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Three reasons to leave the EU and be BETTER OFF OUT.

Even now,having left the top job,if a UK Bank Account is unearthed for Bertie Ahern the political class in Ireland will be totally discredited and non delivery of Lisbon will be certain.Clues so far Manchester and NatWest.

There would have been no second vote if the Irish had voted 'yes' so this is clearly an insult to the Irish people and democracy as a whole.

What a moment for Cameron to stand up and slam this blatant anti-democratic approach and to pledge a referendum on the LT whether or not it has been ratified.

What chance do we have of any Front Bench Tory criticising the EU on this?

How can we believe a word Cameron says on the EU if he can simply turn a blind eye to blatant bullying of a nation to get the 'right' result?


The climate change failure could/should be seen as a good thing. Perhaps someone will see sense and abandon the nonesense.

I welcome William's comments but must differ about the eu when he says it is increasingly undemocratic. It is not , never has been and has no intention of becoming democratic.

As for listening to people the eu only listens in order to find a way to subvert democratically expressed opinions. Reminds me of the old adage "when I want your opinion I'll give it to you!"

RE: Splintering

Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.
Leo Tolstoy

In the same way - there are so many different thing to dislike about the EU that getting critical mass on any particular sceptic agenda is difficult. That is also the strength of the 'completely out' movement - united behind a single message, all unhappy in the same way!

I think the top of the tory party really needs to sort out where is is poitioned on referenda and direct public participation (and localism) - creating a real policy rather than the current ad-hoc approach.

It would be a shame to end up in the land of 'only opposition parties support referenda' or 'no party in power is eurosceptic'...

Eh Chad? Read Hague's words! Do you think that his view is not the view of the whole front bench?

This is worth noting from Nigel Farage re Libertas;

"The UKIP position is that though this may confuse people this is in reality going to be a problem for David Cameron and the Conservative Party. Mr. Ganley's views are very similar to those of Mr. Cameron. They believe that reform from within the EU is possible. We of course know that this is not the case and that we have to leave the political union and negotiate a free trade agreement. So, Libertas as I understand it, would be campaigning for staying inside the EU and negotiating from that position of weakness. As you know this is completely different to our long held position. Which is that we must withdraw for that will be the position of strength from which we can decide our own way.

Remember this, no one listened to the Dutch about the Constitution, no one listened to the French. No one is listening to the Irish now over the Lisbon Treaty. Anyone trying to reform from within will simply be ignored again which is why we have to "

There can surely be no reason why David Cameron cannot announce a policy to give a referendum to the British people or to say we will not endorse it.

Parliament approved the treaty on the basis that Ireland would approve it, so parliament should respect the terms at the time it was deliberated.

If unanimous decision making along with the democratic decision of an electorate are to be overridden, ignored or bargained with so as to fundamentally change the basis on which our parliament gave its decision, then to proceed without re-visiting it would give it even less legitimacy than it has now.

If it continues to go ahead without the expressed wish of the British people then our own parliament will lack legitimacy. Our parliament would be like a festering carbuncle on the nation and if that is the case then it should be amputated.

"no"
adv.
1. Used to express refusal, denial, disbelief, emphasis, or disagreement: No, I'm not going. No, you're wrong.
2. Not at all; not by any degree. Often used with the comparative: no better; no more.
3. Not: whether or no.
n. pl. noes (nz)
1. A negative response; a denial or refusal: The proposal produced only noes.
2. A negative vote or voter.
interj.
Used to express strong refusal, doubt, or disbelief."

Erm guess that needs ameding now!

On a separate note, am running a petition on the Damien Green arrest. Any support would be much appreciated.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Lenthall/#detail

What is this weird UK obsession with the idea that the Euro is on the verge of collapse? Fair enough, that's what you'd like, but it just is not the case. I remember Black Wednesday, and the Euro has protected us (Ireland) from an Iceland style currency meltdown. Even Libertas are in favour of the Euro!

"Read Hague's words! Do you think that his view is not the view of the whole front bench?"

No.

Still waiting for the transcript of Cameron's quiet meeting with Barroso that ConHome requested.

Still waiting for EPP withdrawal.

Still waiting for a post-LT policy.


If the Irish are to be given the chance, after due consideration, to deliver the "right" vote, will all the countries that voted "Yes" now have a second chance to reconsider that verdict?

A strong argument against joining the euro is to be found in the way that the BoE is currently adjusting our base rate which is out of sync with the ECB's.

As the different European governments struggle with their different, albeit related, economic problems, the inability of sovereign powers to take the measures appropriate to their own particular situations will become apparent.
This is when the failings of a common currency start to show.. big time.

The people of Ireland and the UK can't now be fed the line that being in the EU is a part of being prosperous and secure. That claim has been falsified.

It is good that William Hague does not think that a second referendum in Ireland is in the spirit of democracy.

As the editor says, it would be an excellent thing if the Eurosceptic / anti-EU viewpoint was represented by one political party.

Thank god the nonsense about climate change is being deferred. If anyone cares to look at the global temperature behaviour they will see that the average temperature has actually been falling for 10 years and is likely to show a big fall this year.

Henry. God god that`s all the Tories need the loney tunes of UKIP to come back on board.UkIP is full of little Englanders who I have no doubt still wish the channel tunnel was never built and mourn the day of the end of apartheid in South Africa.
How many non-whites in UKIP by the way?

"If our unelected Prime Minister insists on forcing the Irish people to vote twice, the case for letting the British people vote once will be morally unanswerable.”" Hague

but if it is fully ratified across the EU will a Tory government act morally and give us a post ratification referendum??????

I wonder whether Gideon,Mandy and the Russian discussed the UK joining the Euro on their summer yachtfest with Dave following through with his chat with Barosso.Yhey are the people that matter after all.

Tim Montgomerie
"I'd probably say the decision of Declan Ganley's Libertas to contest the European Elections was also a fourth bad thing. The constant splintering of what could loosely be called the Eurosceptic movement is its greatest weakness."

I prefer the phrase EUsceptic, to indicate that the target is the EU, not our European friends as such.

Libertas is not EUsceptic. It is unequivocally for EU reform, to an extent not (so far at least) expressed by the Conservative Party.

It therefore provides a more realistic third choice, the options now being
1) Content with the present direction as regards EU. - Vote Lab/Libdem/Con.
2) Content with the concept of EU, provided that it is radically reformed. - Vote Libertas.
3) Want UK's relationship with EU to be trade, friendship & cooperation but not political integration. - Vote UKIP, Eng Dem, etc, or on a personal basis for declared EUsceptic candidates of major parties.

I see the split vote aspect as being between options 1 and 2.

It is not voters' fault if the Conservative Party opinion actually straddles all three of those and it therefore loses out in the voting. It has to come off the fence and argue stridently and clearly in favour of just one of the options.


If it has been a bad day for the EU, it has been a worse day for Labour with the German concerted attack on Brown's handling of the economy! I suspect there are very senior people in the EU who also distinctly unimpressed by Labour's charge of Britain's finances.
As for the subject of Mr Ganley - I strongly suggest people find out as much as they can about him, including a recent profile on RTE.

'Forgetting for the moment Germany's "extraordinary" attack on Gordon Brown's fiscal stimulus there is the more important issue of what the euro is doing to certain EU nations.'

We learnt a painful lesson with the ERM about the harmful effects of European monetary integration during a recession, and we should count ourselves lucky to have escaped the Eurozone.

But for this country, the far more important issue is Brown's disastrous 'fiscal stimulus' (i.e. using more debt to solve a problem caused by excessive debt) and far from regarding it as 'extraordinary' we should be lining up to applaud the Germans for their totally accurate demolition of the whole policy.

"we should be lining up to applaud the Germans for their totally accurate demolition of the whole policy."

Absolutely, John C and in addition George Osborne should be preparing to shoot at the wide open goal!

Conservatives should stand up for the irish and commit to leaving the EU - It's got past a time where reform is possible to where we want it, and they have proven themselves to be undemocratic and determined in their path.

The conservative ideal of the EU would be lovely, but it ain't gonna happen.

It sounds as if the Germans have got it right. And guess what? Labour don't really want to know!

As "johnC" says, Brown's so-called "fiscal stimulus" is "disastrous". Indeed, it is simply not working. We need people in authority who can make a real difference to our economy. Only a Conservative administration would be able to alleviate the situation....

There may well be good arguments against the Euro politcally, but financially it's very strong. Confidence in the Euro has been demonstrated on the forex markets - it has increased against the dollar and sterling enormously over the past few months. It might be a fiscal straightjacket, but it's stopping the madness from spreading.

Sweden with its volatile currency is considering joining up, and the suggestion that Greece would be in a better position with its own currency is laughable.

You are letting eurosceptical ideology cloud fiscal reality. By all means oppose the EU, but not on the grounds that the euro is a dud currency. It patently isn't.

Myself (and many others) will remain firmly sceptical about the monstrous EU. It is undeomocratic, corrupt, expensive, bureaucratic and wasteful!

And yes, "A Banker," joining the Euro would be a "fiscal straightjacket". Just one of the many reasons not to advocate it! England should be as independent as possible, both politically AND economically.

Good for William Hague: he calls the 2nd Irish referendum undemocratic.

But he should also say the EU in toto is undemocratic.

As Anthony Coughlan points out in his latest round robin, the EU offer to the Irish to keep their own Commissioner is worth nothing.

According to Lisbon, in 2014 the EU President will effectively decide who shall be Commissioners. And the big countries will decide who shall be that President.

Doesn't that sound like a fascist state?

Declan Ganley is a delightful chap but he wants to make the EU more democratic - how Irish is that? (With apologies to all Irish of course!).

Better Off Out is the only way.

No doubt Lord Tebbit is not relishing his forecast coming true but he has long said that the EU will break up in local 'civil wars' - of the kind we are now seeing.

Posted by: Julian L Hawksworth | December 12, 2008 at 11:48

And yes, "A Banker," joining the Euro would be a "fiscal straightjacket". Just one of the many reasons not to advocate it! England should be as independent as possible, both politically AND economically.

I agree.

However, hysterical and factually inaccurate articles, as well as misguided attempts to suggest the euro has been anything other than a financial success on the markets make supporters of independence look foolish.

I'd rather see a program of austerity in a UK with our own currency. The recession is going to happen, and it's best not to take on any more debt than we need. We need public spending cuts, lower taxes and a balanced budget. Start spending decisions with what we need, not what we've already got.

We can ditch this silly climate change bunkum. The recession will do more to reduce carbon emissions than anything governments might do.

I'm happy for the Irish to have a second referendum, as long as we can have a first one. Treaty, constiution, it's all the same to me.

Rejoice! Manchester voters reject Congestion Charge by a large margin!

One in the eye for the Green Meanies and Eco Nutters and the Control Freaks of the Left.

Rejoice! Again I say Rejoice!

What is this weird UK obsession with the idea that the Euro is on the verge of collapse? Fair enough, that's what you'd like, but it just is not the case. I remember Black Wednesday, and the Euro has protected us (Ireland) from an Iceland style currency meltdown. Even Libertas are in favour of the Euro!


Just wait till 2009, then get back to us.

The Eurozone is behind the UK in entering recession, and some countries, like France, are going to find it very difficult to get out of recession.
This is the reason that Sarkozy is pushing like crazy for adoption of "climate change" policies, which suit only France, and damage the rest.

The Euro is going to enter a very dodgy period, when all that will be holding it together is the desire, or lack of same, of the Germans to keep bankrolling economic basket cases like France, Greece, and the rest.

The German people already refuse to accept non-German Euros.
When the German politicians (behind the curve as usual) eventually catch up with their people, the Euro is finished.

You say that the Euro is causing serious economic tension within its membership. I suppose the acute weakness of the pound is not ? Something like the pot calling the kettle black at least. The fact remains that a Britain outside the EU would merely be insignificant - a vassal state of a selfish America.

What is this weird UK obsession with the idea that the Euro is on the verge of collapse? Fair enough, that's what you'd like, but it just is not the case. I remember Black Wednesday, and the Euro has protected us (Ireland) from an Iceland style currency meltdown. Even Libertas are in favour of the Euro!


Just wait till 2009, then get back to us.

The Eurozone is behind the UK in entering recession, and some countries, like France, are going to find it very difficult to get out of recession.
This is the reason that Sarkozy is pushing like crazy for adoption of "climate change" policies, which suit only France, and damage the rest.

The Euro is going to enter a very dodgy period, when all that will be holding it together is the desire, or lack of same, of the Germans to keep bankrolling economic basket cases like France, Greece, and the rest.

The German people already refuse to accept non-German Euros.
When the German politicians (behind the curve as usual) eventually catch up with their people, the Euro is finished.

Does the EU ever have a good day?

It seems to me that the Lisbon treaty was derailed by the vote of the Irish people.
Isn’t it undemocratic to try a 2nd time to force a reluctant nation to vote for Lisbon.
I suppose a 2nd “NO” or “YES” depending on the wording of the referendum, will only be an end of the issue if the Euro-c-rats get the decision they desire. No other recent issue has underlined the non-democratic nature of European Union. Just as Labour has sleep walked us into a surveillance state, so the EEC is pushing us toward a dictatorship.
If the Irish embarrass Brussels again will we see arrests and internments .

We are witnessing the start of the third great European War. I had predicted the economic chaos - but it came 7 months earlier than I had expected it. The dollar will collapse in April and the Pound will be at Parity with the dollar by February. The Eurozone will split apart. When the rioting starts in the English cities as prices skyrocket due to the Weimar style printing of (increasingly worthless) money, the 50,000 Taser weapons recently ordered by the Police Service will come into action. It is a shame but it has all been brought about by the spinelessness of the Conservatives and the stupidity of the British electorate who sat on their hands instead of actively engaging in peaceful protest. The Germans are correct in their analysis of Brown's incompetence. Enjoy Christmas as for many it will be the last one in peace time.

Steve Foley, the Manchester result is an excellent illustration of why referendums are a bad thing and NOT democracy in action.

Pollution and traffic jams in Manchester, and London, are appalling - bad for our health, the environment, and a massive waste of time.

But are people prepared to fork out £5 for the general good? No. People are inherently selfish as well as stupid. Everyone else should stop driving, not me.

That's why introducing the congestion charge in London was brave - I didn't like the man, but Livingstone showed more guts than the entire cabinet put together in pushing that through.

And what's more, he did it without wimpishly asking people what they thought in advance. Obviously if you ask people, they're not going to want to fork out more cash than they already do. However, by just going ahead and doing it, Livingstone proved it could work, and people got the chance to see it in action - and they re-elected him. Now, that re-election was democracy in action - people voting on the basis of knowledge and experience, not on the basis of ignorance, prejudice and selfishness.

Apologies for further diverting this thread, which is supposed to be about the EU, I just had to respond to Steve's point.

Nigel I wouldn`t be surprised by these comments. People on here believe that anyone should be able to do anything and blow the consequences for anyone else.
The less cars on the road the better as this will inevitably lead to less astmah and lung diseases. Its not a good day for Manchester its a bloody awful one!!!

If the Irish people vote no again - and I sincerely trust that they will - how many more chances do you think that they'll get to vote "no"? We can't have one and their opportunities appear to be endless.

It will, no doubt, all end if they inadvertently vote "yes". In that eventuality, we will be told what a wonderful success it all was and that we didn't need a vote, anyway.

Sorry, Steve, the great thing about democracy is, or should be, that everyone gets the opportunity to voice their opinion.
I consider that the imposition of the London congestion charge which made me have to pay for the privilege of driving on the streets of my own city, something that I already pay for anyway, a little taxation scheme which enabled Livingstone access to monies to fund his other hair-brained schemes. I do not consider his action to be brave, just devious.
And, by the way, if he had remained in off ice, how long do you think it would have taken him to commandeer the entire area enclosed by the M25?

Nigel Rathbone your post is complete rubbish. Referendums are most certainly not a bad and they very much are democracy in action.
You may dislike people and think they are all stupid but in a democracy you have to accept their will. The fact that you don't like the result in Manchester is just tough.

Jack Stone @ 10.35:

"UkIP is full of little Englanders who I have no doubt still wish the channel tunnel was never built and mourn the day of the end of apartheid in South Africa.
How many non-whites in UKIP by the way?"

Nigel Farage's wife as a German lady, MEP Gerard Batten's wife comes from the Philippines, Marta Andreasen, UKIP's treasurer (formally the EU Chief Accountant fired by Neil Kinnock for not signing off the EU's bent accounts) is a Spanish lady of Danish descent, Delroy Young of the NEC came originally from the West Indies, your humble servant’s wife is another oriental. UKIP's polices are to expand our trade horizons with the rest of the world, not just Europe.

Do you trot out these untruths on purpose, Jack Stone, or are you just very badly informed. If the latter, why do you rant about matters about which you clearly know so little?

By all means criticise UKIP's policies and ideas, along with those of the Tories or of any other party or group, but unsubstantiated personal abuse merely reflects back upon the character, or lack of it, of the abuser.


In the EU, 'NO' has a different meaning to what we understand which is similar to the following :-


In mathematical logic, a (formal) theory is a set of statements expressed in a particular formal language. Most theories of interest are infinite. Some statements in a theory are included without proof (these are the axioms of the theory), and others (the theorems) are included because they are implied by the axioms.

Because statements of a formal theory are written in symbolic form, it is possible to mechanically verify that a formal proof from a finite set of axioms is valid. This task, known as automatic proof verification, is closely related to automated theorem proving; the difference is that instead of constructing a new proof, the proof verifier simply checks that a provided formal proof (or, in some cases, instructions that can be followed to create a formal proof) is correct. This is not merely hypothetical; systems such as Isabelle are used today to formalize proofs and then check their validity.

Many theories of interest include an infinite set of axioms, however. In order to verify a formal proof when the set of axioms is infinite, it must be possible to determine whether a statement that is claimed to be an axiom is actually an axiom. This issue arises in first order theories of arithmetic, such as Peano arithmetic, because the principle of mathematical induction is expressed as an infinite set of axioms (an axiom schema).

A formal theory is said to be effectively generated if its set of axioms is a recursively enumerable set. This means that there is a computer program that, in principle, could enumerate all the axioms of the theory without listing any statements that are not axioms. This is equivalent to the ability to enumerate all the theorems of the theory without enumerating any statements that are not theorems. For examples, each of the theories of Peano arithmetic and Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory has an infinite number of axioms and each is effectively generated.

In choosing a set of axioms, one goal is to be able to prove as many correct results as possible, without proving any incorrect results. A set of axioms is complete if, for any statement in the axioms' language, either that statement or its negation is provable from the axioms. A set of axioms is (simply) consistent if there is no statement so that both the statement and its negation are provable from the axioms. In the standard system of first-order logic, an inconsistent set of axioms will prove every statement in its language (this is sometimes called the principle of explosion), and is thus automatically complete. A set of axioms that is both complete and consistent, however, will prove as many theorems as can be proved without containing a contradiction.

They need to stop 'thinking' and just read the dictionary to understand what NO means.


Nigel Rathbone wrote: "But are people prepared to fork out £5 for the general good? No. People are inherently selfish as well as stupid. "

Nice piece of misdirection there Nigel. People are not being asked to pay £5 to ease congestion, they are being asked to pay £5 each and every day. For some that could be up to 10% of their post-tax income.

Ask how many people are willing to have a 10% pay cut to ease congestion. The answer really should not surprise you - especially when there is a recession on and money is in short supply.

A Banker wrote: "Confidence in the Euro has been demonstrated on the forex markets - it has increased against the dollar and sterling enormously over the past few months. It might be a fiscal straightjacket, but it's stopping the madness from spreading".

In fact the Euro has weakened enormously against the dollar.

In April a Euro was worth $1.60. Today it is about $1.30.

The Euro has also weakened dramatically against the yen and yuan over the same period.

The Euro is in trouble. Currently, £ sterling is in even worse trouble.

And just how many people will be able to afford to run a car, and how many factories will there be left making automobiles, by the time Gordon has finished his job of Saving The World?

Hard to believe, but you can vote already at www.FreeEurope.info

David t home. If that is the case why do so many ex BNP members join UKIP. UKIP is the smilling face of right wing extremism!!!

If referendums should be accepted as in the Manchester one and the Irish vote on the treaty why do so many people who post on this site not accept that the British people have already voted to stay in the EU by referendum and stop this silly call for a referendum on pulling out of the EU.
As usual with the hypocritic right they support democracy when it suits them!!

Except of course they haven't Jack.The idea of the EU as it exists today was not debated in 1975.
Why are you a Conservative? You've absolutely nothing in common with any Conservative I've ever met.

And by the way Jack how many BNP members have joined UKIP? I doubt you have any idea at all.

Jack Stone - go away troll.

As usual with the hypocritic [sic] right they support democracy when it suits them

Jack Stone: as usual the hypocrisy you see in others is merely a projection of your own (you are thus doubly hypocritical - for damning your own condition as a trait of others). The Irish people's vote wasn't acceptable to the sneering elites of the Leftist establishment - so they must be 'asked' again...and again...and again...until their viewpoint accords with yours.

But what if they remain true to their first principles and repeatedly tell you - and all those bigots you so venerate - to go to hell? How much value to democracy will your vicious little crew give then?

So Malcolm if congestion gets worse in a few years are Manchester Council entitled to go back and have another referendum to try and get people to change there mind.
If you consult once about an issue then you must accept that decision. Wether its in Ireland or in Britain in 1975.
Anyway a referendum about Britains future as about as much chance of ever being accepted as policy by a serious political party than UKIP have of ever gaining any political power anywhere.
Malcolm I am the sort of Conservative who believes in a strong Britain and we will only get that in the EU. Out of it we will end up with no influence and an even worse economy than we have now.
I think the anti-EU brigade have had there day and support for our position in Europe is gaining support.
Personally I would have no worries about a referendum on Britains future in Europe because I am certain that when it comes to it as they did in seventy five by an over whelming majority the peoiple will vote to stay in.
The people at large are frankly not as stupid as the right-wing think they are.

Firstly, a thankyou to "A Banker" for his polite response to my previous post. However, he has failed to convince me.

Regarding Malcolm Dunn's comments on the Manchester referendum, I agree in full. In contrast, perhaps Nigel thinks that the people of Manchester should vote for a second time?

Firstly, a thankyou to "A Banker" for his polite reply to my previous post. However, he has failed to convince me.

Regarding the Manchester referendum, I agree with Malcolm Dunn's comments. In contrast, perhaps Nigel thinks that the people of Manchester should be asked to vote for a second time?

This is fun.

A Labour troll and some UKIP trolls in a real catfight - exposing the flaws in each other's arguments.

In contrast, perhaps Nigel thinks that the people of Manchester should be asked to vote for a second time?

Not at all. I think they shouldn't have been asked the first time - total waste of time and money - the Council should have gone ahead and done it.

If it worked, they would be re-elected (or their opponents/successors would adopt and retain it), if it didn't work, the voters could kick them out.

That's representative democracy, British style.

If all reforms needed prior approval from the electorate, nothing would ever get done. Imagine if Maggie had submitted some of her tougher early 1980s reforms to a popular vote prior to implementing them.

NR: Not at all. I think they shouldn't have been asked the first time - total waste of time and money - the Council should have gone ahead and done it. If it worked, they would be re-elected (or their opponents/successors would adopt and retain it), if it didn't work, the voters could kick them out.

That's not representative democracy, British style or in anyone's style! Councillors and other elected members are the peoples' representatives and servants, not their betters, and do well to remember it. On a more partisan note, I do believe that the huge majority of Conservative councillors (certainly the ones that I work with) do!

As Ganley wants to reform the EU a vote for Libertas looks like a wasted vote. Guess it will be UKIP again for me.

Robert Eve: As Ganley wants to reform the EU a vote for Libertas looks like a wasted vote.

Tonight is the first time I heard of the Libertas outfit. It will be an interesting addition to next year's campaign, but I'll be amazed if they manage to build a candidate base and a ground-game UK-wide in time!

They do quote in their website that they were the first time that a political movement has been brought before you with a dedicated and determined focus of change and reform.

But they weren't.

Brownies already from the new boys?


"In contrast, perhaps Nigel thinks that the people of Manchester should vote for a second time?"

I'm not convinced that he thinks that the people of Manchester are intelligent enough to be allowed to vote at all.

His arguments are typical of those trotted out by people on the losing side of a vote.

Thanks for your support, Richard and Sean.

In contrast, there are too many others who seem to regard genuine democracy with contempt. True democracy is not just a "populist" concept.

Labour supporters claim to be advocates of democracy and individualism, but never demonstrate these ideals in practise.

I'm glad to see that some politicians are realising that the science doesn't support the Global Warming hysteria.

I very much hope that the next Conservative Government will put the competitiveness of the UK economy ahead of green faddery.

Please read the article contained within the following link. Very, very scary indeed:

http://www.namastepublishing.co.uk/Elizabeth%20Beckett%20-%20News%20Black%20Out.htm

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