Margaret Thatcher was the greatest peacetime Prime Minister of modern times but conservatism can't fossilise

Jonathan has noted The Observer's interpretation of a David Cameron email exchange with Will Hutton as a further distancing of the Conservatives from Margaret Thatcher.

Every Conservative leader since 1990 has had to tread carefully in his relationship with the greatest peacetime Prime Minister of modern times.  We should, however, now be mature enough to define a conservatism for today that isn't understood as a repudiation of her extraordinary achievements.

America's Republicans have something of the same problem with Ronald Reagan.  The Heritage Foundation even ran a What Would Reagan Do? series - modelled on the What Would Jesus Do? campaign that many Christian use as a life compass. 

In her memoirs Margaret Thatcher expressed regret that she ran out of time to undertake 'Social Thatcherism' - a programme for renewal of family life and action against crime.  If she had stayed in office her policy priorities would have evolved and I think she would approve of a great deal of David Cameron's 'social responsibility' agenda.  A full three decades after Margaret Thatcher first entered Downing Street it isn't just reasonable for Mr Cameron to update the Conservative agenda - it is absolutely essential.

Tim Montgomerie

Comments

[David]

What is this dogmatic obsession with Thatcher? I remember when Conservatives were a pragmatic bunch. Of course,that was when they used to win elections.

[Umbrella man]

Agreed but we could do with politicians of her courage and honesty.

[rugfish]

Well maybe he should start with reading her speeches and understanding what she meant.

"My first guiding principle is this: willing and active cooperation between - 'independent sovereign states' - is the best way to build a successful European Community".

"To try to - 'suppress nationhood' - and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve".

Nuff said....

[NW Supporter]

I think MT is great and I am an out and out Thatcherite.

However, all these people who are concerned about Cameron 'ditching' Thatcher really don't have a clue what conservatism is.

Edmund Burke was one of the grandfathers of conservatism. He talked about it in respect of the French Revolution. He said that all those involved in the French Revolution stuck to a dogma/theory and conservatism was totally different.

Conservatism was pragmatic. No such dogma to follow. That is why we don't have a written constitution.

Don't you see, by forging his own conservatism - a more responsible social sort - Cameron is actually sticking to true conservative values. Just as Thatcher did, she forged her own sort for the 80s. But that wouldn't work today.

Our conservatism changes all the time. We are able to react to things and change, unlike Labour who have been weighed down for generations with that silly clause 4 socialist dogma.

So Cameron IS actually being true to conservatism - just like thatcher. A different time, a different response. That is the very essence of conservatism.

[bill]

Tim

Why the need for two posts on essentially the same theme.

[Phyllis Crash]

Mrs T made five big mistakes:

(1) Supported Jim Callaghan's extravagant public sector pay settlement
(2) Too many wets in her early cabinets
(3) Allowed monetarist fundamentalists too much power in first term creating an unnecessarily deep recession in the process
(4) Not waking up to EU problem until it was too late
(5) Stopping listening after her early successes.

[Tim Montgomerie]

Sorry bill if you think I'm duplicating but I thought Jonathan covered the controversy earlier. I wanted to make - I hope - the different point that Cameron is right to update the Conservative mission.

I won't be looking at the site until late tonight now so apologies if I don't respond to further comments.

[bill]

Thnaks for the lesson in political history NW supporter. It does not follow that Cameron has the right answers to our problems which strike me as a return to the wishy washy pre-Thatcher conservatism that let Labour run the country into the ground. Funnily enough haven't Labour just done the same thing again opposed by a spineless opposition party. I think the Cameroons continue to have the zeitgeist wrong; we need a new Thatcher not an heir to Blair.

[The Bishop swine]

Maggot was a girl of her time and thank G*d we had her. However it's time to move on, or we will end up missing out on today's "new" opportunities. I think Dave can be greater than her, most especially if he can look after the whole Nation, not just the lucky few. I am totally in favour of updating the party, and moving with the times. Perhaps now is a good time for us to redefine what being a Conservative means in the 21st Century.

[James Burdett]

bill - I think that thing about Conservatism is that the country at large is naturally more inclined to the ideals of the other side. It is often claimed that we are a small 'c' conservative country. I think that is a historic misreading, I think it comes about from having a successful Conservative party. The reasons for Conservative success under Thatcher was not that she was radical from day one, but that she trod carefully and as circumstances allowed she became more radical. Cameron has a similar trick to pull off in that he can only hint at how radical he may prove because he needs to win. If Cameron came out with the kind of Conservative message that many on these boards seem to imply I don't think we would be in such a dominant position.

[bill]

James

I understand your analysis. What concerns me is that from day one Cameron's mood music has been too consensual, too laid back, too wet etc etc, whether it was chocolate oranges, hoodies, windmills. Conversely where IMO it really matters-the economy- they missed big time. It has been clear for years that we were heading for a major bust with or without sub-prime. But the Tories took their eye of the ball. It wasn't long ago that they wanted to share the proceeds of growth for God's sake. And as noted a few days ago Cameron's Tories gave Blair a standing ovation: Blair the man who declared his opposition to the forces of conservatism. I have seen more than enough of Cameron to be cautious and unwilling to accept it is all smoe and mirrors designed not to frighten the horses. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is in all likelihood a duck.

[house mouse]

James Burdett @12.22, I really, really hope that you are right. I too, comfort myself with that thought, but then doubts as expressed by Bill @12.38 creep in and I worry about another lost Conservative political generation

[DCMX]

But what is Thatcherism? Some see it as a libertarian project, all about freedom. Some see it as an earthy British project about the work ethic and traditional values. Some see it as a purist ideological project. Others remember an unwillingness to tackle the BBC, NHS, welfare state.

[bill]

DCMX

Thatcherism certainly wasn't Labour Lite.

[The Bishop Swine]

"If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is in all likelihood a duck"

Or a Hawk playing at being a Duck. This is my reading of Dave, he is saying what is needed to get elected. You have to look more closely at what he is not saying, to get the message to the party.

[Tony Makara]

People often tend to overlook what a huge influence Sir Keith Joseph was on Margaret Thatcher. Although I can't say I agreed with everything he proposed, at least he offered an alternative, even if that alternative was more a reaction to statism than a political philosophy in itself. Try to imagine Thatcherism without Sir Keith? I can't.

[NW Supporter]

DCMX - I think it was an academic called Andrew Gamble that described Thatcherism as a 'free economy and a strong state'. That's the best definition I've heard.

[JS]

Cameron has far more simularities with Blair than Thatcher - wet, woolly minded and no apparent principles other than to gain power - certainly not a true Conservative by any means.

[JS]

Apologies for the typing error - 'similarities' !!

[Old Hack]

It's always been my understanding that Mrs T would have liked to have pressed on with root and branch reform of Whitehall. Something that deeply frustrated Digby Jones recently.

That aside, perhaps Thatcher's greatest lesson is that she didn't particularly respect lessons from the past. If she had tried to sidestep the issues that had defeated her predecessor perhaps she may not have lasted.

So frankly, it's not at all relevant what Mrs T would do or what DC would do differently to her, but what David Cameron WILL do that is relevant.

[StevenAdams]

I disagree with Bill - Cameron is not Labour Lite. In fact, if you read anything he says, the policy contrasts are extremely stark. Google 'PMQs Cameron Blair NHS targets' and witness a great session between these two arguing the benefits/disbenefits of state micro management and target setting in the NHS. This is illustrative of their politics - they come from different ends of the spectrum, politically. Where they are similar is that they use moderate language... not the strident and aggressive language of Tebbit, Prescott or so on.

[A Candid Mover]

Try this differently. In business we use the analysis of best practice in order to identify and implement proven systems both in terms of hard commercial, measurable, business outcomes and less measurable human behavioural outcomes. In politics the driving imperative, the bottom line, is being in government.

Our Maggie was particularly good at delivering this outcome and, therefore, we should analyse her legacy rather than appease the Prog-Rock Tory Tendency by denying our inheritance.

What worked? It will work again.

Back with industry/business/the real economy. In an industrial process you use a manufacturing fault log or equivalent such that when the line fails and you engineer a solution you routinely record that solution in order not to repeat effort and to improve line efficiencies. Maggie engineered solutions and they are on record so why distance the party from proven models of success?

Will Barrack Obama be distancing himself from JFK?

[David Belchamber]

"In her memoirs Margaret Thatcher expressed regret that she ran out of time to undertake 'Social Thatcherism' - a programme for renewal of family life and action against crime".

This is probably a good opportunity (before the trolls weigh in) to remind ourselves what MT actually said in 1987 about society:

"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant'. 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.'
They're casting their problem on society.

And, you know, there is no such thing as society. THERE ARE INDIVDUAL MEN AND WOMEN, AND THERE ARE FAMILIES (my caps).

And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation".

Compare and discuss with reference to society in the UK in 2009!!!

PS ED - where is the autofill these days?

[The Bishop swine]

"The Prog-Rock Tory Tendency" excellent but who came out on top in the end? A band that had roots in the public school system, but which knew when that it needed a working class backbone to hold the show together. For those of you who do not "get" what your Bishop is saying perhaps A Candid Mover would like to elaborate.

Is it any wonder some of us don't hold the Maggot in quite as high esteem as many of the more privileged. Thatcher Divided this Nation and ended up alienating more progressive Tory's. Dave has not yet made the same mistake.

[bill]

"Thatcher Divided this Nation". It was already divided. Were you alive in 1979. But she had the courage to do soemthing about it.

[The Bishop's Wife]

To put it bluntly ship mates she is not coming back and the Future is certainly DC.
Let's not get too over wrought about yesterdays heroin. After all this nation has been the subject of systemically corrupt and poor governance for over a century and probably a great deal longer.

[The Bishop swine]

"Were you alive in 1979. But she had the courage to do soemthing about it."

Divide it somemore !

[The Bishop swine]

I think as a party we underestimate G.O., we recently had quite a collective go at him and yet he has not changed his style a bit.
Exactly what D.C. & G.O. have planned we are certainly not privy to. Those of you that imagine in your blindness, that in D.C.'s the velvet glove does not contain an Iron fist are clearly not paying attention. Look to what is not said, rather than getting sidelined by what is. I recommend you look a little into the History of Eton school before imaging that our Top school has produced a dud.

[Cicero]

Enough of this absurd nonsense of Thatcher being dogmatic. She was reversing the dangerous socialist dogma of consensus politics. This is not ideological but ANTI-ideological.

If it weren't for her, the UK economy would have sunk a long time ago. At least now, despite Labour squandering, we have a chance at climbing out of this recession.

[Politico]

She decimated our heavy industry and made us overly reliant on a service based, WEALTH CONSUMING, economy.

Thatcherite economics is directly responsible for the mess we are in just now. It was/is followed feverishly by messers blair and brown - where the government falls back on a city where the wealth is now revealed to be nothing more than monopoly money.

We need to be a nation that makes things, with industry controlled by BRITISH companies.

I hope cameron has a plan for when he is PM, we cannot allow the service based model to continue. Heavy industry must return.

Royal navy re-armament anyone? Jobs, industry and security all in one.

[bill]

"our Top school": sounds like a tabloid headline. Why should the fact Dave went to Eton give me confidence in him. And GO gives me no confidence either.

[bill]

Politico

With all the rewriting of history going on it is worth noting that until Maggie and her supporters in the Tory party took control, our state owned industries were loss making and not so much bleeding as haemorrhaging or country dry. Our country in parts was doing a not bad impersonation of Eastern European Communist states. But since when did the truth stop a good story. BTW, decimate means one in ten.

[The Bishop swine]

Our Leader is DC, That much is settled.

Royal navy re-armament anyone? Jobs, industry and security all in one.

Absolutly and whats more America will support us in this, so we can always defend Europe at least on paper.

However how do we ensure that British money buys British jobs? A certain amount of bloody minded, protectionism becomes a security issue and a question of National survival.

[The Bishop's wife]

"our Top school": sounds like a tabloid headline. Why should the fact Dave went to Eton give me confidence in him. And GO gives me no confidence either"

Not much of a party member are you? Your lack of confidence betrays you as disloyal at best and therefore useless as a political solder.

[bill]

I seem to recall that even at the peak of Stalinist Communist Russia's planned economy the service sector still accounted for about half the economy's output. Yes we should make more in the UK. But one should not ignore the economics.

[Tony Makara]

"Enough of this absurd nonsense of Thatcher being dogmatic. She was reversing the dangerous socialist dogma of consensus politics. This is not ideological but ANTI-ideological."

Cicero, have you been swatting up on Ayers 'Criterion of meaning'? Surely the definition of dogma-driven ideology is standing up before party and nation and declaring that you are not for turning, even when your policies are clearly damaging the nation. I can't see David Cameron standing on principle if things are going badly, Mr Cameron is someone who won't flog a dead horse. Thank god our next PM will be a true pragmatist, and a man that listens to others.

[bill]

I think GO has been and continues to be out of his depth (like most of the Tory shadow cabinet).

[The Bishop Swine]

"Enough of this absurd nonsense of Thatcher being dogmatic. She was reversing the dangerous socialist dogma of consensus politics. This is not ideological but ANTI-ideological."

In fact she was great just so long as you were not unemployed. The moment the Job hungry were rewarded with an opportunity they would switch to loving her. Even I think of her with some degree of fondness.
We had more real freedom then, even if for some it ended in a punch up with the police.
There wasn't the sickening Political correctness to dull the minds of the young and control the minds of the stupid. Britain was far from perfect under her, but it did turn the corner (for a while) and it certainly survived.

[bill]

Really Bishop Swine. I would hazard a guess that individual benefits were better under Thatcher's Tories in real terms (adjusted) than they are today.

[Tony Makara]

At least the poor had access to free dental treatment during the Thatcher years. Its a national disgrace that people now don't even have access to free check-ups and that serious conditions like oral cancer or cancer of the throat cannot be caught early.

A Conservative government must bring back free dental treatment for the poorest sections or at least a deferred payment scheme in which those out of work can be treated now and pay later. Forty to sixty pounds for a modest check-up is too much for someone with a disposable income of sixty pounds a week. Since the time of Mr Howard, the Conservative party has been woeful in explaining to the public how Labour has destroyed NHS dentistry.

[john broughton]

I believe a lot of contributors to this thread fail to remember quite where this country was in 1979. Certainly we had a substantial manufacturing base but great chunks of it were only sustained through subsidy - principally selective employment tax. Does this strike a chord with recent events?

The steel, coal, automotive (and many others) industries needed radical restructuring as did the unions' restrictive practices (significantly contributing to the decline of those same industries). The country was still reeling from IMF intervention.

We all know what Margaret's response to the problems were and the changes were dramatic. I believe that had the major industries (steel, automotive and even coal) been subject to the rigours of the free market rather than Labour's protection then we may well have retained significant elements of them today.

The shortest summary of Thatcherism is that it was a recipe to mend our broken economy.

David Cameron's problem will be much the same except that the structure of the economy is somewhat different and I believe that Cameronism will emerge.

One underlying problem that Thatcherism failed to address (and as yet there is little evidence of Cameronism addressing same) is our apalling public education system in which the left wing bias continues unabated. Please can we aspire to the best rather than continue with labour's legacy of lowest common denominator. Selection works!

[JS]

It will always be Thatcher's greatest achievement that she destroyed the militant trade union movement which was the real force that was destroying the economy and the country. Remember the winter of 1979 and the top tax rate of 98% - or encourage younger voters to study it. Under her, Conservative voters got real Conservative policies - that is what any right-voting elector should expect. With Cameron we look like getting a continuation of New Labour ones. Labour Governments and Labour policies have always ended in economic disaster and always will.

[JS]

Lady Thatcher's greatest achievement was that she smashed the militant trade unions which were the real force destroying the country and the economy. Remember the winter of 1979 and the top rate of tax 98% -
with Thatcher Conservative voters could at least expect Conservative policies. All Cameron seems to offer is a carbon copy of New Labour ones in a vain attempt to woo people who will never vote Right ever. Labour Governments and left wing policies have always resulted in economic disaster and always will. As Conservatives we should have the courage of our convictions and realise the inherent impossibility of so-called consensus politics - leave that to the wishy-washy Lib-Dems !

[The Bishop Swine]

"Really Bishop Swine. I would hazard a guess that individual benefits were better under Thatcher's Tories in real terms (adjusted) than they are today."

Oh I dare say you are right. If I recall £15 pw. That was very little comfort if you happened to be out of work for a year or two. It was also Dear Maggot who increased the Unemployment benefit by exactly 1p. So let's not carried away in her praise. Even in 81 £2.00 a day was near impossible to live on. Whats more the weeks turned to months and then to years for far to many people. Unemployment is always bad and is never a "price worth paying". We should remember that and try our level best not to loose site of the suffering around us.

[The Bishop Swine]

"At least the poor had access to free dental treatment during the Thatcher years."

The deserving poor still have a right in principal to free dental care. However not everyone can access the service. We would have to look at which health authorities are failing before we could work out exactly who is to be blamed. It was not that long ago that gold teeth were still part of the treatment, carers could (rightly) expect to receive as part of their right to treatment.

[Tony Makara]

"Thatcher's greatest achievement that she destroyed the militant trade union movement"

I was told by a senior person in the party and a former member of government, that this was behind the deliberate shift from manufacturing to services, something that has left us with more people on benefits than the whole population of Scotland.

Allowing manufacturing to die in order to wipe out a few Marxists who had hijacked the union movement was a dreadful piece of short-termism. Under Mr Major this error was reversed to a point, but since 1997 manufacturing has collapsed.

Hopefully when manufacturing returns, as it must, if we are to re-balance and revive our economy, then the unions will be democratic and there will be no need of a big broom approach again.

[The Bishop swine]

"Allowing manufacturing to die in order to wipe out a few Marxists who had hijacked the union movement was a dreadful piece of short-termism."

That wasn't the reason much of our industry died. Fact is we were inefficient and the Trade union's did not help. I do note that some manufacturers experienced hard times but kept going and up till recently were doing just fine. I'll give you an example off the top of my head. Bunce Ashbury lmt, the inventors of the metal snowplough.A family owned company Bunce Ashbury is run by a churched Family, and there is no Union and very little industrial strife at the plant.
I suspect the snow blowing in today will help boost their order book further. We need way more companies like Bunce Ashbury who practice excatly what they believe, if we are to weather the coming international storm.

[resident leftie]

Thatcher? Hah! So many of our current woes can be laid at her door.

Clement Atlee was the greatest Prime Minister in the 20th Century. What did she do which compares to the NHS?

[The Bishop swine]

Resident Leftie, she stopped the rapid terminal decline of the UK. I am not a 100% fan of the Maggot, but she certainly had an impact on the UK that was both positive, and negative depending on were you happened to be at the time. What really worries me is the ridiculous support that she is still able to generate. She has passed into legend and many of the Myth's loose site of her divisive nature and her willingness to sacrifice some groups for the benefit of others. I want the Party to move on and embrace change. The times have changed and the challenges are different. To start with we need to rebuild a lot of the industry that disappeared during the reign of dogma that Thatcher unleashed on us. The sad thing is that after the return of sane Conservative politics under Honest John we have had the very bad fortune to have Mclabour, which has made a bad situation even worse. Frankly we need as a Nation to break with the Dogma of the past and start to run this country properly again. Labour is incapable and morally corrupt into the bargain. DC is still completely untried and untested but its hard to believe he and his team could do any worse than Comrade Brown.
At least as Conservatives we have a sound ideology, and our ONE NATION approach is exactly the medicine this Nation needs right now.

[Jack Stone]

Thatcher created the selfish society. She turned a society where people did care and look out for there neighbour to one that is me, me , me.
She is responsible for the breakdown of society in Britain. She is responsible for a society where people have no respect or feeling for there fellow citizen.
Clemet Attle was the best post-war Prime Minister we had because he changed Britain for the better. Thatcher changed it for the worse.

[Jack Stone]

Thatcher created the selfish society. She turned a society where people did care and look out for there neighbour to one that is me, me , me.
She is responsible for the breakdown of society in Britain. She is responsible for a society where people have no respect or feeling for there fellow citizen.
Clemet Attle was the best post-war Prime Minister we had because he changed Britain for the better. Thatcher changed it for the worse.

[snegchui]

No she didn't. She told people to practise self-reliance, that there was no abstract society from whence would/could come free help and support. That "free help and support" is paid for by the neighbours." I remember arguing with a strong leftie over why Maggie was so hated and in the end it came down to the fact she had broken the myth of cradle-to-the-grace support by the State (Society), something which was very dear to him and to see it exposed as a myth , devastating.
All Societies require the greater part to produce more than they consume, any society that doesn't is doomed to poverty and misery as the old Eastern Bloc states were because the Govt destroyed the will and incentive to be self-reliant.
So Jack Stone, Maggie was painful and strident, but she did improve Britain an awful lot.

[Super Blue]

Stone gives us the final proof that he is not and never has been a Conservative.

[Jack Stone]

Super Bore. There were an awful lot of Conservatives who disagreed with Thatcher. That is why she got kicked out in the end.
Margaret Thatcher did change Britain for the worse because she made people think that the quality of life was all about money and she made people selfish. She didn`t believe in society and she made the British people feel the same.
Thatcher knew the price of everything and the value of nothing.

[snegchui]

She knew the price and the value of a long ongoing subsidy and when to change the game, which is a lot more than hidebound union leaders knew at the time.
All the things you moan about are to a larger (not total) extent down to union protectionism of their own loss-making industries and officials jobs and priviliges.
The Unions at the time had a golden opportunity to frame a new paradigm for transition, they failed their memebers and themselves big time. Yes it was done stridently.

[Sally Roberts]

I am convinced that there are several "Jack Stones"! Sadly, all are as boring as each other.

[RoadToSmurfdom]

How did Margaret create the selfish society? The Labour party is the party of selfishness - supporting the unions to get as much as they could for themselves, no matter what the cost to the rest of the country. The Thatcher Golden Legacy has paid for massive investment in our schools and the NHS over the last 10 years. It's just a shame it hasn't been used wisely and that future funding has been halted due to the poor management of the economy since she resigned.

[The Bishop Swine]

RoadToSmurfdom it was the Maggot who insisted that there was no such thing as society? An extraordinarily statement. This was the era of unemployment being a price worth paying for low inflation.The Thatcher Golden Legacy is nothing other than the lucky discovery of North Sea gas.

"It's just a shame it hasn't been used wisely and that future funding has been halted due to the poor management of the economy since she resigned."

The economy has been the subject of criminally poor governance since the fall of John Major's administration. A golden legacy certainly existed and was the result of a combination of luck, and the better than average, for post war britain, chancellorship of Ken Clarke. Which was built admittantly, on a conservative foundation laid towards the end of Mrs T's. run in office. We should stop obsessing about Thatcher's years in office, and work towards making the administration of D.C. the start of a golden 21st century for Great Britain.

[snegchui]

I fear somebody has been at the sherry early again. Where is Mrs Bishop, oh the danger of bad example abounds.
"Commercial extraction of oil on the shores of the North Sea dates back to 1851,"
"The largest field discovered in the past 25 years is Buzzard, found in June 2001"
See what a good Maggie she was, left some over, unfortunately squandered by the Clown and his dreary dreadful drolls

[Cicero]

...it was the Maggot who insisted that there was no such thing as society?

No. It was a misquote. She was an Alderman's daughter for pity's sake, very religious and deeply socially conservative. She definitely believed in society, just that it wasn't the state.

This was the era of unemployment being a price worth paying for low inflation.

Consensus politics had conned Britain into believing that rampant inflation was a price worth paying for overemployment. Thatcher reversed this. It wasn't pleasant, but the medicine was needed for recovery.

The unions and inefficiency destroyed manufacturing. Thatcher just forced the nation to confront the reality of the left's (which includes a lot of Tories) stupidity, which is why people hate her.

[The Bishop Swine]

I don't hate Her, I even admire some of what she achieved, but she is not coming back, now is she? Isn't it time to move with the times and encourage D.C. to be the PM we all know the Nation is in need of. I am concerned that we will end up like the Spanish did, with a long gone leaders dogmatic follows acting as a roadblock to much needed reform.
When is D.C. Going to get the kind of support that he needs to get the job done?

Oh and it's the wife who indulges in a little cherry b. Me never before 8pm and then rarely (Christmas being the exception)

[Dorothy Wilson]

"Clemet Attle was the best post-war Prime Minister we had because he changed Britain for the better. Thatcher changed it for the worse."

Actually, it was the reverse of that. Attlee was the Prime Minister who began to create the mess Thatcher had to clear up. He nationalised vast swathes of British industry. Admittedly that was done with the best of intentions - to provide jobs for the returning Armed Forces. However, in keeping with the law of unintended consequences, it led to serious over-manning. That, in turn, put a brake on improvements in productivity and investment for modernisation resulting in a serious lack of competitiveness. That created a discontented and low-skilled workforce and the situation where the communist-led unions - remember Red Robbo anyone? - seized control.

The Wilson/Callaghan administration compounded this situation by over-expansion in the public services,creating a bankrupt country and causing Healey to go cap in hand to the IMF. Labour was then faced with a choice between cutting public services and putting up taxes.

Maggie had the guts to rescue us from all of that. Unfortunately, the Blair/Brown combination seem to have taken us back into the mire. They seem to have led an unholy combination of yet another over-expansion of public services financed by turning a blind eye to the worse excesses of capitalism because they needed the taxes those excesses generated.

We can only hope that Cameron - like Thatcher - has the guts to lead us out of this mess. If he hasn't then heaven help us. My instinct is that he has.

[Super Blue]

Sally,

I wonder whether the Editors invented Stone as a sort of Devil's Advocate to see which posters support Labour policy?

[wayne smith]

Can anyone please tell me how many people had been in Margaret Thatcher's cabinet by the time she left office ?

[Vince Spencer]

Its a shame that we cant bring Maggie back, as we sure need her now.
I cant see "call me Dave" getting us out of this mess that the unelected Scottish mafia have got us into, he is just another Blair.
I am not even sure if he is a Conservative.