After Israeli ground troops entered Gaza yesterday evening to continue the operation to eliminate Hamas' rocket bases, Shadow Foreign minister, David Lidington MP, issued this statement - renewing William Hague's earlier call for a ceasefire:
"This is a serious development that is bound to lead to yet more loss of life. We support international calls for an immediate ceasefire by both sides. The rocket attacks by Hamas on Israeli cities are acts of terrorism and must cease if there is to be a chance of restoring peace. But only a political agreement and a sustainable ceasefire, possibly backed up by international supervision, will bring about a permanent end to those rocket attacks. Gaza's one and a half million civilian population is caught between the warring forces and is paying an appalling price in blood, hunger, misery and fear. Whatever the result of today's military action, Israel and Gaza will still be neighbours. The longer the bloodshed continues, the more difficult it will be to overcome intransigence and extremism."
Writing for The Sunday Telegraph, Sir Malcolm Rifkind offers a more sympathetic account of Israel's actions:
"The Israeli attacks on Hamas are not unreasonable, regardless of electoral considerations. Imagine missiles being fired, most days, across the 21 miles of the English Channel and landing in the towns and villages of Kent. Imagine if, for several years, the IRA had been allowed to fire missiles into the villages of Northern Ireland from the Irish Republic with the consent and approval of the Irish government. Of course, it is controversial to make such comparisons, as Israel's conflict in Gaza has a very different historic background. But every government has a first duty to protect its citizens. Israel evacuated Gaza in 2005, removing not only its soldiers but all Israeli settlements, despite bitter resistance from the settlers and their political allies. If Hamas, with total power in Gaza, had been willing to concentrate its energies on the economic development of the region and cease cross-border attacks, the Israeli government and public would have been much more willing to make a similar withdrawal from the West Bank where the majority of Palestinians live."
> Read Martin Parsons' CentreRight post on why Hamas CANNOT be treated as an equal of Israel
Why is David Lidington convinced that Hamas will ever want a deal?
The Israelis are not dealing with normal people here. The clearly stated objectives of Hamas pretty much write off negotiating with the 'apes'.
They will never stop firing rockets until their arsenal is destroyed.
Posted by: Neil Wilson | January 04, 2009 at 10:42
Israel and Hamas don't care what David Liddington and Malcolm Rifkind think.
Hamas is using civilians as human shields to aid its propaganda war with Israel. Hamas WANT Israel to keep on bombing because they can use the pictures of dead Palestinian children on the news to swing liberal Western opinion behind them.
Why, then are Israel giving Hamas what they want?
Posted by: Cleethorpes Rock | January 04, 2009 at 10:46
Why is David Liddington acting as our spokesman?
Is David Cameron too frit too stand up against Israel?
Is William Hague too busy with outside interests to authorise a press statement?
I think we should be told.
Posted by: Umbrella man | January 04, 2009 at 10:49
Umbrella Man, it doesn't make a difference who "takes a stand" because it won't make a jot of difference.
Cameron and Hague need to get on the news and repeat "Gordon's economic plan hasn't worked. We told you so. Here's what we'd do.." 1000 times, rather than grandstanding on an issue they have no influence over.
Posted by: Cleethorpes Rock | January 04, 2009 at 11:23
Israel should keep up the pressure until their objectives (destruction of the Hamas arsenals and elimination of their anti democraticic leadership) have been achieved.
Hamas revel in death, destruction and misery and will settle for nothing less than the total destruction of the state of Israel.
Let's leave the pious hand wringing liberalism to those who have mastered the art and face the facts.
They've been mortal enemies for thousands of years, no mealy mouthed soundbites from extremely transient 21st century opposition politicians in the UK is going to alter the outcome one jot.
Another humiliating and premature retreat as occured from Lebanon a few years ago would represent a disasterous defeat with the Qassams still inward bound.
Posted by: Anonymous by Necessity | January 04, 2009 at 11:30
This is disgusting - a defeatist response to the Tehran-inspired "demonstrations" of yesterday and Channel 4's ten minutes of Anti-Semitic vitriol on Christmas Day.
Posted by: Super Blue | January 04, 2009 at 11:38
The Truth About Those Hamas Rockets
Saturday, 03 January 2009
Five years ago, the Bush administration lied about weapons of mass destruction to dupe us into supporting an illegal, immoral invasion of Iraq.
A few days ago, Israel trotted out only an infinitesimally more credible excuse -- the Hamas rockets case -- as justification for its own murderous shock and awe in Gaza, a long-planned campaign perniciously aimed at ousting a “regime” that came to power via popular, democratic vote.
Yes, such rockets exist, but they’re little more than slingshots against Israel’s incredible military might, and they’re used out of desperation by Palestinians who’ve never been accorded the democratic space within which to gain redress of their eminently just grievances.
Israeli apologists have presented absurd propaganda about those devices.
We’ve been asked, for instance, what would we do if rockets were being launched on our homes in New York or Texas, from Canada or Mexico?
The proper answer is that, if those two nations had been unlawfully occupied or embargoed by the United States for 60 years of relentless oppression and repression, and if all attempts at peaceful change had been forcefully prevented or scuttled by the U.S., then such attacks would be an understandable, indeed a justifiable attempt at gaining intolerably deferred liberty.
Our appropriate response wouldn’t be to bomb the hell out of the nearest Canadian or Mexican city, but to collectively look into mirrors and earnestly ask ourselves, “What have we done wrong to incur their wrath?”
And then act to correct the situation.
Conscientious Israelis acknowledge that the Hamas rockets rationale is fraudulent. For instance, Jerusalem Post writer Larry Derfner has noted, “We don’t want to see how people in Gaza are living, we block it out of our minds -- which, I suppose, is natural for a society at war, but which also keeps that war going longer than it might if we would recognize that Gaza is getting so much the worst of it.
“The [Palestinian] Kassam [rockets] have terrorized the 25,000 people in Sderot and its environs, but have caused very, very few deaths or serious wounds. By contrast, Israel has terrorized 1.5 million Gazans, locked them inside their awfully narrow borders, throttled their economy, and killed and seriously wounded thousands of them . . .
“This is crazy. Israel is the superpower of the Middle East, but because we still think we’re the Jews of Europe in the 1930s, or the Israelites under Pharaoh, we spend a lot more time fighting our enemies than we might if we looked at the whole picture, not just our half of it . . .”
As Gazan hospitals and morgues fill beyond capacity because of an ongoing air assault that cruelly began at precisely the hour when countless children were heading home from school, we’re expected to believe that small craters mostly in empty Israeli fields constitute this terrible episode’s chief sin.
Bugs bothered by sporadically impacting, glorified fireworks cobbled together in backyard garages are ludicrously supposed to be the primary problem, not human limbs and lives shattered by the most destructive weapons that military science can produce!
At any point during the past six decades, Israel could have had peace, simply by assenting to the great moral imperative of our time, namely the Palestinians’ right to their own, unitary, sovereign homeland.
Something which Israel continues to resist tooth and nail.
Two years ago, in Southern Lebanon, Israel engaged in similar bombings in civilian areas. Then, too, it maintained that only “terrorist” targets were being hit. As impartial observers finally ascertained the truth, clear evidence of enormous civilian carnage surfaced.
The Israeli leadership lied then, and it’s lying now.
There’s a veritable holocaust occurring in densely packed Gaza. Think Guernica, or the Warsaw Ghetto, with all the searing irony that comparison involves.
Apart from being an ethical travesty offending all decent hearts, it’s an unpardonable outrage to especially Arab/Islamic peoples around the world.
Witness the angry demonstrations in cities across the planet.
It takes no extraordinary analytical prowess to appreciate that, when the White House ridiculously blames what’s currently happening on “thugs” in Gaza, and when moderate Arab states adopt an accommodationist position pleasing the U.S. and Israel, a profound Arab/Islamic radicalization billows and swells.
New Osama bin Ladens are being born as innocents in Gaza are getting ripped to death by American-made Hellfire missiles, dispatched toward fleshly targets by Israeli pilots.
In fact, the almost certain, counterproductive outcome of Israel’s action makes us necessarily suspect that secret motives mistakenly judged by Tel Aviv to be worth the risk are actually at play.
Three possibilities spring immediately to mind:
1) Obscenely using de facto genocide to give the present Israeli government a “tough” image before upcoming national elections.
2) Roping Barack Obama into a harder pro-Israeli stance than Tel Aviv fears he’d otherwise take.
3) Creating a manipulated, intensely propagandized situation that would enable a desired Israeli attack on Iran.
Whatever the most deeply hidden reality, Israel’s gargantuan crime must be universally condemned in the strongest possible terms . . . and halted at once!
Posted by: sharab | January 04, 2009 at 11:52
Five years ago, the Bush administration lied about weapons of mass destruction to dupe us into supporting an illegal, immoral invasion of Iraq.
A few days ago, Israel trotted out only an infinitesimally more credible excuse -- the Hamas rockets case -- as justification for its own murderous shock and awe in Gaza, a long-planned campaign perniciously aimed at ousting a “regime” that came to power via popular, democratic vote.
Yes, such rockets exist, but they’re little more than slingshots against Israel’s incredible military might, and they’re used out of desperation by Palestinians who’ve never been accorded the democratic space within which to gain redress of their eminently just grievances.
Israeli apologists have presented absurd propaganda about those devices.
We’ve been asked, for instance, what would we do if rockets were being launched on our homes in New York or Texas, from Canada or Mexico?
The proper answer is that, if those two nations had been unlawfully occupied or embargoed by the United States for 60 years of relentless oppression and repression, and if all attempts at peaceful change had been forcefully prevented or scuttled by the U.S., then such attacks would be an understandable, indeed a justifiable attempt at gaining intolerably deferred liberty.
Our appropriate response wouldn’t be to bomb the hell out of the nearest Canadian or Mexican city, but to collectively look into mirrors and earnestly ask ourselves, “What have we done wrong to incur their wrath?”
And then act to correct the situation.
Conscientious Israelis acknowledge that the Hamas rockets rationale is fraudulent. For instance, Jerusalem Post writer Larry Derfner has noted, “We don’t want to see how people in Gaza are living, we block it out of our minds -- which, I suppose, is natural for a society at war, but which also keeps that war going longer than it might if we would recognize that Gaza is getting so much the worst of it.
“The [Palestinian] Kassam [rockets] have terrorized the 25,000 people in Sderot and its environs, but have caused very, very few deaths or serious wounds. By contrast, Israel has terrorized 1.5 million Gazans, locked them inside their awfully narrow borders, throttled their economy, and killed and seriously wounded thousands of them . . .
“This is crazy. Israel is the superpower of the Middle East, but because we still think we’re the Jews of Europe in the 1930s, or the Israelites under Pharaoh, we spend a lot more time fighting our enemies than we might if we looked at the whole picture, not just our half of it . . .”
As Gazan hospitals and morgues fill beyond capacity because of an ongoing air assault that cruelly began at precisely the hour when countless children were heading home from school, we’re expected to believe that small craters mostly in empty Israeli fields constitute this terrible episode’s chief sin.
Bugs bothered by sporadically impacting, glorified fireworks cobbled together in backyard garages are ludicrously supposed to be the primary problem, not human limbs and lives shattered by the most destructive weapons that military science can produce!
At any point during the past six decades, Israel could have had peace, simply by assenting to the great moral imperative of our time, namely the Palestinians’ right to their own, unitary, sovereign homeland.
Something which Israel continues to resist tooth and nail.
Two years ago, in Southern Lebanon, Israel engaged in similar bombings in civilian areas. Then, too, it maintained that only “terrorist” targets were being hit. As impartial observers finally ascertained the truth, clear evidence of enormous civilian carnage surfaced.
The Israeli leadership lied then, and it’s lying now.
There’s a veritable holocaust occurring in densely packed Gaza. Think Guernica, or the Warsaw Ghetto, with all the searing irony that comparison involves.
Apart from being an ethical travesty offending all decent hearts, it’s an unpardonable outrage to especially Arab/Islamic peoples around the world.
Witness the angry demonstrations in cities across the planet.
It takes no extraordinary analytical prowess to appreciate that, when the White House ridiculously blames what’s currently happening on “thugs” in Gaza, and when moderate Arab states adopt an accommodationist position pleasing the U.S. and Israel, a profound Arab/Islamic radicalization billows and swells.
New Osama bin Ladens are being born as innocents in Gaza are getting ripped to death by American-made Hellfire missiles, dispatched toward fleshly targets by Israeli pilots.
In fact, the almost certain, counterproductive outcome of Israel’s action makes us necessarily suspect that secret motives mistakenly judged by Tel Aviv to be worth the risk are actually at play.
Three possibilities spring immediately to mind:
1) Obscenely using de facto genocide to give the present Israeli government a “tough” image before upcoming national elections.
2) Roping Barack Obama into a harder pro-Israeli stance than Tel Aviv fears he’d otherwise take.
3) Creating a manipulated, intensely propagandized situation that would enable a desired Israeli attack on Iran.
Whatever the most deeply hidden reality, Israel’s gargantuan crime must be universally condemned in the strongest possible terms . . . and halted at once!
Posted by: sharab | January 04, 2009 at 11:57
I don't think Arab/Israeli squabbles are any of our business. Who does Lidington think he is? he may as well be complaining about the lunar tides. Frankly I think this news story is BORING. Actually its not even news, It'd be news if they'd stop fighting. Let them get on with it, that's what I say.
Posted by: JO | January 04, 2009 at 11:59
Well after a decade of Labour being able to place their anti-Semitic cronies throughout the country it's no surprise that there is a decidedly once sided view that tends to be shown by the media.
Posted by: YMT | January 04, 2009 at 12:39
Sharab-you surely must be aware (I hope) that all the Islamist organisations have as their aim the elimination of Israel. Two of the reasons for this are their detestation of Jews being in charge of anything and the idea that once a land becomes Muslim it must never be given up. These simple facts undermine your whole argument. HAMAS and Hizbollah want to destroy Israel.
These organisations state plainly (and many so-called'moderates' in private do so) that a Palestinian state would be a launch pad for even more effective attacks. You also totally understate the effect of rocket attacks on Israeli life and the threat of a vice between Hizbollah rockets in the north and HAMAS rockets in the south. Let us hope for the Palestinian people's sake that when they get a state relations are normalised.
As for 'occupation'-Egypt and Jordan 'occupied' Gaza and the West Bank pre-1967 but never allowed a Palestinian state. After 1948 there was, in effect, a population transfer. 750,000 Arabs left/were expelled friom Israel and 750,000 Jews left/were expelled from Arab countries. After WWII millions of Germans weere forced to leave the Sudetenland and Silesia. nobody suggests that they will ever be able to return.
Another truth Sharab should face is that Israel was acknowledged as a state by the United Nations. Immediately this happened, all the Arab states which bordered Israel (with 'volunteers' from other Arab countries) attacked Israel with the publicly declared aim of throwing the Jews into the sea. The leader of the Arab League declared, "this will be a massacre to rank with the Mongols." They lost-and with it the Palestinian people lost much more than the Arab states have ever done.
The Palestinian tragedy is that the people are in their terrible position because their leaders put them there. Until Arabs, and many non-Arab Muslims are able to accept Jews as equals and Israel as a normal state, we will still be having this sterile conversation.
Posted by: Frank | January 04, 2009 at 12:44
Have to agree with your sentiments JO, the Palestinians and Israelis have been fighting all my life, and as things go they will be still finding things to fight over long after I am dead. The big news would be if they stopped fighting, but that's pretty unlikely, as a result all the diplomatic effort invested in the area is a complete waste of resources. We would be better off investing our efforts where things can be changed. So all these earnest pronouncements by British politicians one must presume is only being done because they like to hear the sound of their own voices, for it sure as hell isn't going to have any effect. Perhaps, as engagement in the area has produced nothing but just more fighting, we should try ignoring them, let them squabble and fight to their hearts content , and when they find no one is bothered with their squabbles or taking an interest with them they might find better things to do.
Posted by: Iain | January 04, 2009 at 12:45
Sharab's piece is clearly just lifted wholesale (TWICE) from some publicatiuon. Ignore it just as wse should ignore the demos yesterday in Britain (The BBC in its usual way hyped them up way above the official estimates)
This man Liddington should hang his head in shame. Hamas are terrorists just as the bombers here in Spain and in the USA were terrorists. Iran is supplying these rockets (which must have got there with Egyptian connivance or corruption )
The Israelis are absolutely right in their action - we should back them.
NB I write as one who has opposed Israel from the start and was bombed by them in 1947!
Posted by: christina Speight | January 04, 2009 at 13:20
Hamas anti-democratic. They actually won an election and then the west turned round and said they wouldn`t recognise them. It seems your undemocratic if you disagree with the west and Israel.
The west needs to learn that you don`t just negotiate and recognise those you agree with.
Posted by: Jack Stone | January 04, 2009 at 13:37
Smash Hamas.
Then have a ceasefire.
Lidington and Hague are dissembling at best and extremely dangerous at worst.
These calls all fit in perfectly with Cameron's Libdemmery - the strategy of wooing floating LibDems in marginal seats.
And he wonders why people are not enthused by him?
Posted by: Geoff Middleton | January 04, 2009 at 14:14
Israel is a county founded by terrorists and created by acts of “ethnic cleansing” which have, in turn, begat further terrorists.
We in Britain should aim to contain the conflagration and encourage both sides to reach a long term settlement. Otherwise we should keep out and, above all, we should not regard Israel as our ally which was not, is not and never should be.
Posted by: David_at_Home | January 04, 2009 at 14:16
The Tory Party should be supporting the Israeli government to the hilt in their courageous stand agsinst terrorism, and not be pandering to the usual suspects who appear to have no principles, except one of continually pandering to the popular consensus.
This brave lead taken by Israel should be fully supported and hopefully it is the beginning of sorting our those terrorist states and their apologists once and for all.
Posted by: Richard Calhoun | January 04, 2009 at 14:43
Posted by: Jack Stone | January 04, 2009 at 13:37
Hamas won the democratic vote and the gaza electorate are now learning to their cost the result of giving a bunch of thugs a political mandate.
I am hopeful that the outcome of the Israrli action will be the beginning of the end for Hamas and the population will vote responsibly in the future
Posted by: Richard Calhoun | January 04, 2009 at 14:48
I also am disgusted with "conservative?" politicians telling Israel to leave Gaza alone, Hamas are a terrorist group and are behaving as such. They deserve what they are now to reap. In answer to a comment above a Peace Treaty was agreed only for the Palestinian rulers to reject it out of hand. Incidently, The terrorists will not only target Israel, they want you as well, you are an infidel to them. Think on that!
Posted by: Derek W. Buxton | January 04, 2009 at 15:35
Agreed Richard. Won't be voting for them if they don't.
Go Israel. Ignore any dispicable ant semitic sentiment. The Tories need to grow bigger balls and stand up for reason. Reason is Israel.
Posted by: alison | January 04, 2009 at 15:37
"The Tories need to grow bigger balls and stand up for reason. Reason is Israel."
Quite right Alison - but don't worry, plenty of Tories have perfectly good-sized "cojones" - even the girls!!! ;-)
Posted by: Sally Roberts | January 04, 2009 at 15:44
Hague and Liddington need their heads examined. When one has to lance a boil one must then remove the pus in order to ensure that there is not a re-infestation.
Egypt brokered a cease-fire six months ago, yet there were breaches by Hamas on a regualr basis. Isreal warned of the consequences, yet Hamas persisted in their folly. The IDF targeted the main sources of the attacks - not an easy task due to the cowardly way in which Hamas shelter behind women and children. So now the ground attack goes in. Israel vacated the Gaza Strip voluntarily in 2005, yet all that ensued was a mini civil war between Hamas and forces loyal to the PA that resulted eventually in the PA President being driven out to the West Bank. So what else did Hamas do in the interim apart from plotting and carrying out actions of mayhem and terrorism against civilians in Southern Israel (where the most vulnerable are the Bedouin due to the flimsy nature of their abodes that are a feature of their nomadic life-style)? Nothing, except to coerce the unfortunate people of Gaza to do their bidding and to dig tunnels through which to bring in ever more long-range Iranian-supplied missiles.
Perhaps if Teather, Livingstone, Sayle and all the other freedom-loving celebrities thought a little deeper, they may wonder that, while they rant and rave in Trafalgar Square, the people of the West Bank go about their daily lives in relative safety and with little agitation (more likely a silent hope that Israel finish the job of rooting out Hamas), people can pass freely between Israel and Jordan (to the considerable financial benefit of the latter), and even Channel 4's Alternative Queen has remained comparatively mute (apart from hanging one or two unfortunate young men who were accused of being homosexuals and locking up a blogger who had the temerity to question the behaviour of Hamas). Wonder, too, how the Egyptians must feel having gone to great lengths to broker a cease-fire six months ago only to see Hamas breach it on a monthly basis and declining to even consider an extension? One indication is that one can easily take a flight or travel by other means between the two neighbours, and it is rumoured that the Egyptians are as keen as anyone else to see the back of Hamas.
Well written, Sir Malcolm! told it as it is.
Posted by: Sam R | January 04, 2009 at 15:46
My God I never thought I would see the day the Tories were on the side of Hamas terrorists and Iran. We should be supporting Israel no matter what. It is about times Conservatives started acting like conservatives.
Mind you having said all that Hamas are more legitimate than Gordon Brown after all they've actually won an election!
Posted by: Laura, London | January 04, 2009 at 16:17
The Israelis have been conducting a precision air war. Hamas of course loves to store weapons and set up launch facilities in civilian areas. Sadly some civilians have been caught up in the exchange of fire and been killed. The rockets are still being fired. Hamas and their sponsors Iran want to obliterate Israel. There will be no peace unless Hamas stops firing rockets. The only option id for Israel to obliterate Hamas in Gaza. So calling for a ceasefire is crazy. Hamas will only break it as they always do, having been given time to regroup. they think we are soft, wringing our hands saying ceasefire, whist the EU idiots given them millions in aid, some of which pays for more rockets. The only ceasefire should happen when Israel crushes Hamas.
Posted by: Dr Nick Ashley | January 04, 2009 at 16:31
Troll-Stone will next be telling us about an election in Germany 1933 and how he thinks it justified all the consequences, perhaps? He does for Hamas, after all.
Posted by: Super Blue | January 04, 2009 at 16:32
Superglue.You don`t get the point do you. The thing is when you believe in democracy you have to accept the peoples verdict. Democracy isn`t about saying to the people you can vote but only if you vote the way we want you to.
Posted by: Jack Stone | January 04, 2009 at 17:11
First, to take on some of the idiots:
Geoff Middleton:Lidington and Hague are dissembling at best and extremely dangerous at worst.
I really don't appreciate members of the Shadow Front Bench being described as dangerous, and you would do well to think again about your comments. I saw nothing to disagree with in either Hague's or Liddington's statements. They did nothing to give succour to terrorists, and Liddington was right to say that the only lasting settlement in the region in the future would be a political one
Geoff Middleton: These calls all fit in perfectly with Cameron's Libdemmery - the strategy of wooing floating LibDems in marginal seats.
The only person bringing domestic political calculation in to an international crisis that is costing lives is you - and you shuld be ashamed of yourself for it. I can only presume that this is a result of your own wish to see some more "right-wingery" instead - but it won't happen because you don't have the power, do you?
Laura:My God I never thought I would see the day the Tories were on the side of Hamas terrorists and Iran.
And then to get in to the issues...
It's good that you haven't seen it yet then. The Israelis have a absolute right as a sovereign state to address attacks over their borders - my doubt is whether the military action will be effective in stopping the attacks. Yes, I agree, the language from the Conservative front bench was diplomatic, but it was also very clear, and diplomacy is only of any help once the guns fall silent. We need to broker that ceasefire (a full ceasefire, assuming that the Palestinian Authority has sufficient control over the various terrorist groups) first.
I'm not a foreign policy expert, by any means - but as far as I can recall, the only progress in the region has come when we got both sides to stop firing and start talking. Otherwise, Isralis kill more Palestinians, and Palestinians kill more Israelis, and nobody knows where it all ends.
Posted by: Richard Carey | January 04, 2009 at 17:41
The Hawks have It.
In My opnion the party is 100% behind Israel, although of course we must at least play at humanist concern and sound a note of restraint, but the fact is we all knew that Israel was being pelted with rockets daily. We really must back the reality of Israel and have no illusions that it can be undone. The Spirit of Belfor is the only long term solution to the holy lands. This nonsense of two states occupying the same place has to stop. Perhaps Egypt could back a return to common sence. Palestine never existed historically, before Israel there were locals and many of these people were Jewish. Israel always belonged to Jews and there is little point contesting this fact of reality. The Palestinian issue is a smoke screen for the activities of Principalities. The Local Arabs can live in peace in Israel if they drop their ridiculous attitude to ownership. Is-real was prosperous and a land flowing with milk and honey. It was meant to be shared not torn apart. If we can solve Jerusalem we can avoid the holocaust, but frankly Brothers if we fail in this we will be e-cursed and rightly so. First let there be an end to the nonsense coming out of Gaza.
Posted by: The Bishop Swine | January 04, 2009 at 18:06
Well said Richard Carey. Yes, Israel has a right to defend itself. But does action such as this ground offensive actually acheive anything, or just bottle up more anger and resentment for the future?
Speaking out against this fighting doesnt make us Hamas supporters. Diplomacy does work and theres no reason why it cant work here. For sure itll take longer than any other conflict but it can work if only the two sides would enter into it fully understanding that a lot of patience will be required but ultimately a solution can be found. Its called being mature...
Posted by: James Maskell | January 04, 2009 at 18:09
James Maskell: Well said Richard Carey... Its called being mature...
Thanks, James - I'm not sure it's about "maturity" in this case - it's more about trust, or more accurately, mistrust. For every day longer that that the international community takes to broker a ceasefire, for every Hamas rocket that lands in Israel and every Israeli shell that lands in Gaza, mistrust grows and the negotiations that we all know need to happen in order to render these groups irrelevant become more difficult in the long term.
Posted by: Richard Carey | January 04, 2009 at 18:41
No, not well said Richard Carey.
You appear to be the idiot if you think that you can negotiate with Hamas.
These are people who USE "ceasefires" to deploy more rocketry against Israel.
But it's really only a ceasefire unilaterally from Israel that you want, isn't it?
Thankfully naviety like yours, Hague's, and Lidington's will not be heeded by Israel, who will continue, rightfully, until Hamas is destroyed.
Posted by: Geoff Middleton | January 04, 2009 at 19:19
Geoff Middleton: These are people who USE "ceasefires" to deploy more rocketry against Israel. But it's really only a ceasefire unilaterally from Israel that you want, isn't it?
No, it's not. Please don't be so stupid as to try and misrepresent me. It's a lasting peace in the region that I want. I don't deny the difficulties and risks of attempting to negotiate with some of Palestinaian groups at all. And I don't much appreciate being called naive by the likes of you.
The question is really whether you genuinely think a military approach will work in the long term. I'm not convinced a political solution will hold long-term either, but a two-state solution is the best long-term shot that we have.
Posted by: Richard Carey | January 04, 2009 at 20:23
The Tories' traditional pro-Arab sentiments appear to be getting stronger. Extremely disappointing. They haven't understood much about what's been going on in Israel. Check this out:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0109/glick010209.php3
Posted by: Goldie | January 04, 2009 at 20:53
I too would agree with you wholeheartedly Richard. Well see what happens in the next few weeks and months but I would sincerely doubt that Israel will be able to destroy Hamas and a hell of a lot of innocent people will no doubt die before it's proved.
Not sure why Lidington bothered though, neither side will take any notice of him or any other foreign leader except the American president.
Some of the posts on this thread are deeply depressing. Unless one gives 100% support to all the actions of the Israeli government at all times one is labelled a terrorist supporter and or even more ridiculously anti semitic.
Posted by: Malcolm Dunn | January 04, 2009 at 21:02
Hamas wants to kill ALL Jews whereas Israel wants to kill Hamas and tries to avoid civillian casualties where possible. Israel and Hamas are not equals. I am rapidly losing faith in Hague.
Posted by: Don | January 04, 2009 at 21:06
Troll-Stone will next be telling us about an election in Germany 1933 and how he thinks it justified all the consequences, perhaps? He does for Hamas, after all.
Posted by: Super Blue | January 04, 2009 at 16:32
Superglue.You don`t get the point do you. The thing is when you believe in democracy you have to accept the peoples verdict. Democracy isn`t about saying to the people you can vote but only if you vote the way we want you to.
Posted by: Jack Stone | January 04, 2009 at 17:11
So there you have it; Draper-Stone defends Nazi policies in his own words.
Posted by: Super Blue | January 04, 2009 at 22:15
Imagine Hague in a position where he actually has responsibility and is taken serious... -- those two so remind me of the Navy crew that allowed themselves to be kidnapped by the Iranians...hapless and hopeless.
The UK desperately needs a proper conservative party with real conservative principles -- the Tories have long been hijacked by a group of professional politicians who do not have any other convictions than that they should be in power -- it's the lobbyists, not the voters who decide their policies and the only thing they are looking to conserve is their pork barrels.
And that is why the comments here are so often at odds with the incoherent mish-mash that is current Tory policy.
Democracy dies when the political parties become moral McDonalds.
(You want fries with that, Mr. Hague?)
Posted by: Cat | January 05, 2009 at 04:15
In WW2,the UK was attcked by V2 Rockets.
We got in our Lancs,and bombed the crap out the enemy.
I am sorry for civvies on both sides,one side however is beliberately targeting civvies,the other side killing terrorists,killing civvies by accident in the process.
No Western Power would tolerate having rockets fired upon their country.
Posted by: Richard | January 05, 2009 at 05:15
In WW2,the UK was attcked by V2 Rockets.
We got in our Lancs,and bombed the hell out the enemy.
I am sorry for civvies on both sides,one side however is beliberately targeting civvies,the other side killing terrorists,killing civvies by accident in the process.
No Western Power would tolerate having rockets fired upon their country.
Posted by: Richard | January 05, 2009 at 05:17
Looking at the pictures on the news last night, is Israel shooting cluster bombs on Gaza City or are they simply multiple guided missiles shot from a larger single missile? I thought there had been an agreement last year not to use cluster bombs. In an area such as the Gaza Strip the use of cluster bombs is apalling. Puts into question the Israeli claim they were being "surgical"...
As for teh Us President, it looks to me like listening to the US President is the last thing on the Israeli Governments minds right now.
Posted by: James Maskell | January 05, 2009 at 10:54
I do not agree with Hague, he seems to have lost the plot. A premature ceasefire will only result in more Israeli death’s as Hamas continues to fire its rockets across the border. Now that Israel has bitten the bullet it would be foolish to pull out before they have achieved their aims. Imagine what we would do if rockets were being directed at our civilians by terrorists on a daily basis. Hague says “The rocket attacks by Hamas on Israeli cities are acts of terrorism and must cease if there is to be a chance of restoring peace. But only a political agreement and a sustainable ceasefire, possibly backed up by international supervision, will bring about a permanent end to those rocket attacks.” I believe that the only long term answer is the removal of Hamas. If Hamas will not come quickly to the negotiating table then I think they only have themselves to blame for the destruction of their pretend state. If the only long term answer is the destruction of the Gaza strip then so be it. Hague has underestimated Israel’s resolve to end the threat to its population centers.
Posted by: The Bishop Swine | January 05, 2009 at 11:06
Cat said:
"The UK desperately needs a proper conservative party with real conservative principles -- the Tories have long been hijacked by a group of professional politicians who do not have any other convictions than that they should be in power"
I agree with the thrust of what you are saying. It's been a long time since we had leadership from people who had some principles and it shows. The top of the Tory party has been high jacked by a small in-group of mandarins who (its seems) went into politics to avoid becoming permanent civil servants. As a result there is no fire in their bellies. Of course Cameron makes the right noises but he doesn’t seem to be to hot on traditional conservatives ideals. Osborne admits that he sort of fell into politics which is blatantly obvious. Its not just our front bench that has been taken over by the professional politicians, in fact it may well have been Labour who succumbed to these people first.
I know that we still have some MP’s who believe in Conservative values but they are being drowned out by the likes of William Hague, who shows how far out of touch he is with our key values in his attitude to Israel. As the PCP is in the hands of a small "in" group of Etonians it would seem that it falls to the local parties to bring the fire brands to the attention of the press. We desperately need Conservatives to stand up and be counted, we need those who can explain what the difference between our traditional values and those of the commies on the other bench’s really are. We (dare I say) need to bang the drum for Britain and point to the clear blue water that divides us from the pinko’s. We need to wear out hearts on our sleeves making it clear that we back Great Britain, and we need to identify once again with our long held traditions, so I want to see a reverence for the person of Her Majesty restored to our party first, and then our great nation. Lets be absolutely clear about who we are and what we stand for. That way we will win the next election and put Britain back were it belongs at the very top of the heap. Lets not be scared to show our true colurs.
Posted by: The Bishop Swine | January 05, 2009 at 12:20
The onus should be on Hamas to return to the ceasefire. Israel is only defending itself.
Posted by: Werner Patels @ The Right Comment | January 05, 2009 at 23:16
Israel is a legitimate country, created by God and legally instituted by the United Nations. The reason that a Palestinian state does not exist is that Arab states hate Israel more than they care about their fellow Arabs: that is why they have spent 60 years seeking to destroy Israel rather than accepting the many olive branches which Israel has offered and which would have led to the creation of a separate Palestinian state.
As Conservatives, our position has to be clear. Israel is a democratic nation, our ally facing poisonous and implacable enemies. Her interests are our interests, and we should be 100% supportive. The aims of Hamas and their pals in Iran are identical to those of Nazi Germany: it is despicable that anti-semitism in this country has increased so much in the last twelve years that most people are too ignorant, blinkered or downright stupid to recognise this simple fact.
Our country has spent years engaged in a war in Iraq based on lies, billions of pounds and thousands of lives wasted, which has brought about the execution of the only man who could keep the place in order and a massive increase in the influence of our real enemy, Iran. My personal view is that Blair and his cronies should be hanged as traitors, because no group of people has ever done as much as they have to endanger the security of our country.
Is it tragic that Palestinian children are being killed? Of course it is. However, one of the difficulties in fighting terrorists is that terrorists ARE civilians, and as we know from recent attacks on British soldiers they DO use children actively as well as providing cover for their murderous plans. If Hamas were men, they would fight like men. Instead, they cower behind women and children, and use them as human shields as they launch their murderous attacks on Israel.
Joke: How many Palestinians does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer: None. They would rather sit in the dark and blame Israel.
Posted by: Didactophobe | January 06, 2009 at 08:56
I am actually very worried about William's chice of advisers. After all, the worst anti-Semitic post come from those generally self-identified as UKIP supporters (a party often referred to as "the BNP in blazers"). To follow their logic, nobody should ever resist IslamICIST terror but we should let them achieve their aims by threat.
Of course, the Foreign Office is notoriously Arabist - one might even think that the occasional FO mandarin has been inspiring this statement.
Posted by: Super Blue | January 06, 2009 at 09:35
"Of course, the Foreign Office is notoriously Arabist - one might even think that the occasional FO mandarin has been inspiring this statement."
It's also strange we have heard nothing from Edward McMillan-Scott who is probably the MEP most knowledgeable about the Arab World. I would be interested to hear his thoughts on the subject.
Posted by: Sally Roberts | January 06, 2009 at 09:41
PS Why is this whole thread now in italics?
Posted by: Super Blue | January 06, 2009 at 16:06
Problem corrected SuperBlue :-)
Posted by: Tim Montgomerie | January 06, 2009 at 16:10
I would have expected a tougher line from the Conservatives on condemning Hamas and more support for Israel.
Make no mistake, the aim of Hamas is the complete destruction of the State of Israel, a democratic nation and the only one in the region. The Israelis have to fight for their survival.
Incidentally, I always find it ironic that Israel is about the only part of the Middle East without a drop of oil, yet the only one that has First World standards.
Posted by: Cllr Alexa Michael | January 07, 2009 at 02:12
Alexa,
Whilst I have very strong reservations about William's statement, Cleggover this morning totally disgusted me.
Posted by: Super Blue | January 07, 2009 at 09:41
Why not, for a change call on hamas to stop bombing Israeli civilians for a change.
Why have you not persudaed hamas, for the last three years, to stop the rockets.
Why should Israel help gaza. Whay not ask Egypt to shoulder this burden?
gaza has no Israelis whatsoever since 2005. What has all EU and UN money been spent on?
If hamas is ostensibly for democracy, why did they kill 30 fatach representatives last week?
Posted by: dr oded szpiro | January 09, 2009 at 19:39
Thankyou, Dr. Szpiro. Despite Israel's part in Entebbe, the Arabists and Islamists who run our Foreign Office and BBC expect it to sit back and take twelve thousand rockets in five years. That is what they call a "ceasefire"?
Posted by: Super Blue | January 09, 2009 at 20:03