we have a General Election. In the mean time, here are some tips to help you keep Gordon Brown's hands out of your pocket"

Our position on the economy and 50p is weird. All the polls show the public thinks the Government is incompetent and wrong on the economy - and we say the same - yet we go along with almost all their spending plans and their tax rises. Why? Yes, the public would probably split 60-40 in favour of the 50p thing without a fight, but we should be fighting this so we have credibility to point out their massive mistakes on all tax and spend issues.

fight50p: "All the polls show the public thinks the Government is incompetent and wrong on the economy - and we say the same - yet we go along with almost all their spending plans and their tax rises. "

Well said!

The real winners in this Budget are our poor, long-suffering MPs.

As most of their income comes in tax-free allowances, they aren't affected by the increase in Income Tax over £150k, even though most have an income equivalent to much more than that.

Their pensions are taxpayer-funded, so they can laugh at the reduction in the tax break on private pension provision.

Their drinks are subsidised through the Houses of Parliament bars, so an increase in duty goes unnoticed.

It beggars belief that in the current climate Labour can do this - quite apart from all the other idiocies in it, a budget which hits everyone harder than the MPs themselves is disgraceful. Don't let them get away with it!

Pink Tory, it isn't about saying anything to win. It is about working out what not to say if you don't want to lose. I can guarantee that if we come out against it we will struggle to win. It is on a level of income far beyond what most people whose votes we need are ever likely to see. But it is more than that, we need to ensure that those people who don't vote for us can at least tolerate the prospect of a Conservative Govt. We really won't gain that sense of tolerance if we come out against a policy that appears fair and reasonable to a large swathe of people.

No James. We must treat the British people as grown up. We need to explain that Britain needs to create wealth. Growth will solve this deficit and nothing else. Let's not be afraid of standing up for wealth creation because wealth creation = job creation and job creation = more taxpayers.

One Billion into Social Housing - now pray forgive my total ignorance. But did we not hear this from John Prescott Ten years back?
We have over ONE MILLION non mortgageable homes within Social Housing - we have at least 50,000 voids (boarded up)- and he has earmarked another billion!! I assume John Prescotts money fell at the first fence.

Pink Tory is right - opposition to 50p is the right thing to do because it gives us credibility to make a credible attack on the entire approach of the Left. While we may get some transient superficial support for accepting 50p, we lose the ability to hit the Government hard elsewhere. It's not just wrong in principle but it's wrong politically.

“Our children will be in poverty for decades to come,” announced David Cameron. Er, yours won’t, Dave. There isn’t even a mortgage on any of your three houses. And do you really not know that there were no unburied dead during the Winter of Discontent? Either you don’t, making you too ill-informed for office. Or you do, making you too dishonest for office.

My Right Honourable Kinsman could put to the top rate up to ninety-nine pence in the pound. Tony Blair, David Cameron, George Osborne and Nick Clegg still wouldn’t pay.

Ostentatiously high rates are beside the point. There wouldn’t be the slightest need for them if the enormously rich were not effectively exempt from tax anyway.

Ending that would bring in revenue beyond what were previously our wildest dreams. It would make it possible for the personal allowance to set permanently at national median earnings for full-time work (however much that happened to be at the given time), and for everyone to be guaranteed a minimum income of half that. And it would enable us to do these things on a flat rate of income with no further exemptions.

Just as there would still have to be child benefit payable to the mother (or the father in her complete absence), so there would still have to be the restored tax allowance for the father (or the mother in his complete absence). But apart from that, one Social Security payment, called and delivering Social Security, and bringing everyone up to half median earnings for full-time work. And one tax allowance, of twice Social Security, i.e., of median earnings for full-time work.

The only way out of this mess is to give Scotland its independence - then we can send the entire Scottish Raj north of the border, we do not have to bail out the bankrupt scottish banks (RBS, HBOS and Dunfermline BS), do not have to spend disproportionately large amount of the national income on Scotland and,

do not have to put up with the gloating scots whenever we lose at any sport.

I think it's important that the Conservatives don't overdo things in terms of trying to rubbish the government. Most of their shortcomings speak very loudly for themselves and shouting too loudly about them can have the effect of sounding like a bunch of whingers who are wallowing in the country's difficulties.

I agree with fight50p.
If there's a crititism in the floating voters (and others) about DC is that he's like a weathervane.

Get some backbone and they'll stick to it.

Just look how opinion swayed in David Davis' favour when he did something solid.

The laughter from Tory MPs laughing Cameron's speech was not appropriate.

How will this 50% tax rate hit the charities? Many may now think they are giving enough and stop donating.

Where is that William Norton tax-wallah?
The cutting back of tax-relief on pensions from 40% to 20% above £180,000 is the one that is going to be interesting in money flights. It is of a demagogic appeal, nobody can argue with it on grounds of fairness.
But what will its impact be on investment into Funds - and the impact on those funds performance if there is a move to other investments? 20% relief on staying in may still be sufficient, the Govt's gamble - it may not. It would be nice to know.
I agree with Angelo Basu in another post that the 50% is not sufficient to spark mass exodus, as long as there is a committment to revoke it eventually, but to insist on immediately is trap-ground.
I will bow to Tim Montgomerie's unusual excitements on 45% in that he is right, the bastards did exceed the 45% and upped to 50% in the absence of much resistance.
Old saying "Socialist Policy is based on thief in hotel : Always try door-handles of rooms , one will open eventually and a smile and admission of mistake will get you out if necessary"

Good observation by Jennifer Wells. The laughter from our side was inappropriate. Less giggling when the economy is going down the plug hole please.

"There wouldn’t be the slightest need for them if the enormously rich were not effectively exempt from tax anyway.

Ending that would bring in revenue beyond what were previously our wildest dreams"

No it wouldn't, the rich would leg it overseas.

Good observation by Jennifer Wells.

Sounds to me like the recent common rebuttal based on complaining about something that didn't really happen... don't fall for it.

Something to remember about the 50p tax rate is that it's primarily meant to be red meat for Labour backbenchers and core voters. Rightly or wrongly there is still a mood of "hang the bankers" among the electorate. Brown would love nothing more than for Cameron and Osborne to pledge to scrap it immediately and allow Labour to have an election campaign on "Tories plan to reward the bankers who caused the credit crunch," and for the Conservative Party to begin infighting over this issue. I think Cameron and Osborne are too clever to fall into that pathetic trap. The main priority should be to stop or reverse at the earliest chance the hike in NIC announced in the PBR. That is much more insidious and clobbers the poorest in society more than the rich. I have no doubt that the next Conservative government will scrap the 50p tax band but it will take time. Just don't do Brown's dirty work for him!

We are now in a position of supporting increases in income tax and VAT, but reductions in inheritance tax. The logic in the middle of a recession of helping beneficiaries of the deceased at the expense of earners and spenders escapes me.

For God's sake, put forth a vote of NO Confidence and let's go to the polls now! Before any of the Budget can be actualised! Don't talk - just *do*.


The share prices of pension funds and insurance companies, the beneficiaries of the tax relief which will be withdrawn, have fallen sharply.

The issue here is fairness. If pensions are supposed to be saved tax free and received taxed, then this is an immoral change.

The "correct" position is to allow tax relief at 20% for the first £35k (or whatever the basic rate tranche of income now is) and then at 40% above that, rising now of course to 50% if you put in more than £150,000.

Vote: Should David Cameron oppose the 50% tax?

Darling was banging on about "Child Poverty" again. So do the Tories. I'm sick and tired about hearing about 'Child Poverty'.

As Ann Cryer admitted to The Economost Magazime - We import our own 'child poverty' and aspects thereof.

Each year 350,000 Pakistanis go back temporarily to visit their natural country of origin, most often to bring back brides to perpetuate the immigration chain.

This shocking flow of people from one of the worlds most unstable Islamic States has become the prime source of terrorism and poverty generation in Britain, The Economist asserts.

Six out of ten 'British' Pakistanis bring back brides from their natural homeland.

Deal with immigration, deal with our relationship with the Third Reich, sorry EU, and half our financial problems disappear overnight.

Sort it out Tories. And remember, Third World immigrants don't vote Conservative.

As Nu Labours traditional decent 'working class' vote looks elsewhere for a home - Many end up with The British National Party, it becomes necessary for them to import a new vote pool. So by default the Tories should sort it out. Ignore this little gem of advice at your peril.

Not only will 'poverty ' start to disappear but so will about 90 percent of all our other problems including terrorism.

Thank you for your input John Moss. I saw a 4.4% fall in Life Insurers.
The next few weeks should see some interesting letters go out again. I wonder if it will be ACT all over again, meant to target the very few but redounding across the main band of tax payers with a nasty thwack.
If so , Prime Minister for life it could mean, just not for very long.

Pink Tory - We won't win an election opposing this 50% band. To oppose this would send a gift wrapped slogan to Labour. They want us to oppose this, the Conservative party doesn't exist to do what Labour tactics want us to.

Posted by: James Burdett | April 22, 2009 at 16:13

I hope that this booby trap turns out to be a damp squib. Time to address that is when we have patched up the massive hole below the waterline of HMS UK!

"Why? Yes, the public would probably split 60-40 in favour of the 50p thing without a fight, but we should be fighting this so we have credibility to point out their massive mistakes on all tax and spend issues."

TIt would have been more meaningful to have closed some loopholes. I am not prepared to get to excited about 50%. It's the massive debt burden that we have to to highlight and fight tooth and nail. Brown has put off a lot of pain for later. Brown is still acting like he is living in a boom. In addition they are basing their figures on very dodgy forecasts. 3.5% a year with Oil acting against us...no chance. Darling should know better. 10 Blinking years pain even if we achieve these unlikely growth figures. Instead of drawing back from the brink this budget thrust us forward with quite a bit of force. This labour government is damaging this country very seriously indeed. Those who the 50% tax band will impact can always rearrange their lives. The vast majority are not able to get out of Britain so easy and as a result the majority are more concerned about the debt that Brown has gotten us into. The reality is we can cut and cut hard and we will still have a mountain of debt to overcome. As for the car scrap scheme it a nonsense the green alternative has not yet been built. Honda should go back to producing its very wonderful range of cheap and cheerful and efficient C50's,C70's and C90's. The car is a big part of the problem.
Oil ? where exactly are we going to be getting so much oil? The price is set to rise the very moment the economy starts to show the first green shoots. China can afford Oil, can we? We are going to be dependant on nations that don't like us and have plenty of reason to screw us. I know Im ranting but I could spit blood.

James Burdett: "The Conservative party doesn't exist to do what Labour tactics want us to."

I would hope that the Conservative Party exists to protect Conservative principles. The party can oppose the 50% rate without losing a single voter. It simply needs to succinctly explain the relationship between those innovators and risk-taking businessmen, and the ordinary jobs and opportunities that are created by private wealth.

A punitive tax on the rich is a tax on the future of every British citizen.

Please don't get too hung up on the 50% tax. It was a typical Labour gesture blended with a typical Labour tactic to wrong-foot the Conservatives. I agree that it is awful and in the overall scheme of things is unlikely to do much to put the country back on its feet.

And that is what the Conservatives need to be concentrating on. They should stop responding to Labour's tactics and start to shape an overall plan - strategy if you like - to get the country's books into balance and then moving towards a more positive future. Then they should set out an outline plan for how they are going to do that.

They can say that, until the know the full extent of the country's problems, they can't be too precise but the first step is to reduce borrowing and sort our the nation's finances. The next step is to decide what sort of country we are going to develop and how we are going to create a more balanced and healthy economy.

Reducing taxation, including the 50% rate will be part of the first step but until the Conservatives take office and learn the full extent of the country's problems it would be wrong for them to say when that will be.

That way they will be moving themselves above Labour's shabby tactics.

Just an idea.
Is it possible to put a petition on the Downing St Web Site for an election?

Too many naive writers here. It is unnecessary to oppose the 50P tax rate.

It will only be in force for three months at most when we come to power. If the dreadful state of the exchequer permitted Osborne can scarp it any day of the year. I suspect that there will be other priorities.

It is hard to see how the Conservatives can benefit from a strident opposition to this - there are other better grounds to fight on.

I have an excellent idea, which would work wonders in virtually all regards for Cameron and possibly the country.

He should increase taxes 10% for all employed within the public sector. With the only possible exception of front line medical staff. While reducing income taxes by 10% or more for employees in all small to medium sized independent company's. Independent meaning, not corrupted by government monopoly contracts. Medium sized, meaning company's employing less then 1-25 people, depending on the industry.

Public sector workers will have 3 choices.

Pay the extra tax and shut the F... up.

Or, take a job in the productive part of the economy, at any rate available.

Or, sign on, like the pathetically useless pile of lazy overpaid rubbish, the vast majority of them undoubtedly are.

The really good thing about the public sector ( come to think about it, the only good thing about the public sector, ) is that in some cases the government could close down whole departments, without any one even noticing. The country would not only save money, the general state of human existence on this small north Atlantic rock would radically improve virtually overnight.

There is much Cameron can do to make this country a much better place to live in without spending a penny. In reality Cameron could make this country a much better place to live in, by actually saving billions in the process.

The questions concerning Cameron are these.

Does he really want to?

Does he really intend to?

Will the establishment allow him to, even if both of the answers to the above were yes?

Quite frankly your guess is as good as mine.

Advantage to us on that one I think. Nice to see we're setting the agenda.

Posted by: NorthernMonkey | April 22, 2009 at 15:45

You certainly are, that is for sure.

Like breaking election commitments that you never intended to keep, or always knew you would one day be forced to break.

Corrupting every level of the executive.

Radically reducing social mobility, introducing with ideological enthusiasm our authoritarian nanny state. Slashing standards of living and quality of life. Destroying forever public confidence in just about everything that surrounds them. Murderously hacking to bits family life as much and as often as possible. Needlessly bankrupting an otherwise reasonably prosperous freeish nation. Sadistically and apparently pointlessly murdering thousands of innocent middle eastern human beings. This list of crimes against the common man is seemingly endless, and might eventually turn out to be so.

Yes, you can add to that list, victimizing those that can not simply look to the tax payer to protect their own hard earned, like for example MP's and their unearned unaccounted for, tax free expenses.

Posted by: Mark Hudson | April 22, 2009 at 16:13

I thought 45% was bad enough, but handing over 50% of my earnings to fund our inefficient bloated state? Forget it. If the Conservatives accept this, then they truly are insane.

Can you give this a rest? If you are really on 150K+ give you accountant a call and ask him to explain that you'll be paying an extra 10% on amounts you earn over £150K! Do you understand that?

I do not pretend to be financially sophisticated, possibly that is why I have failed to claim my share of all those loss making investments on the Stock Market, from which the more prudent later benefited . My scepticism set in, close on fifty years ago, so I then resigned from the Lloyds Insurance Broker where I had a junior position, and wallowed in shallower waters, which one managed adequately to navigate.

Later one heard that our country’s Economy was to be ‘Services Based’ rather than be financed by Manufactory ;seemingly the latter could be done more cheaply somewhere ‘East of Suez,’ as one used to say. So cheaply done that ours became a throw away economy financed by credit. First of all there was what was termed the ‘Never Never’, was that synonymous with Hire Purchase? I wouldn’t know ,but what do semantics matter now, when it is evident that even the National Economy was itself financed by theoretical money, rather than actual cash. Now have come the days of our discontent which may persist ‘even unto the third generation’.

Being as we are told a ‘Trading Nation’ everything was negotiable. We sold off our Ports and Airports, Shipbuilding, Car Manufacturing, Railways and Rail Track, Electricity, Gas, Water; and our Social Housing then as if by Magic ,Government legislated to deprive Private Landlords of their Freeholds for pepper corn recompense. Pretty shrewd those last two deals ,obviously someone had advance information that France was about to buy our Cement and Plaster Board Industries. We sold Our Insurers, Bankers, and Auction Houses and Oil concessions, then closed our Coal Mines., and now we plan to contract-out the construction of our Nuclear Reactors, and Wind Generators. The factual detail is too embarrassing to elaborate upon. Much of this was ,and is still done in the name of the ‘Market Economy’, whilst in reality we as Harold MacMillan once said ‘have been selling off the family silver.’ Governments did this either to earn the quick buck, or in the cause of expediency. Whichever our Nation’s wealth , that Generations handed down to us has been squandered by the like ‘Carpet Baggers’, persons whose greatest contribution
Is their own incompetence. Two thoughts come to mind, firstly the words ‘Mess of Pottage’, and then ‘When will they ever learn?’

There is too all this European nonsense. The concept of Europe that we voted for, is not the Europe that we as a Nation got. Obviously the detail did have to be ‘filled in’, but how was it that ‘Perfidious Albion’ always drew the short straw in subsequent debate, be it concerning the surrender of our Fisheries, or unsuccessful quotations to costruct our own Ocean Liners, Aircraft and even Military Hardware? We are known to be a soft touch, and others advantage themselves of our lack of Resolution, why is it that we do not have the same access to Europe Markets, that Europe has to ours?
I can answer that one easily enough. The more significant of our European ‘Partners’, for want of a better word, quite rightly look after their own National Interest before that of any other country, Protectionism is still to the fore. Only last week one had all that nonsense with the French Fisherman at Calais. ‘Oh lack a day ‘ there is now no Townsend Thorensen Ferry to bump them from the Harbour Mouth. Who bought their Ferries off P& O, was it Brittany Ferries?

Last week the lady Mayor of Calais was complaining about the United Kingdoms’s attractiveness to the illegal immigrant and seekers of Sanctuary. I think Madame had a point, but she misunderstood the Immigrants motivation. She thought the attraction was that we provided free Housing, Education., Health Care and Modest Sustenance , not only for them but too their dependents. I really think the good Lady is too cynical for her own good. Au contraire madame, it is well know that Sanctuary apart, many Immigrants come here to do the Jobs that we the English ‘won’t do.’ How come we won’t do such work .Do we not all need to eat and find shelter? Are we too over educated ‘ to accept menial employment probably not, or is it that Benefits are too easily available, and possibly produce a better net. return than many a wage packet? If such is the case, who would blame the apparently work shy? For the blame is not theirs ,but is the fault of the ‘Powers that Be’. Both New Labour and Old Labour have not only failed the Working Class, but have at the same time dis-advantaged all others, except over paid Parliamentarians.

There is every possibility there will be a General Election before next Spring ‘So in the name of God go now.

Our Nation lacks effective Leadership, whom is there in Government that has the respect of the populous ? Is it maybe that I have become too old and disillusioned , feeling things have not improved since the days of my childhood., for then Depression was at the backdoor and the Jackboot at the front, but even so the sun shone the summer long..

The last chap who wanted to know, ‘whether we were thinking what he was thinking’ was none too successful. Was that because he didn’t actually tell us, what he was thinking? Any Politician willing ‘To stake his all upon one turn of Pitch and Toss,’ might either do a power of good, or have to start again at his or her beginnings, but none the less that too would be a famous victory, for Governance is about coherent leadership, not Pussy Footing and Political Correctness.

Looking at the reaction in the city yesterday it seems that this new Labour project is dead. All that remains to be seen is whether they lose the next election by a small amount or a landslide.
This presents the Conservative Party with a stiff challenge. I think we now need to change tactics and start to behave less like an opposition and much more like a responsible and above all honest alternative government.
That means much less blaming Brown for everything (I think people know who is responsible) and instead tell people clearly and honstly what we would propose as an alternative.
If that costs us some seats then I still believe it's a price worth paying for when we are in government.

If we Conservatives are going to stick to the fiscal insanity set by McMental & Captain Darling & tax the wealth creators & generators into a Taxodus, then what is the point of voting Conservative?

I may as well vote for the current set of feckless, terminally unemployable neo socialist lunatics we already suffer under.

Japan tried to spend its way out of their 1990s recession.

They built bridges & roads to nowhere.

That took money & resources away from SME enterprises with innovative products that people wanted to buy.

Japan also had much more financial reserves to actually try stimulating the economy.

They failed. They admit that the public sector spending they embarked on prolonged the recession & the pain for ordinary people.

It is laughable to the point of tears that McMental & Captain Darling can even contemplate growing PSBR right now - laughable.

New Labours true legacy is the introduction of the concept & reality of inter-generational debt, with every British taxpayer yet unborn entering this world with tens of thousands of pounds of public debt.

We should be slashing public spending - we have a moral duty to the unborn British taxpayers to do something drastic that will reduce the horrendous New Labour public debts the unborn taxpayers will face when they eventually arrive.

Darling said in his budget statement that he would help pensioners,if the RPI index falls below zero the pension will be increased by 2.5%.
I understand this is the normal practice.

Scap the top rate of tax and all National Insurance. A flat rate tax of 10p in the pound with no personal allowance. All public 'services' to be reduced by 90% in both personnel and budget which will provide a basic and efficient service in welfare and health. If people want more than this they go private - they will have the money to do this because of the low rate of tax. Very Small Government = Very Low Taxation = Self Reliant Wealth Creating Individuals = Prosperity And Happiness For All.

For Heavens sake..just stop going on about the 50p issue.
If you earn £160K you will be paying about 1.5% more tax per month.OK I'm excluding the personal allowance change and pension contributions,and ready to be corrected,but for the 50p issue it's not that far off.
Consider it the price to be paid to get rid of Labour.
Opposing it plays directly into the hands of Brown and his cohorts.

Nick Wilson,there is the link to the downing st website,please get everybody you know to sign it.

To boringly repeat.

What a bunch of numpties. There is no evidence to say that if the Tories has opposed 45p Labour would not have still upped the anti with 50p. An asinine assumption.

The harsh facts that dopey Conservatives have to face is that all these measures will be in place when they hopefully take office.

Oppose it? So what? The govt have a majority of 60.

ConHome is supposed to be a clever site a site run by people with brains for the discerning 'center right' voter.

This post is for the brain deads. There is no NEED to do anything except worry about the massive truly massive debt we will inherit and how to coherently reduce it.

Whatever the 50p tax and other measures on the high paid raise would have to be replaced somehow. Go ahead dopes - explain how you forgo this money whilst taxing the lower paid. Go ahead. A great campaign slogan.

Reducing growth in govt expenditure will be hard enough without more hair shirt hostages to fortune.

Read my last post and understand economics.

Governments do not create wealth, only the conditions where wealth can be created. Labour (Socialist) Governments are incapable of doing either because they want people to have no opportunity to do anything but be reliant on them. Look at the size of the useless and incompetent public sector and welfare state that the UK has become over the last 12 years.

The majority of low paid are where they are because of their laziness and lack of enterprise and ambition. As for the rich (150k per annum is not rich), they will just carry on avoiding/evading tax more efficiently than they are now. Good luck to them.

I think it is time for Mr Brown to go. If you agree, sign the Number 10 petition asking him to resign:


No Kalvis let him stay. Labour might just mount a comeback given a new leader.I want him and Darling to stay put, that way we know who we are fighting and we have all the amunition that we could want.

"they will just carry on avoiding/evading tax more efficiently than they are now. Good luck to them."

And very many of them will pay up everthing they owe. (within reason). We must encourage our wealthy to play ball. Margeret made it very difficult for the working man by dropping more of the tax burden in his direction. Do be aware that there is always the possibility of out right political change. If we want to stay at least marginally in control of our Nations future we need a return of discipline. We don't want people to avoid Duty, that would be fatal. So yes we do expect the rich to pay a rate of tax that will make our national situation a little less dire. Britain has the right to ask a for a bit more in our hour of need. This is the big begging bowl not the little love offering tin lid. There is so much we can do if we do it together as Great Britain. Tax is wrong in principle, and we will be rid of the concept one day.
For now we need the Nation to come together to fight this awful trap labour has built for us. This 50% smokescreen of Labour is taking away our resolve to attack their debt mountain. We are going to be broke for a ruddy decade maybe longer. Meanwhile Labour has built up its empire of vested interests.
Its nation health service and its public servants. The new generation of so called professionals. It conspirators in the psychology departments, and its spin doctoring dbl speekers. We must shoat out about the cost of this edifice of inefficiency. A debt mountain beyond your wildest dreams. Millions are now meaningless?
We have get to be honest and promise that labours bloated public services are going to get a very big haircut indeed. Only Mother Russia could come to rescue us in this hour, we could of course go down the old rearming route. Anyone fancy a fresh roll of the old show of strength, bitter resolve service and value, blood and honour. We are going to have no choice but to pay our national debt off. We will have no choice but to clean up the mess that Bush & Blair built. Enter stage left deflation and further Gas bill pain. This is utterly awful and its so obviously our problem. Thank you Labour for building all those very large buildings its a shame we are unable to continue to fund many of them. Thank You for a decade of dishonest tax avoidance America. Although Brown is the reason for the mess in the UK our buddies in the USA are certainly partly in the frame as well. It turns out that Eddy George knew that our debt position was unsustainable but did not have the courage to blow the whistle. Here we went on a credit binge in the US they did it but more so and they also deferred a lot of Taxation.
They put off the pain till tomorrow and hoped they could continue to do this for ever. Brown sold us the end of boom and bust, yet they deferred a recession in the UK. The US is in the worst mess of any country on earth, and then we come in a close 2nd. This budget was certainly historic because it is absolutely clear that our problems have now caught us up and have blighted our future for a considerable period to come. The next ten years are going to see us going backwards at a steady pace.

Something nobody seems to have considered - Labour has acknowledged that the tax rise breaks their manifesto promise not to raise taxes "in the life of this parliament". They have apologised for this but only in a very downbeat way. Is it possible that the rise (which comes in next April) will in fact not be BEFORE an election, but just after???

The issue is not opposing the 50% tax on its merits or demerits, but on opposing the tax on the basis that there is yet another Labour manifesto pledge gone. If you can not trust Labour on a fundamental promise of income tax rates - what can you trust them on?

Go for the jugular. Just expose them as liars.

Why is nobody dealing with the really high marginal rate of tax suffered by the poor sods who are getting 70.5% with the loss of tax credits and standard rate tax and NI? With this we could crucify ZaNu Lie Baah: The tax the poor at 70.5%. Remember that it was GB wo argued that tax credits were just negative tax and not benefits.

And what is to prevent the same Brown Bomber (well he certainly left the economy bombed out) from declaring a state of national emergency on some pretext and just not calling an election anyway? After all, the biggest risk in this budget is that no-one will actually want to buy debt in the quantities that Brown's little Darling says they will. If they don't, then we have the ready made pretext. Let's be honest: Brown is a socialist, not a democrat.

T: Toffs.
O: Opposition (for ever?)
R: Retro: want to restore things like they always was.
Y: Yobs (Bullingdon Society).

That, I think, is what any Labour person would have wrote if they were reading this.
We have to face up to that, too. And not be Dishonest.

"Something to remember about the 50p tax rate is that it's primarily meant to be red meat for Labour backbenchers and core voters. Rightly or wrongly there is still a mood of "hang the bankers" among the electorate."

The 'hang the bankers' mood was fabricated by the press after the Brown machine desperately tried to find someone besides himself to pin the blame upon. Even the G20 protesters, dangling effigies of bankers from lampposts, got it wrong: they should have been drawing attention to Brown's shameful and duplicitous record. As the Tories must over, and over, and over, and over until that 27% that still think Brown's doing a good job (cue 'Scream') get it.

Incidentally, prziloczek, what's so awful about being a 'toff'? Where the shame in being well bred? Why are good manners considered risible? Why is oikishness celebrated? Rudeness, name-calling, bad accents and worse grammar embraced enthusiastically? Why is it de rigeur to aim down??
As I've pointed out elsewhere, the fact that the public mourned a Princess's funeral at the beginning of NuLab's reign and a revolting, racist guttersnipe at the end of it is a clear indication of how standards have gone to hell over the last twelve years.

" what's so awful about being a 'toff'?"

Nothing, for some crazy reason some people want to bring everyone down to the standard of the worse sink estate. We have a generation of pop stars who play on this. Even that Nice Lilly Allen, and that not quite so likable Kate Nash make a virtue of having an accent. As if only working class people have anything to say. Of course received English is only another accent, but it is one that most people can understand.

"Why is it de rigeur to aim down?"

Its the same nonsense that makes the Simpsons so popular. We should take the attitude of "Abusus non tollit usum ", and have no truck with these modern vandals of our culture.

Well said, Mr Warren. I would postulate (says Mara darkly) that 'dumbing down' is a control mechanism designed by this Philosopher-King-like government to subordinate utterly a vast proportion of the electorate. It is the only way in which they can gain some spurious form of superiority; and, in encouraging a War of Averages in which becoming a WAG is seen as a clever career move, the voice of the intelligensia is drowned by innit-speak.
Would that Cameron could 'do a Cromwell' and consign them all to the gutter:
It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches ...
Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Well some people are very happy about the new 50% tax rate. On the announcement of it Harriet Harman looked like she had an orgasm.

My two pence worth of slogans:

"Same Old Labour, Same Old Rubbish"
"Labour isn't working - again"

And my cut out and keep fave:

"13 years of Labour, 300 years of debt"

"...And then they could go and take their wealth-creating skills to another country for them to benefit, couldn't they?..."

Oh right! That old chestnut again.

What just like Andrew Lloyd Weber was going to "leave Britain" if Labour got in in 1997 - didn't happen did it!
It may have escaped your notice Carl, but the "wealth Creators" you seem so fond of have actually only created "wealth" for themselves - for the rest of us, they've created "debt".

So them leaving the country would be a bad thing - how exactly?

"...If they can find ways to avoid paying a penny to this government, most people's reaction would be: "Good luck to them."..."

Most 'corrupt and sleazy' people's reaction, don't you mean, Carl?

Avoiding legitimate taxation is what I'm talking about - NOT a corrupt Labour Governments use of revenue as a cash cow for ludicrious pro Labour projects like ID Cards etc.

Perhaps the nuance went over your head.

Frankly the sort of person that throws a hissy fit and threatens to leave the country to avoid tax should be told in no uncertain terms to go. They are are economic traitors who deserve nothing but contempt.Those "Lords" and "Sirs" who engage in this kind of emotional blackmail should have their honours quickly revoked.At a time like this those little children who are unwilling to share their sweeties with the other children are not very nice now are they?

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