Boris tells Panorama that he wants tax revenue from London's 500,000 irregular migrants

Tonight's Panorama programme will reveal that the number of illegal immigrants in London and the UK are well above previous estimates. The latest estimate is that in 2007 there were between 524,000 to 947,000 illegal immigrants in the UK (central estimate 725,000). Previous estimates of illegal immigrants in the UK in 2001 were 310,000 – 570,000 (central estimate 430,000).  Boris Johnson will tell the programme that, in the absence of a credible deportation regime, he is open to the regularisation of these illegal immigrants so that they pay taxes (not something they currently do) in order to pay for their use of public services (something they do currently do).

ConservativeHome has been provided this verbatim preview of an exchange between Mayor Boris Johnson and the Panorama interviewer:

"Panorama – ‘Why do you support the idea of an earned amnesty?’

Mayor - 'We are not at that stage yet. What we have is a report by the LSE, that shows there are 500,000 people who are irregular migrants in London, from people breaking the law all sorts of people who are waiting for their papers to come through and there is a huge issue in dealing with that, because we are not sending them back because of the failure of Government policies, irregular migrants are not being sent back, only a maximum of 12,000 a year.’

Panorama – ‘Why?’

Mayor – ‘Failure of the Government. If you go on on this rate it will take 60 years to clear the backlog.'

Panorama – ‘60 years?’

Mayor – ‘It's extremely expensive to deport migrants, let me be clear I am in favour of sending them back but we must be realistic. We need to do two things simultaneously if we are serious, first we need to tighten the borders, we need to be much more robust because we don’t know who is here, it's crazy. Secondly we need a frank debate about what to do with the half a million who are not able to join the economy legally but are not allowed to make contribution to society and make case for earned amnesty, if they have been here for a long time and it looks like and if they can make a contribution they should be given the chance to regualrise their status.'"

Comments

[Roger Evans]

Limited 'regularisation' could all too easily become a free for all without basic precautions which need to be put in place first:

1. A clear definition of the sort of people we want (professionals, entrepreneurs) and those we don't want (terrorists, organised criminals), which must be robust enough to survive judicial sabotage and pressure group campaigns.

2. A way to determine how long people have been in the country and at what point they qualify for 'regularisation' - by definition this will be difficult to prove or disprove for illegals.

3. Most importantly, effective border controls must be re-established, because any regularisation will make the country a destination of choice for future illegals.

[Mr Disgusted]

More votes for the BNP then.

I suppose when you are looking for re-election in a place like London you have to say these things though.

Heaven help us, cos the Tory Party wont.

[Malcolm Dunn]

Agree wholeheartedly with Roger Evans.Surely the objective of the exercise should be to making the deportation of illegal immigrants cheaper and more effective.Regularisation is just another word for amnesty which will make this country a bigger target for illegals.

[GB£.com]

Surely you just have to announce a £25,000 instant fine for anyone found to be in the UK illegally on 31/12/2009?

You then give people the chance and time to get out, and have made the consequences clear if they do not.

You will then not have to have either amnesties or expensive programmes to send illegal immigrants home.

[Iain]

Is there one politician who will fight for our interests rather than throw in the towel? They don't manage our borders, they sign up to treaties that weaken our border controls, then capitulate without even attempting to sort out the mess. God we need a revolution, or even a good threat of a revolution then our useless idiot politicians would get their backsides to get a grip of the problem of illegal immigrants here.

All they have to do is massively increase the fine on employers for hiring illegals, then it wouldn't be a drain of the finances of the country to get rid of these people, for the cost would be carried by the scum bag employers who are employing them. I understand it costs £7,000 to deport one illegal. So if you put the fine at the average wage, £25k ,and deport 750,000, we, the hard pressed tax payer, would be in the money by £13.5 billion. Or is it against Westminster sensibilities to have the tax payer actually benefit rather than being continuously punished for being British?

Then as these illegals are profiting from the proceeds of crime, we could confiscate their assets as well!

All it takes is a bit of will and backbone to sort out the mess, two character straights that are in short supply in decadent Westminster!

[Jack Stone]

GB£.com. The fact that all but a few illegal immigrants are extremely poor, living in terrible conditions and often exploited by people who employ them would make any fine meaningless as they simply would not have the money to pay it.
We need to prevent people coming here by more effective border controls but we also as a matter of humanity need to regulate the status of those illegal immigrants who are here by allowing them to stay.

[David_at_Home]

How about facilitating the formation of privately run “immigrant bailiffs” who would be given a £2,000 bounty for each illegal immigrant apprehended? The illegal immigrants should then, after being given an opportunity to establish their right to be here, be deported without further regard to their “human rights” to their counties of origin by privately run immigrant removal organisations for a further fee. Any foreigner, including from the EU, found guilty of a serious crime, would lose the right to be here and could thus be deported by the same mechanism

The system could be self funding by confiscation of the assets of both the illegals and anyone found employing them.

A good market solution there which should appeal to my Tory Friends!

[HF]

Has Boris not heard of Council Tax? That is something people living in London will pay directly or indirectly.

Income tax is something Boris does not get. What is he on about?

[Bernard Wright]

will you please make some comment as to why this country has 2.5million pensiomers living below the bread line

[Edward Huxley]

A hefty fine on anyone employing an illegal immigrant would be sure to stop any more coming: also, as has been said already, it must be possible to deport illegals for much less than £7,000 each.

[Iain]

We have 600 useless politicians in Westminster, but within 6 posts on a message board we have a solution to the problem.

1/ Massively increase the employer fines for hiring illegals, which pay for all costs and some more.

2/Pay immigrant bailiffs to bring these illegals to the states attention with a bounty paid out of the fine.

3/ Incentivise illegals to get out while the going is good under the threat that if they don't and get caught they will have their assets confiscated under the proceeds of crime.

[Peter Watson]

Simple. Issue alien registration documents similar to this issued in Zambia to aliens. Then TAX them for medical care. That immediately helps the NHS (if they are found without insurance they are immediately deported and banned for ten years from entering Britain).
This will ensure they do NOT settle here. Also if they have children born here they will NOT be granted British citizenship (ever) and they will have to pay the same amount (150 pounds per month say) as their parent/s. Of course the human rights lawyers (Jesus had little time for lawyers...) will scream like stuck pigs. Tough. It is that or continue our decline to the bottom of the heap of failed nations.

[Peter Watson]

And the true figure is 2 million.

[Julian L Hawksworth]

This sounds like pragmatic thinking, from London's Mayor. However, I don't agree with the possibility that any illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay in this country, simply due to their having been here for a certain amount of time. Indeed, it gives the wrong signal and is not in tune with what most English people think.

Without a doubt, Islamic preachers of hate against our society (and terrorist suspects) should also be deported.

[Martin Wright]

According to Boris illigal immigrants pay no tax. How does he work that one out? Presumably they buy goods and services and pay VAT. Presumably they live somewhere and pay council tax, directly or indirectly.

You cannot even assume that all illegals are evading income tax. No doubt some are. But the Inland Revenue has a remit to maximise income tax collection, not a remit to act as a safety net for our useless Home Office. So they will issue you with a tax code and a National Insurance number irrespectiveof the legality of your presence here. And given their job of collecting taxes they just don't waste time trying to tell the Home Office that Mr. X is possibly an illegal immigrant.

Don't forget that many illegals are doing menial jobs with very little tax liability attached to them anyway. Indeed some outside the system might find that they are eligible for tax credits.

The conclusion then is that regularising the status of illegals will not necessarily increase the tax take that much. Against that is the huge incentive that one amnesty will give to a second wave of illegal immigration. And regularisation will open the door to all sorts of benefits including entitlement to benfits, old age pensions etc.

[Martin Wright]

Who on earth decided to raise the issue now? There's a major recession, people are anxious about their jobs,the main parties are worried about the progress of the far right. At this very moment some idiot in the BBC/Guardian/Loony Left Lobby decides the time is right to propose an amnesty.

Nick Griffin must be laughing all the way to the bank. Indeed I don't think he needs to spend much money campaigning - he just has to watch the main parties make mistake after mistake.

[Iain]

"And regularisation will open the door to all sorts of benefits including entitlement to benfits, old age pensions etc."

And a right to a family life so that will mean they will bring in all their family members.

Boris is a right plonker for allowing himself to become darling of pro mass immigration lobbyists like the BBC. Its not as if pro mass immigration organisations don't have enough support in the establishment, its us saying enough, enough who seem to have no one to make their case.

[snegchui]

Watching BBC quickly, they had a Zimbabwe MDC member on interview. His litany of asylum processing is one I have some sympathy for, but the problem is he is trotted out as an illegal immigrant, which he is not. He is specifically forbidden from working and cannot pay taxes. The fact the Home Office seem to have lost his files a number of times reflects more on the UK than him. Though he is keen to stay, he almost appeared as keen for someone to make a decision so he could get out of limbo.
Before the Tories address this issue, they must make sure the categories of peopel being addressed are carefully sorted out and each category dealt with separately, not just the one big pot of people with different rights and agendas lumped together in the media. That is what plays into the hands of the BNP.
Asylum Seekers: Let them find work and try to process their claims more quickly and efficiently. Counter argument , so many economic migrants claiming to be asylum seekers we would be flooded. Maybe, but better people claiming asylum than being fully illegal.
Illegals : I agree with Martin Wright that the tax receipts may be exaggerated. Fine employers, no point in fining the illegals who by definition are not earning much, unless in crime of drug and people trafficking. Those, catch under criminal law.
General amnesty I am not in favour of as it rewards people traffickers (see stay low for x years and you are free) . I would say think about incentives to declare arrival as being the only way to ever get right of stay.
Joining up issuance of NI numbers and immigrant status seems so basic there must be a catch as to why not done before. Mind you if the Daily Mail's story oon the workforce for the Olympic Site is correct in all details, then mass issuance of NI numbers for non-EU workers is just a formality. Interesting.

[Iain]

"There's a major recession, people are anxious about their jobs,"

While our politicians worry themselves silly about illegals rights to work here we have stories like....

"....... huge intake from abroad is leading to thousands of UK IT workers being laid off, according to the Association of Professional Staffing Companies.
It said the figures show that the severity of the economic downturn and 'tougher’ new immigration system introduced last year had 'barely dented' the influx of non-EU IT workers coming to the UK......"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160396/Foreign-IT-workers-swamp-UK-times-rate-dot-com-boom.html

But our politicians in Westminster couldn't give a damn, none of them are ever likely to raise the issue, certainly not to the extent champion of the illegals Boris Johnson is doing. You sometimes wonder if the British political class have a death wish, for they seem to be intent on pushing to see at what point we snap.

[Jules in London]

3 Police Officers have been murdered by illegals on this govt's watch. Soho protection rackets are run by Albanians, the herion trade run by Turks! These aren't EC citizens, why aren't they rounded up and deported or in jail pending deportation?
Set up 0800 phoneline to report illegals.
Deport all illegals and ban them re-entering UK for min 5 years or jail term if they return.
Tough immigration policy is a vote winner for the Tories, wake up and speak out NOW, Labour has failed abysmally to deport foreign criminals, failed asylum seekers or illegal immigrants.

[Libbie Miller]

This is a terrible mistake in so many ways.

Firstly, it sends the wrong signal to people who are thinking of entering illegally. After a massive amnesty such as this, the number of illegals trying to enter is bound to rise as more hope that it will become a regular policy.

Secondly, you will alienate even more voters, most of us are of the opinion that you hand out work permits and passports far too easily anyway. The Olympics Con is one which has see the workers in London left out in the cold as non EU citizens grab the jobs purely because they have residency.

You will lose a huge amount of the electorate to the BNP purely because we don't want non EU foreigners taking our jobs! Simple.

What the electorate want to hear is that you will step up deportations of illegal immigrants, not hand out work permits when millions of us are unemployed.

Boris is a joke!

[michael mcgough]

Harsh times demand harsh policies.
NO AMNESTY.
gb£.com has a good scheme .
There is currently little movement of goods by sea so there must be lots of capacity to remove people by sea or even on the backs of lorries whence they came.

"I suppose when you are looking for re-election in a place like London you have to say these things though." Mr Disgusted
That presumes they have the vote then,which given the corrupt electoral system is probably correct.Good to see Dominic Grieve attack ethnic electoral crime last Wednesday at QMC.

Boris is clearly outto secure the bnp their first London MEP.

[David_at_Home]

Cui Bono?

Mass Immigration, both legal and illegal and from Continental Europe and from elsewhere will continue till we answer that question and then remove the incentives to support this policy.

Currently the incentives for many of the most powerful in the land to encourage mass immigration are strong. Mass Immigration keeps wage levels low, creates an ever expanding expand home market, ensures the availability of cheap servants and keeps an army of legal aid lawyers in business, together with the associated taxpayer/lottery subsidised “charities.” (e.g. Reprieve). The downsides (poor access to the NHS and education, crime, and increased taxes) are largely confined by those earning less than about £50K.

[Edward Huxley]

The EU rears its ugly head again. Well, somebody had to say it. All this argy bargy is all very well, but as long as we remain in the EU we can never regain control of our borders.

Anyone disagree?

[michael mcgough]

The reality of course is that Boris doesn't have a say----it is down to Parliament,I think.
But then isn't migration an EU competence/

[snegchui]

I was interested to see that the BBC prog this morning had someone from Home Office saying the new Border Police made the UK borders some of the hardest in the world to penetrate. I would be interested to see the comparisons with other countries.

[Peter]

Boris again shows his terror of Ken and the PC lobby. As explained ably above, this proposal would do nothing to increase revenue, makes anyone concerned about immigration doubt our party's credibility on the issue, and the world over has simply made the problem word not better as more illegals arrive hoping to benefit from the next amnesty. Thanks a lot, Boris. I hope a handful of Guardian jpurnalits who will still never vote for us are impressed.

[Hawkeye]

Maybe a special police division called "BladeRunners"?

[David_at_Home]

"Anyone disagree?"

Not me.

As with mass immigration so with the associated issue of the EU. Cui Bono?

And who pays for it all?

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/

(See the Great European Rip-Off)

[snegchui]

The UK Border Agency:
"The UK Border Agency (UKBA) said it did not tolerate anyone who abused the system and that the UK had "one of the toughest borders in the world and we are determined to ensure it stays that way".

'Tough enforcement'

A spokesperson added: "There is now triple ring of security that protects Britain: fingerprint visas, ID cards for foreign nationals that lock people to one identity and our hi-tech electronic border controls that check people against police, immigration and customs watch-lists and will cover even more passenger journeys by the end of this year. " (4,900 arrests and 28,000 entry denials since April last year. vs 725,000 estimated illegals and overstayers (are Asylum Seekers included in this or not???)
I would say an awful long way to go to (re)build a history of competence.

[Ed West]

He's making a very foolish mistake supporting this idea.
How much will the revenue be of low-paid immigrant, compared to the amount spent on health and education. Been to a maternity ward in central London recently, anyone?

[Libbie Miller]

"The proportion of people living in Britain who were born overseas is more than three times the international average, it emerged last night.

Eleven per cent of British residents were born abroad, against the global figure of 3 per cent.

The campaign group Migrationwatch UK said the findings dispelled the Government's 'misleading' claims that very high levels of immigration to Britain had been consistent with world trends"

"EU Workers in UK ‘Three or Four Times’ Number of Brits Working in Europe"

We already have more than our fair share of EU citizens. Bring in a policy to deport illegals if you want to be voted in and not lose anymore of the electorate to the BNP.

Don't take this lightly, come June you will see and by then it may be too late!

[Iain]

"How much will the revenue be of low-paid immigrant, compared to the amount spent on health and education."

Isn't the calculation that anyone earning below £22k is a net consumer of Government services. So as all these illeagals are probably earning below that Bois Johnson’s amnesty the result would be a massive cost to the exchequer.

[rugfish]

Amnesty = cop out.

What happens in 10 years time when you discover another half million illegal immigrants?

These people are absorbing jobs and absorbing state costs which are borne by the taxpayers.

In the words of Larry Grayson - SHUT THAT DOOR!

In the words of Lord Denning - No man is above the law.

We have laws so get on with it!

[Sally Roberts]

Much as I admire Boris's sentiment behind this, I am afraid that he has "boobed" politically with this! The timing is all wrong and I suspect the BNP will make much of it.
That said, I shall certainly watch Panorama tonight to get more of a picture.

[Rod Sellers]

So much for Boris as a future Leader of the Tory Party, This is a crazy line for him to take and one can only assume that through clumsy words he has let the story get out of control. Already the BBC bulletins are saying " Boris Johnson says amnesty for illegal immigrants - government says we must control immigration"

The issue is overpopulation. The UK's viable capacity is around 27m - in reality we have 61m rising to 85m within 70 years.

We are heading for disaster and with Boris's help we'll get there sooner.

[RichardJ]

"But at current rates of deportation, using the LSE figure of 725,000, it would take 34 years and cost almost £9bn to clear the backlog of people who are currently in the UK illegally."

9bn is a drop in the ocean compared to the cash that Gordon is spraying around. Plus it will keep our immigration services in work for 3 decades. Let's get cracking.

[RichardJ]

"Isn't the calculation that anyone earning below £22k is a net consumer of Government services."

I thought it was about 35K?

[michael mcgough]

It is interesting that some Greater London Boroughs have employment policies that positively discriminate against workers from the EU but favour Albanians,Turks etc etc

[Sean Fear]

Illegal immigrants tend to be poor and unskilled. Giving them the right to remain here will entitle them to all sorts of State benefits which they don't currently receive, and entitle them to bring in family members who are as poor and unskilled as they are.

So, it's a stupid idea.

[Jack Stone]

Sean Fear. My god we can`t have that. Unskilled and poor foreigners being allowed into the country. Some of those unskilled people could actually contribute greatly to the country if allowed to do so.
When you talk about illegal immigrants lets not forget these are people. Most of who come here for no other reason than trying to build a better life for themselves and there families. Lets show them compassion not racism.

[Sally Roberts]

"Most of who come here"

I think it would be better grammar to say "Most of WHOM.." Jack! That said, you are doing much better with your spelling!

[Iain]

"Most of who come here for no other reason than trying to build a better life for themselves and there families"

So says someone whose salary isn't going to be undercut by letting the worlds poor come into the country, who won't be scraping with others for social housing, who won't be reliant on state services, who doesn’t care whether the next generation will have sufficient food resources, who only short-sightedly cares about the bleeding heart posture they strike in their comfortable middle class dinner parties!

[michael mcgough]

"So, it's a stupid idea."

VERY STUPID.

[Iain]

"My god we can`t have that. Unskilled and poor foreigners being allowed into the country"

So says someone whose salary isn't going to be undercut by letting the worlds poor come into the country, who won't be scraping with others for social housing, who won't be reliant on state services, who doesn’t care whether the next generation will have sufficient food resources, who only short-sightedly cares about the bleeding heart posture they strike in their comfortable middle class dinner parties!

[The Bishop Swine]

"Mayor – ‘It's extremely expensive to deport migrants, let me be clear I am in favour of sending them back but we must be realistic."

Isn't any amnesty going to send the wrong message, making us look even more like a soft touch?

"Most of who come here for no other reason than trying to build a better life for themselves and there families. Lets show them compassion not racism."

By that logic the guy who breaks into your home to steal your valuables is only trying his best to support his family, and we should be bending over backwards to help him.
The Law is the law and those who are here illegally are criminals and should be treated accordingly. Even if it is expensive to deport Illegals we should still do just that. Maybe we should be holding them until we have a whole boat full or looking for other ways to make deporting them cheaper. Rather than allowing them to stay and encouraging more to come here. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the law of the land.

[Martin Wright]

Jack Stone

Every one on the earth is a human being. By your logic, every one on the planet has a right to come here if they want to.

"Most of who come here for no other reason than trying to build a better life for themselves and there families." In other words they are showing self-interest. Well let's respond by indulging in a bit of self-interest of our own and promote the interests of our own citizens.

You mention their general poverty. I've never quite understood Labour's desire to import poverty. We have enough poor (and idle) of our own and our priority should be to get our own citizens back into work. No wonder Labour keeps failing to meet its targets for the elimination of child poverty. Every time it helps a few thousand idigenous people out of poverty it imports more poor people from the third world.

If we want to help the poor in the world, then let's spend more on third world development so that every one there can benefit, not a few who break the law and come here illegally.

[Sean Fear]

Sean Fear. My god we can`t have that. Unskilled and poor foreigners being allowed into the country."

Well, I don't think it's morally right to damage the wages and employment prospects of people who are lawfully resident here nor to impose extra costs on the UK taxpayer.

You evidently think otherwise.

[David_at_Home]

“My god we can`t have that. Unskilled and poor foreigners being allowed into the country. Some of those unskilled people could actually contribute greatly to the country if allowed to do so.”

If they work, Jack, they may contribute to the overall national GDP but, if they earn less than the average wage, they will reduce the GDP per head of population.

“Most of who come here for no other reason than trying to build a better life for themselves and there families. Lets show them compassion not racism.”

To how many must we “show compassion” by allowing them to settle on the beautiful but sadly overcrowded island? Five million? Ten million? 50 million? A billion?

PS to Ian: In farness to Jack Stone, I cannot really imagine him sitting down to a “nice middle class dinner party”. Maybe he could after Sally has completed her male “Eliza Doolittle job” on him.

[Sean Fear]

"PS to Ian: In farness to Jack Stone, I cannot really imagine him sitting down to a “nice middle class dinner party”.

I can't imagine anyone would want to invite him to one, can you?

[Sally Roberts]

"PS to Ian: In farness to Jack Stone, I cannot really imagine him sitting down to a “nice middle class dinner party”. Maybe he could after Sally has completed her male “Eliza Doolittle job” on him."

David LOL!! I do enjoy a challenge...

[Angry ex Tory]

Sean Fear. "My god we can`t have that. Unskilled and poor foreigners being allowed into the country."

too true old son - They breed. 11% now. How long before we are a minority? The British, nay the English, are being ethnically cleansed from their own nation. Thank God I will be dead before this horror comes. What a tragic end to a once great nation. Like seeing a favourite Aunt in her old age drooling in a gutter.

[Jack Stone]

The difference between myself and most on this thread is that when I see illegal immigrants I see people in need of compassion not the human eqvalient of dog poo!
These people do jobs that most British workers will not do. If it wasn`t for them many sectors in our country would actually have a shortage of labour. The farming sector to name but one.
I am all for strong immigration policies but I believe we need to do this with compassion.
As for sally. If you are a candidate for the party as I am lead to believe all I can say is god help us. You are the sort of woman that as help give the Conservative Party a bad name.

[Ed West]

A big mistake, I hope he changes his mind. It's better that people work than rot on benefits, but most are poorly paid and pay little in tax. I believe the cost for health and education alone would easily dwarf the benefits.

[Sean Fear]

"The difference between myself and most on this thread is that when I see illegal immigrants I see people in need of compassion not the human eqvalient of dog poo!"

The difference between you and most on this thread is that we think British citizens are in need of compassion whereas you think they're the human equivalent of dog poo.

[Iain]

"These people do jobs that most British workers will not do."

A situation created by the self enforcing policy of mass immigration, that lowers the wage rates of work, which, for the rates of pay on offer can only be fulfilled by low wage immigrants prepared to live 10 to a house, or illegals!

[Sally Roberts]

"As for sally. If you are a candidate for the party as I am lead to believe all I can say is god help us. You are the sort of woman that as help give the Conservative Party a bad name."

Thank you Jack! If I ever stand as a candidate (I am not one currently) I will make sure I put your comment on my Election literature as an endorsement...!

[David_at_Home]

Some way still to go on the “Eliza Doolittle" task for Jack Stone, I fear!

Jack, Sally Roberts and I disagree on many things but she is always courteous and good natured to me and to others on this MB. In polite society it is generally possible to discuss and debate things, even in a robust manner, without descending to personal abuse. It helps if you want to get people to vote for you too. I’m sure Sally would make an excellent Conservative Party candidate, should she wish to stand.

[Iain]

"PS to Ian: In farness to Jack Stone, I cannot really imagine him sitting down to a “nice middle class dinner party”."

Well may be a champagne socialist dinner party, where they parade their 'world' consciences whilst condemning their fellow citizen to scrap with the worlds poor for a living. In fact you get the feeling that they ease their consciences and pangs of guilt regarding their gluttony by condemning their fellow citizens to the gutter and do so with a torrent of abuse by labelling them as lazy, idle, scroungers, which if directed at any other group would be called racist.

[Sally Roberts]

"I’m sure Sally would make an excellent Conservative Party candidate, should she wish to stand."

Thank you for your kind words, David! Perhaps I would even persuade you to vote for me (though I suspect that is a pipe dream...) ;-)

[David_at_Home]

Sally,

I vote for the Cameroon led Tory Party?

Never in a thousand years!

But it would be a pleasure to stand against you.

[RichardJ]

"The difference between myself and most on this thread is that when I see illegal immigrants I see people in need of compassion not the human eqvalient of dog poo!"

The difference is that you are a troll and a bore.

[RichardJ]

"too true old son - They breed. 11% now. How long before we are a minority? The British, nay the English, are being ethnically cleansed from their own nation."

This is the big elephant in the room when it comes to the immigration debate. I suspect it hovers on the minds of many people and is important recruiting propaganda for the BNP. Will politicians ever dare to discuss it?

[Dorothy Wilson]

Oh dear Boris! There are times when you brighten our day with something to make us smile. Not this time. There should be no amnesty for a number of reasons, including:

1. I believe Spain tried this and found that there was soon a need for another amnesty, and then another etc etc

2. Labour has used unfettered immigration to disguise the failure of its education policy. If our people don't have the skills just let in people who do. Do you really want NuL to get away with that?

4. Unfettered immigration - and the resulting cheap labour - has meant some businesses have not given the attention that needs to be given to improving productivity and the rest of it. We simply cannot afford to let that go on.

5. "Immigrants do the jobs our people will not do". Well, aren't there large numbers of NEETS around? Surely, if they won't do the jobs that are available they should not be entitled to any support from the state.

6. If the scares about global warning are anything like correct, we should be looking at reducing the population of this country not increasing it. That will require some very, very robust strategic thinking. More's the pity that there seems to be little of that around currently.

7. The level of immigration we have at the moment has been allowed to happen without the consent of the ordinary people. To grant an amnesty will be yet another kick in the teeth for those people. They have been very tolerant so far but there may well be a tipping point and that might not be too far away.

8. The current situation with illegals has arisen because of Labour's laissez faire attitude [which has probably been deliberate]. To prevent trouble in the future we need to be tough, very tough. No immigrant - legal or illegal - should be entitled to any benefits from our social security system, health service, social housing etc. until they have contributed to National Insurance for at least 5 years, and preferably 10. No-one should be allowed into the country unless they have a good command of English.

9. Illegal immigrants have broken the law. An amnesty will simply condone that. Contempt for the legal system is bad enough as it is without adding to it.

10. Conservative Party has had to work very hard to get to its current position in the opinion polls. Any hint of an amnesty and the current lead is likely to disappear down the plug hole and fast. Do you really want to condemn us to another 5 years of Labour?

And if people like Jack Stone think I am being hard on some poor down-trodden people, well I'm sorry. We are living in a country where the resources - land, water, food production etc - are finite. If we are to look after our own people, we simply cannot play hosts to the rest of the world. That may be tough but it is realistic.

[David Lindsay]

How the BNP must rue giving its second preference votes to Boris Johnson. That Ottoman aristocrat of very recent extraction, who has publicly recited the Shahada in Arabic and whose television programmes are shot through with hatred of Christianity, now wants an amnesty for illegal immigrants.

Well, of course he does. He is committed to an economic system which cannot function without the unrestricted global movement of labour as surely as the unrestricted global movement of goods, services and capital. You cannot have any of those four with all three of the others. Johnson understands that, as does his party. So don’t vote for him, and don’t vote for his party.

[Sally Roberts]

"ow the BNP must rue giving its second preference votes to Boris Johnson. That Ottoman aristocrat of very recent extraction, who has publicly recited the Shahada in Arabic and whose television programmes are shot through with hatred of Christianity, now wants an amnesty for illegal immigrants."

David Lindsay, would you like to tell us precisely where Boris has expressed "hatred for Christianity"?! As for sneering at his Turkish ancestry - if you had watched the fascinating programme in the series "Who Do You Think You Are?" you would see that Boris has forebears from a number of different countries - not only the Ottoman Empire but also Germany and France (of his Dear "Granny Butter" he said something along the lines of "When I said they were Alsatians I meant the country - not that they were dogs...!" Our Mayor clearly had great affection for and pride in them all.

As for his recitation of the "shahada" (and he was not doing so in order to convert to Islam..) - this shows that he is familiar with the Quran. My grandfather was a Sanskrit scholar - that did not make him a Hindu!

[David Lindsay]

After Rome was classic "The Christians Ruined Antiquity" stuff. Very Oxford Classicist, I'm told.

"he was not doing so in order to convert to Islam" - doing it is enough, and once you're in, you can't leave.

[Sally Roberts]

"he was not doing so in order to convert to Islam" - doing it is enough, and once you're in, you can't leave."

I am not sure you're right about that, David - I think you have to have witnesses who are clear about the reason you are doing it. Otherwise we'd probably have quite a few "accidental Muslims", wouldn't we?

[Jack Stone]

The sad fact at the end of the day is that unlike members of the BNP who at least have the courage to admit they are racist the Conservative party are full of people who are but lack the courage to admit it.
Glad to hear that your not a candidate at present Sally. Long may it remain so!

[Iain]

"the Conservative party are full of people who are but lack the courage to admit it."

No just people who see the sheer insanity of the circus that is the immigration and asylum system and not prepared to be shouted down for saying so, even if some ignorant left wingers do shout racist.

Here's another one to add to our 'diversity'

"Saddam Hussein's crony Tariq Aziz applies for political asylum in Britain"

"Saddam Hussein's former righthand man - cleared on Monday of crimes against humanity - has applied for political asylum in Britain.

Tariq Aziz (above), the former deputy prime minister of Iraq, also wants to bring eight members of his family.

If approved, they would need two houses and benefits to live on, plus health care for Aziz, 72, who has been ill during six years in custody."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/03/08/saddam-crony-s-bid-for-uk-home-115875-21180310/

[David Lindsay]

"Otherwise we'd probably have quite a few "accidental Muslims", wouldn't we?"

Not all THAT many. When would most people EVER recite the Shahada?

Johnson is significantly more pro-Muslim than pro-Christian. In fact, he is really very anti-Christian. I wonder why...?

And now this...

[Sally Roberts]

"Glad to hear that your not a candidate at present Sally. Long may it remain so!"

Thank you Jack! I am entirely gutted that you won't be voting for me any time soon ;-)

[Sally Roberts]

"When would most people EVER recite the Shahada?"

I really don't know, David but Boris has always been a law unto himself! Do I get the feeling you are trying to persuade us that Boris is a "secret Muslim"? I am sure if he HAD converted (which would be his absolute right - after all I converted from Christianity to Judaism) he would be quite happy to share that fact with us.

No I think the Mayor recited the Shahada purely to illustrate that he knew the Quran and some classical arabic. If you remember at the time of the Campaign leading up to his Election, Ken Livingstone was putting around some appalling misinformation to the end that Boris "hated Muslims" - in a misguided effort to get the Muslims to vote for him! It backfired spectacularly.

[Ross warren]

"too true old son - They breed. 11% now. How long before we are a minority? The British, nay the English, are being ethnically cleansed from their own nation. "

Exactly my feelings on the issue. Maybe that makes me a bad person but I do feel that we are being suckers letting these people get away with it. Those who are here illegally are effectively stealing every penny they make. In most cases they are also avoiding paying local tax's and are stealing again from the English needy. Far to many people already have a legal right to come and live/work here, so we do not want or need those who have no right. Illegals are criminals and are often engaged in criminal activities. As an example in this town we have recently busted a number of grass factories. In every case the gardener turned out to be an illegal immigrant. Then we also have the expense of imprisoning them in many cases. In this case Boris's pragmatic viewpoint is utterly wrong. I do hope he isn't turning into a pinko.

[Malcolm Shykles]

So these illegal immigrants are going to vote conservative?

Democracy is being constantly undermined in this country.

First the left wing parties make everybody dependant on the state and then fill the country with cheap labour.

[Jack Stone]

Sally I doubt that many people would vote for you. I am probably one of many.

[Sally Roberts]

Jack, you may well be right - so perhaps it is a good thing I am not intending to put myself forward!

Now back on topic - the Panorama programme is on very shortly so you may wish to watch it and see if you can come up with some intelligent comments afterwards, couched in reasonable English. Have a go anyway, there's a Good Chap!

[Sean Fear]

Sally I doubt that many people would vote for you. I am probably one of many."

I think it most unlikely that anyone as left wing and as unpatriotic as you would vote for Sally, or any other Conservative.

[Sally Roberts]

Having just watched the programme, I am sorry Boris, it just won't do! You have come up with the idea out of the goodness of your heart but I am afraid the timing absolutely stinks and it simply sends out the message that illegality pays!
It's not even politically clever - a Punjabi gentleman quoted on the programme said he would vote Labour - "All the Punjabi Brothers Like Labour...."!
I am afraid this idea deserves a big thumbs down.

[David]

Couldn't see anything at all in the programme to back up Boris's argument - entirely the opposite. In fact, sick of seeing him wittering on.

[Martin Wright]

Yes Sally, my worst fears were confirmed, in that illegal immigrants can vote (illegally). I assume it depends on individual local authorities and their electoral registration officers. But it wouldn't be a surprise if (purely coincidentally of course) the worst offenders were Labour councils in "multicultural areas". And then they moan about the building of ghettos etc.

Labour knows that 70% of legal immigrants vote Labour once they are entitled. And if illegals are regularised, an even higher proportion will vote Labour. Labour's policy of mass immigration has been gerrymandering on a huge scale, yet no one has had the guts to openly condemn it.

[Ruth]

I am getting a tad fed up with 'legal' immigrants not paying taxes, or rather, the employers who pay them cash.

[Super Blue]

"Some of those unskilled people could actually contribute greatly to the country if allowed to do so." - Jock Stale.

Do you read your own posts before sending or do you not understand the word "unskilled"?

[Tom H]

I think this comment yesterday on LewRockwell.com pretty much sums up both sides of the immigration debate:

"Each side of the immigration debate is mostly bonkers. The pro-immigration side has a small cluster of rational people, concerned about individual freedom and businesses being able to hire whom they want, but the majority are agents of the state's political correctness protocol who want to change radically the demographic composition of the US [Britain], though they never seem to live in affected areas. That, and not freedom, is their motive. The anti-immigration side also has a small cluster of rational people, worried about the state's use of mass population movements and private property questions, but the larger part are nationalists, protectionists, and fascists. They want national IDs, jail for businessmen who hire the wrong people, the outlawing of outsourcing, and the promotion of group conflict."

[Doreen]

I think Boris is either a New Labour mole, or a fifth columnist.
Or a person with a death wish who is quite, quite mad!
Does he mistakenly believe that illegals given amnesty would secure a second term for him as Mayor?

[Cllr Alexa Michael]

An amnesty for illegal immigrants would send entirely the wrong message to those looking to enter Britain. Once one wave of illegal immigrants had been allowed to stay, there would be a second wave and then a third.

All these people would enter Britain knowing that they would be allowed to stay because a precedent had already been set. This has happpened in Spain already.

The process for deporting illegal immigrants who have no right to be here MUST be speeded up. I agree that employers who employ illegal labour should be fined.

Thousands of people among the indigenous UK workforce are being thrown on to the job market every day because of the recession. An amnesty for illegal immigrants would result in huge anger among large sections of the population.

[Blade]

To all of you boring ppl with the good or bad comments above, one message for you:

Come on Boris, I hope you win this!

[Neville]

Boom and bust all over again .Well this time it is bust the banks are broke,the system is broke .Take action now and and deport illegals.Not only for their own good but for the sake of the country when the riots break out the cost of damage that will be caused by the street skirmishes will be wallet busting.The days of the liberal labour left are over.We are not gamblers we are planners for the future.Keep your chins up.

[Peter Watson]

It is time WE took control of the language and wrested it from the Marxists. These people are illegal ALIENS they are NOT illegal IMMIGRANTS!

[S R Teji]

Before granting amnesty, the character of each illegal immigrant should be verified minutely and then they must be granted citizenship in the UK to make this country more powerful and strong by adding one million persons(illegals).China a dense populated country of 1.3 billion and India a nation of 1.1 billion poulation, are the powerful and strong countries which are also economically progressing day by day having almost 'zero' effects of global recession on these countries. A nation alone is never strong.It is their population which make it to grow strong. By granting amnesty to one million immigrants, even to the illegals, naturally this country will become more strong and powerful. But no room for Criminals,They must be kicked out please.