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Disappointing statement! I thought that Sir Reg Empey had a better understanding of the Conservative Party. It seems I was wrong.

Being to the left of Labour: On issues such as ID Cards and 42 days detention is:

1: No bad thing

2: Doesn't make you left wing. It just puts you closer to the centre on one of the governments many bad ideas!

Clumsy choice of words but he is right about the broken society. There are areas of Belfast that have deprivation every bit as bad as what IDS saw in Easterhouse, working class Unionist areas were neglected even by Unionist governments at Stormont. He should have said something like "I think it needs to be borne in mind that on issues like environment and social justice, the present Conservative Party..."

Also interesting that he makes the point about how seats are lost becuase of the DUP and UUP fighting each other. I think this means that the 650 strategy will be put on the back burner and there will be agreed candidates for certain seats. I would imagine the UUP would run in South Belfast will the DUP would get a clear run in Fermangh/South Tyrone and North Belfast, all those seats are winnable for Unionists.

Sir Reg clearly has a mountain to climb in convincing his grass roots that partnership with the Conservatives will chime harmoniously with their own political aspirations, even survival.

As a contribution to assisting the 'New Force' in finding its feet, CCHQ should dispatch to Belfast someone with a bit of communications nouse, or get used to cringing.

"Sir Reg Empey, has made an intervention that will surely unnerve many Conservatives."

Why would an old man being wrong unnerve me?

Are the Conservatives even a party anymore, they are certainly not an Opposition merely Labour Camp Followers.

Is this really the main topic for debate on the morning Sky News are trumpeting that Lloyds is now 77 per cent Government controlled.

Where in heavens name is your OUTRAGE, regardless of whether it be from left, right or smack in the middle?

David, maybe he is right? In my view he is, and just maybe you are wrong. And less of the old man please - the folly of youth springs to mind!

In response to DJT | March 07, 2009 at 10:40:

Opposition to the Labour Government's ID Cards scheme is not necessarily a 'left wing' stance.

I contend that it is a right wing stance, because it defie the ID cards scheme to limit personal individual freedom.

Often a hallmark of left wing ideology put in to practice.

Oh dear.

A lot of people had deep reservations about this partnership with the UUP. Electorally it has been all but destroyed in Northern Ireland and it lacks real credibility.

While the UUP can only benefit from its association with the Conservatives, the Conservatives could be dragged downwards by this relationship. The cracks are appearing already.

Even its sole MP, Lady Sylvia Hermon, often sides with Labour in the Commons. David Cameron may feel there was method in this madness, but I for one and struggling to see it.

Last sentence should read "...but I for one *am* struggling to see it." More haste less speed, Sharp.

"Sir Reg Empey, has made an intervention that will surely unnerve many Conservatives."

Why should someone being wrong unnerve me? I'm with Jason Hughes - Conservatives stand for personal freedom, not state interference in every aspect of out lives. Labour stands for interference disguised as "nannying".

Jason Hughes @ 11:33

Apologies if my argument didnt make this as clear as I thought but that was exactly my point!

I said being to the left of Labour policy (therefore more central) on that issue. In no way did I say that makes it actually left wing!

This was the crux of my argument against what Sir Reg said! Being to the left of Labour on an issue still doesnt make our policy left wing.

Hope that was clearer?

I assume he's after the left wing Unionist vote.

This is the first sign that the alliance may not work with the UUP.

Right and left are much less meaningful than these distinctions:

Localist V Centralist

Libertarian V Authoritarian

National Interest V Liberal Interventionism

Sceptic V Utopian

Jamie Dowling:
"Conservatives stand for personal freedom, not state interference in every aspect of out lives."
Do they? Please identify two or three substantive ways - as opposed to vapid sound-bite gestures - in which they have demonstrated this.

How dozy can a man get?

"On a number of issues it is clearly to the left of Labour."

On the one hand Stalinism is considered Left of centre and libertarianism is described as right wing. In which case getting rid of ID cards is a right wing action.

"Right and left are much less meaningful than these distinctions:

Localist V Centralist

Libertarian V Authoritarian

National Interest V Liberal Interventionism

Sceptic V Utopian"
Q.F.T.

Who gave a knighthood to this cretin?

"Sir" Reg seems to come at this from the "Left wing good, right wing bad" standpoint.

If there are people within Unionism who don't like Conservatism, then they need to be politely told to f*** off. This includes "Lady" Sylvia Hermon, who seems to have spent the last five years cosying up to New Labour and needs to be told to either get on board with the programme or get lost.

I thought the whole idea of this merger was to offer a mainstream, non-sectarian Conservative choice to everyone in Northern Ireland, not to bend our principles in the hope of picking up enough socialist-unionist votes to give us three or four extra seats?

The New Force - NF - an unfortunate acronym, Jonathan.

This alliance will fall apart as they have already fought over the logo and the name. How will they agree on policy, when the UUP Leader, Sir Reg Empty, thinks that the Tories are left-wing?

Jonathan I was a little mystfied by your piece and thus by others comments which resulted from it. So I read Sir Reg's views in News Letter - the link you kindly provided.

Sir Reg writes enthusiatically about David Cameron's intervention in Northern Ireland and its likely consequences.

May I encourage others to read what Sir Reg has written and dare I say not take their lead from soundbites.

Perhaps Malcolm, you can identify to me ways that the current "government" have demonstrated they are committed to personal freedom? I see very little evidence of that.

I have written extensively about Labour failure, obsession with surveillance and worship of the database state and interference and yet to receive any substantive replies proving me wrong. Click on my name to read my blog. I don't see your name linking to anything so there is nothing to identify your stance on any matters.

For over a year I have been involved in the campaign against the intrusiveness and claimed legality of Phorm, its use by major ISPs and that I expected this "government" to covet and then use the technology itself. Which came to pass. It is Conservatives in Westminster and the European Parliament who have responded positively to my writings, not Labour. It is a Conservative peer who is part of that campaign, not a Labour one.

A commitment to scrap ID cards is a major commitment to personal liberties. A commitment to prevent the misuse of surveillance powers by local authorities is also to be welcomed.

I am looking forward to the National Security Green Paper and I will be critical of any provisions which smack of the surveillance and database states that this "government" is so obsessed with.

Jamie Dowling:
” Perhaps Malcolm, you can identify to me ways that the current "government" have demonstrated they are committed to personal freedom?”
I can’t imagine what makes you think I support the present government of loathsome crypto-Stalinist reptiles for whom death is too good.
”I have written extensively about Labour failure…” etc etc
Congratulations. This doesn’t amount to evidence of any significant, substantive pro-individual measures by the Conservatives.
”For over a year I have been involved in the campaign … It is Conservatives in Westminster and the European Parliament who have responded positively to my writings, not Labour. It is a Conservative peer who is part of that campaign, not a Labour one…”
Big deal. Words are cheap, as demonstrated every day by politicians of all flavours. The Tories are in opposition – they’ll say anything. Proves nothing.
”A commitment to scrap ID cards is a major commitment to personal liberties.”
Gee whiz, how radical, how dramatic, how thought provoking! A facile promise (actions speak louder than words, see above), merely saying they’re going to do away with a gigantic, egregiously nasty threat by Labour which no-one remotely concerned with liberty could countenance in a thousand years can hardly be regarded as a “major commitment” unless one is unnaturally starry-eyed.
”A commitment to prevent the misuse of surveillance powers by local authorities is also to be welcomed.”
Cor! Another smasher… Sorry, but this is utterly pathetic: you haven’t even begun to demonstrate any substantive commitment to political liberty and the freedom of the individual. Unless and until they carry through genuinely sweeping, radical cuts in the oppressive legislation, bureaucracy and taxation that cripple the people of this country, one must regard the Tories as barely distinguishable, in their concern for the individual, from the other lot.

I think it hurts but it's absolutely true - the Conservatives aren't right-wing in any significant way. Social policy is largely a muted acceptance of the implementation of left-wing and non-traditional values; the overall appeal is that they would be slightly less bad than Labour and more competent at managing things. Whether they'd actually be more-right wing than their pronouncements indicate if they get in - ie when they don't have to refrain from saying things just to get elected - is the big question. The one saving grace is that they couldn't be any worse than Labour...

So the Conservative party is "no longer a right-wing party in any real sense of that term".

I am so pleased!

I have always regarded myself as a radical, liberal conservative. Is that a contradiction - or even several contradictions - in one term? I don't think so. In fact, I think most conservatives I know display all three characteristics in some way.

And, "right wing" is now a term of abuse. The BNP is "far right" according to the BBC. It is indeed extreme. It is very socialist and very illiberal in economic policy, wanting to raise state spending on monopoly services and being against free trade, and it is very nationalist in its social policy, actively promoting different rules for different groups of the UK population, based on race and origin. If that is "right wing" then I am very happy not to be.

The Labour party is pushing forward with ID cards, 400,000 will be issued this year to migrant workers, raising the prospect of "Papers, please" policing. They are also pushing on with the detention of suspects without charge for 42 days. These are both very right wing and I oppose both of them.

In social policy, the Conservative party has a very "liberal" education policy. It will provide financial support for all parents, irrespective of their earnings, which is certainly a long way from the "safety net" policies usually seen as right-wing. It will then allow, even encourage, any and all who wish to teach children to come forward and seek to win some of that business - very radical - though not with a profit motive, so perhaps that bit is even a bit socialist?

Conservative housing policy ideas centre around encouraging people to be good tenants by offering them free slices of equity in their home, effectively giving away taxpayer's assets! Is that right wing? Hardly, but it is conservative, rewarding people who do the right thing and doing what works to help fix a mess.

I'm very, very happy that the Conservative party is "no longer a right-wing party in any real sense of that term". I'd like to think it never was.

"And, "right wing" is now a term of abuse. The BNP is "far right" according to the BBC. It is indeed extreme. It is very socialist and very illiberal in economic policy, wanting to raise state spending on monopoly services and being against free trade, and it is very nationalist in its social policy, actively promoting different rules for different groups of the UK population, based on race and origin. If that is "right wing" then I am very happy not to be."

Very well said, John! I agree 100% with the rest of your post too.

I am sick of Conservatism being presented in a negative light in the media. The word Tory has always had a pejorative ring but when BBC presenters utter the word the sneer in their voices is clearly discernible.The word Conservative is only ever used on the BBC in a negative context. To refer to someone or a viewpoint as Conservative is the ultimate condemnation, rendering that person or thing totally beyond the pale and outside any civilised discourse or discussion.

This attitude of intolerance and bigotry is all the more offensive when research has shown that to be Conservative is a sign of highly civilised and evolved dispoisition. Conservatives love their children and take better care of them than liberals,are far less liekly to get divorced,take drugs,commit crime and anti social behaviour or end up in jail.If a survey of prisoner's politcal views were taken it is almost certain that the majority would be of a left persuasion which is why the Liberal party wants to give them the vote.They would hardly be putting forward such an outrageous proposal if prisoners were Conservative in their beliefs!

Conservatives are often charged with lack of compassion but this is just another egregious misrepresentation and slur.The difference betweeen liberals and Conservatives is that liberals have compassion for evil people whereas Conservatives have compassion for good people. Quite a big difference when yiu think about it.

The only criticism of Conservatives I have is that they are too prone to take such misrepresentation lying down and that they are not robust enough in their defence of freedom which is under systematic attack from liberalism. Conservatism is about a small State and defence of individual rights which means minimal taxation and interference from the State in the affairs of the individual.Rather than standing on these core principles Conservatives are too apt to mimic Liberals in moral panic and promise salvation via the State which is a betrayal of everything Conservatism is supposed to stand for. People are crying out for a champion of freedom from the bully State and a populist Conservative party would wipe the floor with the liberal alternatives if only the Conservatives would wake up to this fact and seize the day.

the present Conservative Party is no longer a right-wing party in any real sense of that term

I was under the impression that David Cameron had spent the first two years of his leadership trying to persuade the electorate in general of precisely that.

As a Northern Ireland unionist who very much supports the alliance between UUP and Conservatives I would plead with Conservatives throughout the UK to be careful in their approach to the new alliance. The UUP has a deeply entrenched support base in Northern Ireland and has had to exist through very dark days indeed. During the 'troubles'there were many points of disagreement between UUP and our Conservatives friends. The Anglo Irish Agreement was imposed by Baroness Thatcher's governemnt and was resented by most unionists. However I would hope that most Conservatives would support Sir Reg Empey in his attempt to modernise unionism and create a 'right of centre' political force which can transcend the old sectarian politics which has dogged Northern Ireland for so long. Already many previously 'non voting' catholic people are supporting the new Conservative/Unionist alliance so I would appeal for sensitivity and understanding and indeed careful words so as not to damage the prospects for a thriving secular Conservative and Unionist political party in Northern Ireland. I know that many will be fed up with the special pleading from here but I would ask all to give this a chance.

Yeah one of the Tories with real balls who takes on the orange order and the whole rotting rancid sectarian sickness of ulster unionism is hung out to dry by the tories. clearly cameron's extremist speech to the uup conference last year was no flash in the pan.

the number of northern catholics and nationalists who will vote for UCUNF will be less than zero.

rather than "modernising" northern ireland you guys are looking to go back to the 1950's when irish nationalism was marginalised and ignored.

No, I'm sorry but the alliance with the UUP is doomed to failure, offers nothing real for the Conservatives and now seems to be reinforcing the perception amongst many actual Conservatives that the Cameron party is just a wet, weak, lefty excuse for an opposition that only appears popular in comparison to a deeply hated Labour government.

I'm really not sure that Empey is a Conservative or knows too much about Conservative policy. Just yesterday the Conservatives fired one of the Conservatives in Northern Ireland's most able people - Jeff Peel - for resigning from the joint committee with the UUP. Jeff had the courage to speak out about the fact that the UUP was entering this deal just to get its grubby hands on Conservative money and campaigning talent. Mr Peel should be reinstated immediately. A big apology is also due.

Well Dub and WHC thank you for your clear analytical vision. Your obvious anti-unionist rant barely deserves a reply apart from the fact that you are factually wrong, not that this will bother you. There are indeed northern ireland catholics who have actually joined the Conservative party on hearing about the alliance and if you bother to check this with NI Conservatives you will find this correct.'Rotting rancid sectarianism' might better be applied to your obvious anti unionist bias.

Karl Popper defined those who would do (R)right for society thus:
'he [the politician] will be aware that perfection, if at all attainable, is far distant, and that every generation of men, and therefore also the living, have a claim ... [He will] accordingly adopt the method of searching for, and fighting against, the greatest and most urgent evils of society, rather than searching for, and fighting for, its greatest ultimate good.'
Herein lies the fundamental distinction between left and right, Utopia and Rationalism: the former would seek to wipe society clean and start again regardless of the pain in order to create perfection upon earth; the ultimate aesthetic with the greatest canvas upon which to work. The latter would work with what was already there, tearing down that which caused pain and suffering and was held in place only by illogicality to, piece by peace, build a 'liveable' world.
Long has the latter been a Tory aim. To conflate it with socialism is to condemn it to the uneasy path of the Third Way.

Piece by piece, even (l. XII)

I have to say I agree with the comment Jason Hughes made earlier about the Conservatives stance on civil liberties, notably 42 days and ID cards.

Protecting the individuals right to liberty is a core tenant of right wing ideology - protection from the state and the right to peruse one's own interests without government interfering. After all it was Margaret Thatcher who said "The fundamental thing that the whole philosophy of the conservative party is based upon: the freedom of the individual".

This is what I believe, and although I do see Cameron as a slide to the centre, I am very pleased that the Conservatives have stood as they do on these issues, and only wish their commitment to civil liberties grows stronger with time.

Reg "Empty" is a relic of a washed out party and he didn't appeal to the good people of Belfast East last time he stood in 2005. If he was a dog you would take him to the vet on a one way journey as an act of kindness.

I hope the Conservative Party wakes up and realises that it is folly to tie itself to the corpse of the once mighty UUP. If it has to ally itself with any Ulster party it ought to be the DUP but is such an alliance really needed anyway? Margaret Thatcher did not need one to form a very effective Government, nor did Blair need to ally himself to the SDLP.

Spot on Sir Reg!!

Shocking news fron Amtrim makes this all seem very petty indeed. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7930837.stm

The labels don't really matter. The ideas matter. Anybody can see that most of our ideas are still to the right. The fact that some might be less so isn't important. There is no rule that a party must make ALL its policies to one side of the scale. How limiting and pointless that would be!

The political left have some good ideas and some good people. Only a real party zealot would deny that. Most of us are Conservative because, broadly, we are to the right, as broadly, so are the Conservatives. I doubt there are many of us who support *every* new Conservative idea or deny every Labour one.

I'm afraid that Sir Reg Empey is correct. The Party ceased to be a right wing one when it had the collective madness to elect Cameron as its leader. Now in so far as it still has any real principles remaining at all, and for all intents and purposes, it is now absolutely no different to New Labour on social, fiscal or foreign policies - all of which are left wing inclined. It no longer merits the support of true Tory voters who, alas, have nowhere at all to place their X.

Yesterday's outrage in County Antrim pushes the main topic of this thread onto the back burner. Just when we thought it was safe to go back into the Province, we are shown that there are still those who prefer the bullet to the ballot.

Much as it may be very tempting the Army and the NIPS (former RUC) should not go in heavy handed, which is not to say the the cowards who are responsible should get off scot free.

Instead this it the time to call in a favour from Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. Their IRA associates are certain to know who is to blame and where they can be located. I am sure a word in the right ears from these two gentlemen would resolve this matter and result in the elimination of those who murdered the soldiers which would serve as a stark warning to others who would copy them.

We need not worry about drifting to the left I believe. It seems clear to me, that if right wing organisations get started the snow ball effect will eventually ignite the country. Its would take only a person willing to speak clearly for the folk and be careful to be inclusive of the wealthy, to run away with Britain PLC. Its this very limited support we want from the state, if we are going to set the course of this Nation. People need jobs and we have the Nations ability to produce, its only a lack of will that holds us back imprisoning great talents , with half measured interventions. We are all feeling the pinch so we have two choices either we simply abandoned much of our cultural desire for wealth, or we try to find a way for our money to enrich not entrap. We need a folk movement but the pop world only knows product. Anyone with an eye to an investment would be wise to find and acquire the services of young talented folks. Its only by getting started with the revolution that it can possible come to fruition. So dam those who imagine us lefty's, because we hate their socialist dogma with a vengeance.

Anybody can see that most of our ideas are still to the right.

I can't. Unless you'e idea of "right" is seriously different to mine (and I suspect most people's).

The fact that some might be less so isn't important.

Yes, it is. UK PLC is in serious trouble, hadn't you noticed? Feebleness and half-heartedness are not virtues.


There is no rule that a party must make ALL its policies to one side of the scale. How limiting and pointless that would be!

The political left have some good ideas and some good people. Only a real party zealot would deny that.

What?!? The UK currently has the most incompetent, wasteful, deceitful, hypocritical, anti-democratic, the most morally, financially and intellectually corrupt government probably since the Civil War, and possibly ever. I cannot imagine what you personally might feel you have in common with them, or what you think anybody else should.

Most of us are Conservative because, broadly, we are to the right, as broadly, so are the Conservatives. I doubt there are many of us who support *every* new Conservative idea or deny every Labour one.

Go on, then, produce a few Labour ideas you approve of. Then, once you've enlightened us, you can go and join your new chums. You might find their ideas about cross-party consensus a bit of an eye-opener.

All that prostitooting and promising by young gullible David and where did it get him and his party?
The older you get the wiser you get.

Sir Reg's piece was a response to the taunts by the DUP following publication about some of Jeff Peel's views. On the eve of Sir Reg's piece, Jeff Peel resigned from the Joint Committee and asserted that the UUP was not fit for partnership with the Conservatives.

I wont go into the issues raised by Jeffrey Peel as that is outside the scope of comment on Sir Reg's article. The article was more revealing about Sir Reg's grasp of UK politics than you have highlighted.

If you examine the article further, you will notice that at no time, when he used the word “conservative”, was he making a reference to policy or conservatism except in the place that you highlighted.

As long as I have followed politics (including the time of Margaret Thatcher) the Conservatives have always been a right of centre party. The nearest they came to becoming right wing was when Enoch Powell nearly became leader in the 60s. He ended up joining the Ulster Unionists!

I have followed the utterences of Sir Reg for the last 6 months. Not once has Sir Reg said publicly that he is a Conservative. If David Cameron has said that he is a Unionist, why cant Sir Reg say that he is a Conservative?

The article highlights ignorance which I know to exist amongst the membership of UUP about Conservative political philosophy and the dynamic relating to normal left / right politics. It touches the heart of what we want to achieve in Northern Ireland (normal left/right politics) and raises questions about the fitness of the UUP to represent the Conservatives in Northern Ireland.

In the interests of transparency, I am an Ulster Unionist.

Sir Reg's comments are not - contrary to Jonathan's statement - designed to placate Labour-inclined members of the UUP. Such a view displays a staggering ignorance of politics and society in the regions. 'Right-wing' is not a description that garners significant electoral support in the regions. It is in the regions that Thatcherism killed-off Conservatism.

Sir Reg was indicating that Conservatism has changed - and changed in a real manner that will appeal to voters in the regions, evolving beyond the dry orthodoxy of Thatcherism.

Considering one of Sir Reg's critics on this list has invoked Enoch Powell, we might ask ourselves who exactly is outside the mainstream of contemporary Conservatism.

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