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Whether *you* consider them to be British is irrelevant, Mr Green; only they can decide whether or not *they* consider themselves to be British. And there really isn't very much that encapsulates what 'Britishness' means these days; most of it's been eradicated by PC nonsense and the replacing of our popular culture with the US's.
I was born in the UK; I can trace my family on my father's side back to the fourteenth century. And I sure as hell don't feel British.
Perhaps that is because the fundamental, well, Britishness has been ironed out of this country as part of the socialist 'let's make everyone exactly the same and abolish anything that is reminiscent of class or privilege' dream.

"Anyone born in Britain is British"

Laughable, in this age of mass immigration. People can be born here of say Pakistani origins, refuse to learn English properly (or at all), go to a faith school, regard themselves as Muslim first, Pakistani second, think their own culture is superior and actively seek to destroy the Western way of life and yet some people think they are British?
If being British is not about ethnicity it's not worth having, let alone fighting and dying for.
Who would fight and die for a multiracial society instead eh?

Alex Swanson, very well said. The way I see it its being generous to the left to say they arent intelligent as the alternative would be that they do what they do on purpose.
I'm inclined to ignore resident leftie's counter "arguments" as the flaws are too numerous and too obvious for all readers - we should probably not waste our time and not encourage him.

ChrisjRead, I found your comment very amusing (in a good way), Completely wrong unfortunately - sorry to spoil what you imagined. Temperamentally you might not be too far off though sometimes.

Actually im 'English'.....and nothing else.

England predates the now laughably titled "United Kingdom" by SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS.

Britain as of 1707 was a Union of 'Nations', which has been null and void os of 1997/1998 when Scotland and Wales each voted for their "own" national Parliament and Assembly, which of course are nothing but EU Regional assemblies, with Scotland and Wales now nothing more than EU "Regions".

Its now time for an English Parliament.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3643/broonnationsandregionsjy4.jpg

>Liz Upton, well if you were born in China then according to Damien Green you are Chinese.

My whole point was that I *wasn't* - I was born in Grimsby. Which, according to you lot, makes me a fish finger.

"I was born in Spain whilst me mum was on Holiday and I'm English or indigenous."

Posted by: Joe

And there's the rub.

Somebody incapable of understanding either simple grammar or the meaning of the word indigenous is not somebody I want to share my country with.

Hence my theory that we should be rounding up and shipping off Daily Mail readers.

Imagine how well the country would do without such dross !

"If being British is not about ethnicity it's not worth having, let alone fighting and dying for."

Posted by: I hate PC

That's because you're a racist and not a patriot.

Still, good to see you have the courage of your convictions.

Where are you emigrating too ?

Wolfenstein:
"Somebody incapable of understanding either simple grammar"...."Where are you emigrating too ?"
No-one who can commit such syntactic atrocity in two successive posts should retain his citizenship IMO - probably one of those racist Daily Mail readers...

Wolfenstein, it sounds like it is you who is the bigot.

Your comments hardly constitute good pose style; not something anyone would care about if you did not attack others (incorrectly in my view). Can I suggest if you want to sneer at the way other people write or talk its a good idea not to confuse to and too.
You accuse someone else of racism (and I wonder if you have given any though to what it actually means) but it is you who sneers hatefully at others who disagree with you or who you dont approve of and wishes them to removed from the country.

1. I was born in England and am, therefor, English.
2. Mr. Green can regard until the cows come home, it will not change 1. above.

Didn't Wittgenstein say that most philosophical problems are really linguistic problems? This problem/issue simply arises from the conflation of two closely related adjectives: British1: referring to a legal status in relation to a territorial entity. This is a classifying adjective which has no comparative or superlative forms, is polar. You either are or aren’t british1 determining on certain external checks. It refers to a legal status.
British2 is a qualitative adjective elucidating a cultural affinity and attachment to the culture and people of a the territory known as Britain. It has comparative and superlative forms, “more British”, “most British”.

You can be British1 without being british2. The bearded chap in the following clip is british1 but not british2 by most people’s criteria. He would probably assent to this.

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/news/358/killing-of-non-muslims-is-legitimate-british-mullah/

One way round this problem would be to use instead of simply British, the terms "legally British" and "culturally British" in discourse on this topic.

Good lord, what intolerance being spurted here by intolerant racists - comparing foreigners to animals and the like. If I really thought those views represented the majority of Tory supporters I would never vote Tory again. Fortunately I know even if they are supporters, they're a small minority.

Green was not proposing to change immigration law. He was talking about how people should be viewed - i.e. your skin colour doesn't make you British/not British. At a time when people are getting worried about their jobs the rise of racist politics should be a matter of concern. If left to rot today it's Italian workers being harrassed, tomorrow it's Britons of Italian origin.

Politicians of course should be saying, at appropriate opportunities, that people born and raised in this country shouldn't be regarded with suspicion or discrimination just because their families didn't start off in the British Isles.

Surprisingly enough, when talking people don't read written essays about their entire views on nationality policy (unless it's at a formal dinner/debating meeting. We all make short comments and it is highly childish to jump on something when the meaning is so clear even someone at primary school could understand.

I broadly agree with Damian Green. But I would like to add that I personally regard anyone as British, who thinks of themselves as such.

Not really a legally sound basis for citizenship, but it makes a lot more sense than some views.

dcj. Where ever did you get the idea that Vespasian was African? He was born in Falacrina near Sabine Reate.

I consider anyone born in Britain who is fully integrated into the British way of life to be British. Simply being here is not enough of itself. However all people born here are subject to our laws, regardless of their allegiance to of society or not. This is one of those poison chalice issues, which has become very difficult to talk about as a direct result of the PC smoke screen. In this secular day and age it would of course be divisive to suggest that only those who are affiliated to the CofE can rightly claim full membership, but it might not be going to far to say that the common tongue is a mark of being British. Colour absolutely has no part to play. We have always been a nation of settled Immigrants, a tolerance of immigration is part of what makes Britain great.

"numbers of foreign born people they still fail to record the true impact of immigration because they record their children as British rather than second or third generation immigrants"

In many cases the children are British and excellent citizen-subjects to boot. However, I do understand the concern. How many generations does the process of nationalisation take? When does the old country stop being an influence? When is the family completely absorbed into the Nation?

I can totally understand the anger directed at those immigrants who continue to live as outsiders and who demand our acceptance of their rules. Of course a loyal oath would sort the chaff from the grain, but can you see our PC conscious professional politicians even considering such a radical move, let alone implementing it? Of course many will hold their hands up in horror at such a Nasty Idea.


As an Englishman I despise people with allegiances.

Everything I do is entirely driven by rationality based on my life experience - to behave against that due to some misconceived
perception of 'allegiance' would be an aberration.

The 'problem' that people experience in defining 'Britishness' is precisely this - we are the best of all we observe and all we experience. What we value in others we adopt, what we despise we discard.

There is little room for 'multi culturalism' because we will adapt by taking the good bits of new cultures and reject the bad bits - what positive aspects do alternative cultures have once we have sucked them dry of any value?

It's not about where you're born, it's about where you're brought up and what your cultural values are. If your family have been in the UK for hundreds of years and you don't speak English, then you're not British, likewise if you follow shari'ia law.

" If your family have been in the UK for hundreds of years and you don't speak English, then you're not British, likewise if you follow shari'ia law."

What about those few isolated pockets of welsh speaking that still persist in the north of that little nation? I suppose it is fair to say that English is the most important language spoken by the British but it is not the only one. Shari'ia law has no place in Britain and those misguided individuals who advocate allowing some communities to practice this "system" of law for some minor issues are barking up the wrong tree. I believe that the "little Baghdad's" that have become the hallmark of far to many of our city centres should be actively discouraged.These ghetto are very intimidating places for an English man at night. They are also the very visible sign of immigration having gone horrible wrong. Immigration should be the first step towards integration not the establishment of tiny states within our state. Those who integrate fully into the British way of life should indeed be considered British. Isn't that what we all want really and Britian enhanced by generations of immigrants not a nation torn apart by racial tension.

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