A solid performance from David Cameron at PMQs

Jonathan Isaby's verdict: Time and again Brown refused to admit the extent of the debt into which he is taking the country and was forced to accept, under questioning from David Cameron, that the VAT rise to 18.5% had effectively been considered. A solid and confident perfomance by Cameron, whom I would deem to have won the encounter, albeit not by a huge margin.   

12.29pm Tory MP David Jones asks why the value of the £ against the $ has fallen by a quarter since July. Brown uses the same line as at a recent PMQs, when he said Lady Thatcher said that Britons should never talk down the currency.

12.28pm The Speaker prevents Brown from quoting Andrew Lansley again.

12.28pm Tory MP Douglas Carswell tries to get Brown to admit that national debt will double to £1 trillion, as David Cameron had done unsuccessfully before. But he wouldn't, merely saying that the figures were oin the PBR.

12.22pm Nicholas Soames seeks an assurance that the defence budget not be cut. Brown does not give a straight answer.

12.20pm Brown announces that April 2nd will see the next meeting of the G20 in London and that President Obama expects to be there.

12.19pm Labour backbencher Ian Davidson reopens the class war by saying those born with silver spoons in their mouths can't understand the problems of most people.

12.17pm Cleggs says Brown's answer was bluster and calls for fair tax cuts by closing pensions loopholes for millionaires, for example, saying he toyed with the hope of British people and let them down.

12.15pm Nick Clegg says Alistair Darling's PBR included the word fairness eight times, but that it wasn't fair.

12.12pm Brown's pre-prepared taunt at Cameron is that he s a "do nothing leader of a do nothing party".

12.11pm Soundbites of the day from Cameron: "This Prime Minister has given us the debt levels of Italy and the accounting practices of Enron" and "The country's going bankrupt, he's be found out and New Labour is dead".

12.10pm Cameron compares debt levels to those seen when Denis Healey was Chancellor. Brown again asserts that the Tories want to do absolutely nothing and let the recession take it course.

1 2.09pm Brown taunts Cameron with a quote from Andrew Lansley that recession "Could be good for us". Cameron points out that Lansley has apologised - unlike Brown for what he has done to the economy.

12.08pm Cameron repeats the question about doubling the national debt.

12.06pm DC asks whether Brown's plans double the national debt. Brown replies by saying that it will still be lower as a proportion of GDP than many other European countries.

12.04pm Cameron quotes the VAT document that was available on the internet. He says the party may make some FoI requests on the issue, asking if an even higher rise was considered. Brown says all kinds of things were considered and instead asks what the Toires would do. DC says he'd freeze council tax and various other schemes the Tories have announced.

12.03pm David Cameron asks why the treasury minister signed the document suggesting a VAT rise to 18.5%. Brown claims he has learnt lessons from when the Tories raised VAT in the past.

12.01pm Long-serving Tory MP Sir Peter Tapsell kicks things off by asking for an apology from Brown for wrecking the British economy. 'Tis not forthcoming...

Jonathan Isaby

Comments

[gezmond007]

Poor Dave , losing the arguement so turns to personal insults.

[Tim Montgomerie]

I'd be grateful if others would ignore gezmond007's latest comment.

gezmond007: Resident leftie, Comstock, GB£ and David_at_Home for example are welcome here because although they support other parties they are usually constructive. If you can't be constructive I'll ban you from commenting here. You've exhausted my patience.

[John]

Go for it Tim!

[Norm Brainer]

DC seemed to start not exceptionally strong again, but again got better and Brown just seemed to repeat himself about tories not doing anything when Cameron had already explained that, as if he had no other answer and couldn't move from his script.

[gezmond007]

Come on Tim , I,ll be constructive I am very worried about my business , my home , my family and that of my employees . i dont think that Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne are offering me any hope.

That,s why I am here , at least the PM is offering some hope to small business . I would give the leader of the opposition some credit if he came up with an alternative.

[Tim Montgomerie]

You have one last chance gezmond but there is no point in endless negativity.

[Norm Brainer]

at least the PM is offering some hope to small business

How? .. by lumbering them with an admin charge to fiddle with VAT right when they need it least.

Brown should have been really embarrased by the labour guy talking about "real" people and those with a "silver spoon in their mouths" - but enjoyed it. Old Labour is back.

[michele imperi]

If bankrupting the economy and raising NI once again is a help for small business be my guest Gezmond . Why don't you go the whole hog and on the wings of our new foun d optimism on the recovery start buying UK stocks and a nice BTL portfolio , after all we are on the path to economic greatness , no more boom and bust you cannot lose!!! . I am sure it will pay off.

[Stewart Geddes]

... and an increase in national insurance contributions. A tax on jobs.

Just who does the Labour party think have silver spoons in their mouths? Clearly they are not interested in governing for the whole country, only for their own vested interests while ensuring that everybody else other than they are left paying the bills.

[gezmond007]

Ok Tim , point taken , I am not always negative , I feel that the opposition front bench have various backbenchers like Ken Clarke whom I have met before and who are not being used to give an alternative.

It,s just my opinion .

[Mark M]

I actually thought this was quite a good performance from Cameron and a weak one from Brown. Cameron seemed prepared for a few of Brown's attacks (e.g., the Lansley remark).

[GB£.com]

As much as I would like to get behind Cameron, coming back with the 'freeze council tax' line as the first response when the greatest challenge we obviously face is a colossal, crippling debt burden is looking very lightweight and embarassing.

I really, really want to know what the core Tory plan (strategy, timeframe) is to pay off this debt mountain. Knowing that Labour will obviously make it worse is really not enough, as we, as voters, need reassurance, not being left with either Brown's gamble or a gamble that the Tories will have a plan once in office.

Is it too much to ask Cameron when and how he plans to pay off the debt?

I don't care if it is 10, 15 years as the books could be worse etc, etc, but I do want to know that Cameron has, in his mind, a clear strategy to pay it off (or down to a fair level) within a reasonable timeframe.

In short, I'd like an answer to the big question, not some periphery measures that may be mildly helpful.

[rugfish]

The old one liners from Brown's scriptwriters are at it again I see, standing at the ready with "personal abuse" which he can't back-up and are as far from the truth as possible.
"A do nothing party" eh ?

I mean does he mean a party which ISN'T IN GOVERNMENT and can therefore NOT "do anything", as opposed to the party which IS in government and is making a right pigs ear of it ? Is that what he means ?

I think Brown must be reading his own papers rather then those written by others for he's obviously blind to the suggestions made by Cameron and Osborne and John Redwood et al.

Just this morning in fact, JR has given a bit truth to this on his diary blog when he says :-

Quote:
__________________________________________
"I am expecting lots more Labour lies, as this budget is not a serious economic policy statement but a trap for the Tories that has misfired. It is a silly political manoeuvre that has gone wrong. Labour thought they could damage the Tories by getting us to oppose borrowing to pay for a tax cut, and then lying about our motives for doing so. Instead, they are left defending an ill judged tax proposal which most of the public is cynical about, which will not suddenly lift us out of recession. People do not welcome a tax cut which they have to pay for with huge tax rises after the election. Meanwhile they have spurned more modest but more helpful Conservative proposals to assist small business, Council taxpayers and home buyers as they lose out in the downturn. Labour’s temporary VAT cut, far from being a comfort blanket in a crisis, will prove to be a borrowing noose round all our necks".
__________________________________________

Incidentally, how is the BBC being briefed on these matters before parliament?

Gordon Brown shows "nothing" but contempt for parliament so he's the leader of a do nothing, say nothing, but show contempt party, or perhaps 'tosser' but be a bit clearer for him if he can understand that !

[Raj]

It,s just my opinion.

Except that you've said it a million times, and it's the only thing you ever say. If that's what you really think, bully for you - now leave us to get on with a real discussion.

That said your comments about being concerned with a small business are obviously nonsense in light of Norm's comment - you're a liar or very stupid in that you don't know what's good for your business and what isn't.

[resident leftie]

Labour will keep hammering away at the "do nothing" line until Cameron and Osborne are forced to come up with a comprehensive program. It's very interesting - Labour are being very bold, perhaps because they feel they have nothing to lose, and are able to offer fiscal stimulus, tax cuts, and progressive tax rises as well as far reaching cuts in public budgets to balance things up over the economic cycle. To go into an election promising an increase in the top rate of tax is bold indeed.

Cameron and Osborne are being very timid in comparison. They look like fair weather politicians unprepared for the storm, while Brown has his mac and galloshes on and is getting out the sandbags. I think the tide has turned against the "tortoise" approach. If Labour are offering spending cuts, surely C and O can, too?

Presumably, they'll get their act together in the New Year and we'll see something more substantial than the patchwork we've seen to date, which I would argue has been opportunistically driven. In times of world crisis, it's no good offering solutions more appropriate to fair weather.

[WG Graceless]

Cameron win? I'm not so sure Jonathan. The 'debt of Italy, practices of Enron' line was a good 'un but I fear that Brown's 'do nothing' triplet will stick to us (regardless of it being complete rubbish).

Score draw is closer

[a-tracy]

Re: Brown's pre-prepared taunt at Cameron is that he s a "do nothing leader of a do nothing party".

Come on then gambling Gordon call an election now, Cameron will have to tell us what he'd do then. How can he 'do' anything now when you're in charge.

[Elaina Brier]

Ok...i'm increasingly concerned that we are being portrayed as a "do nothing Party". It won't be long before our "Nasty Party" label is ressurected.

We really need an economist on our front bench team.

I'm afraid Broon made a good point when he said he was having to "give an economics lecture to the Conservatives"

Most of our front bench have no or little training in economics. We need our very own Vince Cable.

It is clear the next election will be won and lost on the economy.

Please Please strenthen the economics team

[snegchui]

The ½% rise in NI was quite clever. In discussions earlier this year, I was quite surprised how many people on this site thought NI was hypothecated, ie earmarked/ringfenced whatever for Pensions and NHS. I think Brown has played on that general assumption and therefore the NI rise is seen as a good thing boosting the NHS (without saying so) and made it very difficult for it to be challenged. Also ½ is so little, isn't it?
The National Debt reality needs bashing home. I think a bash at SIVs etc being off the balance sheets of Investment Banks being a part of the reason for their downfall and the PFI etc being off the balance sheet has to be communicated more effectively into the tabloids. People may feel there is not much more they can do, but if it isn't reaching the target audience, then it isn't reaching.

[David Cooper]

I thought the best exchange was when Brooks Newmark asked the PM if he could name any of the three countries with greater budget deficits than the UK, no doubt anticipating Hungary, Egypt or Pakistan as a correct answer (delighted to see someone making more of this point), only for Brown to say "America" and for the House to dissolve into gales of laughter when he did.

[Iain]

" Labour are being very bold "

resident leftie , only as a reckless gambler would in going for double or quits having already lost his shirt, that sort of 'blodness' isn't to be resptected!

[Norm Brainer]

I think it was a conservatives win - the few questions at the end backed up what DC was saying, and also as brown answered prettymuch the same it would devalue the 'score' of any reply he had given earlier.

Do nothing is a good thing at the moment, even if is untrue. Doing nothing is better than doing something stupid which everyone knows the labour "plan" is.
Conservatives are not in power to implement any "comprehensive plan" so it would have to be re-written at any moment when labour move the goalposts as it will no longer be on target and will be used against them by brown.
A good set of solid ideas is what it needed and that seems to be what they are building rather than just as big and as much action as possible simply to be contrary to another party, even if it's silly.

[London Tory]

Don't you just love McLabour non entities like Ian Davidson MP ?

Does the sheer irony escape him when he talks about 'silver spoons' ? His Glasgow constituency is kept afloat on taxpayers money from the South East of England.

But then again, to appreciate irony, you require a basic intellect...

[gezmond007]

Raj , my business is doing ok and I want to keep it that way and the government are offering me hope NOW .

Peoples lives , families and homes are on the line , my employees rely on their jobs and the business to survive in these troubled times. If we dont get help now we wont be in business in 2011 when the NI rise comes in .

I cant wait for 2011 I want help now to ensure my business doesn't go down and thats what the government are offering me altough I think they could go further with the reduction in corporation tax.

I,m not stupid or a liar and I dont think being rude to people because they have a different opinion is a good idea.

[Cleethorpes Rock]

gezmond must be a troll; no-one who runs a business would support this bunch of socialists.

[GB£.com]

I've got to agree with Resident Leftie, to a degree. Labour's plan is bold, but deeply flawed and wrong.

In comparison, well, it is not possible to make a comparison. The difference so far is too minor to judge. We don't even know now if Cameron's 'public sector growing more slowly' approach is tougher or weaker than those announced by Darling this week as Cameron hasn't told us.

How poor is that?

a-tracy: The time between calling and holding a GE is so short, it is not enough time for the public to really digest the scale of change that is needed. The Tories should be making their clear case NOW to avoid a Labour last-minute trick/bribe etc that could just inch it for them.

[gezmond007]

gezmond must be a troll; no-one who runs a business would support this bunch of socialists.

Posted by: Cleethorpes Rock | November 26, 2008 at 13:01

I assume you mean people like Sir Alan Sugar !

[Ian Bennett]

At best a scoredraw -myfears proved correct.

DC harbours too long on VAT allowing Brown to trot back figures - factual figures outlining how we put up VAT!

dc is frighteningly ONE DIMENSIONAL AT PMQ's and the more angry he becomes the more one dimensional he seems!

Far better IMHO to ask 3 or 4 questions and then "come back" on a slightly different topic!

[James]

I was curious about that 'merica' answer from Brown.

Have they overtaken us, is was itt a barefaced lie?

[Dorian the Englandism put on hold until future notice unless someone belts me on the heed with an un]

'gezmond007: Resident leftie, Comstock, GB£ and David_at_Home for example'

I'm a bit of a single-issue monkey me, albeit within a Tory context, but the imminent slide into oblivion rather trivialises my single issue. It is time to unite and put aside other things for a more appropriate future context.

I will cease to babble on about England as others may care to put aside the EU, mass immigration and other divisive shades of told you so and listen to me not least because the ravages of a recession tend to ratchet up the blaming of the 'other' and that is a cesspit for the BNP to paddle about in, not the Conservative party.

I think that we are agreed that Ozzie and David have the beginnings of the makings of the anger that we all share with what has just been done to the UK. It ain't the squad I'd choose or the formation but it is our squad so let's go rip apart the Labour party.

Unleash hell (or at least some quite long words and determined finger pointing).

[James]

(Oops - that should be 'America')

[Raj]

I,m not stupid or a liar and I dont think being rude to people because they have a different opinion is a good idea

It's not because you have a different opinion, it's because you have just one opinion that you keep repeating AND you think that having to spend money to change your VAT is a good idea.

[Patsy Sergeant]

Thank you Tim!

I wonder how long it WOULD(not will one hopes!) take for a Labour government to stop using a previous government as an excuse for any area of the economy, society etc: etc: not being 'fit for purpose' under their (Labour) governance? So far with this lot it has been ELEVEN YEARS! with the same mantra!!!

Judging by the reaction of absolutely NON-political friends of mine, when a Labour MP is quoted using that cop-out mantra - from wanting to throw something at the TV, to screwing up their faces in rage!, I think that Mr. Brown had better think seriously about changing the record on that particular mantra (about blaming a previous Tory government), if he doesn't, as times get tougher, people are NOT going to say - 'Its the fault of those Tories in 199.... NO!!!, they are going to say 'Why doesn't THIS Prime Minister - BROWN, get his finger out, STOP living in the past, and start to DO something about the men in the street who are losing their jobs - week after week. THEY do have a work ethic, and 5p here or £25 there is not what they need, they need JOBS, the last think they want is to become part of the 'Benefit Brigade'. After all it has been done before, admittedly in America!

[rugfish]

Fiddling with VAT won't save the economy.
It's money into pockets is what's needed and that means cuts in income tax or refunds.

Why is there no argument to cut the government's apending plans on ID Cards, Air Craft carriers, NHS computers, Heathrow, getting back the EU rebate by scrapping the Lisbon Treaty, and adding all this and more to the government's one declared savings of £5 billion, as a means to pay for it ???

What on earth is wrong with our politicians when they cannot see the very thing in front of their own eyes and clobber the government with it ?

Simple question:

"Why don't you cut out all the garbage plans you've made Gordon and give the country a tax break with all the recycling you can do" - "Surely you being the worlds best self appointed economic hero can see the simplicity of making savings elsewhere on your ludicrous plans to make the people and our country better off" ???

I mean you would know this so it's hardly worth saying Gordon - surely ???

[Bexie]

The uber big businesses do since Zanulab passes beneficial standards and licence legislation that freezes small competition out of the market.

have a look at freestudents.blogspot.com for a really good analysis of this behaviour (albeit from over the pond)

re the various trolls saying this is good for business, I am unsure what planet they are on. If you are a freelancer or contractor working for HMG then I could understand, it is a small change on your weekly invoice

If on the otherhand you are a resteranteur or small shopkeeper, all your prices have to be adjusted, all your lables, your tills reprogrammed and staff costs adjusted. It is not simply a pain, it is very costly. If you do not get that then clearly your not a businessperson.

[gezmond007]

Yes Raj I actually think that spending money to change my vat is a help as this reduction will sell more stock so anything however small will help .

i agree it is a pain of a job to do this but I,ll manage and hopefully survive.

[Mark Hudson]

At the risk of getting myself banned by Tim or quoted by The Sunday Times, may I suggest that those of us on here are far politically minded than the average person and, I am afraid, more likely to look at this through a party political lense.

The vast majority (98%+) of the public do not belong to a political party and - let's be honest- often reluctantly vote at election time. The profound economic events, however, are very real and people are going to be far more interested in solutions and their delivery than yah-boo politics. Brown has created an appaling economic maelstrom, but screaming at him is not going to change a lot of opinions. Similarly, Cameron-Osbourne being right at the moment may only count for a few opinion poll points for a short while.

This is an economic situation, the likes of which none of us has seen. We need to be far more restrained in our assumptions and pragmatic in our sense of what this will mean politically.

[Cleethorpes Rock]

Sugar is a Thatcherite who says he supports Labour because they knighted him and gave him an advisory job.

[Raj]

Why is there no argument to cut the government's apending plans on....Air Craft carriers

Probably because without them there will be no point in having the Royal Navy.

[Western Star]

Mark Hudson makes a fair point - but the fact is that people are angry! Having said that, the fact that so few people bother to turn out at Election time is shameful. Compare and contrast that with the United States where people queued for up to seven hours to have their say!

[Patsy Sergeant]

Absolutely agree a-tracy @ 12.44 'How can he (Cameron) 'do' anything NOW when you are in charge.'

'Is it too much to ask Cameron when and why he plans to pay off the debt?.' GB£etc: - Err, Mr. Cameron is NOT in charge CGB£etc:, as you well know, just address the question to the proper MP i.e. PM!

[gezmond007]

Sugar is a Thatcherite who says he supports Labour because they knighted him and gave him an advisory job.

Posted by: Cleethorpes Rock | November 26, 2008 at 13:27

Oh , thats why recently on TV he said that Gordon Brown was doing a great job and people should get behind his policies. Obviously a Thatcherite.

[Andrew Woodman]

When Brown stated he had to give Cameron lectures about Economics, I wish he'd come back with

'I don’t think someone who thinks he abolished the business and economic cycle, and without a Economics qualification to his name has any right to give anyone an economics lecture.'

As well, maybe next week.

[Andrew Woodman]

'Oh , thats why recently on TV he said that Gordon Brown was doing a great job and people should get behind his policies. Obviously a Thatcherite.'

I think them Government Viglen contracts have more to do with it than anything.

[Raj]

Yes Raj I actually think that spending money to change my vat is a help as this reduction will sell more stock so anything however small will help.

With prices already being discounted by so much a tiny reduction in VAT won't make people more likely to buy goods. So you are unlikely to increase your sales and will have to face the cost of changing VAT. Thus you really are a liar or stupid.

QED.

[gezmond007]

You make yourself look silly with your crude remarks , theres no hope for you Raj .

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Patsy Sergeant | November 26, 2008 at 13:29

'Is it too much to ask Cameron when and why he plans to pay off the debt?.' GB£etc: - Err, Mr. Cameron is NOT in charge CGB£etc:, as you well know, just address the question to the proper MP i.e. PM!

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the opposition what they would do instead, do you? An effective critique of the government is vital, but so is an alternative plan.

[Norm Brainer]

Yes Raj I actually think that spending money to change my vat is a help as this reduction will sell more stock so anything however small will help .

Oh come on.
I'm not saying you are lying, but your posts read like a person acting the part of what a labour MP thinks a business man is.

If you work out how much the change will cost to implement, work out how much extra stock you would have to shift to cover that and for many (most?) small businesses or those with low margins it's going to be an unrealistic increase in sales that are needed.
So you get nothing now but a bill, followed by a hit later - I'm sure AMS (who is more famous for his failures really) would even agree that it isn't a good plan.

[Raj]

gezmond, my remarks are clear and concise. That you have no come-back proves my point. Otherwise please explain how I'm wrong - if you really do run a successful business and have an ounce of business knowledge you should be able to do that.

[GB£.com]

Patsy that is a pathetic response!

Cameron has already very publicly said he will grow the public sector more slowly than Labour's pre-PBR plans, but now Labour have revised their public sector growth plans sharply downwards, we have not heard any update from Cameron.

So it is feasible that Labour's announcement involves a more severe cut in public sector growth than Cameron was planning, meaning that Cameron could be planning to spend more than Labour.

I very much hope not, and doubt it, but we simply do not know because there has been no update from CCHQ since the PBR.

That is poor. Right now, we no longer no if the Tories will be spending more or less on public sector growth than Labour!

[pp]

gezmond007 I beleive you are a troll. I may be wrong and/or you may not care what I think - if so then so be it.

If not - can you tell me what type of products you sell, and what you expect the vat cut to do to your sales volumes/values?

Most of my retail clients price to the nearest .50 or .99 above a certain margin for the product range - 2% won't make any difference -- certainly not enough to increase sales. Just a few extra pence in their pocket on the sales they do make (which they would have made anyway).

If that was the intention, then brown would have done better to send every vat registered business a cheque for 15% of their vat bill for last year - then each business could decide how best to spend it for themselves.

[Simon Denis]

First, the Tories do not propose "doing nothing". They propose responding to a monetary crisis with monetary measures. Second, Brown's solution is strictly analogous to trying to get out of a hole by tunneling towards the earth's core. Even the supporters of this hysterical "solution" have been stunned by the revelations it has involved and the sums of money so irresponsibly thrown around. There is no way that a genuine recovery can take place on this model. The only result will be a collapse in the buying power of millions of harmless creatures on fixed incomes. Brown shouldn't merely be thrown out; he should be impeached.

[david1]

Don't think either won, although it was Brown who got in the best, 'dig' reminding the electorate as to which party, when in government, had actually raised VAT, after saying they wouldn't.

[Dean of Sherwood]

I have noticed that everytime your commentator says that David won but by not much, I go on PoliticsHome and thier panel gives it to Brown.I know this is Conservativehome,however,when was the last time it was posted Brown had won?Is it worth this actually coming out every week, if no matter what has been said, it is always stated that Dave has won

[David_at_Home]

'gezmond007: Resident leftie, Comstock, GB£ and David_at_Home for example'

Anyway, for once I agree with Resident Leftie. If they are to be worthy of the endorsement of the electorate, Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne need to come up with an alternative believable strategy for the economy and they need to do this very soon. Just scoring points will not do; the situation is much too serious for that.

[London Tory]

Simon

All we need to do is robotically repeat the mantra "Labour's tax bombshell". I hope Osborne trumpets this line from the rooftops in Parliament during today's debate. I want to hear EVERY one of our spokesman repeating it, day after day.

The phrase knaws deep at the Labour psyche. I saw the odious Mr Fiona Millar on TV earlier, he visibly squirmed when the phrase was mentioned.

[Raj]

pp, he has crawled back into his hole - you will not see him again on this thread and he will pretend none of us asked him our questions when he reappears.

[Raj]

Is it worth this actually coming out every week, if no matter what has been said, it is always stated that Dave has won

Actually, Dean, a week or two ago Jonathan said it was a draw. Are you sure you really pay attention?

[Patsy Sergeant]

resident leftie @ 13.40 - I don't think it is at all unreasonable to ask AN opposition party what they MIGHT do instead. I notice YOUR prime minister doesn't criticise Vince Cable for saying that he would target the very poorest, full stop (in essence, as I can't remember verbatim1). And that is an area that BROWN regards as HIS special domain - targetting the poor, hummm.

No, the only person he targets is Cameron, and having just watched his performance, he cames across as a vindictive, grudge-bearing sulk of a man, which I would say is courtesy of Alistair Campbell, since that is how HE comes across, whenever he is interviewed!!!

Gordon Brown is NOT attacking Mr. Cameron's suggestions for policies, he is attacking the man - the man's character, and just like once - or twice - before, it is attempting to perform a character assassination of David Cameron, as Alistair Campbell performed before via Blair on William Hague and Iain Duncan Smith. No wonder Campbell begins to look like a bitter and twisted almost-has-been, almost because he never did quite 'make it' as he obviously thought he should have done!

Mr. Brown takes such very obvious GLEE, in being vindictive towards Mr. Cameron - and it seems to be increasing - so he had better watch out, because an 'attitude' and a type of behaviour, can also develop a momentum of its own, and momenta, like snowballs and avalanches gather speed as they progress - remember the 'momentum' surrounding Princess Diana in the weeks before her car accident??... Mr. Brown should TRY to behave with a bit more dignity, as befitting a Prime Minister!!!!!

[gezmond007]

Your right pp and Raj , what counts to me is my people my business and my family , your entitled to your opinion which is your right and I am entitled to mine. It,s called democracy .

If that was the intention, then brown would have done better to send every vat registered business a cheque for 15% of their vat bill for last year - then each business could decide how best to spend it for themselves.

Posted by: pp | November 26, 2008 at 13:5

PP I agree with you on this point but he didn't so we have to make the best of what's on offer . I know it,s not going to make me a fortune but it,s going the right way. I just wish it was for a longer period of time.

[Mark Hudson]

Patsy, I think you need to take a couple of valium. Cameron, after all, said he wanted to see an end to Punch & Judy politics. He is currently one of its foremost exponents.

I have a suspicion that the general public is going to continue to regard politicians as a complete waste of time, if all this is going to boil down to is a he said this, he said that.

One of the greatest sadnesses to me of our UK democracy is that our politicians are so divorced from reality and behave like children. To do so in current circumstances is as irresponsible as it is pathetic.

Personally, I would just like a man (or woman!) with a plan that is well thought out, costed, strategically positioned and intelligently communicated. When so much of my current (and from 2011, vastly increased) tax is taken to employ this army of second rate politicians and bureaucrats, is there not one who can fulfil this small request?

[GB£.com]

Patsy,
Have you not noticed the familiar posts from those here who are not Tory party members but want to kick out Brown?

We would like to know what Mr Cameron plans to do. It seems like a fair question for the electorate to ask.

Does anyone here know if Cameron plans to increase public sector spending slower than the new sharply reduced government figures?

Again, it seems like a fair question.

[Dean of Sherwood]

Oh that makes it alright then Raj,if something independent like PoliticsHome is giving it to Brown,whilst we are calling it a draw,it must be ok.

Surely it would be better to have a balanced view on PMQ's rather than one from our own.How is he supposed to improve when it is stated on here everything is hunky dory whilst in the real word it keep saying that Brown is getting the better of him in the last few months?

[resident leftie]

Patsy, I think we can both agree that the LibDems needs a good kicking once in a while, but give Brown credit - he know who the real opposition are. Get used to the "Do Nothing Party" until the Tories have a policy.

Bring back the Hares!

[Jamie]

"I thought the best exchange was when Brooks Newmark asked the PM if he could name any of the three countries with greater budget deficits than the UK, no doubt anticipating Hungary, Egypt or Pakistan as a correct answer (delighted to see someone making more of this point), only for Brown to say "America" and for the House to dissolve into gales of laughter when he did.

Posted by: David Cooper | November 26, 2008 at 12:47"

Mr Cooper, I don't know if you listened to the exchanges on radio rather than watching on TV, but the "gales of laughter" were coming from the Labour side at Mr Newmark reaction to being put in his place. Had Mr Newmark wanted to elicit Hungary, Egypt or Pakistan as the Prime Minister's answers he ought to have been more careful with the wording of his question, i.e. asking with reference to the proportion of GDP. As Mr Newmark referred only to largest (total) budget deficit, Brown's answer of America was perfectly valid and correct.

[Simon R]

This thread is so full of trolls it's sickening. Gezmond007, if you ran a small business, you'd be quite indignant, as you'd have to spend money and use valuable time in the run up to Christmas changing all your paperwork to reflect the changes in VAT, all for a highly doubtful boost in consumer spending. That's what a small business owner who I know has told me.

I'm not a tribal Conservative, I'm a pragmatist. Although Brown has caused this mess, I was more than ready to hear his plan for getting us out of it, and if it were better than what was being offered than the Conservatives, I would not hesitate to support it. Now I've heard his 'plan' my utter disgust for this Mickey Mouse administration has only increased. Anyone who thinks that the way out of this recession is to get people to buy more Japanese flat screen TV's or Swedish flat pack furniture over the Christmas period is clearly living on another planet.

[pp]

gezmond007: you didn't answer my question(s), maybe you would like to try again?

As has been commented elsewhere in this thread, you seem to be doing a poor impression of someone who runs a small business, rather than being someone who actually does.

The pennies it delivers are useless, the national debt it causes is massively damaging - dumping this long term debt on our chidren (and grand children) is akin to causing massive 'envionmental damage' -- everyone should want to leave things better than they found them.

[David Galea]

Paxman-style "hey opposition political party, why don't you fire all your big guns now, when you are not in power, so we can unfairly rip you apart and help you lose the next election?" criticisms grate a bit.

Announcing major policies without an imminent election having been called is like a body of troops firing all of its ammunition into the sky before a battle.

I can understand criticism of the Conservatives, but this particular criticism is destructive rather than constructive. Save it for a party dumb enough to fall for it, the Liberal Democrats.

The Conservatives are a do nothing party because Brown won't call the election. When the election is called, the Conservatives can safely announce their surprisingly common sense policies and plans for running the country sensibly in an attractive manifesto. Then we can vote for them and make them the "can do" party. I can't wait.

[Jamie]

Interesting snippet from today's Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-pulling-in-more-donations-than-tories-1036007.html

[gezmond007]

Simon I am Indignant that Dave and George are not coming up with an alternative plan , if only they would say something so people could make a judgement on their policy .

I run a small business not Marks and Spencer , I will be able to change the necessary paperwork myself which is underway as we speak and will take a day only.

[Ian Bennett]

David- I must congratulate you - another 650157 nice ones from Michael Ashcroft -all targetted on those must win marginals I hope!!

Do we get VAT relief LOL!

[GB£.com]

"Announcing major policies without an imminent election having been called is like a body of troops firing all of its ammunition into the sky before a battle."

David, Cameron has already done it! He held a press conference to say that he would increase the public sector spend slower than Labour's pre-PBR figures.

Labour's PBR came out with new, severely reduced numbers as Andrew Lilico pointed out.

It is therefore perfectly reasonable to ask if Cameron's publicly declared policy still applies!

Why are all the calm, considered posts coming from non-party members interested in voting tory, and the hysterics coming from party members?

[gezmond007]

everyone should want to leave things better than they found them.

Posted by: pp | November 26, 2008 at 14:37

I agree PP and so do I , I support you on this point but I have responsibility to my staff and her indoors !

People can think what they like about me but I care about our country and the people who are desperate for help in these troubled times.

I just wish there was a credible opposition but until the Tories tell us what they would do they will not get my support.

I'm not asking for the world.

[gezmond007]

Got to go now , VAT forms to fill in !

[pp]

gezmond007:

I see you still have no answers to my orginal questions. I won't bore other participants by conversing with you further.

[Malcolm Dunn]

Until next week eh Gezmond? We'll have to wait for the news tonight before we know who really 'won' PMQs. Hardly anyone watches it live, most people will simply see the 2 minute report on the news.
Cameron usually 'wins' these but Browns refusal to answer questions is getting beyond a joke. A half decent speaker who is supposed to ensure the dignity of Parliament not just one party would not let him get away with it.

[a-tracy]

Gezmond have you read the party website information at http://www.conservatives.com/Policy.aspx?

Personally I'd prefer a 1% Employers NI drop (or more) for all businesses, there should be no tax on creating jobs and if as said above it isn't hypothecated for health and pensions of our workers then it shouldn't be there.
GB.com (Is it you Chad? if so please change your name back), I disagree six months is more than adequate time for all parties to announce what they would do instead, after all who knows what the state of play will be in 18 months time. When lean times come around you have to improvise quickly, businesses that set out their strategic plans 18 months ago will have to use their imagination and make changes promptly not stick to statements and plans made in different times. DC did announce a business tax holiday for struggling SME's over a week ago.

[a-tracy]

woops

over a week ago and that got poached without any hat tip to the supplier of the policy.

[gezmond007]

Thanks A-Tracy i'll check it out .

[GB£.com]

Why is it so hard to ask if a firm policy announced just a few days ago, following a change in the numbers that policy referred to, still applies?

We all (myself included) warmly welcomed the policy announcement the other day.

Is it still in place? I am finding a lack of a simple yes or no on this worrying.

You had a policy last week. Is it still policy this week?

[Raj]

if something independent like PoliticsHome is giving it to Brown,whilst we are calling it a draw,it must be ok

What "organisation of authorising independence" has declared that it is independent? The BBC is supposed to be independent - is it?

How is he supposed to improve when it is stated on here everything is hunky dory whilst in the real word it keep saying that Brown is getting the better of him in the last few months?

a) Politicshome is one website, not the whole world.
b) Anyone with their heads screwed on cannot say that Brown ignoring difficult questions and repeating the same tired comments counts as a win.
c) What matters is how it gets reported on the news and the public sees it, not what pundits think.

[Raj]

gezmond, why can't you answer simple questions like the ones posed by myself and pp? Are you a coward and ashamed that you have been exposed as a liar or a dimwit?

[pp]

You know tory policy doesn't matter too much to me -- as long as the policies are designed and implemented to support tory principals thats fine by me.

VAT? Income Tax? NI? -- who cares until they are in a position to implement it? Things change, maybe one will be better than the other at the time -- I hope they would make the best decision at the time, rather that blindly following dogma - loony left style.

Anyone who could even consider voting for brown/labour is beyond the pail in my eyes -- certianly not worth pandering to.

What was browns policy on VAT before the PBR? Well aparantly he says it changed the friday before publication -- he has all the info at his fingertips, and he can't make up his mind until the last second (wonder if he has changed his mind again? oops too late). Given that Browns policy is undefined until implementation, what do you expect from an opposition? - policy set in stone years before possible implementation, do me a favour...

[pp]

OUCH the VAT change makes my small company worse off - another stealth tax rise.

Working on 'flat rate VAT' - the government have rounded everything to the nearest half a percent in their favour...

Instead of handing over 11.15%, HMRC want me to hand over 11.5%

Real People running Real Businesses, are being shafted - whatever the protestations of the people Pretending to run businesses say...

[Antony]

DC and GO need to come up with something that will stick to Brown. Earlier in the year the tab 'Ditherer' was very successful. He needs to be hit more with responsibility for having wrecked the economy in such a way that he can't spend time claiming credit for his muddled efforts to save it. WOULD WE GIVE AN AWARD TO AN ARSONIST FOR HELPING PUT OUT A FIRE WHICH HE HAD STARTED?

[David Belchamber]

I have given up watching PMQs; it is a waste of time, as the PM only answers the stool pigeon questions.

Maybe Cameron should stand up one day and say instead of asking his first question:

"Valuable parliamentary time is devoted once a week to questions to the prime minister. As he is unable or unwilling to answer a single one, I will not ask any".

Perhaps the speaker would then have a word with the PM.

[David Galea]

GB£.com, I'm fine with the criticism of Cameron. It's a good thing. I'm just sick of people telling him to reveal all of his major policies now. I should have written "Announcing all major policies", sorry.

Well placed criticism of political parties is a great thing, for example "how many voters can a political party with a narrow-minded single-issue name, the UK Independence Party, expect to attract regardless of its policies?" or "why doesn't UKIP change its name to the British Party or something like that, then feature euroscepticism as a major policy in a set of other great policies to run the country well".

[StevenAdams]

It IS unreasonable to say "what would you do instead", as all too often that question is posed when the Tory MP tasked with answering has the sum-total of 35 seconds to do so. The public finances are in a dire mess, and the Conservatives will have to overhaul many, many things when in power. Current 'targets' includs the education system, the NHS, funding of local government, national debt, proper funding of the military etc etc etc. But, they will be taking over a Labour gift of a hell hole.

At the end of the day, dealing with this mess will take long-term discipline, tax restraint, entrepreneurial incentives etc. Once these principles are exercised then the public finances will be brought back into shape... but this is not a sexy media-happy line. They want tax cuts/waste cuts etc etc etc. The fact is, the longer Brown is allowed to peddle his rubbish about the robustness of the UK economy, when he's clearly destroyed it, the longer he's allowed to practice his tax and spend economics, the more damage he will do.

This spending spree, though media-kind, is a long term noose that will takes years of discipline to undo.