Damian Green: "I regard anyone born in Britain as British"

There's been some excitement across the blogosphere today at this passage in The Daily Mail:

"Although the figures from the Government's Office for National Statistics show an increase in numbers of foreign born people they still fail to record the true impact of immigration because they record their children as British rather than second or third generation immigrants."

Daniel Finkelstein asks "Does the Daily Mail think I'm British?"

Shadow Immigration Minister Damian Green MP does.  He's just issued this statement to ConHome:

"I regard anyone born in Britain as British, unless they choose to take another nationality. Whenever I speak to a large meeting I ask how many in the audience have at least one parent born outside the UK. Generally speaking, the younger the audience, the higher the percentage."

Comments

[Sandy Jamieson]

Our cat was born in the Oven, dies that make it a cake?

[Goldie]

I don't.

If all current inhabitants of Britain move to France, and all current inhabitants of France move to Britain, does it mean that the French language, culture, social and religious mores have become thereby British (and vice-versa).

it's absurd to think like this, even thought it's obviously the dogma of our time.

[David]

Good for him. Is the Daily Mail going through another "Hurrah for the Blackshirts" phase?

[Tony Makara]

I consider being British as actually wanting to belong to our family of nations rather than simply being a matter of being born here. There are people of British birth who owe their loyalty to other nations and to international groups. Being British means more than a certificate of birth. Its a question of loyalty, to our people over others.

[Iain]

"I regard anyone born in Britain as British, unless they choose to take another nationality. "

So the UK is the default nationality for anyone who happens to be born here regardless of parents nationality or circumstances. No wonder people describe themsleves as anything but British these days as 'British' is a devalued nationality.

I've got a feeling we are going to see a lot of pregnent women arrive from poor countries if the Conservative get into office and the silly Damien Green remains in post.

[Jack Stone]

If you are born here your British full stop. Damian Green is totally right.

[alan ryder]

My brother in law is a black Jamaican who came to the UK as a child. He holds a British passport, he represented London schools in athletics, works damned hard in the City and is more British than most. Britishness is measured by state of mind and actions. Damian Green is absolutely correct.

[Allan Littlemore]

England cricket captains have included Gubby Allen, Australia; Freddie Brown, Peru; Colin Cowdrey, India; Ted Dexter, Italy; Tony Grieg, South Africa, Allan Lamb, South Africa and Kevin Pietersen, South Africa. All foreigners?

[bill]

I wonder what his take is on people who view themselves for example, English, Scottish or Welsh instead of British?

[Iain]

alan ryder , your little homily has nothing to do with the case being discussed. If the situation remains that nationality is given to anyone born here, then we are going to get inundated with pregnant women from poor counties, giving birth to their children, then claiming right of residency on the basis their child is British. Its bloody madness, and if our idiots in Parliament can't see that then I despair.

[snegchui]

I think you will find the Home Office disagrees. Look at acts of somewhere around 1981-2. Children born here before 1981 are whatever nationality of mother, those after can get tricky.

[Jon Gale]

Being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse.

[David]

"British' is a devalued nationality."

How?

[David]

"Being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse."

I think you'll find nationality isn't the same thing as species.

[Iain]

"How?"

Its a nationality for any old garbage that washes up here, and a nationality that represents no value or culture.

[David]

Foreign people are garbage?

[Jon Gale]

David,

If you want to be pedantic we'll try the dictionary:

Nation n.
1. society united under one government in a State; considerable group of people having common descent or history.
2. (in medieval universities) Body of students from particular country or district.

Nationality is about ancestry and culture, not where you are born. Maybe you should ask a Cherokee whether the white settlers in their ancestral lands are now Cherokees.
For once the Daily Mail is right.

[Jon Gale]

And unless we want to go the way of the Cherokee I suggest we stop letting immigrants come into our country.

[David]

Oh right. We'll get rid of those Germans occupying the throne then.

[David_at_Home]

As we can see from the War of Jenkins’ Ear, to be “British” has always been a matter of cultural identity and legal nationality rather than determined by race alone.

To be properly British you have also to regard yourself as British.

In my experience, children born in the UK to a British father and a foreign mother nearly always regard themselves as British; this is natural because most foreign brides coming to the UK soon become fully integrated. When the husband is foreign and the wife is British, even if living in the UK, the children may be less sure; when both parents are foreign then the offspring may not regard themselves as British. However the immigrants from some colonies (e.g. West Indians, Gibraltarians, East African Asians) regard themselves as British as do many Ghurkhas. This feels right to me.

[Janet]

The privilege of being british is given away far too freely. It should also be able to be clawed back, as America does, if we discover that a naturalised British person is found to be an undesirable immigrant either early in their Britishness or even 20 years or more later.

[Andrew Boff]

Jon -

Nazi n
a member of the National Socialist party; person belonging to similar organisation or holding similar views on racial superiority etc.

[bill]

Save for the geographical sense, Britain/ Britishness has far less relevance and meaning than in former times. Clearly our membership of the EU has played a big part in this process. England with its preponderance will be/is being similarly undermined by the active promotion of "regionalism" in England.

[Jon Gale]

Andrew Boff,

Godwins Law - As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. Once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

[Sally Roberts]

Sandy Jamieson and Jon Gale, those have to take the biscuit as two of the stupidest posts of all time!

I agree with Damian Green. If someone is born here then they are British. End of story.

[Martin Wright]

Damien Green's comments are just wrong.As shadow immigration minister he ought to know better!

Under British nationality law, birth in the UK only confers British citizenship if at least one parent holds British nationality or failing that, one parent is at least regarded as legally settled here (e.g has permanent leave to reside here). So a child born to two illegal immigrants would not be entitled to British citizenship. How the Home Office deals with such "stranded" cases in practice is another matter.

Originally citizenship was based on blood (ius sanguinis)- who you were descended from. The classic contrast in the 19th century was between the French republican adoption of citizenship based on place of birth (ius soli) and the traditional German retention of ius sanguinis. Many countries still retain the ius sanguinis ( including major population centres in the third world) while others, such as Britain, have a mixture of the two.

I think the present law is fairly reasonable. Clearly some one born in Britain of at least one British parent should be regarded as British. But some one whose parents are not British who happens to be born here should not automatically get British citizenship. Of course many people in this category don't want it - children of say French or Polish citizens born here tend to be registered for their ancestral nationality.

What is rather galling is the idea that some one should be able come here just to get a birth certificate for their new baby, but have no obligations to learn the language, to integrate, and to show loyalty to Queen and country. As I said that isn't the legal position anyway, but it is alarming that people are so soft headed as to think that such a process would be reasonable and would not be an invitation to abuse.

[Andrew Boff]

Well I'll just carry on losing arguments then....lest we forget.

[Martin Wright]

Sally Roberts

I wish I had typed my contribtion a bit quicker! I guess you do not object to be called liberal, but isn't quite as simple as you seem to suggest. I suspect Damien Green just wanted to appear really relaxed and right on.

The bulk of our citizenship law stems from the British Nationality Act 1981 and I don't need to remind you who was in power then.

[houndtang]

By that definition Ted Dexter is an Italian and Cliff Richard an Indian. I know plenty of Irish people who were born in England who would be downright offended to be called British.

[Sceptic]

If somebody is brought up in this country by parents who speak little English, educated in a school where almost all the pupils are of a faith that has almost no established link with national life, then goes on to live a life with others from a similar national and religious background almost hermetically sealed off from mainstream society, it seems naive at best to describe such a person as British.

[Simon Beresford]

"Under British nationality law, birth in the UK only confers British citizenship if at least one parent holds British nationality or failing that, one parent is at least regarded as legally settled here (e.g has permanent leave to reside here). So a child born to two illegal immigrants would not be entitled to British citizenship."

That sounds about right to me.

The sentiment of Damian Green's comments is also correct though - in other words that we do not discriminate based on cultural heritage, the color of your skin or your family background how British someone is.

I would also argue that someone who wants to come into our great nation and make a life and a future for themselves and their family through hard work and the opportunities provided by a free country should not be vilified for wishing to do so.

I'm proud to be British and I'm proud to live in a diverse and pluralistic society. I see no division between the two.

[Bill]

What a slur on the British people, my ancestors didn't fight in 2 world wars to give the country away to any Tom, Dick or Harry that happens to be born here.

[Will]

Look, the goal is assimilation. Britishness was once a matter of blood quantum. Today, it's a political act. This is good, because it makes it incumbent on immigrants to accept certain groundrules of society and encourages them adopt the values they represent as their own. With this view, you get people like Danny Finkelstein. His parents pay have stood out from the crowd, but he's as British as bad customer service, rainy bank holiday weekends, and strikes at the end of a Labour government.

If you view Britishness as something you are born with, and divorce it from a set of values, you get the sort of people that vote for George Galloway.

[Tony]

COMMENT OVERWRITTEN.

[Charles Tannock MEP]

Martin Wright is absolutely correct and the "ius solis" concept was swept away in 1981 in the BNA after there were indeed abuses of heavily pregnant women in the 60s and 70s coming to Britain on tourist visas to avail themselves of the NHS obstetric services and claim a future UK passport for their offspring. This tightening was brought home to me when my children were born to my foreign (EU)nationality wife I had to prove to the passport office I was married to the mother and was myself a British citizen, as otherwise even children born to EU citizens resident in the UK do not get British citizenship at birth. After 1981 wives of UK citizens no longer acquire Uk nationality on marriage either. Indeed I have constituents from EU countries who have given birth to children in the UK where they are permanently resident but as they are not legally married to the fathers who are British the kids can only get the nationality of the mother. Provisions under the 1981 BNA allow for children born in the UK irrespective of the settled status or nationality of the parents to register for British citizenship if they have lived continuosly in the UK for the first ten years of their lives at the discretion of the Home Secretary. (Its amazing the things one learns after 10 years of being an MEP!) More controversially now is that lawyers are now talking about the inherent rights of British "residents" of having some legal call on the British state as we have seen with the recent Ethiopian national returned from Guantanamo who because of his residence as a refugee appears to have acquired some right to becoming a UK responsibility. We also saw this with a Bangladeshi woman, working as a doctor in the UK, in a forced marriage situation in her native Bangladesh appealed to the courts in the UK and the British High Commission in Dhaka afforded her protection in Bangladesh during her court case even though she had Bangladeshi nationality. It appears the concept of nationality and consular responsibility only to your own nationals abroad is somehow changing in international law.

[David]

"my ancestors didn't fight in 2 world wars to give the country away to any Tom, Dick or Harry that happens to be born here."

They certainly did for the second one. I suggest you look up the ideology of those they were fighting against. Please don't dishonour your ancestors.

[Tony]

COMMENT OVERWRITTEN.

[Steve Tierney]

For probably the first time ever I (mostly) agree with Jack Stone. If you are born in Britain, you are British. With one caveat... your parents have to have been granted British passports. Otherwise, a tourist who gives birth on a 2-week holiday would have a British child.

[Jo]

They both neglected to declaring their interests by adding they are both ethnic minority Jewish. Such actors are called 'Shills' I believe.

[dcj]

Oh dear. re Godwins Law - it's the existence of people such as BNP Tony @21:49 which makes the reminder of just how dreadful the totalitarian ideologies of Left and Right really are. Sometimes (with the lack of real History in our schools) it is necessary to draw attention to how wonderful some people in the 1930s thought the policies of Hitler and Stalin to be and just where that wonder led us. (Pity the BBC have never quite picked up on the evils of COmmunism) And the tremendous evil which was wrought by Hitler (and his cousin Josef) means that there are so many important lessons to be learnt. We aren't playing a variation of Mornington Crescent.

Secondly, for once in my life I agree with Jack Stone. A child born in Britain of legal residents is British. Full stop. And regarding the racial purity sketch - an awful lot of Legio II Augusta legionaries came from Africa, including their general (and later Emperor) Vespasian. So there would have been a lot of "non-white" blood circulating in the British Isles between 43 AD and c 410 AD. So where does that leave us?

[Stephanie]

If a dog is born in a stable, does that make it a horse?

[dcj]

But if a dog is born in a British stable, it's a British dog.

[Tony]

Only if it originated in Britain. If it's an Afghan Hound, then no it isn't.

[Super Blue]

dcj,

Please don't forget that, if it is an Alsatian, it is not a German but a FRENCH Shepherd (Alsace-Lorraine having been restored to France from 1870 except during the World Wars)!

[Hugh Oxford]

Damian Green: "I regard anyone born in Britain as British"

Does that mean that he considers Joanna Lumley to be Pakistani?

To those who defend this idiotic statemen, a simple question: a woman with no links to this country comes here to avail herself of our fabled International Health Service, drops the sprog... it's British, right?

[Martin Wright]

Simon Beresford @21.18

"The sentiment of Damian Green's comments is also correct though - in other words that we do not discriminate based on cultural heritage, the color of your skin or your family background how British someone is."

You're trying to set up a straw man. No one is suggesting discrimination based on race in deciding nationality. But the law does discriminate on the basis of at least one parent needing either to have British citizenship or having Home Office approved status as legally settled here. That does mean that some people who are born here do not qualify as being British.

So saying that "every one born in Britain is British" is plain wrong. It's not the legal position and Charles Tannock MEP has given examples of the sort of abuse that used to take place before 1981.

As I pointed out, plenty non-nationals don't want any children born here to have British citizenship, they want them to have their own nationality.

[Jill, London]

Hello Super Blue!

Sorry, but you’ve got the details of Alsace-Lorraine a bit confused.

Alsace-Lorraine was part of the Prussian spoils after the French lost the Franco-Prussian War in 1871 [having started that war!] – and that same year the unification of Germany created the German Empire. Alsace-Lorraine only reverted to France as part of the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. I don’t think temporary occupation by the Nazis from 1940-45 counts.

BTW – Alsatians/German Shepherds were first bred at the end of the 19th century in Germany so they wouldn’t have been French Shepherds.

[Sally Roberts]

Apart from Charles Tannock's very helpful clarification, this really is a dreadful thread!

[Onnalee]

My sister was born in Lagos, Nigeria in 1968. My Father was born in Borneo and my Grandfather was born in Ireland. My sister was refused a British passport. The Nigerians refused to give her a Nigerian passport saying......."How can she be Nigerian, she is not black?"

What nationality is my sister?

[Martin Wright]

Super Blue re Alsace

It depends on your perspective and if you swallow the French version of history! Alsace was part of the German world until the French annexed it gradually from 1644 onwards.Simon Weil admitted that the annexation of Strassburg(as then was)was France's own Munich! It's not often that you get a French politician admitting that France ever did anything wrong.

The transfer back to Germany in 1870 wasn't so evil as some might think. In fact it was a restoration of the status quo ante.

But we are way off topic.

[Martin Wright]

Sally Roberts

Charles Tannock was confirming my explanation. So why am I excluded from your approval?

[Sally Roberts]

Sorry Martin! At least you were not discussing horses or Alsatian dogs!!

[pp]

This story, yet again, shows tory front benchers shooting from the lip.

The mistakes they are making seem to show that they are parroting (what they think are) party lines, with no understanding of the context.

I am hugely disapointed.

However much I dislike Ken Clarke and think he should go, at least he has sincerity.

Ken's sincerity means that I know I don't like him - but one by one the front bench are showing such insincerity, that I can't say whether I like them or not because I can't beleive what they say is what they really beleive.

I believe anyone can be british - they just need to fit in with us and renounce all other loyalties - simple. Where they were born, their race, their parentage etc are completely irrelvant.

Whether being 'british' in this sense (the true sense) carries any rights of residency etc is irrelevant. And clearly, rights of residency mean nothing regarding 'britishness'.

[Mr Angry]

Being born in Britain is 50% of being British. The other 50% is about adopting the beliefs, morals and way of doing things that are accepted by the vast majority of people who live here as the way things should be done.

On that basis just about all the ethnic groups in Britain are British, and rightly so. However there is still a big question mark over some parts of our Islamic communities, especially those from South Asia, since they seem less willing than others to adopt the second 50% of the equation.

[subrosa]

I am Scottish. I've never referred to myself as British, never been called British although I have been called English. Most politely I correct this and emphasise I'm Scottish and that's my nationality.

[Martin Wright]

Sally That's OK - though I'm afraid I too strayed on to Alsatians.

You may not have liked some comments but they are a reflection of people's distrust of Labour on immigration. It is far batter to have clear firm rules on this as on other topics. If people know rules will be applied fairly but firmly, then there is less risk of racial tensions being stirred up. The opposite feeling of: "Labour will let any one in-even convicted murderers" does nothing to engender public confidence and racial harmony.

[steve foley]

I am 55, I was born in Glasgow, have Irish ancestry on both sides of the religious divide in that island. I have lived all of my adult life in England, what am I? I'M BRITISH! And proud of it I may add!

[Saxon Warrior]

Hmmm, the majority of Australians or Canadians are more British the most of the inhabitants of for instance Bradford or Burnley.

Just because someone lives here it does not mean they are living here as a Brit. Their ethnicity is the barrier.

Its a barrier that can be overcome. Take a look at those who came here courtesy of Windrush. They tried to integrade and it worked, take a look at Lenny Henry a second generation from Windrush and you will say he's British. The problem is Muslims will not try to integrate the whole ethos of their way of life prevents them. So they will never be British.

[RichardJ]

If a Chinese couple come here on holiday and give birth while here and intend to return to China is their child still British?

If I had a wife who gave birth in China I would still consider the children to be British rather than Chinese.

[Biodun]

My sister was born in Lagos, Nigeria in 1968. My Father was born in Borneo and my Grandfather was born in Ireland. My sister was refused a British passport. The Nigerians refused to give her a Nigerian passport saying......."How can she be Nigerian, she is not black?"

What nationality is my sister?

Posted by: Onnalee | February 26, 2009 at 23:26

ha! ha!
Funniest comment I've read all day and also a big fat lie.

Anyone who's ever tried to get a Nigerian passport knows that all you have to do is pay for it and tip the clerk at the passport office. They certainly don't ask too many questions because they don't give a damn as long as you've got your cash!!

I can appreciate that you want to make a point, Onnalee but if you have to fabricate stories to prove your point ..... well... nuff said.

[RichardJ]

"This week immigration figures revealed that one in nine people living in Britain was born overseas, highlighting a significant change in population make-up under Labour."

from the Telegraph. Presumably 1/9 of the population are not British according to Mr Green's logic?

[Simon Beresford]

martin wright @ 2315

"You're trying to set up a straw man."

When taken in the context of the first part of my post I wasn't...and we actually agree.

I'm not advocating that someone can show up, give birth, and claim citizenship for the child, hence why the current legal framework sounds about right to me (even if enforcement leaves a lot to be desired at points).

[Yet Another Anon]

Cliff Richard an Indian
I think Cliff Richard and Joanna Lumley both have dual nationality having been born in India but of British parents.

[Francis]

To me the comment by Damian Green seems fatuous. Better to have said nothing at all.

Its stating the absolute obvious to point out the Daily Mail is being is beign distorted - they arent actually saying those descended from immigrants arent British but are talking about statistics. No one has come up with a different term fro those whose ancestors lived here befroe the Marxist started trying to destroy us by pushing mass economic immigration. Luckily fro the multiculturalists who otherwise couldnt kick up this sort of nonsense.

Daniel Finkelstein refers to the Fabians - thats where this comes from. Doesnt it make some people ponder that they are agreeing with Jack Stone?

The bottom line is smear the Daily Mail, smear anyone who cares about demographic change.

Racists dont you know. Underlying this is cultural marxism. Shame on those who do the Marxists dirty work.

Whose interest is it in to gag the Mail?

All these issues are immensely complicated.
Well that the house that marxism has built.

[David]

"they fought for White British people."

Really? What about all the non-whites that fought in the British forces? What about the non-Britons who joined up?

"Vote BNP."

You think your ancestors who fought against fascism will be pleased you are advocating to vote for fascists?

[Jack Stone]

Some of these comments are clearly racist.At the end of the day what race, nationality or religion you are is not important.We should judge people on there content of there character nothing else.Everyone who lives in this country should be judged equally regardless of the label that as been put on them.

[Joe]

I think it should be British, if one parent was born here or, have biological link to British parentage.

Otherwise, European.

I was born in Spain whilst me mum was on Holiday and I'm English.

or indigenous.

[Joe]

actually, I dont really care.

I live in lovely Melbourne. The UK is down the toilet. Cold weather, recession, crime, police state, overpriced fuel, cars, did i mention crime, the weather(except in spring time and up untill August bank holiday)

Good luck, those that are left, and welcome to those who want to come, Hackneys a bit dodgy and we drive on the right.

cheers, Joe

[Jack Stone]

Joe as most people on this site use the word European as a form of abuse I don`t think that would be an ideal label to give to people. Much better to just say that if you are born here and you want to call yourself British, and some would not want to I`m sure, than in law you have that right.

[Joe]

Well, alongs as its just British and not English, Scottish or Welsh.

Whats wrong with being labeled a european?

[Mikey]

A Brit born in China to Brit parents can never be "chinese". He/she is simply " a Brit born in China"
KISS

[Ross Warren]

"Apart from Charles Tannock's very helpful clarification, this really is a dreadful thread!"

Its a pretty horrid subject. I tend to agree that for the most part a person born in Britain should be considered British. As long as they are fully integrated into our society, attend our schools, speak our Language etc etc. I suppose what I am trying to say is that being British, is all about being a member of the British civil society, and has nothing to do with genetic factors such a skin colour.

Hardly rocket science is it?

"My sister was refused a British passport. The Nigerians refused to give her a Nigerian passport saying......."How can she be Nigerian, she is not black?"

What nationality is my sister?" Is this a real example? I believe that she is entitled to a Nigerian Passport.

[Paul Ridgewell]

It's a shame that a number of people here find it appropriate to re-hash Bernard Manning's "joke" about the horse and the stable...

[Edwin Greenwood]

@Biodun (27 Feb at 00:48)

I agree that the Nigerian state is deeply corrupt and that in practice a Venusian slime-mould could obtain a Nigerian passport if an adequate bung was paid.

That doesn't invalidate Onnalee's point, however. The sister was refused a passport for not being Black. In other words, the Nigerians adopt an ethnocentric, jus sanguinis approach to nationality. Which is a damned sight more rational than a lot of the "oh dear if we don't let everybody in we're on the slippery slope to setting up gas chambers for darkies" tripe that's being posted here.

[ChrisJRead]

I think the system can be simplified immesurably with a couple of helpful rules.

If you are born in Britain, to parents of any nationality, and choose to live, be educated and work here, then you are British.

If you think you are clever for parroting the 'is a dog born in a stable..' phrase, and think there is any kind of logical equivalency in it, you get hit with a frying pan and have 'ridiculous moron' tatooed on your head.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Hugh Oxford | February 26, 2009 at 23:12

To those who defend this idiotic statemen, a simple question: a woman with no links to this country comes here to avail herself of our fabled International Health Service, drops the sprog... it's British, right?

Do you share the view our your Leader that non-whites should be repatriated, and that mixed race marriage should be illegal?

[Edwin Greenwood]

Paul Ridgewell: It's a shame that a number of people here find it appropriate to re-hash Bernard Manning's "joke" about the horse and the stable.

This saying considerably predates the late Mr Manning. It is commonly (possibly incorrectly) attributed to the 1st Duke of Wellington but may well simply be an anonymous proverb whose origins are lost.

Whatever, the proverb neatly encapsulates one perfectly arguable viewpoint in the current discussion. Why do you find it objectionable?

[Jack Stone]

The Editor overwrites comments on another thread that are basically homophobic which was right but doesn`t overwrite comments like all foreigners are garbage that are clearly racist.
Its about time that he did because he does the reputation of this site and the Conservative party no good by continuing to allow racist comments on this site.

[Onnalee]

@Biodun | February 27, 2009 at 00:48

Why sir, I do not fabricate stories and I do not lie.

Fyi, my father stood in a passport queue for 3 hours in Nigeria and did indeed put a $10 bill in the passport. The Passport clerk took the $10 bill and then refused to issue her with a passport saying "How can she be Nigerian, she is not black?"

A true story.

[Dan Beckham]

That's because Jack, the Editor is a gay white man.

[Allan McKinley]

God there's a lot of bigots around. Since stables were generally warmer than most other outbuildings, it was normal for working dogs to give birth there (kennels would be too crowded, and dangerous for newborn puppies) - which might explain the rather strange rhetorical question, but hardly helps the case of those citing it. The point is clearly that the stable does not define the species of the animal giving birth therein, not that there is an appropriate place for dogs and another for horses.

More to the point, if those complaining about an inclusive British are British, then I am not - because I cannot accept their definition of British. Despite the fact that every ancestor I have for eight generations (where traced) has been from these islands. These islands, which have always welcomed and absorbed outsiders (well - if you can welcome conquering armies of Romans and Normans...), which have always taken from other cultures what they find best, and which has been for a long time a crucible of understanding and democracy. I tend to find that is what I think of as British, not some strange idea of skin colour or where parents are from.

But what good is rationale and history in the face of ignorance?

[Tim Montgomerie]

You are half right about me Dan.

[Casino Royale]

The first thing Damien Green must do is try to reframe the way this debate always polarises into:

(a) Kick them all out (counter-argument: you're a racist/nazi/facist.. blah blah blah)
(b) Let them all in (counter-argument: undermining the nation/traitor/naive idiot/pc nutcase etc.)

It always seems to boil down to race, doesn't it?

In my opinion anyone who invokes the "r" word on either side should automatically lose. It is pathetically childish.

The truth is far more nuanced:

A certain level of immigration is inevitable (indeed, desirable) because of the benefits to the job markets/economy and diversity of services and culture they can offer, however, there *is* a limit to this and too much can overcrowd areas, wreck community cohesion, undermine national identity and create massive resentment.

The question is how it should be controlled and what level it should be controlled at.

Those who advocate no control or full (ie. zero control) are both wrong.

Deal with it.

I imagine our "proposed" level of 50,000 net per year (0.5

Another big issue is how we integrate those who will arrive anyway. This is, I believe, where we need to "get over" our hatred and misplaced guilt over our identity and history and teach people that Britain is a beautiful country - achieved phenomenal things for mankind - and one to be extremely proud of.

[Edward Huxley]

Sorry, but I can`t wade through Mr. Tannock`s long sentences.

Most people would say T. E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) was English. He was born in Wales: and Lloyd George Welsh. He was born in Manchester.

So being born in Britain does not make you British

[Malcolm Dunn]

A good post Casino Royale but there's a bit missing.
If you don't like this site Jack don't post on it. I doubt your sloganising posts will be much missed.

[Iain]

Casino Royale I have suggested many a time that the Conservatives should frame the debate in the terms of population sustainability, this side tracks the mine field of race etc, and would throw the spot light back on the inconsistency of Labour and the Libdem policies who pursue mass immigration policies whist wittering on about sustainability, environmental and green issues.

This isn't such and extreme idea anymore as the likes of Nicholas Soames in the cross party group are beginning to talk about population sustainability, what is missing is the Party leadership waking up to the issue, and the benefits such a policy would offer the Conservatives, for not only would it allow the Conservatives to neuter the usual racist charge , it would also link with Cameron's green message, as well as making an obvious narrative on housing, road space, energy, food etc.

[Liz Upton]

So according to several commenters here, I'm not *properly* British, but probably Chinese. Or a cake. Or a horse.

I don't speak a word of Chinese. And my whinnying's not up to much either. I *do* hope that being married to a nice, clean white person means I can get permission to stay here, because the whole language barrier thing means I'd be stuffed if I was to be sent back where I my parents came from.

[Liz Upton]

(And I note that the html del tag doesn't work in the comments here either, making me look illiterate as well as equine. Great.)

[Casino Royale]

12:32 Malcolm

Yeah. Dunno what happened there! Prob tried to post too quick..

Basically, I was going to say I think 50,000 (0.5

I do believe the current level is unsustainable. The 80s/90s average is now prob a bit low because of increased globalisation, but I'd like it around that level if possible.

People should realise why 50,000 is ok. That is around 4,000 a month dispersed throughout the UK. I'd imagine London & SE would get 2,500 a month - which is probably ok as it would only come down to a few dozen per major town.

It's all about numbers.

[Alex Swanson]

continuing to allow racist comments on this site

Nobody's making any racist comments. The problem is that you personally are obsessed with racism and accuse anybody who disagrees with you on just about anything of it regardless of whatever they actually said.

[Casino Royale]

( 0.5 is less than X which is less than 1% of overall population ) !!

It's the mathematical equation which seems to upset it!

[Francis]

Casino Royale: "A certain level of immigration is inevitable (indeed, desirable) because of the benefits to the job markets/economy and diversity of services and culture"

Any evidence for this?

I have yet to hear a satisfactory argument that immigration is either necessary or desirable (except for the immigrants).

Some arguments:
http://socialaffairsunit.org.uk/digipub/content/view/18/27/1/0/
http://www.multiculturalbunk.com
http://www.guardiancockups.com/

[Iain]

Liz Upton, well if you were born in China then according to Damien Green you are Chinese.

[Francis]

Am amused by the lefties - dont they know that crying racism is the last refuge of the Marxist scoundrel? They are also confirming the prejudice that people are left wing because they are stupid.

[David T Breaker]

I am happy with the current situation where you are a British Citizen if either of your parents is, or were born here to people with the right to be here. I am guessing that this is what Damian Green also supports, as his comment was in response to the Mail's statement, which seemed to imply the UK born children of legal immigrants were still 'foreign'. Such people Include Brunel and Churchill.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Francis | February 27, 2009 at 13:15

Am amused by the lefties - dont they know that crying racism is the last refuge of the Marxist scoundrel?

Only if they are wrong.

They are also confirming the prejudice that people are left wing because they are stupid.

Prejudice is the word.

[Alex Swanson]

Am amused by the lefties - dont they know that crying racism is the last refuge of the Marxist scoundrel?

Only if they are wrong.

Which 99.9% of the time they are (and only right in the other 0.1% by coincidence).

They are also confirming the prejudice that people are left wing because they are stupid.

Prejudice is the word.

Left-wing people routinely accuse those who disagree of being "selfish", "greedy", even "evil". I don't think that you're really in a position to complain about abuse being returned in your direction.

Having said that, fair's fair; not every left-wing person is stupid. Stalin and Mao weren't. Bloody murdering tyrants, yes. But not stupid. Fidel Castro has survived decades without having to yield power to any democratically elected opponent, got to be fairly bright to manage that. Tony Blair might well have led this country to war on the basis of falsehoods, but he's not stupid. Lord Peter Mandelson might have had to resign from the Cabinet in disgrace twice, but he's not stupid. John Prescott might give the impression of being a bit of a rough diamond, but I bet his bank manager doesn't think he's stupid either.

No, you're absolutely correct. Stupidity is absolutely not a criterion for being left-wing.

[ChrisJRead]

I do find it tiring when people invoke racism at any available opportunity, and think it's childish and devalues the term.

Not to make a political point in any way, but I'm amused by Francis talking about 'Marxist scoundrels'. I'm imagining him as a retired Colonel with a big bushy white handlebar mustache enjoying a whisky-soda at an Other Club dinner.

[Malcolm Stevas]

Alan Ryder writes, "Britishness is measured by state of mind and actions. Damian Green is absolutely correct."
These sentences are contradictory, since Green (who he? Ed) merely repeated the same facile, infinitely vacuous platitude uttered by an infinite number of soggy-meliorist political careerists - and not what you suggest, which is nearer the mark.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Alex Swanson | February 27, 2009 at 14:47

Which particular "left-wing" accusation of racism on this thread was unreasonable? Most of the criticisms have come from Tories.

Using monstrous dictators to critique those of us on the left middle ground is pretty cheap; it would be like saying "the only clever right winger was Hitler."

I'm not complaining about abuse, just undermining a puerile generalisation which gets the debate nowhere.

To restate your argument. "I, Alex Swanson don't agree with them, therefore they are stupid. Where they aren't stupid they are evil."

Also, if you think that 999/1000 accusations of racism are unfounded, have you consider that it might be you who is blind to it, rather than everbody else being stupid?

I don't think all right-wingers are stupid. I just happen to disagree with their politics. However, I do know at least one who fits the bill. You know who you are.