"Multiracial Britain is a success but immigration is too high"

That is how I would sum up the message which David Cameron delivered when asked about the thorny issue of immigration by Jeff Randall on Sky News last night.

The Tory leader has not exactly gone out of his way to raise the matter during his leadership, after the party courted criticism for making it too prominent an issue at the last general election.

However, he denied the suggestion that he had avoided discussing it and said the following:

“I think that immigration is too high, I think it needs to be limited and I think the numbers need to come down... I don’t think in any way I’ve shied away from this policy, but I wanted to make sure the Conservative Party would be listened to and heard as a bunch of reasonable people making a reasonable point. The problem in the past is whenever we’ve talked about this issue people questioned our motives – why are they doing that?”

“I think it was very important to make it clear that we believe in a multiracial Britain. We believe it’s a success. We think immigration has been good for Britain in the past. We think immigration will continue, but not any immigration, not all immigration, it needs to be controlled."

"Controlled Immigration" was of course the fifth of Michael Howard's five two-word phrases which he said summed up the major planks of Conservative policy in advance of the 2005 general election.

Jonathan Isaby

Comments

[Bradford]

I think it was very important to make it clear that we believe in a multiracial Britain. We believe it’s a success.

Cities like Bradford are now thriving towns enjoying a renaissance of architectural wonder and social harmony and an example of what the future holds for Britain as a whole.

[Bradford]

I think it was very important to make it clear that we believe in a multiracial Britain. We believe it’s a success.

Cities like Bradford are now thriving towns enjoying a renaissance of architectural wonder and social harmony and an example of what the future holds for Britain as a whole.

[Libbie Miller]

Multiracial Britain is a dismal failure! Ask anyone that lives in a densely immigrant populated area about the tensions that are evident.

The rise of the BNP has to give you a clue as to how angry people are and it's going to get worse. I can feel the mood becoming profoundly bitter and violent!

The Conservatives need to wake up and assure those people that the BNP is not the only party listening to their concerns.

[Libbie Miller]

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2009/01/lord-ahmed-threatens-parliament-into.html

This is the face of multiculturalism in Britain. In our efforts to appease, we have simply managed to deny ourselves our fundamental right to freedom of speech and the democracy that we used to hold so dear.

This story will hit the papers in the next few hours and the anger will grow!

[anon]

isn't Lord Ahmed the guy who was recently in trouble for texting while driving? Seems to be a magnet for trouble...

[Conspiracy]

So how would he define a success and would it be more of a success if it wasn't multiracial? I guess he won't dare comment on these questions!

[Dewsbury Tory]

Bradford you want to get yourself down to Dewsbury mate and see that multiculturalism is a huge failure!

[pp]

As far as I can see the only logical reason for Lord Ahmed to want to prevent the lords from seeing the film and making up their own minds is because he beleives he would lose any discussion/debate regarding its contents...

Is it available online anywhere?

p.s. I guess the other possilbility is that Lord Ahmed thought it would cost too much money for him to get enough lords on his side of any debate...

[Norm Brainer]

Well of course multiracial Britain is a success, as it always has been multi-racial.

There's a worry that by saying mutiracial, he is only talking about the selected races that harperson wants to discriminate towards.
It's the same as in the gay rights thread yesterday. If you group people into making them think they are a weak minority they will fight to restrict the rights of the majority so we end up with threats to the Lords that they will "mobilise 10,000 Muslims", or curtails on free speech.

That said, I agree with what I think he means that recent integrations are a good thing but there are problems as mentionned in the comments above so there should be a restriction on it to allow integration to happen naturally.

[Iain]

There is talk of building the Severn Barrage, that could possibly produce 5% of our energy needs, or the demand from 3 million people. Of course that only represents one third of the population increase the British establishment has pencilled in for us. Of course we could save the money, not destroy the river Severn environment by just by putting a stop to any more nett immigration, and that would be the greenest most sustainable policy of all!

[Edward Huxley]

Surely the problem is the sheer numbers of immigrants. Nobody objects to a small influx of strangers who adapt to our ways, but when they start to swamp the rest of us, trouble starts.

I don`t recall ever being asked if I wanted to live in a multi - racial society.

[RichardJ]

"Multiracial Britain is a success"

I'd say it's been a mixed bag. Of course we have benefitted from things like Chinese & Indian restaurants and various contributions to our cultural life. But we shouldn't ignore gang warfare, Islamic fundamentalism and other problems.

[Sally Roberts]

It is not "multiracial" Britain that is a failure - it is multiCULTURAL Britain and there is a difference. If those that come here from other cultures make an effort to integrate and accept the British way of life as groups in the past have done such as the Jews and the Huguenots then there is no problem. Difficulties arise when (as in areas of West Yorkshire and some parts of London for example) you have totally separated areas where a white person wonders if they are no longer in Britain at all but have somehow teleported to Islamabad, Kandahar or Kabul! English is not heard at all, women are universally hijab'd or burqa'd and outsiders either feel like a tourist or even unwelcome. This is where the problem lies and this is what the BNP try to exploit - they deliberately muddy the waters for their own ends.

[Praguetory]

I am sure that plenty of Left-wing journos will be licking their lips at this thread.

[Sally Roberts]

That's why, Praguetory, we have got to emphasise and clarify the point I make above - that multiracial Britain is positive provided those coming here make an effort to accept and integrate with our way of life here as so many groups in the past have done. I mentioned two but of course there are others - the East African Asians who came here during the 1970s are a prime example of a group which has assimilated and become highly successful whilst keeping their own racial and cultural identity.

[Hugh Oxford]

This is a classic example of why nobody trusts mainstream politicians and people are turning to people like the BNP.

Cameron is lying when he says that multiracialism has been a success. He's lying. It's just a barefaced lie. If he's going to lie about that, why would we trust him with anything else?

There are undoubtedly black and Asian people who have contributed much to this country and are better Britons than most indigenous people.

But who can honestly say that if this country was ethnically homogeneous it would not be one less serious problem to worry about?

[Iain]

"it is multiCULTURAL Britain and there is a difference"

Yes multiculturalism is tribalism dressed up in a long word.

But as I posted the other day, the UN has a view on mass immigration...

The United Nations Declaration on the rights of the indigenous people:

Article 5 – Every indigenous individual has a right to a Nationality

Article 7 - Indigenous peoples have the collective and individual right not to be subjected to ethnocide and cultural genocide, including prevention of and redress for:
(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;
(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;
(c) Any form of population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;
(d) Any form of assimilation or integration by other cultures or ways of life imposed on them by legislative, administrative or other measures;
(e) Any form of propaganda directed against them

Which would suggest that people rather than being racist for objecting to mass immigration, its is in fact the policy of mass immigration that is racist.

[Sally Roberts]

"But who can honestly say that if this country was ethnically homogeneous it would not be one less serious problem to worry about?"

OK, Hugh Oxford, let's say for the sake of argument that you are right - which "race" will you choose for "homogenity" in this country?
Anglo-Saxon?
Viking?
Norman?
Pictish?
Scottish?
Celtic?

I could go on..but the point I am simply trying to make is that there is no one "English" race and it is nonsense to talk about an "indigenous people" therefore. We are a glorious mix and always have been and that is to our benefit.

[The Bishop swine]

Libbie Miller makes a good point. If our multiracial Nation is so successful why are the BNP doing so well. Go into many towns and you will soon find the racial ghettos if you are willing to look. Whilst I am happy to have people of all colour and from all cultures living in the UK, it would be far more healthy if the different groups all lived together. When I go to my local boot sale it is now unusual to hear an English voice.
Labour allowed a truly massive number of people to come here during their artificial boom, it is hardly rocket science to work that now the boom is over, many people are angered by the vast numbers of foreign nationals that are putting a strain on our welfare system and who (it is felt) take many of the jobs that UK born and bred people could be doing. Labour has enforced their PC censorship so well that one is now considered very dangerous indeed if you dare to criticise the way multicultural Britain is turning out. Migration into the UK should mean, learning the language and fitting in to the new country. Sadly it seems that mostly it means coming to the UK and then living in a ghetto of your own national group. We have seen the beginnings of no go areas in my town, were an ethnically white person dare not venture at night.
The Muslim community is admirably well behaved in our town, but the fact is they have taken over a large area of it, built their community, with its own shops and places of worship. Visit any part of this Muslim ghetto and you feel like you have been transported to a different part of the world. As the financial squeeze gets worse the racial anger that has been suppressed inside the PC, pressure cooker will inevitable come to the fore. We can only destroy the worse aspects of the BNP if we can offer their average membership a real alternative. I believe we need to quickly redefine ourselves as the Natural party of the ONE NATION. A one nation in which racial differences are celebrated but which remains fundamentally British in nature and tone. It is vital that we discourage those who have come here to live and work from living in ethnic ghetto’s. Only by mixing fully with the local population can these outsiders becomes part of our Nation. We should not be shy about our fundamental British-ness, our Christian history and our sensible liberalism. As it is today you are more likely to come across a celebration of somebody elses culture than our own. This PC madness must be stopped or we will shortly see a bloodbath on our streets.

[Sally Roberts]

" I believe we need to quickly redefine ourselves as the Natural party of the ONE NATION."

Absolutely, Bishop Swine and this is what I'm saying too!
Not long ago I went to stay with a friend in West Yorkshire (in fact Annabel Herriott from here) and it was the most incredible experience visiting her local supermarket where we were definitely amongst the minority. Where I live in West London there are plenty of hijab'd women and the occasional niqab or burqa - but this was something else!!

[The Bishop swine]

"no one "English" race and it is nonsense to talk about an "indigenous people" therefore. We are a glorious mix and always have been and that is to our benefit."

I agree we are a mix of different European tribes who have settled here. However the important word is Mix. What causes most of the problem, is the thousands who are living here in ethnic enclaves who do not mix and who are fundamentally opposed to the culture of the vast majority. I believe a person can be absolutely British and yet have come from any national group on earth. Being British has nothing to do with skin colour or even religious background. It is a way of being that takes full account of our Great Nations History and the factors that made (and still make) Britian a great country in which to live.

[David_at_Home]

"It is not "multiracial" Britain that is a failure - it is multiCULTURAL Britain and there is a difference."

I agree too about the highly beneficial effect of the East African Asians. There was also Marconi and Marc Brunel (Isombard’s Dad) and, most important of all, Mrs_at_Home.

These days, Sally, I find I tend to agree with almost everything you write. You must be slowly turning from a true blue herring into a kipper!

[Sally Roberts]

Or, David, you could be turning back into a Tory! As I have said on more than one occasion I look forward eventually to welcoming you back into our Party (and your friend Henry too though I think we might have a little further to go with him!) :-)

[Edward Huxley]

I forgot to mention one point. We can huff and puff about this, but the decision about who can come and live in this country is not made here any more - Brussels decides.

Another good reason for leaving the EU.

[Iain]

"there is no one "English" race and it is nonsense to talk about an "indigenous people" therefore. We are a glorious mix and always have been and that is to our benefit."

Ah the old 'mongrel ' propaganda used to deny people ownership of their country and culture, well as I far as I can gather we were until recently reasonably racially harmonious, but I am not debating nor wish to debate that point, the question is indigenous and here you make the mistake of believing indigenous is about aboriginal racial purity, its not, its about a people being 'of' a place, here English people being in England would fill that criteria.

[Dewsbury Tory]

Sally

The United Nations define an indigenous population in the following way -
The term indigenous peoples or autochthonous peoples can be used to describe any ethnic group of people who inhabit a geographic region with which they have the earliest known historical connection, alongside migrants which have populated the region and which are greater in number.

It does not matter what ethnicity we are, what matters is that the white indigenous population of the UK have been here for centuries and in the modern Britain have as defined by the UN the "earliest known historical connection" You can hardly say that poles, hungarians, albanians, kosovans, kurds, pakistani, somali, indians etc have an historical connection and inhabited Britain for centuries, the strongest claim goes to the indidan sub-continent whose people migrated here 60 years ago and many of whom have deliberately turned parts of the UK into their own version of the their countries where they migrated from.

[Sally Roberts]

Dewsbury Tory - you should blame Labour's insistence on multiculturalism and their encouragement of groups living in, effectively, their own little world and not being expected to integrate with the rest of us (or even learn English). This is the problem and this is what we have to address.
Having visited your part of the world (as I mentioned) I understand entirely where you are coming from but I believe you have lost sight of the fact that we need to blame Labour for what has happened.

[Hugh Oxford]

OK, Hugh Oxford, let's say for the sake of argument that you are right - which "race" will you choose for "homogenity" in this country?
Anglo-Saxon?
Viking?
Norman?
Pictish?
Scottish?
Celtic?

Oh not this old canard. By that line of reasoning there are no Spaniards, no French, no Indians, certainly no Pakistanis (it was created in 1947), no Welsh, no Sioux, no Nigerians.

In fact, in a world of widely acknowledged and self-identifying ethnic groups, the British peoples are amongst the oldest and most coherent, and also the most generous and flexible in terms of their acceptance of outsiders into the fold. I am one of those outsiders.

Let me tell you how immigration should have happened, but hasn't.

Abdul should have come over from Pakistan, and married Jane. Jane and Abdul should have had two kids, Stephen and Lucy. Stephen and Lucy should have married Clare and Tom. Their offspring should have been a quarter Pakistani so that on a good day with the wind behind you you might think that they had a Spanish grandparent or something.

We were misled on the nature and purpose of immigration. Now it looks like our country is being handed over piecemeal like a lottery prize to the world's losers.

The Conservatives need to start doing a bit of conservation, because if they don't, other people will.

I grew up in a household where the name Enoch Powell was mud, where it was as close to Hitler as it was possible to be. Now I see Enoch Powell as a decent and humane visionary who has been wholly rehabilitated into the canon of martyred good guys.

My generation has been far too comfortable. We do have a fight on our hands now, though sadly half the battle is against the incumbent political establishment.

[Dewsbury Tory]

Sally

We are in full agreement there is absolutely no doubt that the Labour Party, the unions etc have all played their part in protecting the "block vote" of particularly ethnic votes and they have pandered excessively to their every whim and do so to most other immigrant communites not just the established ones.

[Jack Iddon]

Multiracial Britain may be a success for many of the incomers and those looking on at a distance, but I doubt you would be regarded as such by the displaced indigenous population of areas of Stoke on Trent and similar.
I wonder at what point a nation becomes multiracial as opposed to simply having a minority of immigrants from other races, 5%, 10%, 20%, where are we in Britain on this scale and how could one find out? There must I suppose be a little job creation man in a dark corner of Whitehall, probably an immigrant, who will have determined this I am sure.
Of course there are pro's and con's and many benefits as well as costs, but my concern is that the next year or so of financial and job insecurity for many folk in our "multiracial" nation will focus peoples minds on the negative side of the issue with what consequences I can only wait and see.

[Sarf Lunnon]

I am sorry to have to tell Sally Roberts she doesn't know what she's talking about: Anglo-Saxon, southern (Danish) Viking and Norman are all the same race (identical DNA). Norse Viking (NE England, Eastern Scotland and Orkney) have slightly dfferent DNA and can therefore be differentiated. There are no Picts left (possibly some trace in Orkney). Scots who aren't Norse Viking are Celtic.
Broadly speaking, DNA shows that, splitting England geographically into three north/south sections, even today (and contrary to popular mythology) the East is primarily Anglo Saxon (Viking etc), the central section is 50/50 Anglo-Saxon / Celt 'mixed race', and the west is Celtic. London has been the exception since the Middle Ages. Pre 1950s immigration by Huguenots and Jews was very small in numerical terms and had no statistically significant impact on the racial composition of the UK. Apart from them there had been no other racial immigration into the UK since the arrival of Anglo Saxons into the eastern parts in the period 450 - 900 (the Norman Anglo Saxons who came in 1066 were a tiny number).
It is fascinating that DNA shows that even today the population of UK is surprisingly static, except for the immigration from elsewhere in the UK to London which has been going on since the Middle Ages.

[The Bishop's Wife]

"Or, David, you could be turning back into a Tory! As I have said on more than one occasion I look forward eventually to welcoming you back into our Party (and your friend Henry too though I think we might have a little further to go with him!) :-)"

Isn't it time for UKIP to come home ? Most especially now we are clear about Europe?

PS I agree with almost everything you say as well Sally.

[Anthony Scholefield]

Why is this matter'thorny'? It is only thorny if you accept the fundamental premise which Cameron explicitly states that 'immigration has been good for Britain'.
Quite rightly the immigration lobby then says -well'why are you trying to control and stop it if it is so beneficial for the British people.'
The Cameron answer sems to be 'it is beneficial in the numbers I say'.
This is weak and condescending.

[Sally Roberts]

"Oh not this old canard. By that line of reasoning there are no Spaniards, no French, no Indians, certainly no Pakistanis (it was created in 1947), no Welsh, no Sioux, no Nigerians."

Hardly a "canard" (French for duck!), Hugh Oxford but a genuine and reasonable argument.
Think of the French and again you have to decide whether they are Norman, Breton, Provencal or North African!
Spanish - well, at one time Spain formed part of the Islamic World.
Nigeria - well, you have Ibo, Hausa and several other tribes....
I could go on but you I think have effectively proved my case.

[Iain]

"you should blame Labour's insistence on multiculturalism "

I think most of us do, but are pretty exasperated that we find the 'new' Conservatives wittering on is support of this Cultural Marxist policy, which shows they are completely clueless about what is a Nation and what keeps it knitted together.

[Yorkshireman, Yorkshire]

OK, Hugh Oxford, let's say for the sake of argument that you are right - which "race" will you choose for "homogenity" in this country?
Anglo-Saxon?
Viking?
Norman?
Pictish?
Scottish?
Celtic?

I could go on..but the point I am simply trying to make is that there is no one "English" race and it is nonsense to talk about an "indigenous people" therefore. We are a glorious mix and always have been and that is to our benefit.

Posted by: Sally Roberts | January 27, 2009 at 09:50

Sally,
But all of the above groups or of a similar racial background.More importantly the historical,cultural and to certain extent, religious background and as such are similar enough to be be accepting of each other. Most of these groups speak english for a start.

Now look at groups from the following countries :

-Somalia
-Pakistan
-Albania

What social, cultural, religious, linguistic and historical traditions do these groups have in common with the previously mentioned groups? What material and significant cultural and historical commonalities do you suggest that I have in common with eg people from Somalia? Personally I'm not the slightest bit concerned about their ethnic origin (but what basis is that for getting on with anyone?). I'm struggling to work out what the great social, economic and cultural benefits are from the vast majority of people in these groups?. Please tell me Sally because for the life of me I can't work out what it is? I'm open to being enlightened on this subject ?. Please explain to me what I have in common with someone who believes in Sharia Law, a legal system under which I would be classified as a second class citizen (Dhimmi).

I've dated women of different ethnic groups and I've no problem at all with multi-racial viewpoints but so called
Multi-culturalism has been a total and utter disaster.

[Sally Roberts]

That, Mr Yorkshireman, is precisely why I argue for integration with the host community!!

[Hugh Oxford]

That, Mr Yorkshireman, is precisely why I argue for integration with the host community!!

You ARGUE for it? You ARGUE for it?

Oh well thank goodness for that. With people like you in charge what's there to worry about?

[Dontmakemelaugh in Oz Down Under]

"It is not "multiracial" Britain that is a failure - it is multiCULTURAL Britain and there is a difference. If those that come here from other cultures make an effort to integrate and accept the British way of life as groups in the past have done such as the Jews and the Huguenots then there is no problem. Difficulties arise when (as in areas of West Yorkshire and some parts of London for example) you have totally separated areas where a white person wonders if they are no longer in Britain at all but have somehow teleported to Islamabad, Kandahar or Kabul! English is not heard at all, women are universally hijab'd or burqa'd and outsiders either feel like a tourist or even unwelcome".
Sally Roberts

Precisely:

Cameron and many politicos wilfully refuse to recognise the difference between race and culture: in the end it is culture and not race that dominates. Read Cranmer's blog: he understands what Lord Ahmed is all about in promoting his own culture - a culture that is in many ways a contradiction of our own - the indigenous and overwhelmingly Caucasian population united by its Judeao/Christian heritage - we deny and abandon it at our peril. To deny or argue that Britain has not its own indigenous population, united over the centuries and forged into a common culture, is ridiculous

Cameron weakly describes immigration as being "too high"; he should have described as being at totally unacceptable levels for the that needed to be drastically cut. Read "Immigration Watch"

[Hugh Oxford]

That, Mr Yorkshireman, is precisely why I argue for integration with the host community!!

And where do you argue for it exactly? Do you argue for it in the madrassas of Oldham? Do you argue for it in the mosques of Bradford? Do you argue for it in the Halal butchers of the Alum Rock Road?

Were you arguing for it when the police were running for their lives through Whitehall from ten thousand psychotic Mohamedans screaming "Allah Akbar" waving banners urging the murder of the Infidel and the Jews?

How did it go?

[Ellis]

Sarf Lunnon good post and the truth, if Hugh Oxford did his research instead of spreading his multi-cult properganda. We are europeons this is our homeland, us indigenous are closely linked in DNA, we where europeon tribes and this is our homeland and has been for past millenia, I can trace my ancestors back to the celtics and anglo saxons. Why do you think people are voting like me BNP?, your denying my existence. I have no rights as an indigenous, multicultrualism is a faliure Enoch Powell spoke the truth!. In my area we lost a seat by 8 votes over the torys, if multicultrualism was such a sucess then why do we get such a vote? answer that.

[Hugh Oxford]

if Hugh Oxford did his research instead of spreading his multi-cult properganda

Errr, I think you might have got the wrong man...

[former Tory]

Typical anydyne Cameron. Multiracial Britain is an unmitigated disaster when racists such as trevor Phillips can spout garbage such as this:
"Parliament may be the pumping heart of our democracy, but its lifeblood is white, male and straight. That has to change."

Source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/4290154/Trevor-Phillips-warns-that-Britain-could-return-to-racism-as-recession-bites.html

[Yorkshireman, Yorkshire]

Sally,

To integrate there has to be large and material areas of commonality in traditions, beliefs, culture etc. How would you propose to integrate the believers of wahabbi Islam with the everyday Brit residents of an estate in Barnsley?. What is it that is going to bind them together ? A vague statement about "integration" has no substance ? Perhaps you might like to try and live in certain areas of Bradford and explain to both sides what areas of "integration" you are proposing that everyone has overlooked for the last 40 years?

You haven't provided a susbstantive answer to the points raised in my last post and I'll raise once again : If someone believes in Sharia Law and that unbelievers are second class citizens of a lower status (this is a timeless and agreed viewpoint of all schools of Islamic thought) how do you envisage that "integration" would work in this circumstance.Why should I respect / "integrate" someone with this viewpoint?

If a muslim man views your testimony as worth half that of any man, how would you propose to "integrate" this viewpoint? What do you see as being the cultural benefits of this viewpoint?

Specific comments rather than generalities would be appreciated.

[resident leftie]

With certain noble exceptions (Sally being one), this thread reminds of that so many Tory grassroots supporters are repellently bigotted, disguising racism with what is in effect white nationalism. Powell was a racist and is a poster boy for the BNP and other far right parties, and if you want to jump into bed with him, you should take a close look in the mirror.

Thank you for reminding me once more why I support the Labout party.

[Dewsbury Tory]

Ellis, we are not European's either! We have a different language, culture and history to the Europeans. Europe stretches to Asia.

We are an Island race that is geographically located in the North Atlantic, anchored off the European continent. We have our own language, culture, customs, traditions and history and uncontrolled immigration and excessive pandering over many, many years to the established immigrant communuties in this country had eroded the confidence and identity of the white indigenous majority population and it will continue to do so if it is not addressed. We are already curtailed in our thoughts and words by political correctness and its not just our freedom of speech that is under threat its our identity. The Conservative Party should adopt a policy of controlled immigration and a policy of intergration by those already here and those wanting to settle here and we can start by doing very simple things like insisting that people speak English and not bend over backwards spending huge sums of money on translation and alternative signs. In my home town of Dewsbury we have signs in the Library in English, Urdu, Gujarati, Punjabi and Polish! It is high time all of these people spoke and understood English.

[Ellis]

Sorry Hugh I was reffering to Sally, my apologies!.

[Iain]

" reminds of that so many Tory grassroots supporters are repellently bigotted, disguising racism "

And the ethnic and cultural cleansing due to mass immigration and multiculturalism isn't racism?

[Dewsbury Tory]

Iain, we can never win with the liberal left in this country. If we raise difficult issues and we dare to criticise immigrants for not respecting the culture and customs of our country if we dare to suggest they do something unreasonable like speak the native language we are labled BNP or racists. That is their default position, anyone who suggests that established and migrant immigrant communities fit in and integrate into mainstream British society then we are bigots and racists, its a disgrace what this country has come to.

[Yorkshireman, Yorkshire]

"You haven't provided a susbstantive answer to the points raised in my last post and I'll raise once again : If someone believes in Sharia Law and that unbelievers are second class citizens of a lower status (this is a timeless and agreed viewpoint of all schools of Islamic thought) how do you envisage that "integration" would work in this circumstance.Why should I respect / "integrate" someone with this viewpoint?"

Dear resident leftie,

Please feel free to identify where the "racial" aspect is in the above comment?
What part of the criticism of the belief of "second class" citizen status do you think is "racist"? What part of "second class" citizen status is factually incorrect and not in the Koran? If you disagree with "second class" status does that make you a "racist"?

You're trying to spray around smears to close down a legitimate debate. Its not working...

Specific comments rather than generalities would be appreciated

[IRJMilne]

I agree with the criticism of the "mongrel nation" stuff, which irritates me no end. Although in fact I see nothing to disagree with in Sally Roberts' first post.

[Adam]

Dewsbury Tory - you are painting a picture of your town as being a hell hole. It can't be that bad surely?

[Angelo Basu]

"Abdul should have come over from Pakistan, and married Jane. Jane and Abdul should have had two kids, Stephen and Lucy. Stephen and Lucy should have married Clare and Tom. Their offspring should have been a quarter Pakistani so that on a good day with the wind behind you you might think that they had a Spanish grandparent or something."

Are you sure about this? What if Abdul and Jane thought that say, Barack Hussein, was a nice name for their boy who then married Ayesha and had a couple of children called Mohammed and Laila who, if you looked carefully, had some of their grandmother Jane's features but you'd think were Pakistani?

Is the "melting pot" OK if everyone ends up just being prettier versions of white but worrying if there's still rather too much tar? Or are the BNP right in thinking that the biggest tragedy is to be mixed race?

Multiculturalism is a horror in that it sets up different groups in tribal identities against one another, but those who go on about "British" identity in racial terms are playing the same game just reasserting one of the teams that has been forgotten by the Left. British, or English/Scots/Welsh cultural identity should be nothing to do with race and thankfully that seems to have been picked up on by Cameron. Racially a white Dane is more British than say, Shaun Bailey, but it seems peculiarly cranky to try and argue it as being a meaningful distinction or way of determining what it is to be British in practice.

[Edward Huxley]

Sorry to go on about this, but while I sympathise with Dewsbury Tory can he not see that it is a waste of time to say "The Conservative party should adopt a policy of controlled immigration"? The Conservative Party, the Labour party and the Libdems can rabbbit on about this ad nausea - complete waste of time. This will be decided in Brussels,the EU has taken this over as it has nearly everything else. The only way to regain control over our affairs, including immigration, is to get OUT of the EU.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Iain | January 27, 2009 at 11:26

" reminds of that so many Tory grassroots supporters are repellently bigotted, disguising racism "

And the ethnic and cultural cleansing due to mass immigration and multiculturalism isn't racism?

Using "ethnic cleansing" in this context is an absolute disgrace. Do you actually no what it means, and the parallel you are making, between the deliberate mass murder of individuals based on their race, and you not liking rubbing up against people of different colour and culture?

[Hugh Oxford]

Racially a white Dane is more British than say, Shaun Bailey, but it seems peculiarly cranky to try and argue it as being a meaningful distinction or way of determining what it is to be British in practice.

I completely agree with you. It's about where you're at, not where you're from, but that doesn't mean that there isn't an indigenous British ethnicity.

I have no problem with people of ethnic minorities coming to Britain, as long as they do not come in sufficient critical masses to form "communities", so long as they abandon the identity, mores, language, garb and religion of the countries from which they have come and so long as they do their utmost to make their offspring as indistinguishable from the indigenous population as possible.

I say this as a second generation immigrant myself, whose parents did exactly that.

[Dewsbury Tory]

Adam it is that bad! Believe me. We have a small hard core element particularly in the muslim community, many of which I have to say are great, very modern, progressive people. But the hard core element run the sharia court which is located here, they insist on their woman wearing the full dress burkha, if you came here you would be astounded, for example, I walked into Dewsbury yesterday and no word of lie, I did not hear an English conversation for alsmost six minutes walking through my home town. I heard conversations amoung local muslims, kurds, kosovans and poles and I came across a white couple after about six minutes getting on a bus! The 7/7 bomber is from Dewsbury, the veil woman is from Dewsbury its a nightmare, it is like a foreign country and nobody gives a damn.

[Sally Roberts]

Resident Leftie - I can tell you if you looked hard enough you would find far more Tories like myself than you would of the other tendency! But of course I know that isn't what you want to hear....

[Jon Gale]

I challenge anyone to list these alleged 'successes' or benefits of multiracialism.

Multiracial Britain is an unmitigated failure, and has resulted in increased crime, depressed wages, racial unrest/riots, terrorism, election fraud (whats the unspoken common factor in all postal vote rigging cases?), adoption of foreign quarrels (e.g. muslim v jew violence over Gaza recently), and the financial cost of translation/subsidies/initiatives/Commission for Racial Equality, etc

[former Tory]

Typical anoydyne Cameron. Multiracial Britain is an unmitigated disaster when racists such as Trevor Phillips can spout rubbish such as this:
"Parliament may be the pumping heart of our democracy, but its lifeblood is white, male and straight. That has to change."

Source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/4290154/Trevor-Phillips-warns-that-Britain-could-return-to-racism-as-recession-bites.html

[Iain]

"Using "ethnic cleansing" in this context is an absolute disgrace. Do you actually no what it means, and the parallel you are making, between the deliberate mass murder of individuals based on their race"

I am not sure you have that definition correct, certainly murder can be part of it, but if it was solely murder then it would be called genocide. Essentially it is about making a people unwelcome in an area and have them move out. Here it could be said that indigenous culture has been 'cleansed' from large sections of Leicester, where the BBC is getting very excited that it will become the first 'plural' city, where the indigenous people will no longer be a majority, which has to contravene the rights the UN has given to indigenous peoples.

[Yorkshireman, Yorkshire]

Yoo hoo, Mr Resident leftie

You still haven't answered the point I raised earlier ("second class citizens). As you appear committed to equality it shouldn't be too hard for you to come up with some comment?

We'd all like to hear from you on this one.We're waiting......and waiting.....and waiting....

[Libbie Miller]

You can argue semantics all you like, meanwhile the BNP will gather strength and then you'll wonder what hit you.

Simple fact is, before the present immigrant invasion, the resident population (of whatever origin) lived in relative harmony and integration. They were all proud of their roots but also of their Britishness!

To discuss the reasons why this has disappeared is a waste of time because we all know why.

The first step is to stop lying about how great multicultural Britain is, it's not, it's a bloody mess and everyone knows it.

You can ignore the plight of the ordinary man if you live in a nice traditional middle class area. You can preach to those same people about how much the recent immigrants have contributed but the truth is, they neither care or believe you.

They know what's happening to their estate, to their town. They are being outnumbered and having to move out (if they can) to other areas to avoid being a minority in the towns of their birth. They constantly hear about crime going up and everyone knows someone who has been a victim.

No matter what the pious say, in one way or another mass immigration has caused this rise in crime especially knife crime.

So stop lying, tell the pious to shut up and start telling the truth and you might get a bit of respect and perhaps the BNP won't become a force to be reckoned with!

[Sandy Jamieson]

I'm glad this hasn't been dominated by BNP Trolls but in some ways has developed into an interesting fascinating discussion on the ethnic origins of the British with emphasis on the English in particular.

For those of us who were educated in history pre-comprehensive education (and when history was taught over a clear time-line) the discovery and application of DNA has demolished much of our understanding of the Anglo-Saxon-Jute invasions following the Legions leaving the country in the early 5th century. The people then were a Celtic people (mainly Brythonic) and on reflection, it is clear that the Anglo Saxons initially did not bring their women with them- perhaps the chiefs did but not the average warrior. So you have parties of testosterone enhanced 17-25 years old wandering round the country killing the males in a community, looking at the women with the following thought, "They're a bit short and dark haired compared with the blonds back home but women are women" This may explain why the bodies in later Saxon burial mounds are shorter than in earlier ones. Such parties ravishing the countryside from the Forth to the Thames.

We now know that there is a very strong Celtic strain in the English-indeed in DNA terms, the nearest relatives to the English in Europe are the Scots followed by the Welsh and vice versa which must come as a bit of a shock to both Plaid and the SNP

For myself I reckon on my father's side I'm Norse/Scots and my mother's side, English-Celt, Irish-Celt, Huguenot and Welsh-Celt.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Yorkshireman, Yorkshire | January 27, 2009 at 11:32

I've read your comments, and your theory appears to be that if people are different to you, you don't want them in the country. One of the reasons that multiculturalism is so great is that the differences enrich our British culture; it works both ways. In what way, personally, are you negatively affected by multiculturalism?

You are also conflating religion with race. No one is asking you to respect anyone else's religious beliefs. People assimilate when they are accepted. They adapt to British customs when people treat them with respect. It's their children who will be integrated, not the first generation migrants.

Are Afro-Carribeans too "different", Indians, Chinese, Poles? What about the people of Lancashire? What is your criteria for " too different"? Basically it's "I don't like the look of them." Your default position appears to be that if you aren't white, you are too "different" to be acceptable. Do you really think the Vikings, Saxons and Normans shared the same culture, or even a similar culture? No, but their melanin levels were about the same. As for history, there have been black people in this country since Roman times; we had our first MP of Indian origin in 1892. Immigrants from what is now Pakistan have been recorded since the 17th Century. If you see a Somali, you are assuming a lot about them without any evidence, based on what you've said.

None of this is to say that immigration should not be controlled, nor is it Labour policy to have open borders. But, unless you internalise that being British is not the same as being a white Christian, you'll never be happy in this country. There is no going back to a mythical white-only past.

The BNP are succeful because they prey on fear, deprivation and ignorance. They spread lies and create scapegoats. You can't beat them by adopting their beliefs. You fight them by lifting rocks and shining torches. As always most problems are down to poverty and class, not race. You don't get race riots in Golders Green.

Where multiculturalism works best is where people live side by side, without monocultural communities. Many places in London have this profile; Brixton for example; and that's what we should be looking at.

[Northern Conservative]

'Multiracial Britain is a success but immigration is too high' says David Cameron.

I suspect that most people who live in areas of high recent immigration would disagree with his view that it has been (overall) a success, and, if immigration is too high, why has Cameron been so silent on what could be done to reduce it?

Further, why does he not speak out on all the 'fiddles' that are used to get into Britain and the Government's stupidity in being so soft on illegal entrants?

If he comes to power, could we trust Cameron to do something about the mess we have created from excessive immigration?

I very much doubt it!

[Yorkshireman, Yorkshire]

Sally Roberts

Any chance that you'll take the opportunity to answer the points I raised earlier ?

Thanks

[Deborah]

Many of those posting above seem shocked and incredulous at Dewsbury Tory's desciption of his town. Too few people understand how much these West Yorkshire towns have changed in recent years.

[Sally Roberts]

"You haven't provided a susbstantive answer to the points raised in my last post and I'll raise once again : If someone believes in Sharia Law and that unbelievers are second class citizens of a lower status (this is a timeless and agreed viewpoint of all schools of Islamic thought) how do you envisage that "integration" would work in this circumstance."

That specific point you mention, Yorkshireman, wouldn't lead to successful integration. If that someone "believed in sharia law" they would have to be told that in this country we do not have sharia law, we have common law and statute law and that they would have to set aside their own wish for sharia law if they were going to live in Britain. If they could not accept that then, regrettably, they would have to live in a country which did run theiir legal system under sharia law.

[Martin Wright]

I think we need to be careful about the meaning of the prefix "multi". In some circumstances it can mean an fairly even spread. Imaginine a town in the Balkans where the population was spread evenly between Muslim, Catholic Croat and Orthodox Serb. That is one form of "multi culturalism" and clearly we know it needs careful management (which it got under Tito) or things can go horribly wrong, as it did in the 1990s

But the situation we have here in Britain is quite different. Here we have 90% who stem from Celtic or Anglo-Saxon roots and a Christian heritage. To that we now add 10% of people who are relatively recent arrivals (either personally or through their parents/grandparents). But this 10% is made up of many groups not just one, so there are 3% of one group, 2% of another and so on.

We ought to keep those proportions in mind more than we do. Many sensible immigrants like the Archbishop of York are quite happy to talk of the "host community" and naturally he admires Britain's Christain tradition, democracy etc. These "good immigrants" (I suspect the vast majority until Labour indiscrimately opened the flood gates)recognise that the thing to do is to integrate by learning our language and adopting our traditions of democracy, while of course retaining their religion and things from their own heritage like cuisine. That approach has indeed worked pretty well.

What has not worked so well is when we start to get identity politics, grievance politics and the like. Of course we should treat all *individuals* equally in terms of job opportunities etc, and we should always respect people's right to have their own religion.

But we need to retain a sense of proportion and make it clear, firmly but politely, that the long established host culture is the lead culture in this country. Just by sheer numbers and by right of having been here well over 1,000 years, it should not be trumped by demands of this or that minority group. That means that we should change the focus on the training and testing of prospective new citizens to language skills and awareness of democratic history, rather than the current tick box process. And at the margin it means we have a right to ban minority cultural aspects such as forced marriage. We've seen before how lack of self confidence and misplaced "cultural sensitivity" can lead to tragedy as in the Victoria Climbie case.

I suspect that most decent people of immigrant stock would actually welcome such a display of cultural self confidence. And a message like that, followed by consistent behaviour, would deflate support for the BNP in no time at all.

[Deborah]

"No one is asking you to respect anyone else's religious beliefs." - Resident Leftie

You are wrong. Those who are implementing Sharia law DO expect us to respect their religious beliefs above our own laws.

[Libbie Miller]

Comment of the Day on your Home Page :

Sally Roberts: "There is no one 'English' race and it is nonsense to talk about an 'indigenous people' therefore. We are a glorious mix and always have been and that is to our benefit."

The pious have spoken and I can quietly go and throw up in the knowledge that I tried to tell you.

[resident leftie]

Iain said:

Here it could be said that indigenous culture has been 'cleansed' from large sections of Leicester, where the BBC is getting very excited that it will become the first 'plural' city, where the indigenous people will no longer be a majority, which has to contravene the rights the UN has given to indigenous peoples.

Iain, you have clearly demonstrated my point, that you have no idea what you are talking about, and are nursing an enormous and undeserved sense of grievance. Did a person of ethnic origin kill your puppy?

"Ethnic cleansing is a euphemism referring to the persecution through imprisonment, expulsion, or killing of members of an ethnic minority by a majority to achieve ethnic homogeneity in majority-controlled territory. It is sometimes used interchangeably with the more connotatively severe term genocide."

No one is being imprisoned, expelled or killed. No UN rights are being breached. Leicester is a fantastically diverse city. What problem is that causing you?

It's amzing how the only time many Tories are interested in the working class is when they can get a nice lather up about "immigrants stealing their jobs and homes," where immigrants is a euphamism for non-whites.

Sally, I know a number of Tories in person who aren't bigotted. But I'm afraid I all-too-frequently get that conspiratorial "don't you think there are too many immigrants round here" opener.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Deborah | January 27, 2009 at 12:23
"No one is asking you to respect anyone else's religious beliefs." - Resident Leftie

You are wrong. Those who are implementing Sharia law DO expect us to respect their religious beliefs above our own laws.

Rubbish. You don't have to respect Sharia law, nor will you ever have to obey it. See the previous thread on this subject on ConHome to avoid repetition.

[Deborah]

"Here we have 90% who stem from Celtic or Anglo-Saxon roots and a Christian heritage. To that we now add 10%...made up of many groups not just one, so there are 3% of one group, 2% of another and so on. " - Martin Wright

These statistics do not bear any resemblance to the true situation in many of our northern towns.

[Sally Roberts]

Nothing pious about me My Dear Libbie! As to the image of you throwing up - some of us are trying to eat our lunch :-(

[Iain]

"One of the reasons that multiculturalism is so great is that the differences enrich our British culture"

So you are saying that British culture is sub-standard and only made tolerable if 'enriched' by other cultures. Isn't that racist? Would you say that of other cultures that they need 'enriching' with multiculturalism ? In the past I have noticed Sting trying to protect the identity and culture of tribes of the Amazon, surely Resident Leftie he's doing the wrong thing, why defend boring mono-cultureless, shouldn't they be 'enriched ' with multiculturalism? Or is it really about the racist anti English lefties that see no place for our culture and want it 'enriched' in oblivion with mass immigration and multiculturalism something George Orwell noted in 1941 Orwell when he wrote "England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality" Now why is that?

[Dontmakemelaugh in Oz Down Under]

Comments:
Sally Roberts: "There is no one 'English' race and it is nonsense to talk about an 'indigenous people' therefore. We are a glorious mix and always have been and that is to our benefit."

We have benefited from some immigration: especially from those possessing certain skills and the same cultural affinity; we will not benefit by pandering to and admitting those that wish to replace our culture, laws and religion with theirs, far from it.

"There is no one 'English' race and it is nonsense to talk about an 'indigenous people' therefore"

There is an Island named Great Britain predominantly inhabited by peoples known as English, Scots, Welsh and Irish with a basic common culture - a race of Caucasians (as opposed to the races of Negroids or Asians)
To suggest that those aforementioned nationalities are not the indigenous residents of Britain is beyond reason.

[Dewsbury Tory]

Hey resident leftie you want grow up and get into the real world. I am a Conservative and proud of it, I beleive Britan should when called upon in times of natural disaster, war, famine, earthquakes etc take our share of refugees, look after them, help re-build their countries etc Britain has always done its bit. I have nothing against immigrants who come here in controlled numbers to live, work and contribute, all I ask is that they fit in and respect the culture, customs and traditions of my own country (the host country). I expect the established muslim communities in Britain to do the same, many are trying and in Dewsbury there is a good, decent, progressive, moderate mulism constituency, but they are up against a hard core element who know they are untouchable and like things just the way they are. They want to have a community within a community, they want their own langauge, religious and cultural customs and laws and its not right.

For the record, Yorkshire Born, Yorkshire Bred, Irish, Scottish and English blood within our family and proud of it too!

[Deborah]

Yes, resident leftie...and of course those moslem women who are summoned to Sharia courts are all happy to be treated as second class citizens.

[Sarf Lunnon]

Re Sandy Jamieson at 12.15

Thank you for clarifying the point I was trying to indicate: the English are a lot more Celtic than previously thought.

Re resident leftie: yes, the cultural affinity of the Normans and English was very close (except the English were artistically and architecturally more advanced). After all, the spat between Harold and William 1 was precisely over the point that they both thought they were from the same stable (and indeed were related). The Norse Vikings were the cultural outsiders, which is why to this day there is a certain differentiation between their areas of the country and the English /Celtic.

[Sally Roberts]

Deborah @ 12:32 - I agree with you! I think 90% might be the case in some rural areas but does not represent most parts of London, let alone other conurbations. My own background reflects the following: Father's side - 4th generation English Jews who before that lived in Eastern France (round the Metz area) and Germany (Frankfurt). Mother's side - mainly Highland Scots originally from Wester Ross. Also a bit of Northern Irish thrown in (area round Antrim).

[Patricia]

What a flyweight Dave Cameron appeared to be in his interview with Jeff Randall last night on Sky News!

I felt terribly embarassed by his verbal fluff and realised that Mr Cameron has only a superficial grasp of many major problems.

[Dewsbury Tory]

Deborah is right resident leftie. The problem you have is that the more extreme elements of the Islamic faith are without doubt opposed to equality for women but bang on relentlessly about their own equality and rights, they are anti-semetic and homophobic and there is no room for either of these three sentiments in this country in my opinion.

[Angelo Basu]

"I have no problem with people of ethnic minorities coming to Britain, as long as they do not come in sufficient critical masses to form "communities", so long as they abandon the identity, mores, language, garb and religion of the countries from which they have come and so long as they do their utmost to make their offspring as indistinguishable from the indigenous population as possible.

I say this as a second generation immigrant myself, whose parents did exactly that."

I have a similar background to you then - I know that my mother was particularly insistent that she didn't want to live anywhere with a large population who shared our ethnicity (if she was going to be in Britain why should she and her children be held back by being forced to live according to the cultural norms of the country she'd left behind). That said, I don't think it is essential for assimilation to abandon every part of your ancestral culture. All that is needed is to see it for what it is, a part of your family history, but with your present and future being British.

Britishness, or Englishness, Welshness and Scottishness do exist. But, the (or a) failure of multiculturalism has been to forget them and not to promote them. Perhaps the challenge is to rethink those concepts in the light of Britain now being a country that, like America and Australia, is heavily influenced by immigration. Only the BNP would take us (or rather not me) back to a notion of Britain pre-immigration. That's not realistic or appealing (the process of implementing such a change would involve trampling so many important parts of long-held beliefs in fairness and justice that it would break the thing that it was seeking to protect) but it doesn't mean that we have to surrender to deeming every immigrant culture to require protection and promotion at the cost of the identity of the country. Elderly Italian Americans (etc) may still think of "the old country" and pass on some of its traditions to their children and grandchildren, but they are all Americans and consider themselves to be such because they appreciate that they chose to become Americans.

[Yorkshireman, Yorkshire]

Resident Leftie,

"One of the reasons that multiculturalism is so great is that the differences enrich our British culture" But a significant part of any countrys culture is influenced by religion and secular beliefs and then you go on to say

"No one is asking you to respect anyone else's religious beliefs". Really, well why does your party consistently try to accomodate Muslim beliefs eg Sharia Courts. What do you see the benefit of these being to a non english speaking muslim women suffering domestic abuse? What about the attempt to stifle free speech about religion that was introduced by labour and eventually defeated? Or the West Midlands police force who tried to prosecute Channel 4 Dispatches for their undercover mosque documentary?

"People assimilate when they are accepted. They adapt to British customs when people treat them with respect".
Back to the point I raised earlier - why should I respect anyone who thinks I should be a second class citizen. There are white muslims who believe this and non muslim asians that don't. Wheres the racism?

"It's their children who will be integrated, not the first generation migrants".

So how do you explain that in research conducted by Policy exchange around 66% of young muslims prefered sharia law and believed in death for apostasy as opposed to the older generation where it was around 22%. How is that a sign of improved integration?

Sharia law is timeless and Nulabour multi-culturalism won't change this.

What is your criteria for " too different"? Basically it's "I don't like the look of them."

Feel free to criticise me for what I haven't said. You're setting up a big straw man and landing some marvellous punches and I congratulate you on that. You're convincing yourself I'm being racist despite no evidence whatsoever. I have a strong suspicion that people like you are vocally projecting onto others the viewpoints that you despise in yourself

Basically, like you, I reject values that view women as less than men; believers as less than unbelievers; religions that try to censure legitimate criticism by running to the ever accomodating labour party; amputation of limbs for theft. Feel free to correct me if I've spoken for you on these issues....

By the way, do you support your leader in his campaign for "british jobs for british workers"? or Labour MP Frank Fields cross part campaign to restrict migration? What about Labour MP Phil Woolas strong comments
on restricting migration?

[Libbie Miller]

You can carry on swimming in the river of denial.. I'm actually quite amused how the pious try to convince yourselves!

Just for the record, I live in immigrant ghetto and it's not pleasant I can assure you!

[Adam]

dewsbury Tory - maybe you should get your MP and cllrs to a meeting and discuss some of this with them. there must be something that they can all get together and do and try and make things better. english classes for migrants would be a start.

[Sally Roberts]

"Elderly Italian Americans (etc) may still think of "the old country" and pass on some of its traditions to their children and grandchildren, but they are all Americans and consider themselves to be such because they appreciate that they chose to become Americans"

Very true Angelo Basu and this is also true of France where those granted French Citizenship have to become 100% French.

[Edward Huxley]

It`s me again. Still banging on about that boring subject, the European Union.

I promise not to mention this here again; for the last time, there is no point in arguing, immigration is controlled by Brussels, like it or not. I don`t like it.

[Dewsbury Tory]

Adam, the MP is the biggest problem. He sued a former local conservative councillor and the local newspaper for raising these very issues. If anyone suggest English classes etc they are all shouted down, I am afraid where I come from we are a riot waiting to happen and you will see some major civil unrest between commununities over the next few years.

[Yorkshireman, Yorkshire]

we had our first MP of Indian origin in 1892.
Resident Leftie.

And then our next one was Keith Vaz MP. A magnificent example of honest and probity in British politics. I'm sure, as a Labour supporter you must be really proud of Keith's "magnificent" contribution to British politics.

[UpNorthTheNow]

What success is he talking about?

How the indigenous Europeans have been disenfranchised and freedom of speech
curtailed or how we have millions of
islamic citizens who have fascism at the core of their religious beliefs.

Or what about the new EQUALITY bill
that Cameron remained silent about.
The 1 where its legal to discriminate against a white male in employment.

The only succss has been for the immigrants themselves and I cant blame them for wanting to live/work in the UK.

Its been a success for anti-white racists
just look at MOBO, black police officers association, black history month, etc...
or compare the coverage of racial murders in the uk. Whites are over represented in regards to such crime yet the media completely ignore such crimes yet Steven Laurence, etc.. is still on the news.
(Why demonise the white population??)

Oh yeah a great success for the indigenous
population well done Conservatives and well done Labour thank you for marginalising us
in OUR OWN COUNTRY.

[pp]

Oh the wonder of non-left blogs.

Differing view points, strongly held, openly expressed and considered - who knows may get some new ideas and solutions... or at least understand each other better.

Just the type of thing that terrifies the left - where anyone not expounding the 'official' line must be silenced (at least in public) - of course you don't have to beleive the official line nor follow it, you just have to expound it.

[Hugh Oxford]

You can ignore the plight of the ordinary man if you live in a nice traditional middle class area. You can preach to those same people about how much the recent immigrants have contributed but the truth is, they neither care or believe you.

When "diversity" was limited to places that have always been invisible on the cultural and political map - i.e. Northern working class areas, it didn't matter.

But we're all feeling it now.

There's been an awakening, and I put it something like this. Whenever in the past I've encountered a person who dressed or talked foreign or wore Islamic clothing, somewhere in my subconscious I believed they were a visitor. Why wouldn't I? I kept up this psychological denial for years.

Then one day it hit me. Suddenly, I realised that half the people I encounter walking down the street aren't British. But nor are they visitors. Our country has been slipping through our fingers and we've hardly noticed.

A question I ask myself every day when I walk down the street, and I see YET ANOTHER Muslim headscarf is "how did this happen?" How?

It's amazing. If the state wants to knock down all the buildings, they have to apply for planning permission. If they want to change the currency, they have to hold a referendum. But if they want to utterly transform our country linguistically, sartorially, culturally, religiously and ethnically, they just go ahead and do it.

I am NOT going to have my children growing up in this hellhole. I am NOT going to have my children feeling like just another identity group among many. This is their country, and I WILL fight for their right to it, and I WILL vote for ANY PARTY that assures them of it. I will NOT apologise for that. I am guilty of NOTHING other than simple patriotism, of elementary self defence, of basic self preservation, of protecting the future for my children and grandchildren, as others in the past have done for me.

[Sally Roberts]

Yorkshireman, apologies that I didn't address your point about a woman being regarded as less than a man and I will address it now.
I am totally and utterly opposed to this tenet of the Islamic faith and I am free to say that as I am not a Muslim and unlikely ever to become so. However, there are many moderate Muslims who reject this particular tenet as well - just as there are many practising Roman Catholics who use contraception! I think you are confusing the moderates with the fundamentalists and Islam with IslaMISM - Islam as a political tool. That is a distinction we must make very clearly. I have a number of Muslim friends but of them only one of the women wears a hijab (and she has only recently started to do so - I fear from pressure on the part of her family). I worry that one day if we do not make efforts to integrate the Muslim community (and Yes I appreciate how difficult this is - I as a woman and a Jew would hardly be able to set foot in a madrassa anyway...) we will find ourselves compelled to live by standards set by others rather than ourselves - that I will have to go out of my house with my hair covered. That is something I will never accept but ranting and bigotry is not the way forward. Setting out our standards clearly is.

[Adam]

He sued a former local conservative councillor and the local newspaper for raising these very issues.

he can't just sue for anything - there must be more to it than that. I still think you should take a more pro active view and do something. doing nothing is what led to the bradford and other riots. everyone became detached and communities became utterly polarised - and the rest is history.

[UpNorthTheNow]

Oh I forgot thanks for the no-go
areas that are for certain ethnic groups
only.
I can only compare this to ethnic cleansing.

If UK has always been so 'multi racial'
then why is this recent phenomenon.

Also why if you disagree with immigration and voice your concerns are you threatened with your job, union membership and persecuted politicaly.

Oh yeah big success ?

[Sally Roberts]

Adam I agree with you and I hope that the Dewsbury Tories select a good candidate who will be able to take them forward!

[Dewsbury Tory]

Adam, former councillor Jonathan Scott exposed the MP for his election tactics expoliting the muslim community. Jonathan Scott also annoyed the MP by speaking out like we are all doing on this site. Now Jonathan is not everybody's cup of tea and sadly he his no longer involved but he his a decent bloke when you get to know him and he fought the case which went to the Royal Courts in London two week libel trial and got a hung verdict and thank god he did because he spoke up for Freedom of Speech. There is no talking to the Labour muslim councillors or MP, last week they organised a rally for Gaza and to condemn the Israeli's that hardly anything to do with what is going locally. The they wonder why the BNP polled 5,000 votes in Dewsbury at the last general election. I despair, because Khizar Iqbal a local conservative councillor is a really good bloke and him and Jonathan Scott have done some great work bringing the two communities together but they keep getting knocked down by the lefties and the PC brigade.