This is not a police matter but about our democracy

Did you watch Gordon Brown say that this was not a matter for him but for the police?  Even if we believe his claims not to have known about Damian Green's arrest until after it had happened, his answers to Adam Boulton's questions were wholly inadequate.  The Prime Minister expressed no concerns at the simultaneous swooping of anti-terror police on a Member of Parliament's home, constituency office and parliamentary office.  He was silent about the implications of anti-terror police confiscating an MP's correspondence with constituents, his phone and computer and searching through historic love letters between Damian Green and his wife.  He said nothing about the disabling of Mr Green's parliamentary email service, such that constituents receive an automatic reply saying that the account has been disabled for security reasons. It's just a matter for the police, Mr Brown kept saying.  That was a completely inadequate answer from a man who regularly received leaked documents when Labour was in opposition.  The Prime Minister needs to realise that people are very concerned about the integrity of our democracy as a result of Thursday.

Most public anger from the Tory benches is, however, being directed at the House of Commons Speaker, Michael Martin.  The Daily Mail records the fury of Douglas Carswell MP - a regular critic of Mr Martin - and also of Iain Duncan Smith:

"If it turns out that the Speaker gave the go-a-head for this raid, I will be demanding to his face, on every occasion that I can, that Mr Martin now quit. The purpose of the Commons Speaker is to preside over an institution that holds government to account – not to give the green light to police raids against legitimate opposition... There needs to be a pretty good explanation as to why he sanctioned this raid. If the Speaker can’t provide one, he should go. I have spoken to MPs on both sides of the Commons who are shocked and outraged by this." - Douglas Carswell MP

"Former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith wrote to the Speaker last night to protest at the ‘abuse of the principle of the supremacy of Parliament’. Mr Duncan Smith told Mr Martin that he and other officers of the House had a ‘prime responsibility to make sure that the agencies of government do not consider it their right to treat Parliament like any other department or agency in the land’. He demanded: ‘Who else will our constituents feel they can turn to, to settle legitimate grievances, if they come to believe that the police or any other agency can cow this House into subservience?’ Mr Duncan Smith called for a parliamentary inquiry into the affair and an emergency debate as soon as Parliament returns next week." - Daily Mail

I'll give Cranmer the last word on Michael Martin:

"When King Charles I entered the House in order to search for and arrest five members for high treason, he was met by Speaker Lenthall. The Speaker did not grant the King permission to search the office of the five or betray them to the the investigating authority. When asked where these members were, Speaker Lenthall replied: "May it please your Majesty, I have neither eyes to see nor tongue to speak in this place but as the House is pleased to direct me, whose servant I am here."

Speaker Martin’s eyes are misted and his tongue is forked. And he certainly does not serve the interests of the House.  If he will not resign, there must be a confidence motion. Members on all sides ought to be very afraid of a man who presumes the authority to sanction arbitrary searches of private parliamentary facilities without their knowledge, and without regard for secret, sensitive, private and confidential papers which may routinely be found there.  It is time for Speaker Martin to go."

Tim Montgomerie

Comments

[DCMX]

Nick Clegg in The Daily Telegraph: The Prime Minister must now do three things: he must clearly dissociate himself from the police operation altogether; he must clarify urgently what Home Office civil servants told ministers, and when; and he must instantly end his habit of leaking Whitehall information to secure favourable headlines for his own Government, while ministers now stand idly by as an opposition MP is arrested for seeking to bring Whitehall information to light in the first place.

Hear Hear!

[rugfish]

Police state - the edited version.

The Police State was to ensure that everybody did as they were told - or paid the price. The Police were controlled by [ Insert no one who will admit it ], and his feared anti - terror police did as it pleased. Children's loyalty could be developed with a policy of indoctrination via education. Time and planning spent in these areas would bring a suitable reward for the leader and the Party.

Adults were a different proposition. Some adults clearly supported the party - as the last election showed. But the same election clearly showed that a substantial number of people did not support the leader or the party. These people were likely to be a constant thorn for the leader unless they were dealt with. For these people, the party developed a policy of intimidation. Fear became a by-word for those who did not support the party. The wrong comment overheard by an official could have very serious consequences.

The police state worked on the rule that if you said nothing, no harm, could come to you. If you had doubts about the way the country was going, you kept them to yourself - or paid the price. As millions of people had not voted for either the leader or the party, a large and visible police force was required to keep this sizeable group under observation and control.

The police were allowed to arrest people on suspicion that they were about to do wrong. This gave the police huge powers. All local police units had to draw up a list of people in their locality who might be suspected of being "Enemies of the State". The anti -terror police had the power to do as it liked.

Those arrested by the police had less than three minutes to pack clothing and say their goodbyes. Once arrested, they were sent to the nearest police cell. The usual rule of thumb was whether it was felt that you had learned your lesson (even if there had not been one to learn) and would behave in an acceptable manner once outside of prison.

Who would get arrested?

The list was intentionally expansive. Anybody considered to be a political threat was arrested;

Those who made jokes about the Party were also arrested (jokes about the leader were punished with death); the "work shy" were also arrested (this fitted in exactly with the leaders plan to reduce unemployment as an unemployed person would be offered work at a Labour Exchange and if they refused it as too menial for them, they would be arrested as work shy.

As no-one in concentration camps ( or on the disabled register ) counted as unemployed, the figures for unemployment had to come down; "Bibelforscher’s" were also arrested (these were people who would only seek guidance from the opposition and rejected all party ideas.

The Anti - terror law meant that the activities of the state were free from any review by courts of law. This law effectively meant that the party became a law unto themselves. This non-uniformed branch of the anti - terrorist unit became justifiably feared just as the visible presence of the black uniformed SS men did in wartime Germany.

The unedited version can be READ HERE -

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nazi_police_state.htm

[Eveleigh Moore-Dutton]

It is the silence of the Speaker of the House of Commons that is so shameful - in earlier centuries Speakers risked (and lost) their lives in the defence of the privileges of the House of Commons. When members of parliament lose their freedom to speak out democracy is severely threatened.

[Hardcore Conservative]

Revenge is a dish best served cold, and it is really time that we started to harbour a few grievances against those who seek to do the governments dirty work while purporting to be neutral agents funded by the taxpayer.

The strategy should be:

Get elected into government and then give the police a serious and sustained organisational kicking. Disband ACPO, disband the various minority police associations, ensure that senior officers are held fully accountable and overhaul the so called “independent” complaints process.

In other words make them remember that they are there to serve us, the taxpaying public, not the other way round.

Even if (and we do not know the full facts yet) in this case there is more than meets the eye, the above action is more than justified and long overdue given the way the police act and behave towards decent, law abiding people.

[Dominic]

There is no doubt how serious this position is as it is the greatest test of our democracy that has been eroded over the last eleven years.
This is not the time for polite platitudes the Conservative party on behalf of the people have got to take their gloves off and start using the language that the people understand.
David Davis should be appointed “Minister for Civil Liberties" and every thrust be perpetrated and channelled through his department every Council using covert methods to be spying on individuals should be exposed.
The public at large need to know daily how much of their civil liberties have been eroded.
I read a very interesting piece from a group calling themselves Tax Justice Network a crackpot outfit that want to close all the offshore areas and have often crossed swords with Tax Alliance.
Tax Justice said. Don’t abuse the civil service
I wrote yesterday about George Osborne and my suspicion that he was receiving leaked documentation. I did so before knowing of the arrest of Damian Green.
I do not know sufficient of the circumstances of Damian Green’s arrest to pass much comment, but I do reiterate what I said yesterday. Many people, including MPs of all parties who are not members of the government, receive information in the course of policy discussion which they are trusted not to use in public debate. If that trust is breached then government becomes more secretive, not less.
And those with a particular viewpoint do on occasion receive information which is sensitive, which the sender did not have authority to disclose. It has happened to me. But, unless the information indicates criminal conduct requiring investigation I think the obligation is quite clear: you do not use what you have received. At least you don’t if you respect the process of government and the importance of civil service integrity.
It is not clear that Damian Green does that.
I am not confident that George Osborne does either.END

[Iain]

I understand Damian Green is a Privy Councilor, with the police removing all his office files that must mean they are interferring in his constitutional relationship with the Monach, and in reviewing the information held in those files they are reviewing information that they no right to be privy to. Is that right?

[Sally Roberts]

His Grace puts it superbly! Speaker Lenthall was a brave man. Speaker Martin, sadly is a craven and venal tool of the Labour Party.

[Sally Roberts]

Interesting, if chilling post, Rugfish! People may also find this link of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psikhushka

[michael mcgough]

It is beginning to look very serious----how long before it turns nasty?

[georgeorwellslittlesister]

Although I don't agree with his politics, I have always viewed Jack Straw as a mainly good egg. His tortured, uncomfortable facial expressions while listening to his boss claiming that she "knew nothing" were a dead giveaway.

[E Justice]

This is is about things that are happening in England,( the lies about immigration only concerned England)
The rest of "Britain" have their own Parliaments, would they have allowed this to happen in their Parliaments? Westminster is not looking after English liberties, it is not a Parliament for England.
But England needs one now!

[Sally Roberts]

And don't forget, georgeorwellslittlesister that Straw's wife is a very senior civil servant - they will both know exactly what is going on.

[rugfish]

If Brown knew nothing then it proves he has no control.

If Brown did know about it then it proves he does have control and has abused it.

Both scenario's deserve a vote of confidence in his leadership and unless that is put forward by MP's then it'll end under the commons rug like all other things.

Remember when Freedom and Independence meant something ?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=V9uDlOA_bNA

[Doug]

And Jack Straw was up to his neck in the Craig Murray affair. Exerting the same kind of pressure that led to the death of Dr. David Kelly.

The reason it happened in Parliament is because the current government broke the tradition of calling an opposition MP to the Speakers' chair and instead named a hyper-partisan Labour stooge. Under Martin Parliament is subservient to the executive.

[m wood]

Isn't it a bit worrying that the junior civil servant who was arrested last week is being kept in a 'secret location? I wonder if he is being 'coached' to say something that compromising about the way the leaks happened?

[rugfish]

I propose that the Labour heirarchy makes lists of people that disagree with them, especially those in minority groups.

It should start the process of delivering forced change to the way they think, speak and act in society and leave no stone unturned in pursuit of its obvious supremacy over all humans.

Obviously anyone who disagrees with Gordon Brown will require HELP with their psychological development so I think special camps could be set up for this where dissidents ( shall we say ), can ENJOY constant repeats of Gordon's speeches in order to gain a better understanding of the aptitudes required by the state in all Gordon's citizens.

I'd like a vote on this at the next election as soon as Gordon permits me to have one please.

Perhaps we could start a monitoring programme first just to make it fair so when we arrest people for thinking, we'll be able to prove that state policy was right and that the leader had nothing to do with it ?

[Anna]

So far as I can see, this appalling situation is but the natural culmination of

1) An electorate that has become infantilised, with no sense of history (heaven forbid that should be taught in our schools!) and with nothing more than a sense of entitlement. It will vote for whichever party promises the greatest return for the least work.

2) Supine MPs who are wholly partisan and have sacrificed the sovereign power of Parliament to the power of the whips and their own careers.

I am, of course, outraged by the cavalier treatment of Damian Green but in truth, apart from the unique aspect of his Parliamentary office being invaded, it is nothing more than is meted out to entirely innocent people on a regular basis.

Of what use is outrage when nobody, anywhere, is going to do anything about it?

[Michael Booth]

The British people are not subjects but citizens who, under our present system, entrust sovereignty to Parliament. Parliament under Speaker Martin is no longer 'fit for purpose' - to use one of Dr. John Reid's favourite phrases. Is it not high time therefore that the people of this country have an opportunity to decide, through some form of National Convention - exactly what systems of government they wish to live under and what checks and balances are put in place to protect the rights of every citizen from arbitrary abuse and arrest?

[rugfish]

Posted by: Michael Booth | November 29, 2008 at 11:25

A British Constitution would fulfill that aspiration quite nicely as long as it isn't written by Brown who would place "responsibilities" into a document which is intended to enshrine the states responsibility to the people and not the other way around.

I think it's high time we had one and I also think it would go down very well with the electorate even if we nicked the idea from UKIP and spun one of theirs out quick on the photocopier.

[meli]

I do agree rugfish. And I have myself decided to vote for no party at the next election who do not make it apart of their manifesto, the promise to roll back this Police State we are now sinking ever deeper into. It is sad that the powers that be take no real notice until it is politicians themselves affected. What hope for the little men and women in this country?

[snegchui]

Rugfish:
Are you graduate of Pol Pot's Ministry of Justice? You have wrong strand of Communism, this is not Stalinism. Global warming will be increased to freeze out Scotland and all the nasty nationalists, and then when landscape is suitable for Gulag, we will begin proper regime of decontamination of society by locking up dissidents. Purification of Khmer Rouge was stupid doctrine.
Report to centre straight away. (You know which one)

[Sally Roberts]

"Isn't it a bit worrying that the junior civil servant who was arrested last week is being kept in a 'secret location? I wonder if he is being 'coached' to say something that compromising about the way the leaks happened?"

They say they "owe him a duty of care" - NO duty of care of course to Mr Green or his wife and sobbing daughter!!

[Lindsay Jenkins]

In this outrageous and frightening situation so well described by earlier posters, I am bemused that David Cameron has not (yet) taken a stronger line.

Nick Clegg for example has hit the nail on the head - e.g. Telegraph article.

To listen to Cameron one could be forgiven for thinking this was no more than a little local difficulty.

I hope that out of a full review which I hope is even now going on David Cameron will come out mega decibel and fast. He has to.

Will this government find an excuse to suspend elections? Far fetched? It should be but all bets are now off.

[Freedom Fighter]

We can still choose which type of people we want to be: a free people or a subdued people.

Should we want to remain free; we see to it that this arrest and search by 'counter-terrorism officers' of a shadow minister is met with the resignations of those people who allowed it to happen.

If we want to further our client relationship with the police state, we will do nothing and let it pass. This is a democracy (still) and we get the governance we deserve.

As I said in a recent post, from now our only moral response is to nurture a disposition of rebellion against this control-hungry totalitarian-minded regime. Acknowledging it for what it is is the most important start to regaining our liberty.

[Patsy Sergeant]

Dominic @ 09.26 - 'At least you don't (use the information you have received) if you respect the process of government and the importance of civil service integrity.'

Quite a long and measured comment, but what you fail to note while - fashionably - accusing George Osborne, is the actual leak, last Monday by this Gov't of the PBR contents (at least some of them), and historically in this context of making use of 'leaks', your case would have been stronger if you had acknowledged the use made by Gordon Brown of 'leaks', in the past - among many other people. But no you just pick on the opposition soft targets!

[euro]

New Cassius piece this morning, our Democracy is our TRUE claim to world leadership and Gordon Brown is distancing himself from it:

http://cassiuswrites.blogspot.com/2008/11/gordon-brown-is-distancing-himself-from.html

[Patsy Sergeant]

Rugfish @ 11.31 and Michael Booth @ 11.25 - Don't you think it would be wiser to keep quiet about the benefits of having a British Constitution until this lot have been chucked out?

At the very least, judging by so many of the laws that this shower have concocted in eleven years, they will make a Monkey's Aunt of a constitution, and as I believe they - the government appoint the top judiciary now, leaving it to lawyers won't make any difference.

NOT having a constitution is bad enough, but imagine haveing one constructed by this unprincipled bunch? 1) The PM to decided when a GE should be held.....

[Victor, NW Kent]

Dissapointing to people like me who fought to preserve our freedoms and in our dotage find that we have none left.
Who will they round up next? Anyone who is disliked by the PM or Home Secretary? A lot of folk. Will it be anyone who dislikes the PM and Home Secretary? About 40 million of us.
Reminds me of Section 19 of The Emergency Powers Act as it was applied from 3rd September 1939 when large numbers of totally innocent people were rounded up, only to be discharged within weeks without charge.

[steve]

Brown has all the Hitler Stalin qualities now

check out the first video here - the ending is where we are heading

www.thecrownblogspot.blogspot.com/2008/11/gordon-browns-downfall-prequel.html

[Eveleigh Moore-Dutton]

Lindsay Jenkins | November 29, 2008 at 12:00

Lindsay I would hope that DC's relatively low profile is because he does not wish this to become a purely party political issue. In my opinion it is a matter that goes to the heart of British democracy and our unwritten Constitution. Currently people from across the political and apolitical spectrum have reacted with anger to this outrage to parliamentary democracy. That righteous anger must be allowed to grow and unite all people who recognise that our traditional freedoms and rights are imperilled by the great clunking fist.

On the upside - I now understand what Tony Blair meant when he described Brown in those words! "Clunking" and "fist" being the most appropriate!

[The Wilted Rose]

Our fascist Labour government turned its back on Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights etc a long time ago. Welcome to the Third Reich, Brown style, with Muslims being treated as untermenschen and MPs harassed by the Met/gestapo.

[rugfish]

Posted by: Patsy Sergeant | November 29, 2008 at 12:38

Indeed I do NOT want Browns fingerprints anywhere near a constitution Patsy and I'd like David Cameron to say this :-

"Whether Gordon Brown or this government contrive a fudged constitution, we will override it and we will not vote for it because we will place it before the people when we enter office along with the Lisbon Treaty whether or not that happens to have been ratified"

Further, I'd like the Human Rights Act to be publicly set on fire along with the Anti-Terror Laws and all manner of other ridiculously "unbritish" crap Brown and Blair have foisted on this great nation.

I believe the people WANT this and I believe it would make for greater support for our party by taking in disenfranchised voters from other parties too.

It's the closest I can get to public hangings for traitors which I think would be frowned on a little by some these days.

[TomTom]

Brown sounds distinctly like the Russian political elite telling us why Lugovoi should NOT be interviewed by British police in connection with Litvinenko.

Funny how Brown always appears to be more like Andrei Gromyko than Harold Macmillan

[Norm Brainer]

Yes, if the Speaker isn't willing to potentially lay down his life to defend the parliament, he isn't fit for purpose and should be taken down and shot - future speakers will then think twice before standing aside and letting our democracy get trampled on.

It's disgraceful that brown's saying it's a matter for the police... if police come into your house and steal all your or your flatmate's stuff for no real reason you don't just stand around and say "it's a matter for the police"

It's time we petitioned the Queen to call a General Election NOW to get rid of this shower of shits.

[Votedave]

"To listen to Cameron one could be forgiven for thinking this was no more than a little local difficulty."

I beg to differ: his response was very swift and angry and even made the top story of the BBC news.

[Dominic]

PATSY SERGEANT@12-27 I think you should realise the thoughts and comments referred to are from a madcap organisation called Tax Justice Network who work very closely with the Guardian and not mine.
One thing that seems to be missing from our Conservative MP’S on this subject is real passion I agree with Lindsay Jenkins when Cameron was interviewed he lacked real passion and his terminology was very tame.
Please let us see our Conservative Politicians get really angry like all the people posting on this blog then the public might just get the message.

[Bishop Swine]

Hardcore Conservative is right we need to be thinking about the changes that are needed and be prepared for the tantrums that will follow. The ACPO was always a very bad idea its high time we stopped such PC (no pun intended) nonsence.

[Dominic]

PATSY SERGEANT@12-27 I think you should realise the thoughts and comments referred to are from a madcap organisation called Tax Justice Network who work very closely with the Guardian and not mine.
One thing that seems to be missing from our Conservative MP’S on this subject is real passion I agree with Lindsay Jenkins when Cameron was interviewed he lacked real passion and his terminology was very tame.
Please let us see our Conservative Politicians get really angry like all the people posting on this blog then the public might just get the message.

[Michael Booth]

Posted by: Patsy Sergeant | November 29, 2008 at 12:38

You are quite right Patsy - I wouldn't want any of this lot to have any hand in constitution making - actually, what I was suggesting was quite different: take the constitution making out to the people. Constitutions don't have to be imposed from above by elites with vested interests to preserve - we could instigate a nation-wide consultation on (1) the limits of power exercised by the executive (2) the structure of Parliament and the checks and balances in place (3) a meaningful Bill of Rights (the French managed it in 1789) and so on. We could make a start by having Chief Constables elected by the people they serve, and direct local elections to Police Authorities. Any takers?

[Michael Booth]

Oh yes, and why not elect our judges too?

[rugfish]

"Please let us see our Conservative Politicians get really angry like all the people posting on this blog then the public might just get the message".

Posted by: Dominic | November 29, 2008 at 13:30

I agree Dominic but I'm mindful that Labour could easily have engineered a display of open anger from us in order for them to appear calm in a crisis. It's on the one hand ( rightly ) what's needed, but on the other could prove fatal to our credibility if the leader was himself to appear anything less than composed.( ? )

There's a growing need for people like David Davis to be brought back into the front line to make a strong argument at the dispatch box I think along with Michael Howard and Dominic Grieve.

Osborne is doing very nicely on the financial front and Cameron should hit home the overall message for a need for change ( to save the country and to bring about a new era for democratic responsibility to the electorate.

All arrows should be aimed directly at the enemy and not scattered in order to make the biggest impact. But 'tempered anger' is of course something which is desperately needed to compliment public outrage.

Personally speaking however, I would advocate a coup followed by the building of scaffold's for these hawks of treason and a nice set of sharpened pitch-forks handed out at 'election time' to those who'd make good use of them.

[Dominic]

I do feel people like Tebbit, Clarke, Thatcher, and Hesseltine could all deliver outrage in a measured way that would and could chop the legs from any Journalist or Politician and tear them apart with ease and inspire their passion to the people.
This situation is the most serious wake up call for years

[pp]

I think it is worth noting that while individual MPs and parties may not be above the law - parliament most certainly is above the law.

Parliament is soverign - it is about time all MPs recognised the trust this entails, and started living up to it! (including taking full responsiblity for setting their own pay - and doing it entirely transparently).

[Lindsay Jenkins]

I agree with rugfish @13.50 and dominic @14.19

David Davis has shown real leadership over 42 days (amongst other things) and a fundamental understanding of what is at stake. Michael Howard's comments went straight to the heart of the matter. So too did Clegg, Benn and others.

Cameron must come out fighting fast. Waiting for others to fan the flames, to answer Eveleigh, is no answer.

Delighted Dominic Grieve is flying home. Plenty of good brains to help.

[Sally Roberts]

Lindsay, we don't know what David Cameron may be planning and he's hardly likely to announce in advance if he has something in mind for the day of the State Opening!
It is important for us all now to rally round David Cameron as our leader - if the Enemy (for I will now refer to them as such rather than the Opposition!) gets a sniff that we are not all pulling together - they will try their utmost to pull us apart...

[Old Hack]

Now's the time for another brave Home Office mole to start burrowing for Britain!

If there's a civil servant with a sense of justice in the Home Office, now's the time to start dishing the dirt.

That's enough of the metaphors...

[rugfish]

Please do remember the 3rd of December !

Remember remember the 3rd of December
Gunpowder, treason and plot.
I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot !

Parliament opens on this day and I want to see some sparks flying !!

[rugfish]

Posted by: Sally Roberts | November 29, 2008 at 15:23

Quite right Sally.
The unfortunate and annoying thing is with the biased media David and others have to cope with, there often arises a feeling in our ranks that we aren't doing enough but it's practically impossible without the air time.

The other thing is Brown's annoying deflections of NOT answering the questions put to him and personally I feel a sit down strike of questioning would land a good slot on the news.

If "we" decided not to ask questions because it's of no point with "this undemocratic government", then I wonder what that would lead to in our biggest time of crisis as surely the entire country knows of Brown's arrogance so maybe it could actually work if David said "I'll talk the country instead of him because talking to him is like talking to a wall" ? lolol

[Peter O]

May I suggest that this Wednesday, David Cameron takes the following course of action, seeing as there is (conveniently) no Prime Minister's Question Time.

On returning to the Commons after the Queen's Speech

Cameron : Mr Speaker, Point of Information. Can the Prime Minister confirm whether there has been any request to the Metropolitan Police to investigate the leaks last week from the Treasury of substantial content from the PBR, and in particular whether any Government Ministers are likely to be arrested on suspicion of "aiding and abetting misconduct in public office"? Yes or no?

Brown gives usual non-answer to simple yes or no question

Cameron : Mr Speaker, a further Point of Information. Can the Prime Minister tell the House whether he or the Leader of the House will be asking the Speaker of this House to explain why he allowed members of the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorism branch to raid the Parliamentary Offices of a member of this House, despite such a raid being in clear contravention of the established practice of this House for over 350 years to carry out its work free of the attempt of any external authority to impinge upon that practice? Yes or No?

Brown gives usual non-answer to simple yes or no question

Cameron : Let me give the Prime Minister one more chance to give a clear and simple yes or no to either of the questions I've just asked.

Brown gives usual non-answer to simple yes or no question

Cameron : Fine. Mr Speaker, given that the Prime Minister refuses to answer the simplest of questions, and since as one of the leading members of this House he feels unable to defend his colleagues against an invasion of their Parliamentary rights, there seems little point in carrying on this charade. Good day to you.

The entire opposition front bench stands up and walks out of the Chamber

That, my friends, would seriously put the cat amongst the pigeons.

[Dominic]

Carrying on from Rugfish theme @ 15-36 why not really show a vote of no confidence and at a given moment on December 3rd with the cooperation of Clegg all file out which I feel would be unprecedented in modern times. The gesture would have an enormous effect on the media and bring home to the public how far our democracy has been eroded.

[rugfish]

Posted by: Dominic | November 29, 2008 at 15:51

Dominic, if two thirds of the common was EMPTY at PMQ's, the media would have a field day.

The only thing "we" would have to do is to have ONE message to them - "We don't truck with dictators, we're democrats"

I'm sure many bright Conservative Politicians could explain the reasoning behind such a protest and I do think the British people would feel inclined to agree.

You know, didn't David Davis actually do something similar recently - does it not amount to the same ?

[David]

I am against electing either police chiefs or judges.

I dread to think just what a can of worms that would open.

Turning judges and police chiefs into politicians is a totally daft idea. Wake up! Corruption would follow.

Keep political power where it belongs - in Parliament!

[Michael Booth]

Agree with Rugfish, Peter O and Dominic that something ought to be done to mark the general disgust felt by people from all political persuasions at this breach of parliamentary privilege and the underhand tactics used by this government. A walk-out by opposition MPs would be a non-violent protest but one that could not be ignored. 'Speak for England, David!'

[Michael Booth]

Posted by: David | November 29, 2008 at 16:12

OK I take your point about turning judges and police chiefs into politicians (though electing the latter seems to work in the USA) but my point was we need to be building a more democratic society and encouraging people to be more involved in the decision making processes which affect our lives - Parliament at the moment acts like Mr Brown's Poodle and does not function as it should in holding the executive to account.

[liz kemp]

Has anyone noticed the response and coverage from the BBC???????? Deafening?!!
Michael Crick on Newsnight even tried to insinuate that Damien Green was the villain of the piece. Unbelievable? Sadly... No
Liz Kemp

[Dave J]

"Turning judges and police chiefs into politicians is a totally daft idea. Wake up! Corruption would follow."

Is every elected county sheriff in the US corrupt? I'll take mine over Ian Blair any day of the week, and since they're both career cops, I'll leave it to you to decide which is more the politician, elections notwithstanding.

As for judges, full-on contested and even partisan elections are a bad idea, but what about retention votes? What exactly is wrong with the public being asked every 8-10 years, "shall Judge X retained in office, yes or no?" Many US states have that rather contested elections for their appellate judges: I think it provides a good middle ground between total politicization and a complete lack of accountability.

[David Belchamber]

"A walk-out by opposition MPs would be a non-violent protest but one that could not be ignored. 'Speak for England, David!'

Posted by: Michael Booth | November 29, 2008 at 16:18

If the shadow front bench did that one day, after Cameron had explained to the Speaker that there was really no point in attending PMQs as the PM never responds, it might have a dramatic impact. It would certainly make the headlines that day (unless a cabinet minister had been arrested).

Backbench Tory MPs could then use the questions to mock Brown, which he is not very keen on.

[Philip]

Further to others' comments on this, the police do seem to need more thorough deep-rooted reform than proposed so far in order to get them to concentrate more on what the public wants – cutting crime.

So not only measures such as returning from the CPS to local sergeants the power to charge for offences thus cutting form-filling, but also rooting out obsession with political correctness (which has led to an officer in one force being disciplined for seeking equal space with promotion of 'gay rights' for the traditional view!), and freeing police from political control, might be needed. On the latter, I wonder if elected police chiefs etc might not be a good thing – might it consolidate and legitimise political influence and control on the police, as well as the danger of such elections attracting extremists of various kinds who want to manipulate the police for their own ends?

[Hardcore Conservative]

I think the crux of the matter is that police chiefs (and all those that work in the service) need to be fully accountable for their actions. I am not sure if that is the same thing as being elected.

It probably is the same thing as being subject to rigorous, transparent, truly independent governance and complaints processes.

Police reform is long overdue and given the antics in this case now very urgent.

[Dominic]

Good point made by Liz Kemp@16-31 the BBC helps Zanou Labour at every turn to dumb down the countless attacks on our Democracy.
Watch Andrew Marr tomorrow who as usual will skim over anything he might feel would hurt his Labour masters democracy they do not know the meaning of the word.

[David Parker]

Well said Anna @11.24!

A little more clear thinking is needed here.
In the first place, under what legislation was Damian Green arrested? There seems to be considerable conflict here between the police and the Home Office. Some of the confusion may lie in the fact that Special Branch and the Anti-Terrorist Branch, although different, are now part of the same organisation. Presumably, both the arrest and the searches of Damian Green's office and home must have required some documentary authorisation, if so who signed these and what were the specific grounds for the authority?

If the Government should claim that the arrest and searches did not require specific written authority or search warrants (which can legally be possible in certain cases) then we have a right to know upon what grounds the police were relying upon such exemptions (other than the blessing of Lord Mandelson).

Leaving aside the purely political aspect of this case, the increasing tendency of the police to use their powers to seize computers and documents, frequently retaining these for a considerable time and sometimes destroying or rendering the computer data unusable thereafter, is a powerful political instrument which can destroy the private lives or businesses of people who displease the regime, but against whom no charges are subsequently brought.

It should also be a salutary caution that EU employees, whether police or civil servants, are exempt from civil proceedings by individuals for damages for any acts committed (however vicious or excessive) "during the course of their employment".

We therefore need to be wary for our 'civil liberties' upon two fronts. Firstly infringements directly introduced by our own Brown Shirts, and secondly by even more draconian measures introduced via the back door by EU legislation.

[Michael Booth]

Posted by: David Parker | November 29, 2008 at 17:34

Good points clearly put David, thanks

[John F Aberdeen]

"Carrying on from Rugfish theme @ 15-36 why not really show a vote of no confidence".
I have sympathy with the Tories and Liberals walking out, however I much prefer they stay in the commons and face down the enemy.
And yes Brown etal are the enemy thus proving wrong some naive people who blog on here along the lines of the other side (Zanulabour)being good sports etc.
Blair and now Brown have torn up the unwritten rule book, and, with the unwitting help of Islamist terrorists, brought in authoritarian laws ( under the guise of anit-terrorism) that stiffle our hard won freedoms.

So here is what I would like to see happen on Wednesday during the state opening of parliament.

1. The conservatives should, around 11 am when the Queen is reading the speech, release the film of Mr Green being arrested by the police and having his offices etc ransacked. This film should be placed on all websites, Conhome, Guido, Ian Dale and all the news outlets, so the journalists covering the opening can get downloads to their balckberries.
I think the contrast between the Queens opening of parliament (democracy) and this film showing an innocent MP being abused in this way (police state) would be stark.

2. When it comes to the summons for MP,s to go to the Lords,, DC etc should remain seated and refuse to march alnogside Brown and his mob to the Lords. This may seem a snub to the Queen, however the farce of her reading out what Zanulabour has written should be shown up for what it is,,At the end of the speech she says something along the lines of "May god bless the government" ,,, with respect maam I say "god dam them to hell".

3. "Peter O" I like your questioning however far from walking out,, I want them to stay and face them down,, I like the idea put forward by Douglas Carswell of moving a vote of no-confidence on the Speaker, so after Brown refuses as usual to give a straight answer,, then bring a vote of confidence against the Speaker.

I don,t know if this has ever happened before and I imagine he would try to have Carswell removed,, well then Tories etc including DC and the Lib Dems and those labour MP,s who believe in parliamnetary democracy should surround him and prevent this from happening,, I imagine that would lead to the commons being suspended.
If this happens,, they should continue to occupy the commons chamber ( for days, weeks if necessary), protecting Carswell,, until the Speaker stands down.

The Mother of Parliamnents is where the battle for democracy and freedom should be fought,, and you don,t fight battles by running away.

In another part of the world (Thailand) the Thai people have risen up in anger against a crooked, ex-Prime Minister Thaskin Shinawatra and the current PM who is a friend of the crook.
They have shut down airports etc,, put their police force to flight and being helped by the army staying in their barracks.

I salute them, they are good example to us lazy people in the UK who let our crooked ex-prime ministers and their friends get away with murder and, in the case of our troops dying in warzones because of lack of proper equipment, plus the dubious cricumstances surrounding Dr. Kellys death I mean literarlly Murder.

[Backslider]

Yes, walk out. That will show 'em. Just like when Nick Clegg led a walk out over the lack of a vote on his motion to have a vote on a referendum on leaving the EU and only having one on his, er, stated policy of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

A walk out would only work if Cameron had LibDem and significant backbench Labour support.

Anyone know when Cameron can do a point of order on State Opening day?

Or, does the Speaker still read out Parliament's privileges immediately after the Queen's Speech. That would be a good time for an intervention.

[Backslider]

I've had a look at last year's Queen's Speech. Immediately after the Speech, the Speaker makes a statement on members' privileges and duties.

I don't know whether it would be possible to ask questions of the Speaker in response to the statement, or to make a point of order or point of privilege immediately after the statement, but any of these would seem apt.

[meli]

Maybe this will be my last comment regarding politics. I don't know. If elected officials are not safe why should I assume I am? My husband is on his third tour of the gulf. My brother in law is on the Afghanistan Pakistani boarder. My other brother in law is now partially paralyzed for life due to an injury sustained while training for duty in Iraq. My nephew is finding it hard to integrate back into society after seeing his buddy blown up in the truck next to him while on duty over there. Freedom and democracy are very important to me, I guess I can say they are actually a part of who I am and feel blessed to be born into a part of the world that understands the importance of these things. As far as I was aware, my husband, and other family members have been putting themselves in danger, some have become injured physically, some mentally,and others whom I have never met have lost their lives fighting for the rights of people in other countries. Fighting to allow them to also have the right to hold their governments and leaders to account, without fear of death, arrest or imprisonment. So for me this isn't about Labour or Conservative or which party is better, this has become a really serious and worrying situation. And I am frightened over this and over the future if this is the way things are headed. What to do? I do not know. If verbal questions and protests aren't answered then a visual protest of some sort. Green ties, ribbons and armbands,worn by people from all parties in defence of Damian Green. Worn until questions are answered, and until civil liberties and freedom from opression of government are restored.

[Michael Booth]

wow meli you said it

[Lindsay Jenkins]

meli suggests green ties, ribbons and armbands,worn by people from all parties in defence of Damian Green.

Brilliant - editor what about promoting that on this site?

[Dontmakemelaugh]

Wow! What a bombastic load of hyperbole in most of the comments made above.

So British democracy is now facing collapse (that is what is left of it after the attentions of Heath,Major,Cameron - "we will be out of the EPP in a month" - and Labour). Send for David Davis the protector of our freedoms; he, I believe, was the Chief Whip when the Maastricht Treaty was forced through. Time to dust off the Magna Carta again, boys and girls.

Poor old Damian; obviously a victim of the State Police. The good news is that he will be able to sue them for false arrest and imprisonment. No one ever tried to sue the KGB under Stalin and lived to tell the tale.

If MP's are found to be acting against the law they should not expect the privilege of their position to protect them - it is against our interests. I am sure that Mr Green being a Conservative MP is entirely innocent. Anyone found to be wasting police time should be charged.

[Peter O]

One more thought for Sunday morning (before I head off to preach). How do we all feel about the name "Speaker Green"?

[Dominic]

The only good thing to come out of all this apart from Zanou Labour being incompetent with the economy they have now proved with out doubt in eleven years they are running as near a dictatorship as you can get.
It should be an easy choice at the next election Dictatorship or Freedom?

[Sally Roberts]

I will say this much for you, dontmakemelaugh, you do seem to loathe everyone equally! What IS your agenda though? I don't quite understand where you are coming from.

[Dominic]

Dontmakemelaugh Do you really think a Politician that informs the people of Britain the true figures on immigration when they have been fed lies is doing any wrong? Surely this is a Politicians job exposing a long list of lies over eleven years. When one looks at the people that have represented Britain over the last eleven years it makes feel quite ill.

[snegchui]

Stalin and KGB:
"After Stalin's death on March 5, the new leadership quickly distanced itself from the investigation into the plot."
History will tell.
"Nikita Khrushchev asserted that Stalin intended to use the doctors' trial to launch a massive party purge."
Funny that Leftists I have spoken with over last few days are giving utterance to same sentiments about Brown's future plans.

[Michael Booth]

well there you go - wasn't that fun? Mr. Speaker Martin says he didn't know the police didn't have a search warrant and that the decision to allow them into Parliament was that nasty Sergeant-at-Arms' fault...
NOT the great constitutional crisis we all thought it was...hey ho