Dominic Grieve calls for fresh thinking on multiculturalism as he condemns a decade of political correctness

Dominic Grieve, the shadow Justice secretary,  will today make a hard-hitting attack on political correctness and the Government's failure to question damaging aspects of multiculturalism. But he also admits that the Right has so far failed to credibly address some of those issues.

Speaking at Queen Mary, University of London, he will characterise the decade of this Labour Government as:

"A decade of ranking people as members of neatly categorised ethnic, religious or social groups, rather than treating everyone as an individual in their own right; a decade of courting self-appointed heads of minority groups and pandering to special interest lobbies, ignoring the range of opinions and depth of diversity in modern Britain; and a decade of stifling difficult debate, under a blanket of political correctness, that marginalises those ill at ease with prevailing dogma or accepted ‘progressive’ wisdom.”

He will highlight his concern that people no longer feel able to decide what is right and wrong - citing a "disinclination to criticise attitudes which are morally unacceptable to a modern western tradition" such as forced marriages:

"The reluctance to exercise reasonable judgment and to criticise or challenge negative cultural imports into our country, including discriminatory practices against women and corrupt political and electoral practices, is one of the most troubling consequences of a culture that wishes to avoid offence and accusations of racism."

Whilst applauding greater diversity, Mr Grieve suggests that there needs to be more integration and interaction between different groups in society:

"It is through contact and the constant exchange of views and opinions that we moderate each other’s attitudes and behaviour. Creating that contact, breaking down ghettos of the mind and instilling confidence in our ability to learn from each other are the essentials.   Greater diversity within our society must be recognised and applauded.  But it seems to me that the zealous regulation of conduct, the imposition of state-defined orthodoxy on public and private conscience and the overburdening of law and regulation, have the consequence of undermining that confidence and are deterring participation and engagement."

“Multiculturalism was intended to create a more cohesive and friendlier society by facilitating bringing people together. But instead the laws and concepts underlying it seem to me to drive people apart endangering our traditional sense of community based on common values."

He will also accuse Labour of having waged war on the "historic sense of Britishness":

"In schools, the dumbing down of history has resulted in a system where the teaching of a narrative of British history has all but vanished. Instead of children being taught to have respect for past events and individuals who have shaped their lives, they are encouraged to be contemptuous of people who did not live up, in their own era, to the then unknown values of modern Britain. I am convinced that this approach has hindered more recent immigrants to this country developing a sense of belonging."

He also appears to admit that the Conservatives have to date failed to respond adequately to the issues he is raising:

"The lack of a credible response from the mainstream right to the current issues of multiculturalism has now left a gap, which is being filled by extremist voices. UKIP and the British National Party have taken advantage to suggest policies not based on a reasoned morality but which play on fear and encourage hatred."

These are robust words from Mr Grieve and he is to be praised for delivering this message. I certainly expect all those who have been concerned about his previously stated support for the Human Rights Act will find a huge deal here with which to find common cause.

Jonathan Isaby

Comments

[Iain]

The political class are years behind the times, this subject was dealt with years ago on the Today messageboard....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbfivelive/F2767107?thread=3285363

[Mr Disgusted]

It's easy to be brave when the BNP are breathing down your neck, the Conservative Party should have stuck to its guns 10yrs ago instead of being cowed into silence.

The damage is done now and all you are offering is some feeble damage limitation exercise.

[bill]

The electorate knows that the Conservatives have been playing Labour's political correctness game for more than a decade. Grieve's statement looks like what is is...opportunism.

[Anthony Scholefield]

'Greater diversity must be applauded'.Oh dear,do these politicians ever think through their statements or do they think in cliches as well as speak in them,as Alfred Sherman once contended.
Perhaps we should also recall the words of David Cameron'Not for the first time (sic),I found myself thinking that it is mainstream Britain which needs to integrate more with the British Asian way of life,not the other way around'.(Observer 13 May 2007,following a stay with a Muslim family).
So Grieve wants more diversity while Cameron wants(leaving aside the fantastic differences between the way of life practised by Asian Christians Bhuddhists Hindus and Muslims-they seem to be all the same to him)Britain to integrate more with the Muslim way of life.
Not quite sure what to do,integrate with Muslim culture as Cameron wants,have more diversity which is Grieves first proposition or may be listen to the fear and hatred which Grieve feebly and without any reference ascribes to UKIP and BNP.
Why dont these people look up the speeches of leading politicians in the past and see how detailed and referenced they were,how they considered and gave an analysis of other ideas but for goodness sake stop thinking and speaking cliches.

[Jack Iddon]

Too little too late old chap! These bloody socialists with the assistance and insistence of very vocal immigrant groups coupled with the connivance or at least the turning of a blind eye by The Conservatives for the last fifteen or twenty years, a generation lets say, have already destroyed the British nature of this country. We are afraid to speak openly of our concerns on these issues, I cant beleive this has happened but it has and we have let it. Ask a 12 year old who Drake, Raleigh, Harold Hardrada, Queen Victoria or Charles 1st were, or what Magna Carta is and they will look blank. They don't know. How do you destroy a nation? You begin by not teaching history to the young and denying them the knowledge of the origin of their standards and values and the sacrifices that were made in order to make this country what it once was. These people have done this!

[stephen hoffman]

whilst im not a supporter of UKIP i think it is extremely disingenous of Dominic Grieve to equate Ukip to the BNP.

Multiculturalism is a bad concept end of , it encourages separateness ghettoised communities and division, instead integration as Trevor Phillips has said in the past should happen.

[Ed West]

He's right, of course, but I'd hardly call it hard-hitting. Even hardcore liberals, if there's such a thing, are now suggesting that tolerating wife-beating and forced marriages arent quite the thing.

Also, I wish the Conservative Party would stop using the language of the left - MPs should have a swear box and put a coin in every time they use a leftie keyword - I'd make "diversity" worthy of a £10 fine.

[David Graves-Moore]

Of course Dominic Grieve is right, as far as he goes. Quite frankly, the multi-cultural agenda has been an unmitigated disaster for Britain. The virtual elimination of the teaching of history has helped to remove a sense of being British, and the political left have been allowed to get away with denigrating just about everything British.
Unfortunately the Conservative Party is just as guilty as the political left. Far too many of our members, and particularly our MPs, have been afraid to stand up against such vandalism. To make matters worse, we are not speaking only of past errors. The shameful way that the Party has manipulated the selection process for candidates is unforgivable.
We should treat all people as equal, regardless of their race, colour or sex.

[John France]

Full marks to Mr Grieve for recognising there is a problem and attempting to address it! Even if it is a wee bit late. Let us hope the Trevor Philips et al. read Mr Greive's words!!!

[Letters From A Tory]

I hear more and more complaints from politicians about political correctness but I don't hear any solutions.

It's all very well saying that they think the situation has to change, but notice that Grieve and Blears and all the rest of them refuse to name names or cite examples for fear of, well, upsetting someone.

[Jane Gould]

agree with John France. it's never too late to do / say the right thing. Fully support this initiative. we have to claw back the ground we have given to UKIP.

[David Bean]

Well, after all that bluster from so many previous commentators all I can say is that Dominic Grieve is exactly right, these are excellent points made very well, and his speech deserves to be publicised widely. The Conservative Party got several things wrong over the past decade, and wasn't in a position to do anything about several others, this issue in my opinion being one of those. So I reckon it's time to applaud a man who stands up and says the right things now, and hope, expect and encourage him to follow through with policies designed to put an alternative vision into place across our country.

Then again we could, of course, just find some random remark made by David Cameron several years ago, and condemn the Party as hopeless based on that...

[steve foley]

Whilst I agree that for too long the Conservative Party has sat on its hands whilst the Left have forced Orwellian PC Newspeak upon us, should we not rejoice that Dominic Grieve has at last picked up the torch rather than rubbish him for his efforts?

Hopefully a Conservative Government will roll back some of the more ludicrous examples of PC.

[Rare Breed]

Excellent speech.

Difference between this and Blears' bleatings is that this is based on the traditional liberal conservatism of Mill, Milton etc.

It shows a clear basis in proper conservative principles and is welcome from a shadow minister who has been a bit quiet. Seems to be finding his feet.

[Hugh Oxford]

This is the irony - you live by identity politics, you die by identity politics.

New Labour started categorising everyone into men, women, Asian, black, homosexual, transvestite, disabled, Muslim, blah blah blah and suddenly the white British majority decide they want a bit of the hot diversity action and lo and behold - I give you the BNP.

"Diversity" is not a strength, it's a weakness. It's a liability to live in a society where people are defined by what divides them rather than by what unites them, it's social and cultural suicide to emphasise difference rather than similarity.

Jack Iddon - well said. This is why the far left have clung to the education system like limpets to a rock - they know that's where the real power to destroy western society lies - not in the corridors of power but in the corridors of schools. Conservative governments have found this bunch of thugs completely intractable, and the most commendable aspect of modern Conservative policy is drastic education reform.

[peter]

To suggest that UKIP is "encouraging hatred" is nonsense, and shows either that Grieve lacks judgment or doesn't care how he tries to damage people not prepared to follow his deceptive gang.

[timforchange]

@Anthony Scholefield You are putting words into David Cameron's mouth. The article you reference in the Observer is here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/may/13/comment.communities

Cameron is not saying that we should import an entire alternative moral or religious system from British Asians, but rather that he sees in the traditional values that are evident in British Asian families something that has been lost from British non Asian families and communities.
Prior to the line you quote he says, "Asian families and communities are incredibly strong and cohesive, and have a sense of civic responsibility which puts the rest of us to shame." His comments are completely consistent.

I think it is vital that the Conservative party address these issues now and I would ask those who are saying 'too little, too late' what would you do (not what would you have DONE) differently? There are major issues that need to be addressed in this country, a number of which have become sensitive issues. I whole heartedly welcome the beginning of this debate in the party, a debate that has been stifled by not wanting to offend or to be seen as the nasty party.
The Conservative party should be confident enough to defend the British way of life. Something which the majority of immigrant communities came here to be part of (and have done for centuries). Conservative policies should recognise (as Cameron and Grieve do) that immigrant communities do have a lot to offer, whilst still willing to help foster a sense of British-ness.

The Conservatives do need to firmly communicate their policies on these and other sensitive issues. We need to tighten the lax immigration and border control that Labour have presided over. We need to balance the rate of immigration to the physical and economic resources available in this country.

We didn't lose the 1997 election because we didn't uphold British values, we lost it because party had run out of ideas and the country no longer trusted us. We can win the 2010 election and we should now grasp the opportunity to debate and put in place policies that will arrest the decline of British values.

[Man in the Street]

Demolition jon on Brown and the Government here in the Times. Tells you all you need to know.

The Times Demolishes the last pillars of the Brown government

[Edward Huxley]

Mr. Grieve connects UKIP with policies "which play on fear and encourage hatred".

Sorry chum, you`ve got it wrong. UKIP is strongly against the European Union, not against Europe and foreigners, we just want to control our own borders. That is not racist and I think most of your party members will agree with me.

We want to go back to being ruled by Westminster, not Brussels.

[Iain]

"I think it is vital that the Conservative party address these issues now and I would ask those who are saying 'too little, too late' what would you do (not what would you have DONE) differently? "

Do, did? one and the same, I and people like me sought to challenge the cultural marxist concept of multiculturalism in debtate and argument, when it was likely that you would be called a racist for doing so, this at a time when Conservative politicians went missing, or capitualted to this cultural marxist policy by advocating multiculturalism themselves. You start by challenging Multiculturalims, call it what it is, Triblaism, then argue passionately with fire in your belly for the scoiety you do want to see.

But this is no more than what I was saying in 2006 and before on the BBC Today messageboard...

"I am happy to rail against it, it is a contemptuous and loathsome idea, especially here. Our society was built up on individual rights and representation, multiculturalism on the other hand is just another term for tribalism, where one has to belong to a specific 'community' to have a voice. So with a choice of individual rights or tribalism, my choice is the former, for the back woods reactionaries who want to turn the clock back to tribalism...well I my thoughts on it wouldn't get past the censor. "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbtoday/F2767107?thread=3285363&skip=0&show=20

[Hugh Oxford]

Cameron is not saying that we should import an entire alternative moral or religious system from British Asians, but rather that he sees in the traditional values that are evident in British Asian families something that has been lost from British non Asian families and communities.

And here's something for you to mull over.

To what extent has the radicalisation of British Muslims been a response to the anti-Christian, counter cultural and frankly immoral innovations of New Labour? If democracy delivers "gay marriage", 28 week abortion time limits, embryonic vivisection, contraception and abortion to children in schools, gay adoption and IVF - who wants democracy? To quote the Koran - "ye are people who have transgressed all limits".

The way I see it is this. If you had come to the UK in the fifties and sixties from the Indian subcontinent, you would have been coming to a broadly conservative society, one not incompatible with your own. But by the time "Catholic" Blair had finished with this country, it was a moral and social quagmire. Without trying to condone Islamic fundamentalism, I can understand the flight to it, just as I can understand the flight of the white mainstream to the BNP.

[GB£.com]

Dominic Grieve is quite correct; UKIP are the evil spawn of the devil and must be smeared at every opportunity before the euro-elections.

Of course, I also look forward to collecting my £20 off Malcolm when the Tories are still in the EPP at the end of the year...

[J.Earland]

Well done Mr.grieves.
If ONLY he could only convince his leader and others in his opposition cabinet to think the same way instead of trying to sit on the fence.
In the next elextion the vast number of thinking voters will express thier view to the Conservitive for thier sitting on the fence outlook

[Tom Wilde]

I gave up supporting UKIP specifically because I found their immigration policy too illiberal. Despite that, I think Mr Grieve's attempt to bracket UKIP with the BNP on this issue is not merely unfair but is self-servingly dishonest. Unlike the BNP, UKIP do not base their policies on fear and hatred and it is outrageous to suggest that they do. Is Grieve that afraid of UKIP?

[Robert Feal-Martinez]

Amazing isn't it how seasoned politicians simply do not understand the simple political playing field. The BNP are a far left, racist, white supremacist party, where as UKIP is a party who believes in Britain Governing itself, and deciding who we allow into the UK. It is notable that very few Politicians even mention Australia's approach to migration.

UKIP wants a country free to trade with Europe but free to trade also with the rest of the world. All three main parties have set off on a 'fear' agenda, trying to link the BNP and UKIP. Nigel Farage of UKIP has made it abundantly clear there will never be a tie up between the parties. 75% of the population as a whole want out of the EU the three main parties are running scared as the only moderate Party offering that is UKIP.

[michael mcgough]

What a pathetic ,ill informed speech.Clearly this fence sitting Tory is very very worried by UKIP as he should be.Is this the beginning of a NASTY Euro election campaign from the NASTY party.Coupled with recent hatchet jobs by paid lackeys of the Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph I feel the first dirt of the campaign has been slung.A glasshouse with no coherent policy on Europe is looking vulnerable.
tick tock

[Prodicus]

Good for Grieve. Better now than never. Ignore the told-you-so booing and the heckling. Just say it. It will be welcomed with relief by commonsense people (strangers to some of the anorak audience here) who want to vote Tory.

[UKIP@HOME]

Lets take a closer look at what UKIP members get upto shall we:-

UKIP Dudley campaigned to stop a Mosque being built. UKIP in London campaigned against a mosque being built. UKIP in Devon take out a newspaper advert attacking Muslims. UKIP MEP campaigning for British Muslims to remove sections of the Quaran. UKIP candidate in Woking calls the Quran a book of fairy tales and attacks local council for having a Muslim woman on from of the council magazine.

These are just a few of the things the non racist non sectarian UKIP gets upto.

Not like the BNP at all then.

[Hugh Oxford]

These are just a few of the things the non racist non sectarian UKIP gets upto.

Of course you'd expect, and hope, for UKIP to oppose Islamisation. The whole idea behind UKIP is that people in Britain live under the rule of law as decided by the UK Parliament, not by Brussels or a seventh century religious tract and a bunch of self appointed foreign clerics under a global Ummah.

[Mara MacSeoinin]

What we have been seeing over the past ten years is not multiculturalism, but socialism at work; the careful fostering of various agendas designed to promote 'tolerance' (and a great many other meaningless diktats) in order to make everyone feel 'equal', And this is precisely why socialism doesn't work. Socialism can only work when there are no people involved; otherwise, with their likes and dislikes and prejudices and striving for social superiority, they destroy the idea that everyone can be 'equal' prompting the political masters to instill ever more draconian measures to make them buckle down.
It is 'nice' to hear that the Conservatives are trying to undo the last ten - twelve - years of newspeak and doublethink; hard to see how they're going to achieve it when they were silent on Geert Wilders, for example. Will they undo the so-called 'hate' laws in order to unbridle free speech, or will they continue to muzzle everyone - from the far-right and far-left crackpots to the doomsayers, the evangelists, the dreamers, the nihilists and the academics - in order to 'foster understanding'? Is it only those following an 'alternative' lifestyle who will continue to be given a public and media platform? It is impossible to understand *anything* unless one is presented with all viewpoints, from the extreme to the moderate; that is how one learns right from wrong.
Parties such as the BNP are gaining ever-growing support because they are supporting one of these viewpoints - that the inhabitants of a country are entitled to it, should not be ashamed of its history or culture, or be expected to sacrifice its identity for that of newcomers - which is not being represented in the public domain. One hopes that despite all the brave words Grieve et al will not shirk from reaffirming nationalism in its most positive sense, together with 'unpopular' ideals such as moral standards.

[Jack Stone]

The fact that we have never different cultures in this country is something that makes us richer not poorer.
When people say intergraton what they really mean we should expect people to give up there traditions, religion and culture and become more British. Intergraton used by many is nothing more than racism in disguise.
Multicultarism makes this country a better place to live. We should celebrate it not condemn it.
Of course UKIP are racist. There the sort of racist who begins a sentence I am not racist some of my best friends are black than proceed to make Hitler seem a Liberal!!!

[pp]

Talking of multi-culturalism and stuff...

Gordon Brown suggested that Barak Obama might beat him at Basketball; whereas Barak might lose to brown at Tennis.

Where did the 'basketball' reference come from?? Gordon didn't just say it because Barak is a tall black man did he?

[Iain]

"The fact that we have never different cultures in this country is something that makes us richer not poorer."

Does it? Countries developed as a result of peoples with a common identity/culture coming together to give them collective security. Mass immigration and multiculturalism has ripped that collective security apart creating a Bosnia mark II that requires ever more surveillance of us, ever more restrictions on our freedoms, ever more censorship on our free speech to keep the whole rotten mess from disintegrating into a conflagration of competing tribes.

[basementcat]

Been a long time coming, but a welcome statement of intent from Mr Grieve.

[UKIP@HOME]

I could have added the UKIP branch that distributed posters that said "If you want a mosque for a neighbour vote Labour" or something similar.

Or the UKIP prospective parlaimentary candidate for Swindon who posted these famous words:

"What a laugh, it is said of the Italians, they have one marching position, backwards ow the French who surrender when someone says 'boo' to them."

And we are expected to take this bunch of clowns seriously?

[Edward Huxley]

I don`t know if UKIP@HOME`s statement about UKIP and the mosques etc. is true or not, but if it is then I`m sure the party was not alone and many residents irrespective of their political leanings would have agreed.

This country has always tolerated and indeed welcomed immigrants who come here, adopt our way of life and integrate. For example, cases of anti-semitism are rare. What worries many people, not just UKIP members, is when areas are swamped by an influx which in addition to its religion keeps its own language, way of dressing and wants to impose its own laws. It boils down to numbers.

If objecting to that makes me a racist, then so be it.

[Ed West]

Where did the 'basketball' reference come from?? Gordon didn't just say it because Barak is a tall black man did he?

No, Barack is a very keen basketball player. It wasnt a David Brent moment.

[Mr Angry]

This statement has nothing at all to do with addressing the reality of the damage done to Britain by uncontrolled immigration, the failed myth of multiculturalism and above all by the cancer of political correctness and the subsequent pandering to militant Muslim demands, including their unquestioned right to be racist and especially anti-semitic.

It does though have everything to do with Tory fears of losing votes at the Euro elections to the BNP and especially to UKIP. All in all just another example of unpalatable political opportunism from the leadership of our party.

[Jack Iddon]

Jack Stone, sorry, but what you say are the words of a blinkered idiot! Open your eyes man and engage your mind.

[Geoff Middleton]

Let me see, Grieve attacks multiculturalism yet "applauds" diversity, while failing to understand that they are equivalent.
And we have people on here praising him?

[Iftikhar]

The demand for Muslim schools comes from parents who want their children a safe environment with an Islamic ethos.Parents see Muslim schools where children can develop their Islamic Identity where they won't feel stigmatised for being Muslims and they can feel confident about their faith.
Muslim schools are working to try to create a bridge between communities.
There is a belief among ethnic minority parens that the British schooling
does not adequatly address their cultural needs. Failing to meet this need could result in feeling resentment among a group who already feel excluded. Setting up Muslim school is a defensive response.

State schools with monolingual teachers are not capable to teach English to bilingual Muslim children. Bilingual teachers are needed to teach English to such children along with their mother tongue. According to a number of studies, a child will not learn a second language if his first language is ignored.

Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual
Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. Muslims
have the right to educate their children in an environment that suits their
culture. This notion of "integration", actually means "assimilation", by
which people generally really mean "be more like me". That is not
multiculturalism. In Sydney, Muslims were refused to build a Muslim school,
because of a protest by the residents. Yet a year later, permission was
given for the building of a Catholic school and no protests from the
residents. This clrearly shows the blatant hypocrisy, double standards and racism. Christians oppose Muslim schools in western countries yet build
their own religious schools.

British schooling and the British society is the home of institutional
racism. The result is that Muslim children are unable to develop
self-confidence and self-esteem, therefore, majority of them leave schools with low grades. Racism is deeply rooted in British society. Every native child is born with a gene or virus of racism, therefore, no law could change the attitudes of racism towards those who are different. It is not only the common man, even member of the royal family is involved in racism. The
father of a Pakistani office cadet who was called a "Paki" by Prince Harry
has profoundly condemned his actions. He had felt proud when he met the
Queen and the Prince of Wales at his son's passing out parade at Sandhurst
in 2006 but now felt upset after learning about the Prince's comments. Queen Victoria invited an Imam from India to teach her Urdu language. He was highly respected by the Queen but other members of the royal family had no respect for him. He was forced to go back to India. His protrait is still in
one of the royal places.

There are hundreds of state schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be designated as Muslim community schools with bilingual Muslim teachers. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.
Iftikhar Ahmad

[GB£.com]

Just a small reminder for Grieve, Cameron etc:

Tory members are closest to UKIP

In fact, 6 times as many Tory party members believe that UKIP's policies are closest to their views than any other British political party (43% for UKIP, 7% for LibDems)

ConHome Poll

[pp]

Iftikhar - are you for real, or just a wind up merchant fishing for some ill considered responses?

Your line:

Every native child is born with a gene or virus of racism, therefore, no law could change the attitudes of racism towards those who are different.

Would be funny if it weren't for the fact that you might be real...

Every is .

When you say 'native' do you mean british native - or do you mean everyone on earth (everyone is native so somewhere). I ask just to establish whether you beleive that every race is racist, or you are reserving that judgement to the british?

[Edward Huxley]

I think iftikhar`s posting says it all.

You can see the way we are going. No further comment from me is needed.

[Mara MacSeoinin]

"Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. Muslims have the right to educate their children in an environment that suits their culture."

If you wish to institute Muslim schools, do so privately. The state religion is Christianity; the State has no obligation - and, indeed, has vehemently savaged those who claims that it does - to offer an alternative, segregated form of education. Indeed, it has made it its mission to try to force Orthodox Jewish schools to accept the children of atheists on the grounds of 'fairness'; ditto with independent Catholic schools. What you are proposing is that the taxpayers fund the kind of discrimination against which *you* are railing. I'm sorry: it simply cannot be one rule for you and another for the rest.

[Hugh Oxford]

This clrearly shows the blatant hypocrisy, double standards and racism. Christians oppose Muslim schools in western countries yet build
their own religious schools.

Indeed, I enjoyed my days at St Xaviers Catholic School in Riyadh enormously.

[Mrs Campbell]

Read the whole speech - Dominic Grieve has been saying the same things for years to all kinds of audiences all over the country although, until now, the Party and the media have taken little or no notice

[Hugh Oxford]

There are hundreds of state schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be designated as Muslim community schools with bilingual Muslim teachers. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.

A few questions Iftaq.

1: Why does it have to be bilingual? What's that got to do with Islam?

2: Why is there no place for a non-Muslim in a Muslim school?

3: If you don't want to be part of mainstream British society, why did you come here in the first place? Why don't you just go home?

[Jack Iddon]

I seem to recall a similar post from this Ahmed fellow some time ago. I think he is an agent provocateur.
If I am wrong we really do need to worry, this sort of fellow won't be satisfied until we have adopted Sharia Law, stone all single mothers to death and stage the weekly public beheading of Christians in Trafalgar Square.

[Geoff Middleton]

According to a number of studies, a child will not learn a second language if his first language is ignored.

Hmmm, on the off-chance that this is not a troll on the wind-up, what should be a child's first language in Britain?

[Edward Huxley]

Here in Surrey the County Council website offers Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Italian, Polish, Spanish and Urdu. I kid you not, look it up for yourself. And we British taxpayers are paying for this. If these people don`t want to learn English they should go back to where they came from.

Does that make me a racist?

[Jack Stone]

Edward Huxley. Does that make you a racist? Yes!

[Ric]

The truth of the matter is that the Conservative Party have got nothing to offer on the subject of immigration so they unfairly try to demonise their main European election rivals U.K.I.P.,a party which has a robust immigration policy.Come on MR. Grieve tell us what the Conservatives will do about uncontolled immigration from the E.U. bearing in mind the recent implied threat from the Hungarian P.M. to send their unemployed to Britain for us to look after them.

[michael mcgough]

They ban extremists don't they?

[Sally Roberts]

"should we not rejoice that Dominic Grieve has at last picked up the torch rather than rubbish him for his efforts?"

Yes we should, Steve!

It is depressing to see yet another thread being taken over by the more unreconstructed elements on either end of the political spectrum! I do not know which are the worse utterings - those from "Iftikhar" or from "Hugh Oxford"! Neither shows the remotest tolerance for anyone espousing views other than their own but that is of course the nature of The Fascist Beast - whether the Islamo kind or the BNP variety!

[Mara MacSeoinin]

"Here in Surrey the County Council website offers Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Italian, Polish, Spanish and Urdu. I kid you not, look it up for yourself. And we British taxpayers are paying for this. If these people don`t want to learn English they should go back to where they came from.

Does that make me a racist?"

Not *precisely*. You're inferring from the fact that because all these languages are offered, the recipients of such services 'cant be bothered' to learn English. But they may very well want to learn English and about the country to which they've moved and can thus use that website as a first port of call to find teachers, immigrant networks to facilitate integration and also provide a sense of cultural stability etcetera.
If there are those who come to England to get the benefits of free health, education and unemployment payments yet who express absolutely no desire to learn the language - in fact, express contempt for the country and its way of life - then of course they should be ejected PDQ (after the benefits that they've received have been reclaimed). No question.

[Hugh Oxford]

I do not know which are the worse utterings - those from "Iftikhar" or from "Hugh Oxford"! Neither shows the remotest tolerance for anyone espousing views other than their own but that is of course the nature of The Fascist Beast - whether the Islamo kind or the BNP variety!

Oh Sally. Please tell us. What on earth have I written that you could possibly sniff at? More specifically, what have I written that conflicts with an orthodox, moderate, Conservative position?

[Edward Huxley]

Mara. I`m all for education, but why should we council tax payers have to foot the bill for all the interpreters? Seven languages and strangely no French or German. People are losing their jobs or lucky to remain in employment on their present salary and we are getting another inflation busting council tax increase.

[Hugh Oxford]

Oh, and by the way Sally, I'm a second generation immigrant who, were it not for a few quirks of political history could well have ended up living in a third world hellhole.

So I have, more than many of my more comfortable and complacent compatriots, a keener sense of what Conservatives are battling to preserve, and what we are trying to save ourselves from becoming.

Your non-judgmentalism and broad mindedness are laudable characteristics but if they are not tempered by a grasp of reality, notably about the precarious position of this tiny island on the periphery of burgeoning and failing societies and states to our south and east, then they may become their own worst enemies.

Our history as an island nation may have led us into a false sense of security, but today that stretch of once impassable water has been supplanted by short flights from just about anywhere in the world.

Unfortunately unless we are to be subsumed into a world of fundamentalism, ignorance and dysfunction, we are going to have to get extremely defensive and radical about who is here and who is not.

Open mindedness and tolerance are, paradoxically, luxuries really only afforded to extremely discriminatory and exclusive societies.

[Mara MacSeoinin]

I Am inclined to be in sympathy with you - and I think that immigration (save for an influx of perhaps 1000 of the most skilled professionals in fields in which we have significant shortages per annum and no more; get those who have been turned into untermenschen by socialism to do menial jobs) should be stopped altogether during the recession/depression.
Typically, it has been those who are prepared to do menial jobs who have immigrated and now need councils' help - well-educated French or Germans would be bilingual anyway, and occupying jobs towards the top of the spectrum. It should be a fundamental requirement that those entering the UK have at least a decent modicum of English to start with.
I wonder whether one of Blair/Brown's ambitions has been to treat England rather like America during the C19th-C20th: to turn it into a 'land of opportunity', a 'dream ticket' where all comers will be welcomed and everyone have the ability to make a comfortable life. The glaring problem with that is, of course, that we don't have the room; we're densely populated; and in the States the established social orders weren't interfered with. It was seen as admirable to work one's way up and provide better education, housing and social opportunities until one could enter government, compete commercially etc. Now, of course, it is precisely the opposite.
I suppose we should be grateful that at least these translators have their jobs. In Cambridge, 90+ languages are now spoken; they can't find sufficient translators.

[Brockway]

Kevin Rudd, the Prime Minister of Australia
gsve a wonderful speech, which seems to encompass a great deal which could help Dominic Grieve. I do hope you have seen the copy, I have it if anyone wants to see it

[C Powell]

Fine - as far as it goes - but now we need a plan of action i.e. let's reverse the decision to pay benefit to men who have more than wife, let's reintroduce the primary purpose rule so that we stop the importing of people from a culture so different from our own with consequent baleful effects on the integration of the Muslim community we now have, let's reverse those decisions designed to appease particular minorities (e.g. that police dogs cannot be used during searches), let's say firmly that all girls - no matter what their religion - are entitled to a full Western education and that any steps to curtail that (whether by withdrawing them from schools or lessons all the way to so-called "honour" killings) are wrong and, where criminal, will be prosecuted. Let's describe barbaric practices for what they are e.g. FGM is child abuse, "honour" killings are murder, forced marriages are rape etc.,. Above all, we need to stand up for our own culture, our own historic freedoms and liberties and rights so that, as well as attacking the pernicious doctrine of multi-culturalism we need to roll back Labour's attacks on British freedoms so that being British means something worthwhile and something to be proud about.

[David Sergeant]

Mrs Campbell's comment at 13.05 is instructive. I believe it. The Torie have not been "sitting on their hands", every time they have raised the issue Labour, Lib/Dems and virtually all the media have dropped on them like a ton of bricks. A classic at the last election was Howard being accused of "a wiff of the gas chambers", at that time every Tory MP and, in particular the party Chairman, should roared support for Howard - nothing, hence Howard stepped back looking as if he was wrong and lost votes. This is as much down to cowardice by Tory leaders but, probably they take the view that they can't fight everybody so just let it pass.

Another example is Hague in the 2001 election. He allowed himself to be labeled racist by everybody because he didn't have any confidence he would get support if he took the issue up. (I know it also could be said he hopelessly bungled it but without confidence of support there is limited options.)

[Howard]

A MESSAGE TO IFTIKHAR

Regarding racism!
All are born equal.
All have a never dying soul.
So it behoves us to live in peace with all wherever possible.
The reality is much different. Down the centuries millions have been slaughtered in the name of religion and cultural variance, coupled with dreadful misunderstandings.
Now I would say to you, IFTIKHAR, you may have an axe to grind about the circumstances in Britain but there are other parts of the world where you could no doubt find a more suitable environment in which to better excercise your requirements. So perhaps it would be helpful if you could leave our Christian based society so that we can continue in the way we wish to live here.
Your comments obviously display a very bitter attitude toward British society. I hesitate to call you racist but would ask you to reflect on the rules and laws of Britain, which is one of the most developed and tolerant societies (some would say too tolerant)in the world.
Please consider your position.

[sm]

Please reread Mr Ahmed post. I suspect his views may not be a minority.

We need to protect liberal democracy from cultures which may only temporarily support democracy,liberty and minority rights.

Exclusion of the native culture should not be unchallenged, likewise separateness and other illegal practices or cultural practices which are not reconcilable.

Alien languages should not be used to separate and divide. The primary language should remain English. All non English texts and teaching material should be translated and approved as suitable for schooling.

I am a supporter of managed migration with caps, consistent with long term harmony and sustainability.Facts should be collated to answer questions set and not obfuscated.

Im still unsure what the Conservative position will be. This needs clarity.

I think the racist/.xyz..ist card no longer works as they have been used to lazily and wrongly sometimes, even if true in some parts.

[The bishop Swine]

Hmmm, on the off-chance that this is not a troll on the wind-up, what should be a child's first language in Britain?

Lets try the British dialect of their home region, followed by a kind of received tongue after graduation. So in Wales it might be welsh, and in England it would be English, and in Scotland the barbarous tongue mixed with their gaelic if applicable.
Sharia Law has no place in Britain and groups who wish to practice foreign laws should return to foreign places, taking might I add their foreign gods with them.

[Rog the Tory]

At least it's stirred up debate or rather tit for tat knocking. As a right-wing Tory who was spouting the garbage UKIP and BNP spew out over 30 years ago let's put it simply for you. We are NOT going to get a UKIP or BNP government, but if you actually vote tactfully, re join the party and fight from within, we might get a Conservative government with a membership to remind them of why they are there! Not exactly rocket science is it????

[RealConservative]

Good stuff from Dominic Grieve, e.g. a decade of courting self-appointed heads of minority groups and pandering to special interest lobbies,. But it could be said this process has been going on for the last few decades - but at varying speeds, with Labour’s decade in office being the fastest. Minority agandas take priority over the majority culture, including our Judeo-Christian heritage, with freedom of speech and freedom of conscience for those who hold Christian values now being overridden by the ‘rights’ of minorities.

So a Bishop is investigated by police for ‘homophobia’ for daring to point out that homosexual orientation can change. Foster carers are struck off for ..no, not for inability to care for children, but because they hold traditional views on sexual behaviour, or a young person in their care converts from Islam to Christianity.

The question must be, how will Dominic Grieve and the leadership legislate to put a stop to this type of thing? For example, what will they do about hate-speech laws, ‘harassment’ laws (where someone could sue for merely hearing something they disagree with), ‘diversity’ and other devices used against Christianity?

[Mara MacSeoinin]

I would strongly, strongly advise that Mr Grieve et al read the responses to 'multiculturalism' over at yahoo: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/blog/talking_politics/article/4420/
Around 2600 comments have been posted in the last day or so. The majority of them are along the Alf Garnett-Enoch Powell line. These are people to whom Grieve should be spelling out, with absolute clarity and no newspeak buzzwords like 'diversity' and, indeed, 'multiculturalism' just what 'Britain' means to the Conservatives. Based upon the rhetoric contained within these blog posts, I fear that in a 'summer of rage' things could get very nasty indeed for immigrants of any hue, but most particularly for Muslim ones. Grieve's comment that we have had "a decade of courting self-appointed heads of minority groups and pandering to special interest lobbies" has particular resonance for those thousands whose grievance at lack of representation has been allowed to fester.

[Geoff Middleton]

The question must be, how will Dominic Grieve and the leadership legislate to put a stop to...‘diversity’ and other devices used against Christianity?

Grieve has already answered this, with no hint of irony.
Diversity must be "applauded".

[John Anslow]

Enoch Powell gave his full and active support to the reform of the laws concerning homosexuality; he consistently opposed capital and corporal punishment and said the following in a sermon at St Lawrence Jewry in January 1977:

…. I have never arranged my fellow men on a scale of merit according to their origins. The basis is political. It is the belief that self-identification of each part with the whole is the one essential precondition of being a parliamentary nation …..

To link his name with that of Alf Garnett displays an ignorance that I find unsettling in such an articulate and otherwise knowledgeable contributor to this thread.

[Iftikhar]

Salaam

Children using a first language other than English have a some important academic advantages as the bilingualism enables children to develop cognitively. It can also improve 'intercultural understanding'.

A bilingual teacher has the ability to teach bilingually and explain complex concepts to children who have limited understanding in English. Learning in their first language 'raises their self-esteem, self-respect and strengthens their identities in western culture.

The EEC in the mid 70s urged members states to support the maintenance of mother tongues of immigrant children. But British Establishment with monolingual teachers insisted on teaching English to migrant children and totally ignorned and deprived them of their mother tongues. Muslim children suffered and still suffering more then others because they find themselves cut off from their cultural roots and are unable to enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.

Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. They need to learn and be well versed in English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. They need to learn and be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.
Iftikhar Ahmad

[Mara MacSeoinin]

I see that I fatally omitted to place a space on either side of the hyphen indicating the two extremes of the anti-immigration argument. Powell argued famously in his 'River Tiber' speech that 'For reasons which they [the native English] could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country. They found their wives unable to obtain hospital beds in childbirth, their children unable to obtain school places, their homes and neighbourhoods changed beyond recognition, their plans and prospects for the future defeated; at work they found that employers hesitated to apply to the immigrant worker the standards of discipline and competence required of the native-born worker; they began to hear, as time went by, more and more voices which told them that they were now the unwanted. On top of this, they now learn that a one-way privilege is to be established by Act of Parliament; a law which cannot, and is not intended to, operate to protect them or redress their grievances, is to be enacted to give the stranger, the disgruntled and the agent provocateur the power to pillory them for their private actions'. These sentiments are being voiced by the more literate of the posters on Yahoo. (Lest we forget, Powell was not a liberal in any sense and possessed Far Right political tendencies. In the 1980s, following the St Pauls and Toxteth riots, badges began to circulate stating 'Powell was right'.)
At the other end of the sphere, we have the 'stands to reason' 'you know what they say' crowd, whose rhetoric seems to be confined to three modes of thought: a) piss off where you came from b) immigrants stealing all our money through benefits c) we hate sharia, just you wait until the anarchy sets in. There are clear resentments and hatreds on the cusp of being unleashed. Here we have a combination of factors calculated to magnify the immigration problem; firstly, that nationalism tends to rear its head during times of economic hardship and secondly that native Britons have been made to feel like second-class citizens whilst immigrants have been appeased by the current government.
I believe a leaf should be taken out of Australia's book; in 1997, under the then PM Howard, the 'take it or leave it' speech was directed at those hardline mullahs, imams etc who wished to reside in Australia yet sought to cause violence within its borders. As a superb clincher, Howard stated: "if you don't like it, I suggest you take advantage of another great Australian freedom. The right to leave."

[Malcolm Dunn]

I think the person posting at 18.25 is either a troll or a complete wind up mmerchant. Not worthy of a response.

[Mara MacSeoinin]

Again, I agree with you Malcolm; and if you would care to browse the posts on the first page, you will find that the same individual posted roughly the same piece, and that there were a number of extremely pointed comments (one of which was from me; I argued, successfully I think, that if he wants Muslim only schools he should pay for them privately; the state should not subsidise these schools whilst forcing Christian and Jewish schools to accept children of other and no faiths, and Islam is not the state religion). And herein resides the problem. After twelve years of having their opinions pandered to even when they are entirely unreasonable, discriminatory and downright hostile, they believe that they have the 'right' to demand whatever they choose. They are used to receiving it, also.
What has been lost in this country - as Bishop Hill points out in his excellent blog: http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2009/2/21/terminological-inexactitude.html - is the notion of reciprocity that comes with responsibility. For instance, if I am going to demand that my children have the right to universal free education, you are going to have to pay for it - and vice versa. Iftikhar and his ilk are used to demanding what they perceive as a God-given entitlement without providing anything in return; no cohesion, no conversation, no community: the exact opposite of the majority of young British Muslims who are tainted by association because this government's marked them as 'minorities'. That has to be the worst kind of discrimination of all.

[Sally Roberts]

I too agree with Malcolm and with Mara on this! The individual concerned makes the same points over and over again, only varying his words slightly each time he posts!

[John Anslow]

Lest we forget, Powell was not a liberal in any sense and possessed Far Right political tendencies …..

I respectfully, but profoundly, disagree.

I mentioned that Powell was one of most influential voices for the decriminalization of homosexuality, and also his opposition to capital and corporal punishment. His speech deploring the murder by warders of eleven Mau Mau terrorists was described by Dennis Healey as “the greatest parliamentary speech I ever heard”.

His “Water Towers” speech of 1961 began the process that led to the closure of the great mental institutions and the move towards Care in the Community.

His ideas on economics centred on the importance of free trade and its relationship to a free society; and he deplored the state interference that has always been a feature of far-right parties.

Even his love of country, demonstrated when he gave up a professorship at the University of Sydney immediately on the outbreak of the Second World War to enlist as a private soldier, ( “he …. fancied he could hear the boots of the German armies drilling through the earth and reaching him in Australia”) was expressed through his love of the poetry of A. E. Housman.

Powell was a complex man, and a great Englishman; one who deserves to be remembered with much greater respect than his legacy currently enjoys.

[Mara MacSeoinin]

I do not challenge assertions of Powell's brilliance - a man who takes a double starred First at Trinity Cambridge and is awarded a professorship is obviously an extremely gifted individual. I thought it had been suggested that he supported the decriminalization of homosexuality because he was one himself? (Perhaps the Powell debate should be taken over to a different forum - my blog, perhaps - as this thread's supposed to be about multiculturalism??)

[John Anslow]

It was not I who first mentioned Powell. I intervened only because when an obviously erudite and articulate person mentions something that is incorrect, that error quickly becomes accepted as an established fact.

I drew attention to Powell’s academic brilliance only indirectly; my main thrust concerned his liberalism, both socially and economically, and his abhorrence of what we call far-right politics. It concerns me also that Powell’s name is ignorantly associated with positions that he demonstrably did not hold.

Whether he had any homosexual tendencies is neither here nor there. Human sexuality is far more diverse than many are prepared to admit: it is a private matter.

Finally, I should have thought that Powell’s views on multiculturalism, or communalism as he called it, are as relevant today as they ever were, and could indeed merit inclusion in a thread like this; though that was not my purpose in responding to the original comments.

[Adrian]

Has anyone actually visited the BNP website.

[Seaford Tory]

"Has anyone actually visited the BNP website."

Yes....I have

The BNP espouces quite a coherent policy-the problem is that its "socalism for white people".

In Germany circa 1933-socalism was introduced...for Germans.It was called National Socalism,and look where that got them?

Try this line for example:

"Finally we will seek to give British workers a stake in the success and prosperity of the enterprises whose profits their labour creates by encouraging worker shareholder and co-operative schemes"

or

"We further believe that British industry, commerce, land and other economic and natural assets belong in the final analysis to the British nation and people."

and this piece of uneducated doublethink:

"Britain’s farming industry will be encouraged to produce a much greater part of the nation’s need in food products."

"Priority will be switched from quantity to quality, as we move from competing in a global economy to maximum self-sufficiency for Britain."

Not only would we have another Cod War.....we would also face mass starvation as we try and feed 65 million odd without importing food as well!

"British Nation and people"......no doubt the embodiment of the "British Nation" according to the BNP is the state and "co-operative schemes" sounds strait out of the USSR circa 1920's.

Anybody who shares a centre right world view would shudder at what they are proposing-no wonder Labour voters love the BNP.

The way I read this BNP proposing nothing less than an isolationist tin-pot little country, with a command economy that would make the Chinese Communist Party blush, with a jack booted police state to boot.

How else would anybody regard withdrawing from NATO and peacekeeping missions while at the same time putting everybody in a uniform and introducing "corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals, and the restoration of capital punishment for paedophiles, terrorists and murderers" as nothing more than the "same old same old" that is the staple diet for the average North Korean citizen.

Oh yes the BNP has a vision based on the nonsensical rants of the Nazi Party-still at least they have a vision, which is more than the "wannaby Tory" UKIP,who are a one trick pony.

And I havn't even mentioned the "R" word......

[Ross McKay]

Conservatives have forfeited the votes of millions for their failure to confront multicult. It is a menace and should be outlawed, in concert with the repatriation of immigrants who choose to cling to alien habits and languages. And boot out most of the 'Asylum seekers.'

[steve foley]

Sally, I would say neither of the posters you have named. The one I find most nauseating is "Jack Stone" whoever that person may be in real life. Whether they are truly an unreconstructed Old Style Working Class Labourite and a relic of the Harold Wilson era, a Troll or perhaps a too clever by half Tory Devil's Advocate I do not know, but frankly they are like a haemorrhoid, a pain in the a**e!

As to Enoch Powell a very brilliant man indeed and staunchly patriotic but as has been illustrated on many points he was NOT a Right-Winger, on some matters he was quite liberal. If the Hard Right want an Icon they should choose Lord Tebbit instead.

On the matter of language, I can only point to the Jews in this country. No doubt they learn Hebrew but they also learn English and speak it. Some countries insist that if one wishes to take permanent residence in that land one needs to show a degree of proficiency in the language. Quite right as far as I am concerned. If I moved to Portugal as I would love to do, I would learn Portuguese. I have no problem with people maintaining and respecting their religious and cultural traditions but they must accept the Laws of Britain and have respect for our Traditions too. I would have to do so in the very unlikely event I ever visited or worked in Saudi Arabia for example, so what's sauce for the goose?

[Bilal Patel]

The coward is the one who condemns 'political correctness' and who doesn't have to suffer the consequences of it.

That's the same coward who attacks members of ethnic minorities - the very same people who would have been abused as 'Pakis' times past - by giving them a religious label and saying therefore it's not racist.

That's the same coward who then accuses said members of ethnic minority groups of anti-semitism, a hypocritical stance even if the false claims were true (which they are not), because according to their own logic, Jews are a religious group and therefore open to attack as Jews.

So it's the opportunistic cowards who don't have the guts to show themselves to be the xenophobic, small minded little bigots they are, to attack 'political correctness' when in reality, it's not the PC stuff they want to attack - it's those darkies.

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