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Who makes the decisions in the Conservatives and why do they take so long? A week after the IHT debacle and flip floppery continues apace.

Harsh, but unfortunately necessary.

Yes, I've changed my mind too. Get rid of him and make sure he never returns. Disassociate him and his UKIP affections from the Party and move on.

He gave £5 million nearly a decade ago, well done and thank you, but this is pathetic. Imagine if a shadow minister said he's voting UKIP just this once.

Wheeler knows how damaging UKIP are to the Conservatives, and I imagine this is him spitting his dummy out and having a dig at the Tories. Very sour.

Get rid.

Frankly, this self-aggrandizing attention-seeking muppet should have been kicked out in 2005.

Cameron gave him many more final chances than he deserved.

So treacherous EUphiles can march through the lobbies with Labour and nothing happens, even get promoted, but god forbid a EUsceptic steps out of line for they get kicked out of the party.

Well we see where Cameron stands.

Oh dear. A decision that will be regretted later.

One good step. Eric, what about Beazley and Jackson?


You do *not* openly support candidates and campaigns of another political party and expect the party to turn a blind eye.

It just doesn't work like that. It's one of the things that party members Do Not Do.

Absolutely correct.

UKIP is a rival to us in the election, not an ally.

As for the comments that this is EUphilia, incorrect. It's about the party.

Expulsion from Cameron's lilly livered Conservative Party would be a mark of honour and encouragement for others voting UKIP in June.

Loyalty is more valuable than donations. The attempt to spoil Conservatives' weekend somewhat overshadowed by Labour sleaze and porno tastes!
Even before we get onto the sh*t Labour have got us into.

"As for the comments that this is EUphilia, incorrect. It's about the party."

Some of us unaligned people wish you'd put country ahead of party.

Whatever your objective in regards to the EU, voting UKIP isn't going to achieve it. It effectively splits votes, unless of course you think there is value in a protest vote.

"Some of us unaligned people wish you'd put country ahead of party."

...by wasting a vote and possibly helping the fortunes (as in luck not money!) of a party (NL) that have ruined this country?

He is perfectly entitled to do as he pleases with his money and his vote but he cannot expect to remain as a Conservative Party member by voting and supporting another party!

Sad, but he has to go. No party member can dictate party policy or encourage others to vote against it.


One of the most dispiriting things about this debate is the belief, evidenced above and elsewhere within Conservative insider-talk, that the European Elections are simply a 'staging post' for the General Election – a sort of giant opinion poll, if you like. I suppose this accords with Cameron's view that "nobody cares" about the EU.

The cynicism of this is, quite clearly, what has incensed Stuart Wheeler – a man who has previously forced the Labour Party to admit (or rather, submit as an argument) in court that its manifesto commitments are de facto not to be relied upon.

Wheeler has said plainly that he believes that a Conservative victory at the General Election is vital, that he will gladly support it, but that his country matters to him more than his party.

If the Conservative Party continues to insist on not taking Europe seriously (either positively or negatively) itself, how does it expect anyone to vote for it in the European elections? It is ridiculously easy to convince the voting public in the street that a vote for the Tories in June is a wasted vote - because you keep more or less saying so yourselves. Trust me.

And because of this, Stuart Wheeler has stepped into the vacuum and said it's okay for Tories to vote UKIP in June. Well, you only have yourselves to blame.

Past Westminster election results show that UKIP has helped about 30 Labour MPs (mostly pro Europe) keep their job.

UKIP took a great deal of votes last Euro elections to all but fall apart months afterwards.

Although many members are good people and their leader comes across very well,if they help Labour on the one hand and fall apart on the other, they are an obstruction.

Obstructions are just that. Politics should be constructive.

"Loyalty is more valuable than donations."

Yes but loyalty to one's country is more important than party loyalty. Stuart Wheeler has been expelled because as a patriot he is disgusted by the tory party's silence on the issue of our national surrender to the EU.

Anyone who supports his expulsion clearly thinks the conservative party is more important than British national independence - which obviously makes no sense whatever.

Stupid - stupid - stupid.

If this expulsion is true then the party has shot itself in the foot.

Stuart Wheeler clearly does not trust the Tory Leadership on issues of National Sovereignty and why should he - the track record is poor.

UKIP only exists because of disaffected Tories and this will drive yet more to register a protest by voting UKIP or BNP.

The European Elections are different to all other elections and the Party should not threaten those who object to the EU on principle.

If I were the Tory Boss I would have shrugged the matter off as of little consequence in the grand scheme of things with a line like "Stuart is Stuart and we are not to be distracted by and old man’s eccentricities*”

* Personally I do not believe Stuart Wheeler is at all eccentric. I believe he is highly intelligent and deadly serious.

Anyway it has not really been a very good week for the Cameroons. First Dan Hannan and then Stuart Wheeler dominate the political agenda.

Dear UKIP trolls:

Are you saying that, because Wheeler is a Euronut like yourself, he should be entitled to break any rule he likes without consequences?

That seems to be your implication.

The Conservative Party does not have a God given right to people's loyalty. It has to be earned and the Conservatives have not earned it, particularly on the subject of the E.U. for many years. The party could split into pro and anti E.U. groups and as far as I am concerned the sooner that happens the better for the good of this country of ours.

i hope everyone who either wants Britain out of Europe or wants renegotiation of the terms of membership votes UKIP in the Euro elections.

It doesn't 'split' the vote as some have suggested because its not FPTP, so it won't be allowing pro-Europeans in ahead of Eurosceptics, moderate or otherwise, from the Tories.

The size of the UKIP vote share will hopefully accurately reflect the strength of opinion on Europe, from which Cameron can make his own deductions. If people vote Tory out of loyalty then the issue is distorted.

So vote UKIP if you're p ssed off with the Tory stance.

I seem to remember Dan Hannan is top of the list for his region, so he's bound to be re-elected. That's all that matters!

Seems like I've just wasted my time posting on another thread! This was the right decision - Wheeler has to obey the same rules as all other members or face the consequences.

It is utterly preposterous to even think that its OK to donate money to a ival Party and then stay in the Party you are campaigning against.I hear a lot about principles - but this sounds more like wanting your cake as well as eating it.

It needs to be remembered that the Tory policy on the EU is to reform from within. Time after time, I have heard Cameron (and Hague for that matter) say that they believe we should remain as members of the EU.Its Wheeeler who is out of step and not Cameron. He made his position quite clear during the leadership campaign. It may well be that the Wheelers of this world thought they could steamroller him into adopting a more pro UKIP line and now that this has proved not to be the case then the toys start coming out of the pram.

The point is that the policy is the policy of the leadership. At least 90% of the Tory activists I know are secessionist. The leadership has been captured by the Vichyists. The membership will give Mr. Cameron and his cabal the kicking it deserves in the June 4th elections and it is exactly what they deserve.
Why is it so hard to give the Population of this country what it deserves and has long cried out for, A simple In/Out referendum. Give us that and the Conservative Party will win the next GE by a landslide!


I'm sure Mr Wheeler will just turn round to Cameron and say "Look at my visage, am I bovvered?"

The story the British public will see is not that Mr Wheeler has been expelled, but that the man who gave the Tories their single highest donation, who has fought for change within, has now given up on the Tory Party.

With 55% of the British public supporting EU withdrawal, Mr Wheeler and the msm have helped enormously to spread the message; an EU vote for the Tories is a wasted vote.

Just when you thought a return to power was in the bag too! :-)

Rod Sellars. You say it all about UKIP when you say that this will encourage people to vote UKIP or BNP. All UKIP are at the end of the day is BNP lite. Just as nasty. Just as stupid as the BNP but not got the courage to actually say what they truly believe about race and immigration.
The only place fit for UKIP is in the gutter with there fellow travellers the BNP!!!

BBC has it as confirmed now.


Jack Stone.

The usual lies.
Read our constitution.

Mr Wheeler is obviously dissatisfied with the weak solution of maidens’ water that passes for criticism of the EU as made by Cameron. "We will not let it rest there" (unless Lisbon is not already ratified) is not good enough. We want to know the meaning of "rest there”

The Euroscepticism of Cameron is in doubt. The golden rule of politics is: When politicians place themselves in positions whereby that they can be doubted, then never give them the benefit.

The mistake that Mr Wheeler makes is in stating that he will vote Conservative at the next GE; he has sold the pass. If he does he will probably regret it. He appears to be voting for people that will put Party and careers before the interests of Britain.

Where is the evidence that Cameron is truly a Eurosceptic and aware of the need to recover our sovereignty (don't bother to mention the EPP)? Mr Stewart articulates and justifies the need for Britain to vacate Brussels in a clear and meaningful message in today’s newspaper (I believe it is the Times).

A shame, after all the guy is a Conservative.
But rules are rules and he was sending a very wrong headed signal to the public. You cannot have your cake and eat it.

You break the rules, you pay the penalty.

So he's a rich Europhobe? Tough titties.

A shame, after all the guy is a Conservative.

No, he's not. Maybe you think I'm being simplistic, but he was openly supporting an opposition party now!

"..if [UKIP] help Labour on the one hand and fall apart on the other, they are an obstruction.
Obstructions are just that. Politics should be constructive."

Arrogant and dismissive, but par for the course with so many Tory loyalists. I'd prefer it if they were loyal to country and principle, not just to the great Blue Blazer. And if the Conservative Party wants to stop people from voting with their conservative consciences for UKIP or indeed the BNP, it knows what it can do: develop some cojones over the EU, immigration, the Welfare State and tax, and stop substituting shallow sound-bite spin for honest, traditional principles.

"just when you thought a return to power was in the bag too! :-)" Oh disloyal you!!

Only the most foolish believe its in the bag. Europe is still tearing us apart; as is UKIP in reality. Personally I think kicking Wheeler out is a mistake, this is a guy who is well known for backing more than one horse.
Knowing the man he will win whatever we do or don't.

"All UKIP are at the end of the day is BNP lite." They stand at opposite ends on Europe. UKIP is not BNP-LITE, its gaining more great thinkers than bnp. UKIP has less need of yobs.

"Its Wheeeler who is out of step and not Cameron. He made his position quite clear during the leadership campaign. It may well be that the Wheelers of this world thought they could steamroller him into adopting a more pro UKIP line and now that this has proved not to be the case then the toys start coming out of the pram."

Youre an idiot. You think Mr Wheeler is out to further the glory of the UKIP careerists? Mr Wheeler is trying to remind people how much of the power to govern themselves they have given away to a government beyond their control. UKIP, Cameron and the conservative party are irrelevant in all of this because for as long as we remain in the EU no party will have the power to govern this country.

Jack Stone (I probably should not rise to the bait) your summation of UKIP is, at best, peurile.

UKIP's biggest problem is internal division associated with questions of probity - but then look at the abuse of expenses (in a moral if not legal sense) by some MPs. They are no more racist than we are or Labour or Lib Dems.

The tragedy here is that the pro eu faction within our party gets away with "murder" all the time. Ian Taylor (and a number of others) flouts the (agreed) policy and nothing happens. Even front benchers can hold integrationist views but others are forced to renounce or withdraw their support of BOO. This is not even handed.

Other than the current financial storm our membership of the eu is the single greatest threat to this nation. Our relationship with the eu cannot/must not be swept under the carpet.

I'd say that this does more damage to the Tories than it does to Mr Wheeler. That's probably a good thing as any extra publicity showing up EU Dave and the LibLabCon anti democratic, anti electorate alliance is welcome. A few more people will know that a vote for the Tories is a vote to hand over yet more power to the corrupt EU tonight.

Why do UKIP members feel the need to continuall troll Conservative threads?

I presume it's some kind of virtual e-peen extension to make up for their own feelings of sexual inadequacy?

@John Broughton:

UKIP are a puerile party of intellectual subnormals. They don't really deserve more than polite mockery.

@Adrian Butterworth:

Wheeler is out to further the glory of his own ego. No more.

Where were all these "wronged" UKIPPERs when Farage started his nights of the long knives expelling elected (by UKIP members) UKIP NEC people?

When was Wheeler elected by Tory members?

There are so many law suits within UKIP on this that UKIP have even had to back down and reinstall at least one chap because they could not afford the legal bills!

UKIP would not recognise a democratic principle if they fell over it.

PS in some regions at least 20% of UKIP's elected (by members) MEP candidates have been forced out by Farage this year!

The right decision. I would have thought that writing a huge cheque to a rival political party is an open-and-shut case for expulsion, regardless of which opposition party and the motive for doing so.

Rules are important in any organisation, until it suits the organisation to bend them, break them or ignore them.

Not being a member of the party, can somebody enlighten me on the vexed issue of Europe. Was the current position arrived at after a vote by the membership, or is it simply a position taken by the leadership, in the same way Gordon Brown decides most of the Labour governments policies on the hoof.

I see the amount mentioned is now £200k

Did it go up when he was expelled???

What is great about this story is that the view that Britain's membership of the EU is utterly disastrous is getting enough coverage in the mainstream media to start to sound like a normal, sensible point of view - which of course it is.

I'm not going to defend stuart wheeler, but how come he has been kicked out(an ordinary member/donor) when cristopher beazley has left the ED group and criticized cameron saying that if he were elected the uk would lose all influence in the EU and claiming he was isolated, and yet still has the tory whip?

Caroline Jackson has also publicly stated that she may resign the whip and yet she has also not been expelled.


If the people of Britain care enough to want EU withdrawal, you'd think they'd vote for withdrawalist parties in a general election.

Yet bizarrely, the electorate have voted for pro-European parties every year since 1975.


Well what a day. Cameron hands a political story to the Today programme which will take the heat away from Brown. Gosh, the man is a political mastermind.

How not to win an election? That will be the title of Cameron's book!

Perhaps he will tell those that want out of the EU, Just what is the Tory policy?

As for all you other lemmings, putting party before country. Well Done. I was interested by another blog where a comment was made to Look at:-http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=92999

I did and I would suggest that you all do the same and consider if what he says, fits this country and then ask is it right to put country after party?

Q: Why do UKIP members feel the need to continually troll Conservative threads?

A: Because they have no welcome home of their own to go to. They are a sad homeless bunch doomed to wander around talking to strangers. The bag people of politics.

So long and thanks for all the fish. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

@HF. Ukippers enjoy debating with the posters here. Conservative Home is independent from CCHQ.

There is an official, and vibrant, UKIP members forum that requires registration and a valid membership number. That is where the internal UKIP debates take place on policies and campaign issues.

Get a life, you sad whinger!

About time

Let's not stop with Wheeler - let's have a proper clear out. Roger Helmer sails pretty close to the wind at times. I do hope the whips/cchq keep a list of all the loud-mouthed/disloyal Euronuts that linger, like a bad smell, in our Party. Why should we tolerate their antics?

PS. Helmer has still not answered my questions.

Stuart Wheeler was clearly happy to donate millions of pounds to the Conservative party before Cameron gave notice to leave the EPP and before Cameron promised a national referendum on the Lisbon treaty. But now that Cameron has done these things he criticises Cameron's stance on Europe.

UKIP are welcome to this europhile.

Any member of the Conservative party who votes for, campaigns for or financially supports a rival party should be expelled. The correct decision.

''Wheeler expelled''


"I see the amount mentioned is now £200k

Did it go up when he was expelled???

Posted by: michael mcgough | March 29, 2009 at 20:43"

I hope so but it is not confirmed. A £200k donation will wind up the mindless whingers like HF even more! They like to dish out abuse (fruitcakes etc) but don't have the guts or intellect to debate us. Where was the Tory spokesman to debate Wheeler on the Politics Show? Wimps!!


Is not this thread about UKIP?


This is good news for Britain.

Thank you Messrs Cameron, Hilton and Osborne.

"I do hope the whips/cchq keep a list of all the loud-mouthed/disloyal Euronuts that linger, like a bad smell, in our Party. Why should we tolerate their antics?"

Absolutely, let's expel all those euronuts who have embarrased and criticized Cameron. Like Ian taylor or Caroline Jackson or cristopher Beazley.

Then let's spport the loyal people who have been re-selected as candidates at the top of their respective lists, like Roger Helmer and Dan Hannan.

You may not agree with these people, but they have been nothing but loyal, unlike the europhiles.

Ray Finch this is a site for the Conservative party. (duh). The thread is about Wheeler, not UKIP. It would still be here if Wheeler donated money to the Judean Peoples Front or any other minority interest party. We do not have threads about UKIP here! Hint that is because the site is called Conservative!

So please take the hint and if you want to debate on a multi-party site use places such as Vote 2009 or Political Betting etc etc.

Richard Carey at 20:24
>>No, he's not. Maybe you think I'm being simplistic, but he was openly supporting an opposition party now!<<

I dont know what the original poster you are responding to thinks, but I certainly think you are being simplistic, yes.

UKIP are an opposition party indeed but as has been said by others, they exist mostly for Tories who can't deal with our stance on Europe. Consequently, Its just not as simple as calling them "opposition". Well, it clearly is for some, but not for all of us.

I'm all in favour of strict enforcement of the rules. That's what rules are for. If the rules say he's gotta go, then I guess he's gotta go.

Nonetheless, the whole thing feels wrong to me and leaves a sour taste. Kinda like when David Cameron took a pop at Libertarians in his speech at last year's conference. If we keep alienating our own people because they don't exactly toe the current party line where does it all end?

So many idiotic "Don't let the door hit you on the way out" and "you wont be missed" comments leave me cold. These are long-time supporters who have spent effort and money and time for us. Whatever our current differences, a little respect and manners doesn't cost anything. Jeez.

It proves that the Tory Party cannot be bought. Lesser members have been expelled for far less.

Goodbye Mr Wheeler.

"It proves that the Tory Party cannot be bought."

So what do those sponsoring Gideon,wee Alan,Dave and the rest get for the wedges they are spending Steve?

In response to eugene, these "reports" on the UKIP effect at general elections have done nothing more than simply subtract the UKIP share of the vote from each Labour majority.

There is no evidence that every single UKIP voter would vote Conservative if there was no UKIP candidate and/or if the Conservative position on Europe was more Eurosceptic. Equally there's no evidence that every current Conservative voter would still vote for the party if it took a more Eurosceptic line.

In the London Mayoral election last year less than 30% of the voters who gave their first preference to UKIP gave their second to us. UKIP itself has never drawn its membership exclusively from Conservatives - it was founded by a former Liberal and its highest profile member in the last five years was an ex Labour MP. It draws votes from Labour, Lib Dems, and small parties as well as accumulating some of the protest vote against regular politics. Much of that vote would not come behind us, and indeed some of that vote would instead go against us.

You do *not* openly support candidates and campaigns of another political party and expect the party to turn a blind eye.
It just doesn't work like that. It's one of the things that party members Do Not Do.

David Cameron did.
When will he be expelled?

@Geoff Middleton:


I've met Stuart and admire him. He seems a decent and honest man.But he fully deserved to be expelled from the party.
I've read several different reasons on why he chose to give UKIP money. The most prominent being that he objected to Ken Clarke returning to the Shadow Cabinet. Well Stuart, tough. Neither you nor any other donor can make threats like that.
It's sad but I fear he's going to waste his time and what's left of his money on a pointless gesture to a party that is an electoral joke.

I don't think that expelling Wheeler is a good move. Although he was totally wrong to back Ukip for the Euro elections, "expulsion" is a very harsh term and the suggestion that we do not want him back is foolish. Mr Wheeler has given a great deal of time and money to this party and the matter is best shrugged off as an eccentricity rather than male an issue of it. A suspension until after the June elections would be more appropriate - especially given the large number of members who, wrongly in my opinion, have backed ukip before and may walk out as a result - but even then I would make sure such a suspension is privately articulated to Mr Wheeler as a matter of "look old chap, we can't have everyone running round supporting any old party, so just play along with this suspension and we can all forget about it in July".

I seem to remember Churchill defecting - "ratting" as he put it - twice in his career. We're meant to he a broad tent and the thing with tents is that sometimes people fall out of them and come back in afterwards.

I'd hate to be called a UKIP troll, because on most things I am more Conservative than anything else, but on the EU I am with UKIP all the way.

It matters not a jot whom we elect in this country, as about 85 % of our laws and "statutory instruments" which are never debated in the UK, come from the EU. Imposed by people who we never voted FOR and whom we cannot vote AGAINST.

What was heavily sold as a trading group, which I voted to remain in in '75 (?), now tells us on pain of massive fines how we are to conduct ourselves in completely unrelated areas.

CAP - no need to elaborate.
CFP, drop millions of tonnes of dead fish which could be food, back into the North Sea, and kill our fishing industry in the process, with UK "quota" in Spanish hands - huh ?
Working hours we are exempt from, so bring it back in under Elf'n'Safety.
X % of electricity from windmills
No landfill when we have plenty of space available, kill Chinese peasants instead, by EU dictat.

etc etc

We need to regain our country from unelected eureaucrats. The only way I see of doing that is to vote UKIP until a UK mainstream party sees which way the parade is going, and gets ahead of it. THAT would be leadership.

Anything swept under the carpet, as this has been for so long by the Tories, since the traitor Heath's admitted lies in fact, will be tripped over sooner rather than later.

So UKIP in PR elections in the EU, and Tory in FPTP in the UK sounds like a sound policy.

Go on, flame me !

Alan Douglas

I don't suppose Stuart Wheeler cares one way or another about being a member of a party that is europhiliac in its policies and expressed opinions and socialist in many of them.

However, I do wish some people would finally work out that voting UKIP in the euro-elections (whatever may happen in the general) is NOT a wasted vote. Voting Conservative if you are eurosceptic IS. Most of us don't care about the EPP membership though its persistence is an indicator of attitudes. However, the Conservatives' persistently misleading statements about what they would do should they get lots of members into the Toy Parliament shows either complete ignorance of how the EU operates or a certain economy with the truth. As for their record in government, that speaks for itself. So, let me call on all real eurosceptics not to split the eurosceptic vote and not vote Conservative. That would be a disaster. :)

Now that Wheeler has given money to ukip, let's hope that the ukippers and fellow travellers posting on here can be found something useful to do.The only way to stop Euro-Federalists is to eat away at them from the inside.You can be sure that if the UK left the EU ways would be found to disadvantage us.

UKIP are a complete waste of time and if he wants to back them, that's fine. A waste of money in my opinion.

This posted by Gary:
"Sad, but he has to go. No party member can dictate party policy or encourage others to vote against it."
I agree when can we have Daniel Hannan?

The question is how much influence will his money buy him in UKIP? Whatever the issue at hand, he clearly strikes me as someone who uses money to manipulate policy. This isn't support, it's bribery turned into spiteful blackmail, and his expulsion is one of the few faint, glimmering glimpses of something better than the last twelve years finally coming over the horizon.

I was never properly expelled from the Tories, just leaving to stand for UKP at the last GE.

I will think about rejoining on the basis of giving DC a chance to persuade me of the righteousness of his approach to our democracy.

Of course, once I have heard his verbiage as a party member I may become so enraged that I shall feel compelled openly to donate to the Kippers and go through a highly enjoyable disciplinary process.

I don't think most people actually realise what the 'loyalty' argument is really about.

The 'conservative party' have a substantial (but ageing) tribal (loyalist) vote.

The tribal votes will go to the party that is called 'conservative'.

But (mainly) younger, thinking conservatives will vote for the party that best represents conservative principals.

If there is a split (pro an anti eu) - then the group that keeps the conservative name gets the tribal vote - but at the rate they are ageing, it won't do them much good for long.

Getting the tribal vote may well win a battle or two in the short term, but those who win the real argument will win the war.

I don't know how long it will take, but Cameron is clearly in line for an even bigger slap than I thought...

What a stupid decision.

There are many Tories who will be voting UKIP, me amongst them, because Cameron and the bunch of wets at the top of the Tory Party are not taking the vital issue of europe seriously.

"Let's not stop with Wheeler - let's have a proper clear out. Roger Helmer sails pretty close to the wind at times. I do hope the whips/cchq keep a list of all the loud-mouthed/disloyal Euronuts that linger, like a bad smell, in our Party. Why should we tolerate their antics?"

Extremists like you, Coxhall and HF speak for no-one but yourselves (and the Tory leadership of course).

The funny thing is that although the eurofanatical minority destroyed the Tory party over the issue of Europe (to say the party was 'divided' is laughable rubbish) almost none of them understood anything about how the EU actually worked or how deep its reach was. That was certainly true of people like Hestletine, Clarke and Howe. It is definitely the case with total numbskulls like Hinchcliffe. What I want to know is why are europhiles so ignorant about the EU? Why do they never seem to know anything about EU history, institutions or policy making. I have met ignorant Eurosceptics (like Nigel Farage) and Europhiles alike but never an informed europhile. The few people with any informed opinions on the subject (such as North and Booker) are those who advocate complete withdrawal.

If UKIP weren't so gloriously rubbish this might actually bother me. They can't do anything because no-one in Europe listens to them. Thats not to say that Conservatives are massively loved, but you only have to hear the cheers in the Dan Hannan vid to realise those in the EU take us fairly seriously.

Wheeler's opinions are his own, and thats fair enough, but at the end of the day he cant expect to give money to a rival and get away with it.
All this 'Oh, you're putting party before country' guff that UKippers are spouting is a bit pathetic. Their claims that Cameron's promise to fight the Lisbon Treaty are not 'good enough' seem to have missed the fact that if NuLab manage to entrench it in law, it will be very hard to get out of. Besides, what are they going to do? UKIP are far too small to make any difference. A referendum (as promised) would settle the matter quickly enough. Having actually studied Europe and its political systems in detail, it is obvious that the flaws and problems with the EU would not be solved by simply withdrawing. The penalties (particularly for British Trade and Business) would be high. What Europe needs is a proper opposition in the European Parliament, for a start, which this new group should be. Thats a good starting point for building a reforming European consensus. Shouting at Europe about how evil they are wont do anything.

On a side note, give it a few months and this economic crisis might just destroy the bits of Europe we dont like (the Single Currency, Franco-German Federalist domination of the EU), at least thats what The Economist seems to reckon.

I'm delighted, as somebody who absolutely supports the party's broadly eurosceptic policy of renogotiation, to have been called an 'extremist'.

I feel I have achieved something tonight, even if I can't put a name to it.

UKIP are a complete waste of time and if he wants to back them, that's fine. A waste of money in my opinion.

Posted by: Andrew S | March 29, 2009 at 21:37

For a party that will have been out of power 13 years by the next election, with success in the GE still open to question, its a bit rich having a go at others such as UKIP and the BNP. They may have no chance of winning, but by siphoning off votes like the Lib Dems, they can condemm the party to another period of opposition simply because the leadership think they can ignore the mood of the country, ignore their own natural supporters, and try to fob them off with half promises on contentious issues like Europe.
It ain't gonna work, but it seems it might take an electoral kicking before the message gets through.

"this is a site for the Conservative party"
So you can all scratch one another's backs, or perform more intimate acts, without any of that vulgar stuff like debating the fundamental principles of sovereignty & liberty? Seems to me as if many here haven't grown out of the YCs (shudder...) and look upon politics as a matter of cosy little clubs, rather than a (grubby but necessary) means to vitally important ends.

Hey, I'm quite capable of performing intimate acts on other Conservatives without needing an army of screeching UKIP yobs hurling ill-formed insults and grunting noises from the sidelines.

It scuppers my rhythm.


Good. One Euroseptic traitor down, 50% of the membership to go.

"Good. One Euroseptic traitor down, 50% of the membership to go."

I think its significantly hugher than 50%

In the past when discussing things with UKIPPERs they have been fairly adamant that they are a genuine party of national politics with a manifesto to address all issues. Today, I have see a few posts from UKIP supporters saying they are single issue on getting out of Europe. Which is it?
As MEPs they could refuse to sit in the European Parliament, which would mean Westminster would just ignore them and the PM of the day would sign whatever he felt like, so what good would that do? The chances of UKIP winning an effective Westminster presence seems extremely remote, so what is UKIP really about? More to the point what it can it realistically achieve?
Perhaps DC is right, that like it or not, the EU issue is a non-event in terms of effective British politicking.

Wheeler is absolutely right to put the EU question ahead of the Tories winning power.

More to the point what can it realistically achieve?-Snegchui. Nothing positive at all in my opinion Snegchui. They an if they are lucky ensure a few more Europhile MPs from the Lib Dem and Labour Parties are elected. If you notice most UKIPPERS spend a great deal of time attacking Conservatives both on blogs and in the press. They spend very little time attacking the Europhile parties.

"which would mean Westminster would just ignore them and the PM of the day would sign whatever he felt like"
Posted by: snegchui | March 29, 2009 at 23:01

Isn't this whats been happening since 1975.

"They spend very little time attacking the Europhile parties"

Posted by: Malcolm Dunn | March 29, 2009 at 23:20

So the Conservatives are what:

Euro Fellow Travellers
Euro Obsessives

I'm sure somebody in the party must know, the problem is the electorate don't..

A rich man cannot buy his way into a future British Government. Wheeler has made is choice.

If politics and the Conservative Party is to really change we need to make a stand on events like this.

Well done Eric!

Anybody willing to clarify the issue if UKIP are a single issue EU Political Party or a genuine UK Political Party?

Hi Tim,

You might not be still awake, however if you are. Can you shed on any light in the story that there are a few Conservative MP's going to follow him and defect? This is not me trying to antagonise, it is something I have genuinely been told by a senior figure at the FT. Of course it would be silly of them to do so but if he has had a major falling out with the party he might be talking about quite a lot of funding in the future for UKIP.

I think that very, very, very unlikely Josh.


UKIP are a genuine political party. We have a full range of policies and will be standing in most, if not all, seats in the GE. When canvassing I always take full lists of our policy commitments with me for people who still think of us as a single issue party. The MSM ignores this and use the shorthand of "Single issue party".
However, and this is a big however, NOTHING can be done to run the UK without withdrawal from the EU. This is the issue that the Conservatives, like Labour and the LibDems either do not get or ignore. The UK cannot do anything without at least the acquiescence of the EU. We believe the choice is simple. Either we govern our nation or we do not.
The underlying theme of the EU is "Ever closer union". We realise this means the end of the UK as an independent nation. It seems that Mr. Cameron et al, either deliberately or through plain ignorance, do not understand this.

I thought so too Tim. Some daughter of a senior figure at the FT who is a friend of mine just trying to be in the know. She claimed her father has told her that he is promising to put millions into UKIP and that will be enough to tempt the few that are disgruntled. Thank you for replying anyway, much appreciated. And one last thing. Do you ever sleep? haha

Well I'm glad I've not renewed my conservative membership if other members feel that in being one that you have to obey the one church and are banned from praying at another altar in your spare time.

This just seems to take us back to the old days of staunch party lines and is not where we should be as a nation.
He's a member, not a minister... the party isn't a union or employer; as such I don't see any incompatibility with not agreeing 100% on every issue.

Or has this board been infiltrated by labourites- a lot of comments seem to be complaining about his wealth and not obeying the leadership.
Will the real conservatives, please stand up.

>>Anybody willing to clarify the issue if UKIP are a single issue EU Political Party or a genuine UK Political Party?<<

Give it a rest, Snegchui.

I'm a Tory. I don't support UKIP or vote for them in any way. I do have a lot of sympathy for their views, but even if I didn't I would find it hard to sit by and say nothing at this sort of pointless badgering.

It's patently obvious to anybody who follows politics at all that UKIP are focused on a single issue.

UKIP does, after all, stand for UK Independence Party. The name says it all.

Which doesn't mean they can't also have a full manifesto. The two aren't mutually exclusive. The Independent Britain they dream of would, presumably, still need governing...

As I've said to you before, to win an argument you first have to make an argument.

As a former conservative party member who now finds himself in UKIP I will make a very rare contribution to this site.

Firstly I must say that the Conservative party are correct to expel Stuart Wheeler. Party membership is incompatible with supporting another party at an election.

However I find some of the comments in this, and previous posts, to be quite simply disgraceful. In 2001 Stuart Wheeler stepped up and delivered for the Conservative Party during one of it's darkest hours. When so few people were willing to give serious money to a party they knew would lose the general election it was Stuart who felt duty bound to do something. Acting out of the highest principle he made a huge donation to the party without which a decent campaign would not have been possible. All those people who are willing to give big money now are fair weather friends. They didn't give a damn in 2001 and in some cases were backing Blair.

Stuart is a genuine conservative, a patriot and a gentlemen. That so many seem to consider his inevitable and necessary expulsion from the Conservative Party as anything other than a matter of immense regret proves to me (as if I needed it) that I was absolutely right to leave the party.

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