The Conservative Party's exit from the EPP would seem a step closer

3.45pm update: Shadow Europe minister Mark Francois has confirmed the news with the following statement to ConservativeHome:

"This afternoon William Hague, Timothy Kirkhope MEP and I met with Joseph Daul in Strasbourg. The meeting was amicable and during the course of it, we confirmed to M. Daul our long-standing intention to leave the EPP and establish a new grouping in the Euroepan Parliament after the 2009 elections."

Tremendous news.

---

With what would appear to be extremely prescient timing, last night's Newsnight featured a film about progress on David Cameron's pledge to take Conservative MEPs out of the federalist EPP in the European Parliament.

Their reporter, David Grossman, has written about the issue on the BBC website and you can watch his film via the BBC iPlayer (35 minutes in).

French MEP Jospeh Daul, the chairman of the EPP, was interviewed on the programme and said that "we have now reached the point where David Cameron really does need to decide" [whether the Conservatives definitely will pull out and, if so, when].

Well, it looks like he will have his answer very soon. William Hague is today travelling to Strasbourg, where he will meet M. Daul, and I hear that it is his intention officially to give him notice of the party's intention to leave the group at the end of this term of the European Parliament, before the elections in June. He will be accompanied by shadow Europe minister, Mark Francois, and they will also be having meetings with the Conservative MEPs and a variety of putative partners for the a new political grouping.

I will post any further details when I have them.

ConservativeHome's views about the EPP are well-documented and the party's departure from it cannot come a moment too soon.

Jonathan Isaby

Comments

[michael mcgough]

I hope that when the Conservatives attain power they make faster progress in all areas than they have on this issue.

[David_at_Home]

The Tories could, of course, join the Independence/Democracy Group in the EU Parliament:

http://indemgroup.eu/

Alternatively you, Dear Reader, could short circuit the process by voting for UKIP in June!

[Ashley Fox]

I am very pleased to hear this. This sooner this decision is taken the better.

Ashley Fox

[Joseph Sheedy]

Splitting from the Federalist EPP cannot come too soon, let's hope the new eurosceptic conservative group can have a strong influence over the European Parliament.

[Felix Bungay]

Splitting from the EEP should of been done years ago. The question now is what group the conservatives will join having left the EEP.

[Mr Angry]

If I am to vote Conservative in June then this departure needs to be set in stone before the Euros.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

I am a pro-EPP Conservative. I would have wanted us to have stayed with our colleagues in the EPP. The Newsnight clip last night was an attempt to re-open Tory divisions on the subject. Typical New Labour/BBC mischief-making! I was very reassured by Geoffrey Van Orden's remarks that we will form a group with centre-right people who are not political or social rejects and extremists. I can only wish Geoffrey and Hague the best of luck. I hope we leave the EPP on friendly terms and consider them under 'Plan B' if this new venture doesn't work out. I am sure that they would be happy to welcome us back at some point in the future, where we sit with them and benefit from all the perks that go with sitting in such a large group, whilst keeping our own Whip.

[Hawkeye]

Given that Libertas is standing in 27 countries, if they get a few MEPs then they could form a new grouping with the conservatives. MEPs spread over a number of countries seems to be the primary consideration in forming a new group.

Whilst I would rather leave the EU, if an internal reform process can be started I'll take that as second prize.

[Iain]

"I am a pro-EPP Conservative"

Seeing what the EPP stands for, it would seem to be a contradiction in terms claiming to be a Conservative and supporting the EPP .

[ToryBlog.com]

I certainly hope that ConHome publishes a copy of the resignation later, just to be sure that it is as cut-and-dried as we would hope!

[pp]

I don't want the EU to try to reform - the process will take years, it will be expensive and the process will be an excuse to keep things are they are for now, and in the end it will make no difference.

If the EU had any chance of working, then it would be would be doing so by now.

Don't fall into the 'reform' trap - it is just an excuse to do nothing,

If the conservatives had already left the EPP and put the framework in place for a new grouping, then prospective MEPs from other countries could already be campaigning on the new group ticket.

Instead of looking to the new MEPs they have been looking to the old ones -- but the revolting party list system (which really must go) must encourage this... what is the re-election rate of sitting MEPs?

[Chris Palmer]

Of course the real issue was never about whether the Conservatives sat within the European People's Party or not but whether Britain remained within the European Union.

The Conservative party continues to pursue its ridiculous slogan of being in Europe (by which they mean the EU) and not being run by Europe (again meaning the EU).

As someone far more intelligent than I pointed out, it is like claiming that you can be in Wormwood Scrubs and not run by Wormwood Scrubs. The fact of the matter is that this is impossible. You're either in it and run by it or you leave - it is as simple as that.

[pp]

p.s. Well done to the leadership to get this moving -- it has been rather a long time coming.

[Denis Cooper]

So, Justin Hinchcliffe, your federalist inclinations are so powerful that you'd have no problem if Conservative MEPs joined forces with neo-fascists in the cause of EU integration?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_hannan/blog/2009/02/25/italian_neofascists_to_join_epp_now_who_are_the_extremists

You make me sick; not so much because of your federalism, if it was honestly expressed, but because of your constant, calculated attempts to deceive.

Basically, you're a traitor to your own people.

Or maybe you're just naive and ignorant - maybe you even prefer to remain ignorant - and have no idea what you're saying when you write:

"I am a pro-EPP Conservative"

Well, have a look at their bloody website, and you can find out what your chums want:

http://www.epp.eu/hoofdpagina.php?hoofdmenuID=1

"The EPP is committed to a federal Europe".

So where do you stand on that then?

That the British Parliament and government should be subordinate to some federal European Parliament and government?

If so, please make that absolutely clear to the British people during election campaigns; don't disguise and hide your true beliefs, make them plain.

And then see what reaction you get.

Tory MEPs should never have been in, or in any way associated with, the EPP.

Back in 1999, the Tories got enough MEPs to form their own officially recognised British Conservative group, under the rules then in place, and that's what they should have done.

Since then, it's been made more and more difficult for MEPs to form a new group and get official recognition - some details in my comment at the end here on Daniel Hannan's blog, last July:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_hannan/blog/2008/07/09/european_parliament_bars_eurosceptic_groups?com _num=20&com_pg=2

There's more than a slight suspicion that one of the main objectives in doing this has been to keep the Tory MEPs locked in the EPP-ED.

[Justin Hinchcliffe (Traitor For Being a Pro-European Conservative!)]

Rant over, now? (-:

[Michael Heaver]

Believe it when I see it.

[michael mcgough]

Whether still in the EPP or not in 2010 Cameron will NEVER deliver us a referendum.
Either the Irish will bow to the pr4essure being applied to them and vote yes to Lisbon second time around or the treaty will be abandoned.William may scweam and scweam but that'll be it.
For Dave it'll be run by Europe as ever.

[Ted Baker]

let me guess - they will rejoin the EPP in July!!

All this, to make Nigel loose a bet, and allow the tories to pull the wool over voters eyes in June!!!

[Gospel of Enoch]

"Seeing what the EPP stands for, it would seem to be a contradiction in terms claiming to be a Conservative and supporting the EPP ." Ted Heath would be proud of you :-(

[John Scott]

This is a bizarre decision - it is the wrong thing to do at precisely the wrong time. Everyone knows that David Cameron made this promise to gain euro-sceptic votes in the 2005 leadership election.

We are now operating in a completely different political and economic environment. As the world comes together for the G20 summit in London to repair the international financial architecture, are we really proposing to withdraw from the only serious group in the European Parliament that gives the Conservative voice a chance to be heard?

As for Daniel Hannan's comment on Newsnight that he can now speak on a wider range of issues as an independent, it isn't what you say that is important, it is the power and influence you wield. Inside the EPP British Conservatives have been influential in reversing protectionist and anti-British policy in areas such as MIFID, the practical implementation of the single market.

Without a British Conservative voice, the EPP will be weaker, and the British voice in Europe will be weaker still. That is why business and trade unions are united in opposing this policy position. It is against the British national interest to withdraw from the EPP and we will live to regret the decision to do so.

[ToryBlog.com]

JS @ 14:33,

Cameron made few bankable pledges during his election campaign, so it is fair to conclude that he only made the unequivocal EPP withdrawal one as he saw it as vital to remaining in the leadership race.

The pro-EPP'ers may try to play this down, but Cameron is nothing if not a politician who seeks not to be pinned down so firmly, so clearly his leadership bid depended on this pledge.

To fail to deliver would be all-out civil war, which in itself makes me suspicious as so little has been done to form a new group to date.

I would not get too excited yet, I am sure there will be more twists and turns with the terms of the letter allowing the Tories to remain aligned to the EPP in some way until they form their new group etc etc.

[Andrew Marshall]

I'm also a pro-EPP Conservative. This will be a very sad day if it goes ahead, particularly after all the work in the early 1990s by Christopher Prout and others to get us into the European centre-right mainstream. But I retain some hope that in the next European Parliament common sense and a strong sense of the British national instinct might still prevail!

Cllr Andrew Marshall

[Deborah]

Hurray.

[John Scott]

I don't doubt that David relied on it for votes, but that doesn't detract from the fact that our withdrawal will diminish the British national interest in Europe. It is at this point that pragmatism should prevail.

Much as I admire the tenacity of the smaller right wing parties of central and eastern europe, with whom we are now in discussion, they will not be critical to the debate about the future of globalisation, corporate governance and financial regulation. And neither will we if this policy is implemented.

It is about time we stopped treating Europe as some kind of second rate student debating society and started treating our colleagues with respect and delivering the change for Britain that we can only achieve by participating in the arguments, and winning them.

[Deborah]

"and delivering the change for Britain that we can only achieve by participating in the arguments, and winning them"

..that's a joke, yes?

[Denis Cooper]

PERSONAL ABUSE OVERWRITTEN.

[Freeborn John]

John Scott: Withdrawing from the EU would reduce British influence in Europe, but it would give us greater room to pursue our interest in the wider world which is becoming increasingly important. Take for example trade negotiations in the WTO where Peter Mandelson ended up negotiating in the interests of a Continental protectionist agricultural lobby. Had we been outside the EU a British trade minister could have openly opposed agricultural tarrifs and negotiated directly in the interests of British exporters of services or industrial products.

The goal is not to maximise influence within the EU but rather to advance the national interest. More often than not the EU silences the British voice in order to advocate a position which is in the interest of the Franco-German alliance but contrary to our own.

[John Scott]

Denis - if I believed in a "European federation" I would say so.

My position is very clear: I am ruthlessly pro-British and I believe it is in our national interest to be in the EU as our largest trading partner and closest geographical allies.

As a member of the club I believe in leading it, and that means in real political terms being members (preferably in leadership positions) of the largest grouping of centre-right parties in Europe. That is how Europe works.

As members of the EPP, British Conservative MEPs have directly influenced EU regulation on the single market, trade and the environment - to name just three areas.

With the greatest respect, Denis, you are not doing justice to your so-called patriotism. You espouse patriotic language, then run away from every debate, every forum and every partnership where your arguments might be tested. Patriotism is about standing up and being counted - not hiding behind a union jack, afraid to fight your corner with people who might not share your views.

[John Scott]

Freeborn: I am not persuaded by your argument. On trade, particularly, the world is dividing into powerful blocs, the EU being one - the Americas and Asia being the other two global forces.

Sadly, the days when representations from individual countries counted for anything (apart from the US and China currently) are long gone.

[Michael Heaver]

Any reason why you couldn't just leave tomorrow, if Team Cameron is serious?

[Man in a Shed]

Good news - because there's no way I'm voting for the EPP or parties that support it again.

( And that by definition would stop me canvassing etc )

[Mr Angry]

As ever the pro Federalists seem unable to marshal any genuinely convincing arguments at all for staying in either the EPP, or the EU for that matter. Also as ever they seem to think that Cameron ought to be encouraged to break an unequivocal promise to his party, one that caused many of us to vote for him in the first place, and/or engage in blatant dishonesty by means of pretending to leave the EPP now and then returning later.

So therefore the Eurofederalists clearly demonstrate the blatant dishonesty and contempt for democracy and hard promises made to an electorate that is at the heart of what is so very very wrong about the whole Federalist project and its aims in the first place.

[Freeborn John]

John Scott: Your logic of power blocks only works if the block speaks with one voice AND uses that voice to represent an interest which is common to all members. However the economic interests of the 27 member states of the European Union are not the same at all. In particular, with agriculture representing less than 1% of British GDP it is clearly not in the UK interest that the EU speaks with one voice in the WTO to preserve the CAP system of agricultural tariffs and quotas, and in doing so scuppers a trade deal that might have been beneficial to the services and industrial sectors that represent 99% of British GDP.

The same logic applies to defence, foreign policy and all the other areas where the EU wants to speak on our behalf. If the EU speaks with one voice, then i hope you will accept that it is inevitable that some national voices are going to have to be overruled and silenced on the world stage. I trust you will also acknowledge that there are many on the EU who think that France and Germany have a god-given right to say what is in the European interest such that it is the UK voice which all too often is supressed so that the EU can speak as one.

[Felixstowe Fiddler]

Come on, it's make your mind up time. The Conservatives cannot have it all ways. Either play a full, pro active role in Europe or get out altogether and try to fend on our own. There is no half-way house and Haig, Francois et al must realise that deep down.
I'm a Europe supporter who has had enough of the current "project" - for want of another word. If Cameron at the start of the the General election pledges a referednum on renegotaing the various treaties, it would wrong foor Labour and expose the Lib Dems for what they are - federalists who are scared to tell the voters the truth.

[Tapestry]

Prepare for the BBC anti-Conservative backlash.

John Scott. is Asia a global force? How interesting. Have you ever been there?

[RichardJ]

Why don't we join the conservative Union for Europe of the Nations?

[Tommy]

"On trade, particularly, the world is dividing into powerful blocs, the EU being one - the Americas and Asia being the other two global forces. "

Remind me who is president of the american commission?

Name an MAP?

Oh wait, these questions can't be answered because what you say is complete BS.

I know that some people find this difficult to understand, but it is localism, and not supra-nationalism that is the future.

People like John Scott have had their day, the future belongs to me!

[albion]

""I was very reassured by Geoffrey Van Orden's remarks that we will form a group with centre-right people who are not political or social rejects and extremists""

Recent poster.

"Extremist"?

The whole EU project is "extremist".

They have usurped national parliaments & peoples to steal countries & immerse them into a federalist superstate with a Communist called Barroso as "President"

How much more extremist can these other fellows you disparage be?

Are they like me, believers in the nation state & the soverignty of their own parliaments & like me a non practicising Conservative equivalent voter in their country who is sick & tired of the double talking from the right wing on Europe?

Am I an extremist to you now?

Get it straight - the EU & its supporters are the extremists, & it is Orwellian of you to imply that dissent from the Kommon Purpose makes a person an extremist.

Regards

[johnC]

'benefit from all the perks that go with sitting in such a large group'

Justin, if you think that the thought of MEPs benefiting from perks is going to appeal to anyone, where have you been for the last year ? 'Whoops-a-daisy !'

[John Scott]

Freeborn: I agree with you in the main.

Tapestry: yes. And by way of comparison with our economy China and India are set to grow by 7-9% this year and next. The UK economy is set to contract by anything up to 5%. If anything the shift to the east will become more prominent in the years to come.

[Denis Cooper]

John Scott.

"Denis - if I believed in a "European federation" I would say so."

Fine; so you believe that the British Parliament is, and should remain, the supreme legal authority for the United Kingdom.

So why do you allow the leaders of your party to deny that legal supremacy, as they did almost exactly a year ago?

http://broganblog.dailymail.co.uk/2008/03/cameron-hit-by.html

" ... few spotted the vote on New Clause 9, proposed by Bill Cash, which would prevent changes in the Treaty being used in British courts to challenge the supremacy of Parliament. Mr Cameron asked his troops to abstain, but 40 ignored him and voted in favour, including 12 from the new intake."

"UPDATE: A robustly euro-sceptic MP has just shown me the text messages he received from the Chief Whip's office yesterday evening. The first, at 19.17, gave Tory MPs a green-light to go home by telling them there would be "no further official votes". The division on Mr Cash's clause was called seven minutes later, at 19.24."

Any sensible justification for that?

"My position is very clear: I am ruthlessly pro-British and I believe it is in our national interest to be in the EU as our largest trading partner and closest geographical allies."

Nonsense.

How can you posssibly be "ruthlessly pro-British", and also believe that "it is in our national interest to be in the EU", when the EU is explicitly based on the principle that "our national interest", and the national interest of every EU member state, must be ruthlesssly subordinated ito the perceived common EU interest?

"As a member of the club ... "

Oh, so this is just a "club", is it? Like a local gold club?

Oh yes, I see today that my local golf club has started to issue its own currency, and is discussing whether it should raise its own army.

"I believe in leading it"

So when do you intend to start?

" and that means in real political terms being members (preferably in leadership positions) of the largest grouping of centre-right parties in Europe."

Which grouping of centre-right parties happens to be committed to the establishment of a European federation, which you say you don't believe in, because you're "ruthlessly pro-British"

"That is how Europe works."

You mean, but very carefully do not say, that is how the EU, which is nothing more than a misguided, and disastrously flawed, international organisation established by treaty between its sovereign member states, works.

"As members of the EPP, British Conservative MEPs have directly influenced EU regulation on the single market, trade and the environment - to name just three areas."

Oh, come on; you know very well that the British Conservative MEPs have time and time again been sucked into supporting EU measures which are patently against British interests, however they may try to spin it.

"With the greatest respect, Denis, you are not doing justice to your so-called patriotism. You espouse patriotic language, then run away from every debate"

Well, come debate with me; and let's see who runs away first.

"Patriotism is about standing up and being counted - not hiding behind a union jack"

Then I take it that you'd completely remove the British flag from the Conservative leaflets for the EU Parliament elections, and instead display the emblem of the EPP-ED - a heart enclosing the EU's ring of stars?

No, I thought not.

[pp]

Maybe I am cynicised by labours 'not-promisies' I am not sure what to make of that statement.

Camerons promise to leave the EPP was not conditional on a new grouping being established.

In the new EU parliament can we (actually not 'we' I am not currently a member) be assured that tory MEPs will not be members of the EPP?

Once that is cleared up, the next question is how long will tory meps be unattached before they can establish a brand-new grouping? What will this new grouping be called? and what principals will it adhere to?

[rugfish]

"Giving our intention" isn't so hot a think to get all steamed up about.

We should be out NOW. In fact last year we should have been out.

Waiting until after the elections is like a political con trick and I for one have had enough of those.

No more will I stick my name against some guy who says what his 'intentions' are which we never see as a reality.

When they're out I'll gladly listen to what he has to say.

[Jack Stone]

Oh well that`s it then the election is won!! The Conservative Party are withdrawing from the EPP. The only snag is that hardly anyone outside political obsessives actually knows what it is.
This will not effect the parties fortunes one bit!!.

[HF]

A good move and if any cllr wants to be in the EPP then why not join the real europhile party the LDs? Can I get you a taxi?

[Praguetory]

I'd like to give my sincere thanks to Libertas and Jury Team for forcing the Conservative Party leadership's hand on this matter.

It's nice to see that a mainstream party will now be approaching June with a position which approaches that of the general public.

[rugfish]

In fact!

Why does it take two of them to travel to Strasbourg to give their 'intentions' ?

IF they've made their mind up then all they have to do is to stick a letter in our Royal Mail to that place, or even an email will do or a press statement which says: "We stand by our promise and we declare...etc, etc."

Incidentally, same thing goes for that daft Treaty too. No one has or will forget this and the issue has not 'gone away'!

[Concanvasser]

This is great news and I'm really please DC has kept his word. This news excited me however let us PLEASE remember that whilst we are passionately interested in this sort of thing, virtually no one else could give a monkeys.
There is no mention (that I could see) of this on the BBC or even on the right wing blogs like Guido or Iain Dale.
Before any Conservative considers laying into another Conservative over differences over Euroupe PLEASE remember how profoudly un-interested everyone else is. Let us never fall back into the trap of talking to ourselves about things that interest only us.

[Prentiz]

Excellent news - I shall be rejoining the party! A promise delivered - much to the annoyance of the usual UKIP trolls!

[Shaun Bennett]

My God! Could it be that the leadership have actually listened to Tory members telling them that they were so unhappy that many of them may well vote UKIP in the EU elections in June?

I suspect that this announcement will be enough to convince many of us to loyally support the party in June as usual. After all, they deserve one more chance don't they?

Well...as long as this actually does happen after the election. Personally, I am also unhappy about how EU candidates were selected, and I want us to leave the EU, and I want us to intorudece FPTP for EU elections if we are to remain within it. So I'm still not so sure I can just loyally vote Tory in June.

Nevertheless, I will reconsider it. And my intended UKIP vote has become very slightly less likely today.

[albion]

Posted by: Denis Cooper | March 11, 2009 at 16:49

Great post Denis

Regards

[Richard Calhoun]

The Tories do need to get their act together before June as their is the danger of 'Libertas' setting up and taking their seats

[Gospel of Enoch]

Technically, the promise was to withdraw within 6 months of becoming Tory leader, so whilst it will be good news if he follows through, the specific promise made wasn't delivered, hence all the fuss now...

[HF]

Jack Stone "This will not effect the parties fortunes one bit!!."

In the short term yes you are right because so few people will be aware of it.

But those people who ae aware are the activists who will rejoin and will go out and campaign for the party. In the longer term they will be highly significant.

[pp]

The tories would have to be out of the EPP for me to support them in the euro elections.

I don't trust the europhile tory MEPs to do as they are told - and there will be no worthwhile sanction that can be taken against them.

If they did defy the leadership, the leadership would be made to look terminally incompetent.

I despise party lists - but given that they are in use, anyone losing the whip should lose their place on the list and be expelled as an MEP immediately, to be replace by the first losing candidate. But that ain't how it works...

[pp]

ps.

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2006/06/ft_confirms_dav.html

[Colin Smith, Bromley]

Excellent news albeit several years later than many of us had hoped for.

I'll want to see this signed and delivered before getting too carried away and cracking open the Aussie sparking mind you.

I've already heard it suggested elsewhere that it's just a timely tactical ploy to try and stave off UKIP and Libertas pressure ahead of the Euro's.

How cynical can some people be. Tusk, Tusk.

[Richard CORBETT]

Leaving the largest group in the European Parliament to sit in isolation (or with some pretty odd characters)is throwing away power and influence.

Why do it? Because the EPP has some federalists! Yet, it also has many non-federalists, and anyway it is NATIONAL governments and parliaments that decide on the degree of integration - the European Parliament decides on the content of EU legislation in areas it is already responsible for. On most of this, the Conservatives and other centre-right parties usually agree.

So symbolism prevails over reality! Britain, which had a strong presence in the two main Groups, will now have no presence in one of them (except for those - and I know of at least one - who will not follow Cameron's silly instruction).

[John Broughton]

At last.

Now if we can just reaffirm the committment (see Sun [date forgotten]) to hold a referendum on the constitreaty whether or not ratified our vote in the euros and the next GE will be overwhelming.

[Tory pinko]

Dear oh dear. Funny how even the smallest mention of the EU brings out all the Little Englander small mindedness. Withdrawing from the EPP is a gesture designed to appease the anti-EU sector of the party and isn't going to help the party's cause in Europe one bit.

As for withdrawing from Europe completely, that would risk us becoming another Iceland. Perhaps we should remember that we are a small county of only 60M people with a curency that no one wants and we had a trade deficit of £7Bn in Jan, £5Bn of which was with non-eu countries. Perhaps we should campain on 'save the pound' again - that went well didn't it.

[Mr Angry]

And still no Europhile has managed to make a single coherent or convincing argument for staying in.

[michael mcgough]

"Excellent news - I shall be rejoining the party! A promise delivered -

DELIVERED?

"we confirmed to M. Daul our long-standing intention to leave the EPP and establish a new grouping in the Euroepan Parliament after the 2009 elections."

Other than bringing Daul into the equation how is this intention any different to Cameron's leadership election promise.It is merely an intention and who knows what the make up of the EPP will be after June 4.
Just wait until Tannock and co start crying about lost STATUS.

[Duyfken]

Will all the sitting Tory pro-EPP MEPs accept this without protest, and should any who do not be de-selected?

[Tommy]

"Perhaps we should remember that we are a small county of only 60M people with a curency that no one wants"

I prefer to remember that we are the fifth richest country in the world, that our capital is the financial capital of the world, that despite the damage wreaked by the present government sterlinbg is still a major international reserve currency and that a country of 60,000,000 people is not small by any stretch of the imagination.

I see the federalist do not like this move at all. Richard Corbettt is so worried that he has to post a comment on conservative home, USING HIS OWN NAME! That must be a first, he usually uses a pseudonym. Or perhaps Tim and Jonathan can tell us otherwise, has he been posting under different names again?

[David Parker]

I don't believe that either Justin Hinchcliffe or John Scott are deliberately trying to deceive anyone but themselves. As Denis Cooper rightly says, we can respect, but at the same time disagree with, those who openly admit that they support the formation of a single, supreme, EU Government (whether called a Federation,Superstate or whatever other title) and, if they can make a cogent case that this would be beneficial to the UK, or even to all the individual EU States, then they should be able to make their case as best they can; providing they rely upon verifiable facts and not mere EU propaganda, and that they are prepared to submit this case to the democratic test of an election or a referendum.
However, to deny that the entire objective of the EU "Project", as openly admitted by many of its main proponents, and spelled out in each successive treaty, is "ever closer political union of all EU member states and the "harmonisation of their laws and institutions", shows a total or wilful lack of understanding of the EU and its objectives.

Once these objectives are understood and admitted, one must then question whether the EU Parliament itself has the slightest relevance to the main policies of the EU Project, other than as a sham semblance of Democracy, designed to rubber-stamp the legislation proposed by the European Commission? So far, therefore, from proving his eurosceptic credentials by threatening to abandon the EPP, Cameron is merely making a token gesture, by acknowledging the futility of the European Parliament, without, in any way, distancing himself from the EU Project.

[Denis Cooper]

Richard Corbett, a contributor here @ 17:57, who uses the same name as a certain Labour MEP who is a well known eurofanatic, liar and traitor to his country and its people, advises as follows:

"Leaving the largest group in the European Parliament to sit in isolation (or with some pretty odd characters)is throwing away power and influence.

Why do it? Because the EPP has some federalists! Yet, it also has many non-federalists, and anyway it is NATIONAL governments and parliaments that decide on the degree of integration - the European Parliament decides on the content of EU legislation in areas it is already responsible for. On most of this, the Conservatives and other centre-right parties usually agree.

So symbolism prevails over reality! Britain, which had a strong presence in the two main Groups, will now have no presence in one of them (except for those - and I know of at least one - who will not follow Cameron's silly instruction)."

So said Richard Corbett is another one like Justin Hinchcliffe, who either hasn't noticed the clear statement on the EPP website:

http://www.epp.eu/hoofdpagina.php?hoofdmenuID=1

"THE EPP IS COMMITTED TO A FEDERAL EUROPE"

or who knows about it and chooses to pretend otherwise.

I don't know what patriotic Tories will make of this advice, proffered by somebody using the same name as one of their political opponents.

I'd go on the blog of that Labour MEP, the eurofanatic liar and traitor Richard Corbett, and ask him whether he's really the originator, but I can't because he's too scared to allow any comments:

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/blog/

Today's Corbett posting: "Dishonest Taxpayers' Alliance again miss the point".

"Another week, and another dishonest and misleading ‘report’ about the costs of the EU by a right-wing pressure group. This time the so-called Taxpayers' Alliance has published a book in which they claim that EU membership costs every citizen £2000 a year. Typically, it bases its figures on papers written by Patrick Minford and Ian Milne – both supporters of the Bruges group and both in favour of Britain withdrawing from the EU. Unsurprisingly, given the sources, the figures they claim are rather high. The frustrating thing is that these ‘studies’ are a complete waste of time – they are not designed to find the truth about the cost of regulation, but about feeding eye-catching figures to eurosceptic tabloids (as I pointed out in my reply to another such 'study' last week by Open Europe.")

[Denis Cooper]

I don't know why my earlier posting, saying that Tory eurofederalists should:

"Be men, not snakes, and say so openly.

Don't slither around handing out leaflets festooned with the Union Jack, and don't earnestly assure the voters that you believe that we should be "in Europe, but not run by Europe".

Say straight out what you believe, as men would do - that you believe that the people we elect to the British Parliament, to make our law, should be subordinated to federal European institutions."

has been overwritten.

Is that not true?

[Man in the Street]

Finally at last!!! Get it done and make it known BEFORE the Euro elections

[Adam in London]

Be happy.

[David Parker]

Denis Cooper,
Congratulations, not so much for exposing, but re-exposing for the umpteenth time, the sheer bile,bigotry and lack of intelligence or understanding of Corbett for the feelings and beliefs of those who mistakenly elected him to be their MEP.
If, by some perverse accident, he should be re-elected in July, this would be a condemnation not only of the drawbacks of the EU parliamentary system of Proportional Representation, but, surprise, surprise, of the EU Parliament itself.

[Jack Stone]

Amazing. Worse economic crisis in living memory, trouble starting again in Northern Ireland, people losing there jobs, homes being repossessed and people get this obsessive about where The Conservative Party sit in the European Parliament.
You really make the party little more than a joke at times!!!

[JD]

We, in Ireland will vote No to Lisbon 2 in greater numbers than we did before. It will be interesting to see if our righteous masters in Brussels take any notice. If they do not we all know what the alternative to the ballot box is.JD

NO TO LISBON MEANS NO TO LISBON!
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=38059363467&ref=mf

[Tim Roll-Pickering]

I start this comment by saying that I hope no-one will accuse me of being a federalist.

What a lot of people repeatedly forget on this is that Cameron's pledge was not "to leave the EPP no matter what" but "to create a new grouping of eurosceptic conservative parties". No promise was ever made that we'd withdraw completely and sit in total isolation as non-inscrits.

The problem is that creating a grouping of "eurosceptic conservative parties" is a lot harder than it seems. British-style conservatism is not that popular in Europe - the Czech Civic Democrats are a very rare example of a major party who truly are a mirror image of us. In most countries the main centre-right option is Christian Democracy, and it is the differences between Christian Democracy and British-style Conservatism that are at the root not only of our long term uneasy relationship with the EPP (remember that some two decades ago it was the EPP who were sceptical about our caucusing with them, not the other way round) and indeed with the EU project as a whole, a project that is very much a Christian Democrat one.

On top of this the groupings in the European Parliament are a lot more pragmatic alliances of convenience than many people realise. The alliances of the Irish party Fianna Fáil are an interesting case study because they show the problems that a party which is (in very crude terms) liberal-conservative has when it is outside the EPP (because Fine Gael got in first and blocked entry). Fianna Fáil has found itself in a succession of alliances with various other right-wing parties, some of whom are not easy to defend back in Ireland, whilst others were temporarily transitioning outside the EPP due to temporary divisions of the right in their home countries. And there is a difference between sitting with the French Rally for the Republic & Forza Italia (both of whom moved to the EPP) and sitting with the Polish Law & Justice party. Plus Fianna Fáil ministers would like to aspire to top EU jobs but there's little prospect of them getting those jobs whilst they sit in the small Union for a Europe of Nations grouping. Since they can't get into the EPP they have been trying for years to do the next best thing and join the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats, despite not being a liberal party. They've only just got in (and once again this is down to a country's domestic politics as the Irish liberal party, the Progressive Democrats, have just dissolved themselves).

The new "Movement for European Reform" (is that still the name?) grouping proposed by the Conservatives doesn't offer much to entice other parties to leave the EPP or other large blocks, even if they would be more ideologically at home in the MER. Leaders of MER member parties would find it much more difficult to get top EU jobs, and yes nobody here cares about that but it is something that the decision makers in those parties will be thinking about. The result is that most MER members are likely to come from already small groupings which tend not to attract the most mainstream parties, or else will be larger parties involved in local divisions of their right temporarily sitting in the MER until their rival either disappears or relents and thus allows EPP membership.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there really is a huge tidal wave of mainstream parties just waiting to jump forward and join MER. And maybe there's evidence for that - has anyone seen it?

[Paul D]

Justin, whether or not you agree with the pledge that David Cameron made, the fact remains that he did pledge to withdraw our MEPs from the EPP

Are you saying that he should renege on that pledge? Yes or No?

[Chris Palmer]

Tim Roll-Pickering, in June of 2006 on the BBC’s Any Questions, Jonathan Dimbleby asked William Hague this question: 'Let’s be clear. If you fail to form a new group, will you still leave the EPP?'. William Hague's reply didn't leave much room for doubt: 'We expect and intend to form a new group, but we shall leave the EPP whether or not'. I am sure (though not certain - and will have a look tonight to see if I can find it) that I remember David Cameron saying something much the same.

However, as I pointed out earlier, it really doesn't matter whether or not the Conservatives sit in the EPP-ED or not. It's Britain being in or out of the EU which is the fundamental issue.

[Denis Cooper]

"What a lot of people repeatedly forget on this is that Cameron's pledge was not "to leave the EPP no matter what" ..."

What some us remember on this is that his pledge was in fact exactly that, and that he also said that he would do it "in weeks not months".

There was absolutely no qualification about the need to form alternative group first, and nor should there have been.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Paul D, Tory MEPs also promised (in our 2004 manifesto) to stay in the EPP until June 2009!

[Denis Cooper]

Jack Stone

I'm not so much bothered about where the Conservative Party sits in the European Parliament, as where the Conservative Party stands on the legal supremacy of the British Parliament.

When a Shadow Attorney General advises that an amendment to affirm and protect the supremacy of the British Parliament "would create a constitutional contradiction", then something has gone very badly wrong with that party.

[Paul D]

So, Justin, you think they SHOULD leave in June 09 then? (Satisfying both the manifesto pledge and also DC's!)

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Did you not see my original comment???

[Peter]

The truth is that ordinary poeple don't really care or even know what the grouping means or not.

[michael mcgough]

"It was, everyone agreed, a friendly and useful meeting about how to manage the logistics of the split in terms of staff, finances and so on."

Money,money,always follow the money.

[Tommy]

"The truth is that ordinary poeple don't really care or even know what the grouping means or not."

But we do!

The (extraordinary?) members of the conservative party care very much.

[Philip]

Good news, and about time too. This increases hope it will at last happen.

I agree with Tapestry (1634) about the likely BBC anti-conservative backlash. Maybe this could include the BBC seeking out statements from EU-philes in the party in an attempt to show the Conservatives as divided on the issue. Justin Hinchcliffe (1248) suggests this sort of thing is already happening.

Let's hope that whatever new grouping is formed in Brussels will have early and very substantial success in enabling sovereignty to be returned to nation states. Otherwise it still be might be better off out in the end.

[Tim Roll-Pickering]

It's my recollection that Cameron in 2006 explicitly ruled out sitting as non-inscrits, and there was a piece about this, but I can't immediately find it. If Hague gave the answer you quote (and as June 2006 was about the time when the MER was announced it's not clear if that quote pre or post dates it) then it sounds like everyone has come away with a different set of expectations that has just complicated things no end.

How about instead of searching through on the spot interviews someone actually produces the text of Cameron's pledge (which wasn't in his leadership manifesto).

[Mastiff]

Michael McGough, UKIP candidate, should not be throwing stones about following the money.
The staff who we are talking about are real people (not aspirant candidates) with families, mortgages and so on. It is the responsible thing to do to ensure that there is an "amicable divorce".

Remember your fellow candidates in the East and South West currently employed via the European Parliament who will also be looking for some recompense as IndDem splits up (after all, some of your colleagues are off to join Libertas).

[ToryBlog.com]

ConHome's post:
"..notice of the party's intention to leave the group at the end of this term of the European Parliament, before the elections in June"

Mark Francois's statement:
"..our long-standing intention to leave the EPP and establish a new grouping in the Euroepan Parliament after the 2009 elections"

Now, call me cynical but 'after' is not 'before' which has a fixed last possible delivery date, and 'after' could be any time in the future and could possibly be not delivered at all, if 'circumstances' change (i.e. the polling booths have closed).

[Julian Melford]

I'm afraid I'm left cold by the talk of creating a new group of European democrats - or whatever whitewash people want to give it.

William's Movement for European Reform was supposed to be that. Our main allies were the Czech ODS - who are moving to ratify Lisbon.

There was also one other party in MER, the Bulgarian UDF. They had dual membership of the EPP, but caved in and left MER in 2007 when EPP leader Wilfried Martens accused them of undermining the unity of the EPP federalist group. They firmly support the EPP.

These people are not 'European Conservatives' and never will be. The sooner we recognise that the EU will never be reformed in any way that is truly democratic or private enterprise friendly, the sooner we will get our country back.

So long as we appear to face both ways on Europe, we will lose votes to UKIP whose message is at least crystal clear. This will continue to deprive some good candidates of seats.

[Alan Hawkins]

This constant appeasement by our peers' has got to stop. The initial intent for joining the federation (EU)was to engage and pursue trading and associated activities to the benefit of all member states.

Since when the whole set up has expanded and become totally bloated and for the man in the street a total mystery as to not only where it begins but where if ever it ends.
Endless rules and regulations overiding our own home made legislation come what may with little or no redress yet alone consultation.
We are mostly all in the dark until it's a done deal!.

It is evident that there are endless conflicts of interest between members and that time after time our national interests are compromised in order to keep our place in the pecking order.

The problem is that we are no longer a world power and as a consequence are unable to punch our weight in that context.

It is imperative that our national interests take precedence. If not we will rapidly become also rans and lame ducks.

[John]

To help with the debate it is worth highlighting that the Conservatives are not in the EPP. They are in the EPP-ED parliamentary grouping, as part of the ED part of that.

Referring to the EPP might make a useful short hand, but it is inaccurate and creates confusion as is demonstrated by a fair few Conservative commentators on the matter.

[John Scott]

I have put my point of view forward in good faith and have been accused of "deceit" and worse by people like Denis who cannot debate ideas without resorting to insult.

I am a passionate Conservative, a passionate Brit and a passionate pro-European. This is what I believe and there is a worrying tendancy among some Conservatives to shout down people who do not agree with their perspective.

Unlike many on this board, I am not ideological in my support of the EU and our membership of the EPP. I have witnessed first hand the work of Conservative MEPs who have changed legislation for the better (MIFID is an example for those interested in the details). This would not have been possible but for our membership of the EPP.

If I felt that it was not in Britain's interests to be a member of the EU I would not support membership. But in a world that is uniting in the face of a worsening recession, now is the time to build powerful allies, not turn our backs on our friends.

I have not heard a single convincing argument for why we need to withdraw from the EPP today; it is the same people who deserted our party for UKIP and nearly destroyed the last democratically elected Conservative government who have discovered the internet and now sadly blog to kingdom come about their euro-obsessions and fears.

Guys - there is nothing to be frightened about. We should get in their, argue our case, compete and win. That is the British way! You shouldn't be scared of Europe or the world beyond our shores. Defeatism is not patriotism.

[Tommy]

"You shouldn't be scared of Europe or the world beyond our shores."

The world beyond our shores? The world that we are not allowed to trade with due to import tarriffs designed to protect the french and spanish agricultural industry and the german manufacturing? That world beyond our shores?

The british people, or the european people for that matter, do not want the european union to exist. If you say: Should britain be a member of the EU? Then a small majority will say yes because we do not fear engaging with europe. But if you ask them if they want the free movement of people, a common defence policy, a common immigration policy, a european army, a european police force, a common trade policy, a european parliament etc then the answer would be a resounding 'no'.

People are not xenophobic as you seek to portray them, they simply don't want a federal europe, why is that such a bad thing? Every country in the world bar 27 seems to manage perfectly well.

[Denis Cooper]

"It's my recollection that Cameron in 2006 explicitly ruled out sitting as non-inscrits, and there was a piece about this, but I can't immediately find it."

It's my recollection that when I watched Cameron making his leadership pitch in the autumn of 2005, he explicitly pledged that if he became leader the Tory MEPs would leave the EPP, without setting out any preconditions about forming an alternative group beforehand.

And as I video recorded those proceedings, I should be able to find the tape to confirm my recollection.

[Ray Finch]

The issue is: Why has Mr. Cameron done this just before the election?
Will he declare, after the June results are in "There is no significant grouping possible. Therefore, we shall return to the EPP and lead from the front with conviction and the interests of Britain to the fore."?

Have I just written his speech for him?

If you are a Conservative, remember the history of your post 40's leaders. They all wanted to sell us out to the EU and its precursors.

Remember, the phrase "Ever closer union" is in the original Treaty of Rome.

I understand the LibDems (under the urging of the Huhne faction, the most powerful theoretical bloc) are considering making an In/Out referendum part of their GE manifesto. Don't be outflanked.
There is no choice. "In Europe but not governed by Europe" is simply a lie. The founding treaty and every one since specifically states that this is not an option.

[Steve Tierney]

This is really great news.

I feel a little sorry for the people who say they are "Pro-EPP Conservatives". Conservatism is, as we all know, a very broad church, but this really is an issue upon which we are sorely divided.

Looking at the posts here though, and talking to other Conservative friends, that division seems to be dwindling and the people who are "Pro-EPP" and indeed "Pro Europe" are starting to look pretty isolated.

I like to hear fellow members opinions, even when I don't share them. But I have to admit, when a fellow member starts talking up our EU Membership (something which seems to happen very rarely these days) I start to wonder if we're even in the same party. I try to keep an open mind about it, but its increasingly difficult.

[Tim Roll-Pickering]

ToryBlog.com: The before/after thing appears to be because the EPP will be launching a common manifesto for the European elections and demand clarity from the member parties about whether they will be onboard. The new grouping can't be formally created in the parliament until after the elections for procedure stuff.

John at 23:00: The revival of the name "European Democrats" and the branding of the caucus as "EPP-ED" was a figleaf of nomenclature negotiated by William Hague back in 1999 to try to distance the Conservatives from pro European EPP members. The European Democrats have no real existence as a distinct grouping.

[Tommy]

"I feel a little sorry for the people who say they are "Pro-EPP Conservatives". Conservatism is, as we all know, a very broad church, but this really is an issue upon which we are sorely divided."

With the exception of the usual suspects, I think we are all in agreement.

[Yet Another Anon]

The fulfilment of the promise to leave the EPP will limit a potentially huge campaigning tool for UKIP and the English Democrats, and to a lesser extent other Pro-EU parties (the Conservative leadership position remaining opposed to withdrawal, as it has all along).

The pledge was made 3.5 years ago now, it was a key pledge of David Cameron, the General Public is largely unaware, but would be made aware that it had been a key factor behind David Cameron's winning the leadership election and that if he couldn't deliver on the Conservative position in the EU, then what possible chance was there that anything else he was pledging to do would come about.

[ToryBlog.com]

"EPP will be launching a common manifesto for the European elections and demand clarity from the member parties about whether they will be onboard"

Tim RP,
What is not clear about "We are leaving before the euro elections and thus will not be onboard"?

How can the Tories campaign as 'onboard' but leave as soon as the polling booths close?

I'm beginning to suspect that the Tory hand has been forced, but all they are offering is more deceptions. My £20 bet with Malc is still safe imho.

If anyone wants to bet that the Tories will not be in the EPP-ED grouping at the end of the first day of the new Parliament, let me know.

[Richard Corbett]

The posting by Tommy (March 11, 2009 at 18:37) accuses me of posting under a pseudonym. Let me make it clear that I have never posted anything under a pseudonym on Conservative Home. I have also never posted anything there at all before yesterday at 17:57 under my own name - I shouldn't imagine it's worth it. This is the first time I have looked at the site - and what a mixture of fantasy and imagination it is, apart from the odd sensible comment!