Cameron and Brown clash at PMQs over Baby P

Jonathan Isaby's verdict: A relatively rowdy session during which the Speaker had to slap down Labour MPs for barracking David Cameron as he raised a very serious point about the investigation into children's services at Haringey council. Brown's decision to accuse Cameron of making party political points clearly angered Cameron, and seemed to persuade him to drop his questions about the economy in favour of pursuing the points on Haringey. Brown failed to answer the substantive point every time it was put and allowed Cameron to come out on top.

12.29pm Tory 1922 committee chairman Sir Michael Spicer asks a brilliant, short, sharp question: "What was the economic theory behind the end of boom and bust?" Brown's reply was waffle.

12.28pm Brown mocks George Osborne and Tory policy over the fuel duty stabiliser in answer to a patsy question from Labour's Mark Todd.

12.27pm Labour backbencher Andy Slaughter raises his concerns about the third runway at Heathrow, with Brown saying that yesterday's Commons debate was an important opportunity to debate the issues.

12.26pm Tory James Arbuthnot raises the issue of the post office credit account and Brown claims the Government is doing all they can to support the Post Office network.

12.24pm Lib Dem Greg Mulholland highlights the level of funding of research into dementia as "appalling" but Brown claims that more money is being invested in all kinds of medical research.

12.20pm The SNP's Angus Roberston asks for British troops to be withdrawn from Iraq and for an inquiry into the war.

12.18pm Lib Dem Bob Russell asks about giving British residency rights to Gurkhas; Brown says the Government is studying the recent high court judgment on the issue.

12.17pm Labour MP Claire Curtis-Thomas expresses disappointment that Lord Mandelson has withdrawn an offer to meet her and constituents to discuss an issue; Brown says he is sure Mandelson would be happy to see her.

12.16pm Clegg repeats his demand for tax cuts for ordinary people; Brown repeats his attack on Lib Dem policy.

12.15pm Nick Clegg asks why anyone should believe what Gordon Brown says on tax. Brown says that if he'd listened to the Lib Dems, he'd be cutting public spending by £20 billion this year.

12.13pm Cameron again asks the substantive question as to whether it is wrong for someone to be investigating their own department's conduct. Brown again fails to give a straight answer to the question.

12.11pm The Speaker has to call for order as Cameron again demands Brown withdraw the accusation that Cameron was playing party politics.   

12.08pm Brown fails to give a straight answer, instead accusing Cameron of trying to make it into a patry political issue. Cameron calls that remark "cheap" and asks Brown to withdraw it.

12.05pm Cameron asks about the Baby P case, wondering if Brown agrees that it is unacceptable that the person in charge of the childrens' services department is investigating her own department. Brown prevaricates and Cameron attempts to ask the question a third time.

12.04pm Cameron: "Only the Prime Minister could be quite so smug on the day that 142,000 people lost their jobs"

12pm Tory Richard Ottaway asked if Gordon Brown would buck the historical trend and that unemployment would be lower when Labour leave office than when they came to office. Brown claimed to have created 3 million jobs and mocked the Tories for having previously described unemployment as being "a price worth paying".

Comments

[Deborah]

My goodness the trolls were out today.

[Patsy Sergeant]

I have been out until now, but was about to put a comment on this subject on the main thread, but decided to check first....

If Mr. Brown wants to 'curry favour' with the electorate, as senior politicians frequently do - most definitely Mr. Brown among them! He should SUSPEND and then investigate WHY Ms. Shoesmith managed TWO related departments in one area.

This is a perfect example of the meaningless bureaucracy that this Labour government has been obssessed with blighting our country with, in local and national government!

The fact that MS Shoesmith is so convinced that she should NOT take any responsibility for what has happened, indicates very sharply what the weaknesses are likely to be in the Haringey Children's Care set-up!!!

One wonders whether it is possible to prove that social workers actually DO visit the at-risk children that they are alocated, maybe they do have to 'sign-off', but that doesn't necessarily mean anything!!

Maybe the paediatrician involved should return to Saudi Arabia her home country apparently, where she can concentrate on her religion first, and her job second!

Mr. Prime Minister Brown, you like to control many aspects of our life these days, WELL here is something that you can DO something worthwhile about - AND WE DO NOT WANT AN INQUIRY WHICH IS COSTLY AND MEANINGLESS, AND ACHIEVES NOTHING!!!

[Ross.Warren]

Deborah;

"My goodness the trolls were out today."

I have actually taken the trouble to read this thread,the only troll like comment seems to be yours.

[snegchui]

I saw the Newsnight bit on this last night, and from that I am shocked but not surprised at today's outcome.
Paxman was sneering that Newsnight would set a high barrier of informed discourse on the matter, as opposed to the baying media. He then trotted out 2 individuals who spent their time shiftily defending the profession, on the grounds it looked like to me , if people really find out what was going on there, we are all in trouble.
I have reached a new level of contempt for Paxman and the "Professionals".
In the debate today, it was right to lose the temper. This is the Government that had as its Minister For Children, Margaret Hodge who oversaw wide-scale abuse of children at Islington, and when called on it, tried to abuse her Govt position to label her accuser mentally unbalanced.
Reforms were supposed to happen after Victoria Climbie, the legions trot outsaying there have been improvements, well obviously not good enough improvement.
For the Councils own staff to investigate, and as far as I can make out at present, clear all staff to the degree that nobody loses their job or is prosecuted is outrageous. Outrage means losing your temper and climbing in there.
If they are underfunded and overworked, then that fact needs to be clearly extracted and placed in front off centarl Govt and addressed, not just swept under the carpet and more of the same.
An open and independent inquiry is a minimum. Maybe taking over Haringey Council Children's Services as a failed council service will be appropriate.
Vut to have professionals sitting aroumd shrugging their shoulders is not appropriate, and nor is it appropriate that the PM should claim this is a prty political attack.

[Ross Warren]

People who are not in control of their emotions
make bad decisions. That’s not an opinion it’s a cold hard fact. The fact is David Cameron has appeared to be angry on a number of occasions recently.
The most notable being the night that the House Republicans held up the bail out. That lack of emotional control frightens me. The person who commented that “if the Kitchen is to hot” is right. We don’t need a loose cannon on the Deck and its about time he realized as much.

[pp]

Brown isn't very clever...

The plan for the day was for the bank of england to support borrow and spend; Brown to bang on about it all through PMQ's; Darling announces date for pre-budget report (which will no doubt be full of borrow and spend).

However, Browns inability to be think quickly or be decisive meant that he missed getting PMQ's onto the economy - oops.

p.s. Its on Monday - so they have time to collate public reaction to everything and chose whatever they think will make them look good and the tories look bad - the state of the economy won't come into it.

[Thge Bishops Wife]

snegchui

"I have reached a new level of contempt for Paxman and the "Professionals" "

I have to agree with you Paxman used to be one of the more intelligent of the presenters at the BBC, but in recent years he seems to have become a parody of his former self. I to dislike the way he sneers at anyone who attempts to argue with his assessment of an issue.

[David (One of many)]

Ross, I think Cameron was in full control of his emotions today. He got angry when he had every right to get angry. I would have punched Brown in the face and walked out of the room. Maybe that's why I'm not PM, but emotion in most cases - and particularly in ones like this - is a good thing to have. Brown's only emotional state revolves around himself; hence the broken phones, resigning secretaries, hanging up the phone on George Osborne and swearing at Blair in front of the Cabinet. And also hence why he was so lost today.

[Patsy Sergeant]

Well I would have liked to have seen David Cameron angry on this subject!!! Or Brown's attitude in general come to that!

John @ 14.34 - so you got the old Eton dig in - wow how original! Feel better now? You could perhaps follow your OWN recommendation and get a bit more 'mature' or 'grown-up' and less of the envious, spiteful school boy!!

[Deborah]

Ross Warren,
My computer skipped the previous page, which seems relatively troll free. The first page looks full of trolls

For the record, DC was angry for good reason. A child has died in horrific circumstances and Gordon Brown, refusing to answer a sensible question, made a cheap personal comment to politicise it.

DC also recognises - like the majority of the public - that childrens services will never get better until people are forced to take responsibility for their actions. More children will die unless this matter is addressed but Gordon Brown refused to take it seriously. The Victoria Climbie inquiry has not worked. We don't need another enormous inquiry which excuses everybody because the systems didn't work, and introduces a new set of boxes to tick so people can protect their own backsides. Senior managers need to be seen to take responsibility for their failures. Gordon Brown's inquiry will simply allow everybody to move on.

Importantly - whilst angry, DC remained in control. That is a good sign.

[m dowding]

DC was justifiably angry. This Government and Brown in particular, continue to destroy this Country. Brown showed clearly that EVERYTHING is about Brown and The Liebore Party. Every socialist in the land should hang their head in shame at what we have become over the last ten years. There is never, ever an admission of failure or remorse. The Boss of Haringey should be prosecuted for incompetent negligence and Brown resign for allowing this to happen yet again.

[m dowding]

Deborah;

"My goodness the trolls were out today."

I have actually taken the trouble to read this thread,the only troll like comment seems to be yours.

Posted by: Ross.Warren | November 12, 2008 at 16:14

And now yours? They are everwhere like the economic contagion Brown has brought the world.

[Ross. Warren]

"I would have punched Brown in the face"

Perhaps that would be the natural thing to do, but it would be counter productive and you would be in error.

Politics is the game of rhetoric not emotional outbursts. As it is DC is acknowledged by all to have been visible angry. That may be ok in a public bar, but its not really expectable from the leader of her majesties opposition. I would ask you all to stop attempting to justify his ill temper and tell him in no uncertain terms to get a grip

[Pete]

Wales... anthem.

Isn't it time to forgive Redwood his one big Gaff? We need his brains badly.

Posted by: The Bishops Wife | November 12, 2008 at 12:39

'We' - meaning who exactly? Draper & Co?

Or is it just you and 'Chris Blore'?

[m dowding]

Ross Warren, old friend and heavy drinking mate of......................Dolly Draper?

[MrB]

Why isn't it expectable from the Leader of the Opposition? Where is this rule or even convention?

Far more terrible behaviour was displayed by Brown. I would agree with you if Cameron had started screaming or flailing about, but it was controlled anger.

[James Maskell]

Looking at the BBC web highlights, I see nothing wrong. When Brown said the party political comment (in my opinion in very poor taste since Cameron said nothing of party politics) Cameron played it very quietly and yet aggressively too. It was an understated anger from the looks of it. I see a Cameron win today.

Brown will be hit because of the party political comment, as if any criticism of those who should have been watching is based upon politics rather than their giving a damn. No one thinks this is something to make party politics of.

Whilst saying that Id like to point out the difficult situation this exposes. What is in the childs best interests is a very difficult thing to judge. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and of course everyones now agreed that Baby P should have been taken into care as soon as this was found to be happening, but at the time it would be very hard to justify such action because unless you can prove it, you cant argue for such a course of action.

[Raj]

I would ask you all to stop attempting to justify his ill temper and tell him in no uncertain terms to get a grip

He has a firm grip, but he is a human being. That's what sets him apart from "Robot Brown". He is more than justified in getting annoyed sometimes, and the public has a right to see that their potential leader cares about something.

This isn't Queensbury's Rules, especially if the other guy wants to fight dirty from time-to-time.

[Faceless Bureaucrat]

My, my - lots of pro-McDoom comments on here trying to bury DC for showing emotion when the story is Brown's inability to even understand what the word means. Has 'Dolly' been on a recruiting drive, I wonder?...

[snegchui]

BBC News has Balls in a tizzie saying independent review will take place over next two weeks, and poor practises already identified.
Let us keep an eye on it, the Hutton inquiry springs to mind.

[Eveleigh Moore-Dutton]

It seems to me that Brown can still make his own lip quiver when talking about the loss of vision in one of his eyes but when the death and suffering of a little defenceless boy is discussed his instinct is to hit back at the questioner.

[Votedave]

David Cameron was spot on today. He behaved as a constructive Opposition Leader. I am greatly irritated by some of these comments saying he shouldn't have been angry when there is so much in this country to be angry about.
He was hardly "out of control", was he? Everything Gordon Brown does seems to be motivated by political point-scoring, and he should have no right to accuse that of anyone else.
Mr Editor, I put it to you that those who criticised his performance today would never praise him under any circumstances. These are probably the same people who have said he is too timid in earlier weeks.

[Matt Wright]

I think DC is much better when he does show passion. We were out canvassing today in a tough area and a bloke came up to us and said he was voting Tory and he referred to this issue and how angry he was with Labour. No, this was a very good hit by DC. Please can we have more of this? For Gods sake of course its playing politics, thats what we send people to the Commons for, to raise real issues and stick up for ordinary people. Thats the whole point!

[Hawkeye]

@The Bishops Wife (12:35) "I will not vote for a guy who cannot keep his cool."

Well, then you won't be voting for Brown who is reported to smash mobiles and throw tantrums. What about Clegg and his 30 women? Will you vote for someone who, by his own admission, cannot control his groin?

Cameron did OK. He was right to get angry.

[The Bishops wife]

Your right I will not be voteing for Brown, so lets hope our guy can keep his head.

[Amy]

It's about time someone makes the Social Services and Government accountable. The baby was seen 60 times!! And this from the same council that failed Victoria. I want to see people charged for criminal negligence-its only than will people take their job seriously. And Gordon Brown should be ashamed of himself. another confirmation taht its time I took a flight with the other 100,000 EMIGRANTS.

[Victor, NW Kent]

I have been posting on this topic on Boulton & Co. Almost to a man [or woman] the attitude of the Labour bloggers is that Brown was right and Cameron was wrong. Few give any regards to this mite who was tortured to death.
Cameron was right to get angry - I was much more angry, I would have been incoherent with rage at Brown's attitude.
Brown has calluses on his callousness. His tears of sympathy are only ever for himself.