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I don't think it's helpful either, Tim. Mr Taylor is fanning the flames and he really shouldn't! I am sure matters are in hand.

The Conservatives are already in disarray. With 12 months to go until the election, the British people will return to Labour and the experienced Gordon Brown, who is best placed to lead our country through this unprecedented global downturn.

By opposing Labour’s fiscal stimulus, the Conservatives have set themselves against providing real help now for families and businesses. They are committed not just to spending less in a time of need but also to spend less in the future. By doing nothing, they would deepen the downturn and delay the recovery, just as they did in the recessions of the 1980s and 1990s. They would make Britain weaker not stronger for the future.

The pro-Europeans are feeling giddier by the day. They've got Clarke back at the top table. They protected all the pro-EU MEPs from deselection. And now they see opportunity to expel Better Off Outers from the party. Their efforts at eurosceptic-cleansing must be resisted.

Why has Wheeler not been expelled yet?

Ian Taylor is a complete Eurofanatic, pro the euro of course. He is also in favour of the third runway at Heathrow. Do I need to say more?

"the British people will return to Labour and the experienced Gordon Brown, who is best placed to lead our country through this unprecedented global downturn."

Oh, you poor deluded Little Sossidge! You need help, badly..... Can I suggest you contact a very good psychotherapist called Draper? Oh, actually I am sure you know him already.

Sally, yes I have heard of Draper. Wasn't he the one who humiliated Guido Fawkes on the Politics Show, and then destroyed Dan Hannan on Channel 4, calling his rant a "typical Oxford Union Toryboy" piece, and a "demented speech from a demented party"? LOL!

I think we should be expelling Ian Taylor from the Conservatives, not Stuart Wheeler. Cameron's comments just show his ignorance of UKIP, whose membership is basically comprised of unsatisfied Tories. UKIP have everything to do with the Conservative party, and the Cameroons in charge to realise the party base is deeply anti Europe.

All pro-EU Tory MPs should be expelled for disloyalty to the UK.

"I have heard of Draper. Wasn't he the one who .....destroyed Dan Hannan on Channel 4?"

You should check into your local shrink for a reality check, Labour_Pride!

Labour Pride, if by 'destroying' you mean throwing around a load of class-based nonsense without actually addressing the issue at hand, then you're right.

If on the other hand you mean 'convincingly won the argument', then you are very much wrong.

"David Cameron has said that: "UKIP is sort of a bunch of ... fruitcakes and loonies and closet racists, mostly."

Every time that remake is let out of it cage, UKIP recruits another batch of members!

Labour_Pride, I can do no better than second David_at_Home's advice to you! You probably missed the bit on The Daily Politics where Andrew Neill told Draper very firmly to "shut up"!

More navel gazing on Conhome (you expect it from Dale). Hopefully the Conservative leadership will ignore all this nonsense and keep focus on the big issues (the Labour Party, the Economy etc.) and not let these petty minded spats distract them.

Wheeler is a pain in the neck, so by this account is Taylor. Ignore them.........

Now I'm off to find some rational political debate....

"David Cameron has said that: "UKIP is sort of a bunch of ... fruitcakes and loonies and closet racists, mostly."

Thanks a bunch Mr safe-seat of Esher (I might have known!) Taylor. Just the type of stupid comment that will send Traditionalist Tories into the arms of UKIP, especially at the Euro-Elections, and encourage those who might leave that party to sit tight.

I agree that Wheeler should be expelled, but as far as your intervention is concerned Mr Taylor, could I commend to you the advice given by Clem Attlee to Harold Laski, "A period of silence from you would be most beneficial at this time".

As for Labour Pride, he reminds me of Dr Goebbels who when the Russian Guns could be heard in Berlin from the Seelow Heights was showing a propaganda film with the Germans defeating their enemies. As an example of someone whistling in the dark Labour Pride is a classic.

And another thing about the despicable Taylor; he seeks to toady up to his leader by repeating the cheap "fruitcakes and closet racists jibe" about UKIP.

That will come back to haunt the Tories unless Mr. Cameron has the grace to withdraw it. But of course, politicians never apologise.Only gentlemen do.

This is NOT a thread about Derek Draper. Sigh.

Stuart Wheeler has supported the Conservative Party very well the past decade. It is clear that he feels strongly over Europe and it is an issue for him. So what? He clearly does not support the Labour Party and that surely is what matters. Do not follow the mistakes of the Labour party by knee jerk reactions. Have confidence in the Leadersship and stop fuelling the BBC. They are loving it

Stop! I am about to p*ss myself. :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

" He (Ian Taylor) is also in favour of the third runway at Heathrow."

As it happens I would also like to see an additional runaway for London's Airports but after some research into the matter I now feel that it should be at Gatwick and not Heathrow which I previously favoured. Unlike Heathrow, London Gatwick has open countryside around it for the most part, has already a North and South Terminal connected by a monorail, and first class road (M23) and rail links. So let's campaign for an extra Runway for London, but at LGW and not LHR!

Sorry Tim!

Taylor and his ilk are, by self admission what in an earlier age, we would have called traitors.

They should stay away from lamp posts.

When will ConHome learn the difference between Europe and the EU?

Using 'pro-Europe' instead of 'pro-EU' just helps the promote the dishonest frame used by eu-philes.

I am pro-European but don't support the EU.

Anyway, to the matter in hand. So CCHQ is actively discussing whether to kick eu-sceptic Wheeler out of the party for promoting UKIP, but has no such discussions to kick eu-phile Beazley out for joining the EPP.

Cameron never punishes eu-philes who break the rules, does he?

I am sure Cameron will be relieved to get the euros out of the way so he can drop this ghastly pretence of being 'eurosceptic'.

Can someone kindly find Henry a nappy? :-)

Stuart Wheeler should certainly NOT be expelled from the Party. Instead the matter should be quietly ignored and Conservative leadership should have a long serious think about the EU.

All of us should be very careful that we do not assume that we have the election in the bag. I can see, if there is a slight upturn in the economy, people will think better the devil we know....

The Conservative leadership is being given the benefit of the doubt at the moment, but don't count on that lasting. Natural Conservative voters are very worried at much that comes out of the Conservative HQ.

When has Beazley endorsed a party standing against the Conservatives? And remember the Conservatives in the European Parliament as a whole are currently in the EPP-ED grouping - moving within it is not the same level of offence as leaving the group let alone endorsing a rival party.

@ToryBlog etc

Agreed on pro-Europe/ pro-EU distinction. Sorry.

The Pro-European Tories have not urged support for a rival party. That's the difference. They've fought from within the Conservative Party. A lesson for the secessionists.

"When has Beazley endorsed a party standing against the Conservatives??

Lol. Wake up Nose-Pickering.

Wheeler is a donor not an employee of the party and has broken no rules.

Beazley is an elected official who has clearly broken the party line by unilaterally jumping ship to the EPP.

So the one who has broken no rules, has donated millions of his own money to the party (in contrast to being an elected piggy) and has only taken this action after exhausting every possible attempt to 'fight for change within' but believes country comes before party is the one the mob is demanding to be kicked out?

You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Putting party before country reinforced why the current political class needs to be swept away.

And to add insult to injury, you want Piggy Pickles to do the deed.

You couldn't make it up.

Ian Taylor recognises that Cameron's Tories are the reincarnation of John Stevens's Pro-European Conservative Party. They are truly EUseless in Brussels and Strasbourg.

As a British Conservative MP, Ian Taylor would do better to be "pro-Britain" rather than "pro-Europe".

But in fact he's not even "pro-Europe"; he's "pro-EU", which is an entirely different matter.

There are plenty of people who've grasped that if you do want to be "pro-Europe", you must be "anti-EU".

I might ask, what should happen to prominent Tories who either:

a) Openly oppose the official party policy that the Lisbon Treaty should be put to a referendum; or

b) Openly oppose the official party policy that the UK must remain in the EU.

Well, whatever should happen, what actually happens is this:

a) Somebody who openly opposes a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is promoted to the front bench; while

b) Anybody who openly opposes British membership of the EU will never be promoted to the front bench.

What does that say about who really controls the Tory party?

Not the grassroots Tory members, that's for sure.

"Agreed on pro-Europe/ pro-EU distinction. Sorry."

No worries. Calling pro-EU supporters 'pro-Europe' is about as accurate as using 'pro-Economy' to describe supporters of Labour's economic policies.


Well said!

And I am sure there will be some fudge EPP-exit solution after the euros following the secret Cameron-Barroso meeting, that will enable Cameron to claim to have delivered 'the letter' of his pledge whilst clearly failing in the spirit.

I can't quite pin it down, what he is going to do yet, but it won't be the clean exit members are expecting.

In reply to ToryBlog.com, I am so glad to see that you are above resorting to childish playground name calling in lieu of making serious points.

Beazeley is still a member of the EPP-ED grouping in the European Parliament, unlike Roger Helmer and Daniel Hannan, the grouping which the Conservatives are members of. The EPP part of the grouping is not in electoral competition with us and the party line is that we sit with them until the election. Where an MEP sits within that group is hair splitting - and I might add that all three MEPs retain the whip. Shall we expel all three? (No I don't think there will be many endorsing that, but it will be on no consistent principle of rules, it will be on their respective popularities.) Can you cite exactly what rule Beazeley has broken? Or are you just after a Stalinist ideological purge?

Wheeler is a party member and one of the basic rules of parties is that you do not endorse the opposition. Wheeler has clearly broken the rules. Party discipline must be enforced and the rule applied fairly to everyone.

Ian Taylor it was by being patronising and divisive at a Constituency branc meeting here in Acton who so enraged half the audience that we were the nucleus of the UKIP branch in the 3 seats of Ealing. [As UKIP degenerated into a self-seeking cabal I abandoned UKIP to be what I am now - a would-be Tory again!)

The man is totally sold out to the anti-democratic soviet that is the EU. If anybody should be expelled from the party it is Ian Taylor

It is people like him who have ensured that a majority of the party's MEPs will be europhile and they've done this by rigging the list system.

Perhaps we should be expelling Ian Taylor. After all, it is HE who is at odds with the vast majority of the party.

And whereas Stuart Wheeler has always been an advantage to this party-helping to pay for the campaigns to return good Tory MPs to parliament; by contrast Ian Taylor has spent the last years doing nothing but whinging and embarrassing this party and trying to undermine the leadership on Europe.

No it's the groups who tried to stitch up the selection process and enact ideological purges by busing in members to regional selection meetings last time who are responsible for the system this time.

And for all the whining about sitting MEPs being difficult to deselct, sitting MPs are equally hard to deselect and never by the grassroots membership. But for some reason people always demand different standards be applied for anything to do with Europe!

As a Tory supporter, I can understand Mr Wheeler's action. It is VERY important however that the party doesn't over-react, as perhaps 3/5ths of Conservative voter's feel exactly the same and expulsion could decimate their poll ratings! That isn't to say that a similar percentage of LD and Labour supporters don't feel the same either - I'm sure they do, but they are generally less likely to vote for UKIP. Given that around 70% of the population are less pro-Europe than the main parties, expulsion of MR Wheeler would be shooting ourselves in the foot. 2 out of every 3 of my friends say they will vote for UKIP in the Euro elections, but almost all will vote Conservative in a general election. All the main parties underestimate the anti-Europe feeling, particularly given the current economy and the amounts wasted by the EU. Personally, like most, I am not 100% decided about EU membership and could easily be persuaded to get out - particularly if it was a choice of that or more political union. Without exception, everyone I speak too who was old enough to vote for the EEC feel both betrayed and that they were mis-sold the concept. Politicians from all sides need to accept and address that fact and most importantly, give the electorate a free voice. Until they do, UKIP will continue to 'borrow' many voters like Mr Wheeler.

Personally - I have never understood the Conservative Party's control and command centre.

The whole point about political parties is that debate should be open, democratic and welcomed. When you have an inert Conference and Central Council that ensures democracy doesn't even make it onto the first page of how to run a good Conservative Party - then it is not surprising that Stuart Wheeler and others get frustrated.

I've never seen the problem with the Conservative Party pledging to hold a referendum on the future role of the Uk and Europe, including an option to withdraw. Only those who are worried about the legitimacy of their arguments in a such a debate would wish to avoid the subject and would not have the will to test their arguments with the public.

I've had my disagreements with Stuart in the past, but that doesn't mean that he should be expelled from the party - if it did then the same would have to apply to every member of the Conservative Party who voted for UKIP in the European elections. I suspect that if it was not a secret ballot you'd discover that a huge percentage of members would be up for mass expulsion and the Conservative Party would no longer be the Country's largest political Party.

This strikes me as being the same insecurities within the Conservative Party hierarchy that prevented Dan Hannen from debating with Nigel Farage at last year's party conference.

Better to ask for a dermocratic Conservative Party where these topis can be openly discussed and voted upon and where necessary part policy changed. If the policy was to hold a referendum on Europe with an option that incuded withdrawal, then UKIP would disappear overnight and We'd be the befeciaries of Stuart's £100K.

"The EPP part of the grouping is not in electoral competition with us

Um, did you miss the bit about leaving the EPP and forming another euro-group?

Wheeler has clearly broken the rules
Which rule has he broken? Can you quote it?

Don't give me any of this 'spirit of membership' crap, has he actually broken a defined rule of membership?

I believe I am right in saying that before the last general election Taylor had to face a deselection move by party members who objected to his views. Next constituency to mine.

He survived and of course won, but there must be many in the constituency who are still unhappy and his recent behaviour won`t help him.

It is most useful to UKIP to have Cameron's foolish,childish and NASTY remarks repeated in the current election period.Thank you Ian,YOU WILL BE QUOTED.
The party is still nasty then Theresa!

Wheeler has my support and so does UKIP come June.

Why does Cameron always side with the Europhiles?

Ian Taylor is my MP and I think the Conservatives should expel him, not Stuart Wheeler.

I note that Mr. Wheeler said he was lending his vote to UKIP in the European Parliament Elections but also endorsed Conservative Candidates in the County Council elections being held on the same day and re-affirmed he would be supporting Conservative Candidates in the General Election.
Assuming he will continue to be as generous with his largesse to the Conservatives prior to this to date "one-off" donation, once the elections to elect a blowhard in Bruusels is over, shall we accept future donations? It is fair to ask at this time, are such donations that have been made, been sent by Mr.Wheeler personally or one of his companies?
If its at his previous rate, you bet that the Party Treasurer will find some way.
Actually expelling someone can be a long process (and may well take until after June) but what Constituency is Mr. Wheeler a member of? The Area Officer will have to prepare a report to that Constituency's Management Commitee and the Executive of that Constituency will have to vote on the matter by secret ballot. Who says it will carry? A number of constituency association over the years have taken short cuts in the expulsion process (and paid for it). As they're taking on a millionaire, every dot and every "T" has better be correct.

Let Stuart Wheeler take his money where he pleases; he's said he'll back us at the General and that's good enough for me.

This is a side issue. Voters rate the EU somewhere in between 5-a-day coordinators and Earth Hour in their list of things they care about, ie they don't give two hoots.

We all know they should give too hoots, but they don't.

Therefore, can we get on with the business of explaining to people how we're going to dig Britain out of Gordon Brown's debt crisis?

If the Conservative party followed its instincts it would promise UK withdrawal from the EU and probably win a landslide victory at the next election. If Thatcher was leader I am sure that is what she would do.The trouble is we have girly Cameron and his cadre of patsy gutless chinless wonders who would not know a moral principle if it kicked them in the teeth.

fruitcakes and loonies and closet

That quote is about a year old -- 12 months is a very long time in politics.

There must be a critical mass - whereby so many people leave the tory party that they decide they don't need to return...

All the in fighting I love it

ToryBlog: It is the party's intention to leave the EPP-ED grouping and form a new grouping but it hasn't happened yet. And the EPP Europarty (a different thing from the grouping) is not in electoral competition with us - it has no affiliates in the UK. Beazeley has not called for people to vote against the Conservative party. This is not a breach of this particular rule.

I would quote the exact wording of the rule that Wheeler has broken, but the Party constitution does not appear to be online. However the back of my membership card (a standard CCO issued one) states:

"Membership of the Conservative Party is not compatible with membership of, or association with, any other registered political party." (My emphasis.)

Wheeler's actions are a clearcut association with another registered political party and thus in breach.

michael mcgough: What about Nigel Farage's infamous quote "We will never win the n***** vote. The n**-n**s will never vote for us"? I bet he won't be repeating that!

Giving money to another party is no reason to expel anyone from the Conservative Party: if it were the Party would be expelling huge numbers of Conservative Councillors who participate fully in their local communities by attending functions arranged by friends of other political persuasions.

All the in fighting I love it

Posted by: Tim White | March 29, 2009 at 15:56

Tory Inn fighting?

Just watch the Labour pub brawl as Dunfermline BS melts down in Gordon's own back yard whilst the G20 humiliates our global saviour to a backdrop of batons and riot shields as the consequences of Labour misgovernment spew across London's streets on April Fool's day.

We won't get fooled again. As that mullet haired chap once said.

Tim Nose-Pickering,
If you want to start throwing those quotes about, just remind me who *Conservative* activist Michael Ediae was referring to when he spoke (on 18DS) of that person saying one of the most racist things *anyone* has ever said?

Oh yes, that would be Mr Cameron.

I think Ian Taylor is right to want to expel him. Stuart Wheeler clearly believes that national sovereignty is important so he can have no place in the dynamic forward-looking modern Conservative Party.

Good riddance to Wheeler - he behaves like a spoilt child who takes his ball
away unless he's allowed to be in charge. Surely most Conservatives should realise that we are a member of the European union, that we should and are going to remain a member,and that it is most certainly in the country's best short, medium and long term interests that we do so. Also you can only change the running of a club from the inside and by true co-operation with the other members. People like Wheeler are purely control freaks who try and manipulate everything to their own ends. The party should have nothing to do with him - let him go back to his spread betting activities and sulk. UKIP and him are made for each other - both being a complete irrelevance to real life.


"I don't think it's helpful to resurrect that David Cameron quote": could you please expand on this. Why is it not helpful Tim? Do you not agree with what Cameron said?

Tim Roll Pickering;I cannot recall that coded quote but I do recall the Mayor of London.one Boris Johnson referring to 'picaninnies'(sp ??).Do you?

Can it be long before Taylor is on the front bench beside Clarke?

I don't imagine that the expulsion of Stuart Wheeler will matter very much to him and this is certainly not going to deter any members from voting UKIP (or BNP)at either the Euro or General elections if they feel strongly enough about the EU.
If anything it will create a mood of deliberate defiance amongst many who would not otherwise have reacted.

It is not the members of political parties
who influence the outcome of elections
( apart from contributing to party finances), but the party activists, who form only a very small proportion of the membership, but usually hold very much stronger views about party policies.
If these activists reflect the predominantly eurosceptic views of the ordinary membership of the party, CCHQ may well find that they have shot themselves in the foot by over reacting to Stuart Wheeler's decision.

Banning membership of any other party,( or even voting for them), is a very shortsighted policy. Many people who are seriously interested in politics will join more than one party, either to be able to participate in debates or to investigate their policies and learn more about them. If, ultimately, those other partie's policies seem more sincere or practical and win that member's vote upon one occasion, then why antagonise them from subsequently changing their mind, and also lose their ongoing subscriptions?

Not sure I understand why this debate is rumbling on. Wheeler is clearly a man of principle so he cannot be allowed to stay in the Tory Party.

"ToryBlog" (or, given who is the only other handle that keeps raising this point on ConservativeHome, should I say "Chad Noble"?), as ever your ability to avoid crude insults astounds me.

You are referring to one person's criticism of some speech, a very different thing from a direct quote.

You should look at the CP website on Europe. It is pretty explicit. I would rather see reform of the EU than leave it as I believe that there many advantages of close ties with our European neighbours.

What many of us find intolerable are the grandiose plans for European statehood, the increasing powers of Brussels over our purely domestic activities being the second biggest contributor to the EU budget.

If Cameron can tough it out with the EU and fulfill his promises on the Social chapter and return of powers to Westminster, while remaining in the EU, that is a far better road than mere withdrawal.

The problem is that he will be resisted tooth and nail and the pressure applied to Ireland by the EU will look like a caress compared to what is going to come our way. If he cannot get some reform of the EU and restoration of some of our powers, then I believe there should be a referendum on EU membership.

"The Pro-European Tories have not urged support for a rival party"

No they went one further and supported the Labour party in the lobbies and joined Blair and Brown on a platform!

I thought this party was concerned to represent the views of the majority of the British people. Here is what the people said in a recent poll for the BBC Daily Politics show:

1. The current economic crisis has made me more likely to support Britain joining the Euro

Agree- 31%
Disagree- 64%

2. Britain benefits overall from membership of the European Union in terms of jobs and trade

Agree- 44%
Disagree- 51%

3. Britain should leave the EU but maintain close trading links

Agree- 55%
Disagree- 41%

4. The British people should decide in a vote before Britain transfers any further power to the European Union

Agree- 84%
Disagree- 13%

As a foot soldier to the cause, why is it that once we get ourselves in a good position we are always undone by one of our own.

Mr Wheeler gave money to the Conservatives at a time when others thought much differently - his overall views on the EU are shared by every activist I know.

The question activists need addressing is why the likes of Ian Taylor MP manage to keep such a safe seat when they are clearly out of touch with the membership?

I've never heard of someone who is a member of one party simulatenously supporting another party in a forthcoming nation-wide election.

A few years ago you could make such absurd claims about UKIP "loonies, fruitcakes etc" and people, without the benefit of the internet, might have believed you.

Now, they can check your claims, and if you say such absurd things, you just look like a fool, and your efforts backfire.

In their attempts to verify the claim, they might stumble across the speeches of Nigel Farage, and wonder what you are talking about.

The idea that one cannot be a UKIP supporter AND a Conservative party supporter is absurd. UKIP are a single issue party dedicated to removing us from the EU, and the Conservative party are a domestic party for the governance of the UK.

Speaking as a conservative, I of course recognise the sinister, totalitarian, militant secularist nature of the EU, and want us out of it. The Conservative party should, of course, be offering us that, at least in a referendum.

I'll try to be succint on my views on Mr Wheeler - while the Editor is right that he has donated to the Party in difficult times, and we shoud be retrospectively grateful for that, his public contributions in the media in recent years have been unhelpful at best and self-indulgent clap-trap at worst.

No Party donor has the right to buy policy, and Mr Wheeler appears to be throwing all of his toys out of the pram because he's not getting his particular chew-toy. Not principled, just petulant.

In respect of his expulsion from the Party, I would be in favour of it, but as I believe every member is now a member of their local Association, regardless of how they joined, this might well be a matter for his local Executive, which I will respect:

Part 2: Membership of the Conservative Party is not compatible with Membership of or association with any other registered political party.

Shedule 7,article 3.5: The Officers of the Association may move before the Executive Council the suspension or termination of membership of the Association of any member whose declared opinions or conduct shall, in their judgement, be inconsistent with the objects or financial well-being of the Association or be likely to bring the Party into disrepute. Similarly, the Officers may move the refusal of membership of the Association for the same reasons. Following such a motion, the Executive Council may by a majority vote suspend, terminate or refuse membership for the same reason.

Sorry, Mr Wheeler, you may be a rich idiot, but you're still an idiot. You really think you can donate to or campaign for an OPPOSITION party and keep your membership of the Conservative Party?

I couldn't do that if I wanted to (which I don't) - why the on earth should the likes of you?

Hurrah! This is excellent news! Why not have Ian Taylor back on the front bench? He was a brilliant minister (science).

Calm down dears. It's only 5 million quid!

Tim Roll-Pickering is right to state that "Membership of the Conservative Party is not compatible with membership of, or association with, any other registered political party."

Perhaps that should have been a factor for CCHQ to address when Tony Lit was pressed as the candidate in Ealing Southall for "David Cameron's Conservatives" - a party I had not previously heard of. That of course followed Mr Lit having donated money to the Labour Party by attending one of their expensive fund raising dinners. But I digress.

The party is right to ensure that enforces its constitution and that its members are not supporters of other parties. I do not think anyone can complain about Wheeler's expulsion because he is actively funding UKIP candidates trying to defeat Conservative candidates.

Seeing as Ian Taylor MP states that "we are firmly in favour of reforming the EU from within," perhaps he could explain how?

I am eager to understand this masterplan about just how we can reform something that the overwhelming number of (federalist) MEPs, Council Members, Heads of State and others believe needs to be even more closely integrated and powerful that it is today. Over to you Mr Taylor.

Yes Ian Taylor is right Wheeler should be expelled. So should Christopher Beazley and unless she explains herself toot sweet so should Caroline Jackson.

Typo correction "...believe needs to be even more closely integrated and powerful than it is today." Looking forward to your reply Mr Taylor.

If you want to throw out all Tory members who support UKIP in Euro elections you will have a pretty small party afterwards! I suspect party members visiting this site will know of many of their members who abandon their party whenever the EU is the subject as they simply cannot bear the smell of the official policy.

It was precicely because of pro-EU creeps like Taylor, Clarke, Howe, Hurd, Patten (I could go on)that I ditched the Tories 8 years ago and went to UKIP.
(Best days work I ever did)
Many of my former Tory colleagues who ALL share my views still believe that the Tories will be forced into a more eurosceptic stance - rubbish.
We have now three main parties who ALL believe in EU membership. The Tories are not the solution they remain PART OF THE PROBLEM.

Could someone explain how one can be pro-European but anti-EU? What qualities are being ascribed to "Europe" which make it more than a geographical entity and worthy of advocacy? If I were to describe myself as an admirer of French culture and customs, but as having deep concerns about the history and cultural tendencies of one of France's most powerful neighbours, while valuing most greatly the historical and cultural bonds between the English speaking democracies, then where would that leave me?

gordon brown dislikes the british. he and his admirers have conived with the eu to destroy britain from within. just look at the facts. he has signed us to join the eu already. he has destroyed our industry. he has given us away.

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