"Gordon Brown bounce fades as Conservative return to huge poll lead"

That's not our effervescent headline but the one chosen by The Times.  Certainly an encouraging poll:

Within the detail of the poll there are clear signs that the Brown bounce is fading:

"Mr Brown and Mr Cameron are tied on 37 per cent over who is the right leader now to deal with the recession, though the Prime Minister had a 52 to 32 per cent edge only two months ago. Mr Cameron is now ahead by 43 to 31 per cent in leading Britain forward after the next election."

The more voters think of the future, the bigger the Tory majority is likely to be.

Comments

[louise weiss]

mum's eyes ,dad's nose ,Gordon Brown's debt

parent's must vote in the best interest of their children!

[Richard]

Every day is one day closer to ending this Labour Government nightmare.

Once in,Cameron can get 2 terms just putting the PSBR in balance,Labour will never be trusted again,the 70's now this, they will be finished with the British people.

[Onthejob]

Good News but one swallow doesn't make a summer. but going in the right direction at last again

[Jack Stone]

Louise. That`s if there children are not ill then with Cameron`s cuts it might not be such a sensible thing to do.

[Super Blue]

Populus is consistenly one of the least favourable pollsters so a 10% lead with them must be worth a lot more than with another pollster.

[Richard]

Jack Stone,

Would that be the ID CARDS=£15bn
The NHS Computer that dosn't work =£20bn

We would welcome them cuts thanks very much.

These are making the British people sick!

[Paul D]

10 points - not as 'huge' as last summer, but getting there certainly

[Matt Wright]

Jack. Cameron has said health will be ring fenced and grow at the same rate. Drop the Labour spin.

[Super Blue]

Every time Stone trolls, we go up in the polls.

Keep at it.

[Richard]

Jack Stone,

I thought you Labour folk loved the sick,with 5 million of them on incapacity,costing £18n per annum.

I think your on a loser there old son.

[Cleethorpes Rock]

In the same way the credit card bills hit the doormat as the Christmas hangover fades, so the British people are realising that Brown's 11 years of economic chickens are coming home to roost.

Roof fixed or not, the house that Gordon built is starting to fall down.

[Raj]

It is one poll, but not surprising with the New Year's blues as they are. Brown couldn't possibly hope that people would indefinitely buy his nonsense about our ills all being of foreign origin.

[Mr Angry]

Jack Stone; Of course Labour love the poor, that's why whenever they are in power they make more of them!

[Philip]

Yes 10 points ahead is not the same as 20+ points ahead in the summer and moving in the right direction. Perhaps comparing a grim future of the next generation ladened with debt with a future of financial responsibility and sensible measures to help businesses keep going (and thus employ people), is working. Perhaps people realising the folly of living beyond our means stacking up debt and problems for the future, as Labour is doing.

A slogan could be

The future doesn't have to be grim

Or

Labour isn't working
Again

[T. England]

Aren’t people now getting over the initial shock of the credit crunch hitting us & as they come back to their senses & the pain of the recession starts to kick in they remember how much they were beginning to dislike Brown & the Labour party, & after all, who needs him or them now?
Brown obviously hasn’t got a silver bullet to end the recession or he’d fired it by now, the shots he has fired so far have just been blanks, & as for the rest of the Labour party, they just seem as impotent as him.

As Browns cape slips off & more people see his underpants are twisted they realise they’ve been duped & it’s only tricks making him look good, so if Brown doesn’t have the public believing he’s some kind of financial super hero what does he have going for him?
He doesn’t have looks, personality, charm or wit & can’t even talk smooth so it’s quite understandable that he & his sad party are on their way down now isn’t it?

[meli]

Excellent news :D

[dcj]

Mr Stone is a shining example of Labour culture. I quote "That`s if +there+(sic) children are not ill then with Cameron`s cuts...."

Obviously more money needed for schools, I think, Mr Stone - or perhaps we could just cut out the Lefty teachers who don't know THEIR grammar....

[Oli England]

Recession is when your neighbour loses their job.

Depression is when you lose your lob.

Recovery is when Gordon loses his job.

The message is getting through... Gordon's debt must be a future bomb for someone...

[DJT]

It really shows the flaw in British democracy that a 10 point lead like this would only leave us with a majority of 30ish!

I bet if labour had a lead of 10 points they would be looking at a majority more than double that.

Can anyone confirm or estimate that?

[Yarmouth Tory]

"Can anyone confirm or estimate that?"

DJT it would not double the lead, I think a straight reversal in percentages between labour and the tories would give them a massive majority of between 130 and 150 at a guess.

I think the boundary commision have some answering to do with regards to this with the disparity in seat sizes between the south and north. It also shows though how important it is for us to be stronger outside of the southern regions.

[Gloy Plopwell]

Only a temporary bilp. ok, I had hoped Lib dems would have over-taken Labour by now, but that will happen soon. By the end of the year, will have crossed over the Tories aswell, with stupendous momentum! Lib Dems have all the answers, and clear policies. There's still time for an overal Lib Dem majority of 50 in May 2010.

[AJJM]

Guys, this is just one poll. I wasn't convinced about the Brown bounce until it was consistent in the polls. We need to see what the others polls are saying.

[eugene]

Nice one!

Just need to see Labour go right back to where they belong now...about 19%- it is the very most they deserve.

[Robert Eve]

Overall Lib Dem majority - YOU WISH!!

[erica]

Jack Stone, I think you mean 'their'.

[erica]

Apologies to dcj@ 22.01 who had already made my point.

[Richard]

LIB DEMS!!

There as likely to form the next Government as,Vince Cable is to be asked a hard qustion on the BBC.

I.E:

BBC:do you think we should have gone in the Euro Vince?(notice first name terms)
A:yes in the first wave.

10 mins later SKY NEWS.

SKY:do you applaud the BOE for cutting interest rates.
A:Cable-yes it was essential.

Someone needs to tell Cable,we wouldn't have a BOE if we were in he Euro.

Typical wishy washy Lib Dems,they never change,always giving us a laugh.

[Richard]

On a serious point,TACTICAL VOTING,58% of people think it is time for a change in Government,i think this should be discussed more.

Remember 1997.

[A Cllr]

I notice that some of the other trolls are keeping quiet. Perhaps Jack should join them?

[Groucho]

And this WITHOUT having KC on the front bench!
Good news all round.

[Groucho]

And the BBC News censor has struck on the website!

[Teck]

"Louise. That`s if there children are not ill then with Cameron`s cuts it might not be such a sensible thing to do."

Posted by: Jack Stone | January 12, 2009 at 20:44

What a load of inarticulate garbage!

Labour can only think of cuts being applied to services, while investment to them means creating bigger and more ponderous administration.

[TomTom]

"Louise. That`s if there children are not ill then with Cameron`s cuts it might not be such a sensible thing to do."

You really should learn about the NHS. Much of the budget is going on KPMG and PFI with HSBC Infrastructure and Norwich Union making a fortune out of property development. Frontline healthcare is short of funding.

Labour has been a real friend to bankers and construction firms buying up NHS real estate to leverage-lease facilities back to the NHS so City firms can make a killing through tax havens in Jersey and Cayman Islands.

Brown is a master of enriching bankers whether on the Tube, or in PFI on Schools and Hospitals - taxpayers now fund banks so banks can fund hospitals through tax havens. Just why did HBOS sell of its train leasing business to Deutsche Bank ? Who did RBS sell its train leasing business to ?

Funny how British infrastructure was owned by British banks who now need Government funding but first sell off British infrastructure to German and Australian banks.

That is Gordon Brown - Spendthrift & Stupid

[Dave Williams]

The mending the roof line doesn't do justice to the truth. When you arrive at a house and find someone up on the rof, they might be finishing off building, or fixing it. It could just be that they are stealing the slates.

[Sally Roberts]

What is such good news about this is that Brown has now blown his "Super Gordon" tactic - he has no more rabbits to bring out of the hat and now the only way for him is down and out. Bring it on!

[Tapestry]

Debt is shit. Shit is Brown. Why vote for it? Apparently 33% of Britons still intend to.

[Onthejob]

I do love Gloyt plopwells posts always brighten up my morning with his unfounded optimism

[anonish]

this is no more than 1 poll, although a good one. let's see the front bench get out there & hit the labour party hard on the economy and get that lead up.

i guess when the post xmas credit card bills hit the doormats soon & even more people lose their jobs, even more shops on the high street are shut the lead will go up, the only problem is we will take over a bankrupt nation with a disaster to sort out.

[Tim Montgomerie]

Language Tapestry! There'll be no second warning.

[Icarus]

Or as the Telegraph has it “David Cameron’s feeble thinking leaves Tories at risk of
destruction”

http://tinyurl.com/9bkh3c

[Malcolm Dunn]

The reason they do Tapestry is that Labour has built an effective client state . Their core/tribal vote is probably 30% as is ours.

[Oberon Houston]

Jack, its probably a couple of years now since I first read your posts on this site, and I've got to say there is a marked drop in their quality. If you want to make a point about public funding of the health service thats good, but to say the Tories get out of bed in the morning with the objective of making babies ill is silly. Up you game a bit - and then we can spar properly.

ps - although most on this site see you as a Labout Troll, I think you are interested in conservatism, but cannot get over the Socialist brain washing that went on from birth - was it the parents and school?

[pp]

Thats more like it!

I think the reason labour have been doing so well in the polls in not that they are liked - it is just the electorate reserving judgement (why pass jusgement on (say) the VAT cut, when you can wait and see the out come) - had they been forced to decide (i.e. by a general election) I think the results would be more like those above.

Now the failure of Gordon can be seen as can his panicked stealing of policies from the 'novice' - having said that the novice didn't have any...

However as time has moved on, the dithering and late adoption and ham-fisted execution do more and more (avoidable!) damage.

btw: Don't let trolls set the agenda! I never meet anyone in person who has a good word to say about Brown - they only appear on line...

[pp]

From the 'Q&A' link on the boundaries commission website (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pbc/default.asp)

Why do they do it?

The main reason is to ensure that every constituency has about the same number of electors so that everyone’s vote carries the same weight in a general election.

It a 10% labour majority gives a 140 seat majority, and a 10% tory majority gives a 30 seat majority - then it would appear that the boundary comission are not doing their job.

Why hasn't the conservative party complained? I'd do it, but wouldn't know where to start...

[Winston C]

This Poll is exactly on the lines that I expected.It begins to give an answer to all of those who were panicking about the mythical Brown bounce.

Try not to be drawn into meaningless arguements with Labour trolls.They are making more and more use of their spin machine but the electorate has rumbled them and even their traditional voter feels let down and betrayed.Labour are finished.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: dcj | January 12, 2009 at 22:01
Obviously more money needed for schools, I think, Mr Stone - or perhaps we could just cut out the Lefty teachers who don't know THEIR grammar....

1/10

You are a hypocrite. Your post is a poorly worded sentence fragment. For example, you are missing a comma after "Obviously", and an ellipsis is represented by three, not four dots. I never criticise grammar except in the case of those who criticise others' grammar, as we all make mistakes, even editors!

As to the substantial point of the thread; as predicted, Cameron is on his way to a decent majority. We'll just be beginning to recover from the recession after Cameron gets in, which will give him a free hand to do pretty much what he wants.

[CCTV]

I think, Mr Stone - or perhaps we could just cut out the Lefty teachers who don't know THEIR grammar....

Jack Stone is not a teacher - he is Sales

[Julian L Hawksworth]

A very encouraging poll lead! The electorate are desperate for change in this country, rather than "more of the same" socialist dogma.

Increasingly, Labour cannot be trusted. Nor do they take any genuine responsibility, for their numerous mistakes. Brown is proving to be no match for David Cameron!

[Slim Jim]

Dave Williams @ 07:39 - I think that theme could be developed - Brown not only failed to fix the roof while the sun was shining - he stripped the lead off it too!

[Ian]

I suspect that the reduction in the Brown share of the poll might be more to do with the obvious uncoupling between various government departments and the public's realisation of the government's basic incompetence as evidenced by barrages of generally meaningless and less than credible statistics being trotted out at every opportunity.

Additionally, just about all minister's pronouncements, or answers to perfectly reasonable questions, are preceded by 'let me be clear about this...' or 'what the public really need to understand is...' or 'I have been listening to people up and down the country what they want is...'. These are actually quite insulting to the target audience because it presupposes that they have no opinion or the wrong view about a particular topic. Generally it serves to underline the huge gap betwen the 'westminster village' view of things and that of the general population. Conservatives do it too.

To increase the gap between Brown & Co, Conservatives must have even more respect for the electorate who are all having a tough time and don't need a financially feather-bedded politician to tell them what they should be thinking and feeling. They know and they don't like it. All statements need to recognise that reality to avoid falling into the hole that Labour is digging for itself.

[dcj]

Oh dear. I seem to have touched one of Resident Leftie's nerves. I am happy to discuss grammar with him or her were he or she to be really interested (and I am one of the few people who still use the subjunctive to indicate a conditional) but if he or she cannot see the difference between a disputable point over a comma and a major error over the wrong homonym then there is little point in doing so. This is typical New Labour: after ten years of ensuring continuous decline in schools not only can they not accept their errors being pointed out but they do not realise how important the subject is.

Further, it seems to me that Resident Leftie (who, being a special person, place or thing, deserves capitalisation) has, like most of that ilk, undergone amputation of the sense of humour.

[gezmond007]

So What happens next time the polls narrow , all this Labour are finished rubbish is just that, rubbish !

The Conservatives need to be where they were last summer , at least twenty points ahead on a regular basis. When the election campaign begins history shows that the government always narrow the gap in any lead the opposition might have .

There's a long, long, way to go with everything to play for , I predict even the Lib Dem vote will go up.

A lot of people will benefit from the interest rate cuts , personally my tracker morgage has gone down £450 per month and with inflation, petrol, foodstuffs,clothes etc many people will be better off . Even savers who are suffering with poor returns from their investments will save from the general downturn in prices.

The governments biggest problem is the banks and the refusal to lend money to business which is causing unemployment to surge which will create a lot of misery .

They have to get their finger out and make them play their part after all the taxpayer saved them so they have a duty to save us.

this government still have plenty of time to save themselves and the country. The problem Cameron is up against is not enough policies being put to the electorate.

[pp]

gezmond007

your mortgage may be down £450 a month, but how much has your house gone down in value?

Not something our lords and masters need worry about http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23618111-details/So+how+did+Mandy+buy+his+%C2%A32.5+million+Regency+villa/article.do - they feel our pain you know...

[bexie]

Jack Stone | January 12, 2009 at 20:44

It will just be the ZaNuLab poncers, living at the public trough, who will have a major dose of indegestion when they have to shop at Aldi rather than Fortnums on their new adjusted status.

I am sure the teachers and nurses on the other hand will just be fine. There maybe a few more after a few Krug Socialist poncer salaries are taken out of the equation

[bexie]

apologies for spelling, I must have been at a state skool

[StevenAdams]

Gezmond007,

a few things to note:

1. The Cons haven't given up their lead since last summer, despite the flight to 'better the devil you know' during the onset of the recession. Moreover, despite the extensive coverage of Gordon taking 'action' in this 'global' crisis, he hasn't been able to more than bring it within about 4-5 points (multi-poll average). Furthermore, then Conservative support has remained on or above 40% the whole way – a significant marker and sign of 'hard' support.

2. It took MONTHS for Gordon to whittle down to that -5 poll deficit, but only weeks for the Conservatives to spring back to 10% (I believe on their way back to 20%)

3. History actually DOESN'T show that governments benefit during election campaigns... it shows that CONSERVATIVES benefit during election campaigns. The glitch is that the Conservatives have spent the majority of the past 100 years in power, making it a very hard issue to prove one way or t'other.

4. The very economic issue you refer to (bank credit) is the very issue that the Cons are addressing with the latest policy announcement (Bank Loan Guarantees). Moreover, the 'pay to employ' policy was announced by the Cons in 2008 and adopted by Labour in 2009. Abolishing expensive projects such as the NHS 'spine', ID Cards, various QUANGOs (such as the network of regional assemblies) is just one approach toward funding a number of tax cuts and freezes (such as Council Tax and NI for SMEs)........... is this tiny sample the policies you were referring to?

[resident leftie]

Posted by: dcj | January 13, 2009 at 12:52

Oh dear. I seem to have touched one of Resident Leftie's nerves.

Yes, you have - I can't abide hypocrisy. You don't like it when the boot is on the other foot, and you completely missed my point.

You stooped to criticising someone's spelling and grammar rather than their substantive point.

[basementcat]

This is what those in economic circles would refer to as a dead cat bounce.

[gezmond007]

gezmond007

your mortgage may be down £450 a month, but how much has your house gone down in value?

Not something our lords and masters need worry about http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23618111-details/So+how+did+Mandy+buy+his+%C2%A32.5+million+Regency+villa/article.do - they feel our pain you know...
Posted by: pp | January 13, 2009 at 13:16

Actually it,s gone down about 10% , i recently had it valued but this means nothing really when you think about it because other properties are the same if you want to move .

Negative equity will affect people who bought houses that they could not afford and also people who have massive bills to pay on credit cards will struggle but you can't blame the government for this . People should only spend what they can afford , no one forced them to spend , spend , spend !

3. History actually DOESN'T show that governments benefit during election campaigns... it shows that CONSERVATIVES benefit during election campaigns. The glitch is that the Conservatives have spent the majority of the past 100 years in power, making it a very hard issue to prove one way or t'other.

Posted by: StevenAdams | January 13, 2009 at 14:14

Is that why the Tories have lost three elections in a row and if they don't come out with something new it will be Four !

[Labour Student]

Humm, I wouldn't get too excited about this lads; just as I didn't get too excited about closing the gap on your lot a couple of months ago. Polls come and polls go, and this is just one poll. If a sucession of polls over the next few months show you pulling away, then I'd be seriously worried, but one swollow dosn't make a summer.

Still its an intresting poll, and conforms to the usual post-new year poll dip pattern that affects governments. TBH I'm suprised that it hasn't moved more, with the recession beginning to hit the high streets, though finacially the worst is over. I'd expect us to lose a few more points over the next 2 months and begin to regain ground over the summer. This election will be close and, though I don't expect us too win, it will be tighter than some on here are predicting.

[Sam Hurst (Bury)]

I think it's time CH insisted on subscriptions to this website now because the site, and its burgeoning popularity, is attracting swarms of non-Conservatives ridiculing the party and undermining the integrity of this site as a self-styled 'grassroots' hub, when in fact a lot of opinion is that of Labour activists, but Labour trolls instead.

It is especially alarming when quality newspapers, when refering to CH talk about the opinions expressed by it's readership, when often they might not even be card carriers.

[Diswiss]

GB is like a dung-beetle:up to his eyes in
it and loving every minute of it.

Has anyone noticed how really aggressive
Dermot from Sky news gets when ever
interviewing a member of the Tory party?

[gezmond007]

So Sam , you think that only card carrying Conservatives should be allowed to debate on this site .

You can talk to each other and say how wonderful Dave and Ossie are doing . Sounds very boring also how then do you convert people who are not Tories to your way of thinking, if you wont communicate with them .

Is that Democracy , sounds like the old Soviet Union to me !

[Labour Student]

Are non-conservatives not allowed to have their say then? Besides, just look at the swarms of Tory trolls that have invaded the Labour blogs spouting rubbish. I can understand wanting to stop trolls but if they aren’t being offensive/spamming rubbish then I would think they have a right to express their opinion. Isn’t the whole point of blogging to allow people to express their views?

[rugfish]

According to a poll in todays Times, people couldn't give a stuff about the recession either. ( Apparently )

[StevenAdams]

Ye gads you're a dimwit, Gezmond.

Firstly, is "Is that why the Tories have lost three elections in a row and if they don't come out with something new it will be Four" seriously the best response to the list of policies (both distinct and subsequently stolen) I highlighted, to the shortcomings in your 'govt's always benefit in elections' hope, or the crassness of your evaluation of the polls? Really? And then you compare a member-only website idea as - and this is very, very funny and ironic - being like the Soviet Union...?????

Good Lord; had I realised, I wouldn't have engaged in debate.

[James T]

Robert Eve

You metion in one of your posts:

"Overall Lib Dem majority - YOU WISH!!"

Thats as maybe. But it is not totally off of the mark.

If there is a hung Parliament, which in the scheme of things seems most likely despite this latest Populus poll then the Conservatives will have to form a Coalition with the Lib Dems or at the very least a Minority Government.

Either way it would not last 5 minutes let alone 5 years. Except in delusional Tory minds!

In any case Cameron criticises Gordon Browns Government Debt and argues for lower Government spending and lower Government Debt whilst at the same time criticising the Government for not spending enough on Loan Guarantees by Banks to small businesses, a Council tax freeze, Tax breaks for companies etc.. This means higher Government spending.

I forgot their Lower Spending message is another classic example of "New Tory" spin.

Obviously the Tories need to Dump Spin and hire some competent Accountants. Their sums simply do not add up and their arguments are highly inconsistent.

Come on you can do better than this. Oh, on second thoughts nahh!

[James T]

Sam Hurst (Bury)

You mention in your last post:

"I think it's time CH insisted on subscriptions to this website now because the site, and its burgeoning popularity, is attracting swarms of non-Conservatives ridiculing the party and undermining the integrity of this site as a self-styled 'grassroots' hub, when in fact a lot of opinion is that of Labour activists, but Labour trolls instead.

It is especially alarming when quality newspapers, when refering to CH talk about the opinions expressed by it's readership, when often they might not even be card carriers."

I say welcome to the Technological age free speech and debate!

Besides, Conservatives often accuse Labour supporters of being Communists which is total nonesense anyway. Your suggestion of a "Membership Only" website and your argument in favour of rooting out non-Conservatives sounds pretty much like a Soviet Union/ Stalinist/ One Party state ideal. Come on now you are supposed to be a Tory are you not???

In any case enough Conservatives spew stuff on Labour Websites.

Ah but then it is one rule for the Tories and another rule for everyone else isnt it.

Tories dont half like getting funny when they are rattled. They know that they should be doing far and away better than they are doing at the moment.

They are a long long way away from "Sealing the Deal" with the electorate. Get used to it!!

[Winston C]

The problem Brown has is simple.His freudian slip at PMQ's before Xmas betrays his mindset.He really does believe he has saved the world.The facts are however that nothing he has done has had any real effect on the economy except for the crippling effects of debt which will hit us as the world economy begins to recover.

The real measure of Brown's stewardship of our economy can be tracked by looking at the debasing of our currency.This tells us exactly what the world feels about our medium to long term prospects.I stand by my statement Labour are finished.They can promise no change and with them economic decline would be as inevitable as night following day.

[dcj]

Resident Leftie @ 14.45

"Yes, you have - I can't abide hypocrisy. You don't like it when the boot is on the other foot, and you completely missed my point.

You stooped to criticising someone's spelling and grammar rather than their substantive point."

hypocrisy noun [U]: when someone pretends to believe something that they do not really believe or that is the opposite of what they do or say at another time:

So how am I guilty of hypocricy? I might be guilty of rudeness, but is it rude to point out when a very basic mistake is made in what is supposed to be a serious comment? Mr Stone was pointing out that Government spending is good: I was trying to point out that it seems on the evidence of the post perhaps some of the money spent on education is wasted. There might be a case for Mr Stone to feel offended - and if I have offended him I ask his pardon for the "rough and tumble" of debate - but it's not for a Labour troll to intervene on this point. But seeing that you have intervened (and I apologise for starting the sentence with a conjunction) perhaps you ought to understand the definition of hypocricy before levelling charges of its commission.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: dcj | January 13, 2009 at 16:40
So how am I guilty of hypocricy?

Hypocrisy, in this context, is a refusal to "...apply to ourselves the same standards we apply to others."

You criticised a simple error of spelling instead of addressing his substantive point, and ironically, your own badly worded post was riddled with grammatical errors.

Incidentally, you spelt hypocrisy incorrectly. You might want to look up "irony" in the dictionary, too, while you are there.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: dcj | January 13, 2009 at 16:40

Oh, and it's a homophone, not a homonym. Under which regime were you educated?

[stentorian cobblers]

Resident Leftie is quite right to criticise you, dcj. For one thing, if you're going to lay into any amateur writer, freely communicating his or her point of view, on the basis of his/her grammatical and/or typographical and/or syntactical shortcomings you had better make darn sure you are word perfect. You run the risk of looking pretty foolish otherwise. I fear you ran that risk and...

And Risident Leftie is therefore totally right when he/she refers the "substantive point" as the thing always to try to target, even if it isn't particularly well-expressed.

Sound advice, that.

[dcj]

homonym noun [C]
a word that sounds the same or is spelled the same as another word but has a different meaning.

This is the identical definition to "homophone".

Apology, Resident Leftie?

In answer to the other writer's comment, I would suggest that there is a difference between typing errors or minor spelling mistakes (and I plead guilty to the former) minor (debatable) errors, and major mistakes. The difference between "there" and "their" is, if I recall correctly, first-form or even primary school material.

As I have said, if Mr Stone has taken offence then I am happy to apologise to him. He is a frequent poster: I read his postings with great interest (though usually with intense disagreement) and I hope he will accept that my comment was made without malice.

May I suggest that we regard this matter as closed now? I am happy to carry on the discussion on grammar and manners with Resident Leftie, or anyone else, but I would suggest that to continue our bickering in this forum would be a little boring for others, as well as being off the supposed subject. I am happy to supply a private e-mail if this would be helpful.

[Cleethorpes Rock]

Can we engage on the issues, please, rather than picking one-another up on their grammar? None of us are (is?) perfect and it seems some people still think they're school prefects.

I've no problem with Labour supporters coming on here, though the ones who make the most note-worthy contributions seem to declare themselves (resident leftie, Northern Monkey, Labour Student) as opponents. If we want a mutual admiration society rather than an honest forum for debate, let's all go down to our Cons Clubs or Labour Clubs and do it there, rather than bore those of us who want a good argument!

[Sam Hurst (Bury)]

James T @ 16.16

Definitely take your point about Tories vs Stalinists.

My point was, there are too few genuine Conservatives on this site debating about Con policy when in fact they're Labour trolls benignly attacking the party's standing in the polls, pledges, etc, guised as Tories.

I agree though we're much more open and democratic than our governing counterparts.

[James Robinson]

Your school prefects corrected your grammar? Surely that should have been the preserve of teachers.

[James Thurston]

Winston C

You say:

"The problem Brown has is simple.His freudian slip at PMQ's before Xmas betrays his mindset.He really does believe he has saved the world.The facts are however that nothing he has done has had any real effect on the economy except for the crippling effects of debt which will hit us as the world economy begins to recover.

The real measure of Brown's stewardship of our economy can be tracked by looking at the debasing of our currency.This tells us exactly what the world feels about our medium to long term prospects.I stand by my statement Labour are finished.They can promise no change and with them economic decline would be as inevitable as night following day."

It is patently clear that you have a selective interpretation of political history.

Firstly it was under Margaret Thatchers Conservatives that this dire economic mess can be attributed to.

It was the Conservatives who, between 1979 and 1997 when in power established a Free Market Fundamentalist Orthodoxy/ Consensus.

It was them who fostered an environment where Market Forces were increasingly allowed to "Let Rip". They deregulated the City, argued for Light Touch Regulation, encouraged overt consumerism and greed.

The Public Services were sold off to the lowest bidder under the false pretense of a "Shareholder Democracy", something that never really materialised. Most shares on the Stockmarket are now predominantly in the hands of Institutional Investors. The number of individuals in posession of shares is small. In any case given the severe collapse of the Global Money markets and the Financial System shares have become severely devalued.

A consumer and Credit/ Debt boom was therefore firmly established and was fuelled substantially with the sale of Council Housing and has now resulted in a chronic housing crisis.

It is fair to say that some, but only some of the blame can be placed at the door of the Labour Government they are in Government after all. However, it is obvious that there was a desperate need for a change of Government in 1997. Labour had no choice but to accept the "New Right" Orthodoxy the Conservatives established while in Government.

It is my fundamental belief that the Labour Party had to do this. Now the Conservative Party "New Right" philosophy has been revealed well and truly for what it is. A monumental Con and an unmitigated disater. It is this Philosophy and NOT the Labour Party which is finished no matter what Conservatives may wish to believe.

The Labour Government has achieved many things:

The Minimum Wage - which the Tories decried as a severe threat to jobs whicch was way off beam.

New Schools and Hospitals - an amazing feat given the decrepit buildings inherited from the Conservatives.

Excellent Support for the Unemployed - the New Deal, especially the Pathways Programme which are a personalised service.

Free Bus Travel for Pensioners.

Sure Start - an initiative which in my local area is claimed by local Tories as a success of their making.

And many others.

However, I feel that the Private Sector ethos and principles have infiltrated the Public and Third Sectors to damaging effect. A far more pragmatic approach needs to be taken.

It is an unmistakable fact that the Conservatives have reverted to their true self: Thatcherite Conservatism. An outmoded and now fully discredited philosophy.

It is this reality that, for the reasons outlined above, means that if elected at the next General Election all the Conservatives can promise is no change and with it further economic decline would be as inevitable as night following day.

Conservatives will have to accept the harsh reality - for them - that if not in the short but in the longer term it will be Labour and NOT the Conservatives that will represent true and real change and who will prosper in the " New Political Age" sweeping not only Britain but the Globe too.

[Super Blue]

CleethorpesRock,

That is a very good point. Soi-disant non-Conservatives are pleasant to debate with because they recognise Labour's flaws. Trolls, however, are just wasting everyone's time, including their own.

[James T]

Sam Hurst (Bury)

In your last post you wrote:

"My point was, there are too few genuine Conservatives on this site debating about Con policy when in fact they're Labour trolls benignly attacking the party's standing in the polls, pledges, etc, guised as Tories."

Calling opponents names such as "Trolls" is utterly infantile as is your concern for them attacking the Conservative Party. Attacking your opponents in reasoned fashion regardless of which side of the political fence you sit on is a central feature of Politics whether we like it or not. Get used to it!

[Tim Montgomerie]

I am very bored of those people who use comment after comment to accuse other people of being trolls. You have been warned!!

[Andrew S]

This whole thread has descended into a war over grammar.

[StevenAdams]

James Thurst... the irony of you opening up that steaming coil of a post with the words: "It is patently clear that you have a selective interpretation of political history" is...well... rich, to say the very least.

Honestly, where on earth do you get 'outmoded and discredited'? Have you ever heard of the winter of discontent? The state of the nation when Margaret Thatcher took over was utterly, utterly diabolical. Labour totally destroyed this country in the '70's, and it took Maggie's (albeit hard-headed) reforms to put it right. In fact, even your illustrious leader (and predecessor) have acceded to the correctness of many of MT's reforms.

Moreover, the exchequer that Labour took over in 1997 after five years of untrammelled growth is debatably the healthiest of any incoming government. This stinking misery of a government took a golden gift, taxed our pensions and wages to hell and back and spanked the lot. In the meanwhile it fostered a culture of reliance and irresponsibility, took us to war on false pretences and reduced parliament to some sort of glorified legislative-PR response to whatever headlines Alastair Campbell was worrying most about.

My Aunty Ethel could've made a better job of the so-called achievements you've highlighted given the money that was available, but the measure of the man is now becoming clear, as the imprudence and incompetence of Gordon et al becomes immediately clear for all to see.

One final note: why couldn't Gordon have discovered the word 'global' when international economies were booming...

[Winston C]

It is interesting to read James Thurston's comment.Apparently all our current ills are down to the 18 year period of Conservative government between 1979 and 1997.Good luck with selling that pup!

I will not dignify your arguements with a reposte relating to your perception of history ,warped though it is but would advise you too set before the electorate the change that Labour will be.

Will our streets be safer? will social mobility rocket? will poverty be extinguished as you claimed and if so how? will our people have any money for old age?will our children be adequately protected?and will our hospitals ever be clean?

You have 12 years.You have failed.People know it you have no answers go now!

[resident leftie]

stentorian cobblers summed it up my view far better than I did, so thank him or her for that.

This is my final word, provided for information rather than to win a point:

Posted by: dcj | January 13, 2009 at 19:17
homonym noun [C]
a word that sounds the same or is spelled the same as another word but has a different meaning.

This is the identical definition to "homophone".

A homonym is spelt the same and sounds the same but has a different meaning to another word. "Left" and "bear" are examples. A homophone sounds the same, is spelt differently, but has a different meaning, for example "there" and "their." I have a particular susceptibility to the latter.

I apologise for diverting the thread, and will rein in the horses of grammatical purity, and set loose the dogs of reasoned debate!

[casual reader]

Go on, then. Reason and debate the government out of the corner they're in.

As far as I can tell - as a non card-carrier (!) - all the convincing points on this thread have come from people denigrating Labour's mismanagement of the country (StevenAdams above provides an excellent example) and suggesting, not unreasonably, that the poll reflects a growing awareness in the population at large of that mismanagement. All the diversion, obfuscation and fact-free hot air seems to have come from folks intent on countering that view.

I'd be interested to see a reasoned defence, for the novelty value if nothing else.