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"Earlier on the programme, former Home Secretary Kenneth Clarke compared Damian Green's arrest to the stuff of "President Nixon's America"."

Ken Clarke is a superb communicator and a wily old fox! He knows well if he'd compared the situation to something which might have happened under the rule of Stalin or Pol Pot people would have mentally switched off - claiming he was exaggerating! Nixon's America however keeps the public listening - after all, America is the most powerful Nation in the Free World .....

I cannot believe that no attempt was made to drag out what this word spoken in mantra-like tones actually meant. She admitted that profiting from leaks was an acceptable part of politics, but this was different because it was systematic.
On question of did some of leaked information breach Official Secrets Act or threaten Defence of Realm, "systematic". Implication being that it had but offering no substantiation - ie bullshit.
So, we are 2 days after release and this lying bullshit merchant claims to have no further information on the operational findings of the police. Really, does whole of Govt and MPS shut down for weekend? What is this ? Slow typists weekend? Playing for time to extricate from screw-up?
So Police now inform CPS on Monday, CPS may copy Home Secretary - if they thinks she needs to know (after all just a politician) - if they decide to proceed. Meanwhile when will Director of Public Prosecutions be allowed to be involved in this trivial matter - or is it beneath his dignity and pay-grade?
Smith was let off very lightly by Marr, that woman needs to be in front of Parliamentary Commission and held to proper account.
Referring back , obliquely (very - other detailed investigations)- she claimed full Operational Independence was allowed to Police. Not the way I heard it, Cabinet Office expected Police Rollover rather than somebody digging their heels in, and when that happened leashed very vindictive campaign against Police, oh dear the pay award....

Unfortunately for Smith, the real issue of "operational independence" at stake here is that of Parliament and its Members.

The correct thing for her to say would have been that her Department welcomes the inquiries which must follow these events. Such an inquiry might establish the means by which she can regain control over the sprawling mess of the Executive which at present is not so much operationally independent as wildly anarchic.

I wonder when we will get news of arrests at the Treasury and the searching of Robert Peston's office in the light of recent leaks about banks and markets. Or will we get such news, given that Jacqui Smith's "leaks" are Alastair Darling's "news management"?

Labour Regime OUT!!!!!!!!!!!

'Ms Smith said that the leak investigation was initiated by the Cabinet Office alongside her permanent secretary and that no minister asked for it' - quoting from the top of the thread.

Apart from being a sentence of clear obfuscation!, is Ms Smith suggesting (which she certainly is!) that police investigations or perhaps any other investigation can be authorised by secretaries or permanent secretaries or maybe OTHER ad hoc staff in the Cabinet Office - NO minister OF COURSE!

"systematic series of leaks from a department dealing with some of the most sensitive and confidential information in government".

If this is the case then I expect the documents in question will be marked "Secret" or "Highly Confidential".

If they were not then they were NOT what she says, and if they WERE, then she is incompetent for leaving them lying around the place.

Expect nothing better from her or from Brown because they're obviously divested of all integrity in the offices they hold and for want of a better word they are SCUM.

Re Damian Green - clearly she knew about the investigation - did she know who they were investigating. She must have done, she must have known what they were investigating and which opposition MP was the thorn in her side. In effect she is saying she did not know when the arrest was to happen. Did she say to the perm sec pursue this? Did she know that pursuing this would lead to Green's arrest? Did she know that the level this would be conducted under involved anti-terrorist officers?

Ms Smith has nothing to gain by apologising - look at the defeat and hopelesssness in her eyes. The dogs in the street in Redditch know that her 2,000 majority is now at least a 5,000 deficit. She is thnking of her impending career change.

The Home Secretary also suggested that when similar action was taken against an official as part of this police investigation, that she was told in advance the name of the person and the likely course of events.

So why would she not similarly be briefed about the action against Damian Green.

She was also unclear as to whether she knew that a Conservative MP was under investigaton by the police, even if she did not know which one, or whether or not they were on the front bench. If she did know an MP was under investigation, she could of course have requested to be informed before any arrest was made.

Also, if opperational independence means letting the police do whatever they want, what's the point of having Ministerial responsibility?

The disgusting truth that we all fear about this story is that Ministers knew about the planned action against Damian Green and supported it - which is why they won't apologise now.

The treatment of Damien Green was very poor- 9 counter-terroism officers is way over the top and the Home Secretary deserves severe criticism for allowing excessive police powers. However Mr Green could well be facing serious charges (rumours and i stress probable lies)state that he paid for leaks. If this is the case then a police investigaion is valid. Unfortuantly we don't know the facts so our criticism at the moment should be on the excessive use of police manpower and resources

From the other thread

I believe Mr Green is innocent until proven gulity and although I have never met the man I presume he is honourable and no such thing has occured. I presume this from the force of DC's attacks. However the police must have some evidence of wrongdoing, we will have to wait until all the facts are avaliable before judging the police response overall and their entitlement to arrest. However the actual arrest does appear to be OTT and a sad indictment of New Labour if 9 anti-terroism police are called for a man who is hardly likley to resist arrest

1. Jacqui Smith knew 5,000 illegal workers had been granted licenses.

2. An illegal immigrant was employed as a cleaner in the Commons.

3. A list of potential Labour rebels on 42-day detention of terror suspects.

4. A letter from Jacqui Smith to Gordon Brown warning recession could lead to more crime.

NONE of these fall into State Secrets or National Security and to date NONE of the documents have been said to have been marked in that way.

Where has a crime been committed ?

She's lying, there is obviously a cover up in force, how could Boris, Cameron, The Speaker and Sergeant in arms all be informed of the imminent arrest of Green while the government was told nothing? They are in spin and damage limitation overdrive while trying misdirection and claiming innocence.

The Queens speech is coming up, there is wide cross party condemnation of this violation of democracy, there should be a cross party, high profile, public demonstration. An inquiry followed by a reassessment of the how the police are operating and their priorities. I don't think you even get than many Police turning up when there's been a violent assault on someone. So under Labours Britain you get one or two officers if you've been mugged and beaten because of an over burdened force, but nine special branch with simultaneous raids across the south east if you you've embarrassed the government.

If Green paid for leaks then the Tory leadership has screwed itself.

9 Officers is over the top, but Cameron must know that no money is involved.

Good luck to Ms Smith in deadbatting the poodle Marr.

15 minutes opposite Robin Day or Brian Walden would have yielded the truth of the matter.

But the truth will out despite the Mandelson-Campbell concert party coaching of Brown/Smith on the 'correct responses' to the press and other enquiries.

Brown will be livid. Not because he does not approve the arrest but that he has misread the reaction.

This is the political equivalent of the 10p financial fiasco.

Thats two people mentioning that money maybe involved - WHY?

I suggest that the Telegraph resurrects a device used to great effect before, namely to add a phrase such as "in which Jacqui Smith is still Home Secretary" after the initial reference to "the Government" in its editorials. And no Labourgraph jibes please - the editorial on this issue in yesterday's edition was first class.

What do you expect? Griswold (11:11) nails the essence of this ungracious performance by the Home Secretary: Marr is a BBC lickspittle.

The line "no prior knowledge of the arrest" seems very well rehursed. Given labours additction to being misleading but with a defence (generally spurious) against 'lying'. It seems entirely reasonable to beleive that the situation was deliberately managed to enable this line to be used. Work out - what is the most that could have been known, and this line still used? And that is probably what the cabinet knew - everything except the exact time maybe?

I think an important consideration here is what would happend if it had been a cabinet minister? would the government be quite so relaxed about it? if not they need to explain the inconsistency.

Also - I think the tories have to consider are labour are out to destroy the party (with the full resources of the state at their disposal, and new anti-terrorist and survelance laws to misuse).

If this is the best they can do (the osbourne episode and then this) - then is shows how clean the tories are!

When the tories get in at the next general election, I sincerely hope they will go for full openness and frankness with the public - and not hide whatever it is that this government are so desparate to hide for ever - what are the rules on outgoing governments shredding information on the way out?

Patsy Sergeant 11:15

Labour's angle is obviously to imply he paid for it. The rapid rebuttal operation is in full operation.

Watch out people.

New labour
New Extremists


Patsy - if money were involved then it would be bribary, not a 'public interest' defence.

Of course if instead of cash it was a couple of weeks all expenses paid hospitality on a yacht, and a few weeks all expenses paid hospitatily in an exotic home etc would be absolutley fine - just ask mandleson.

In one way it's a pity that she won't survive to be in opposition to be arrested at some time in the future, if only to witness the way she squealed like a pig at the injustice of it all.

Having watched Ms Smith's interview, it reminded me how vital it is that Labour are put in their rightful place at the next election - in Opposition.
She was shameful and acted as the epitomy of a New Labour minister.

No to ID cards!

None of this rings true.

If Boris, a Tory Mayor, was told prior to the arrest then it's almost certain that a Labour politician in central government was told. And that politician would undoubtedly have notified dearest Jacqui who will have without fail have told Gordon.

I looked forward with glee to election night, and watching Karen Lumley MP (Con) make her victory speech.

Check this out folks.

Nick Clegg blows a gasket at his team for being "useless"

Mirror exclusive.


This is hurting Labour badly.

A swift apology would have defused the situation immediately, but they insist on trying to distance themselves from what has become a political matter and Cameron is rightly pulling them back into the mix.

Exactly Mr. Anon @ 11.32 that is exactly what I was suggesting!! Especially as the person making the suggestion - on this website at least - having made two comments, very politely, one bringing up the possiblility of money being involved and the other, discussing the police action, suggesting maybe they were a little OTT, but no smoke without fire etc: - on another thread; then goes to the trouble of combining both comments to put them both on this thread... So my response was Why?

Weak interview by Marr to his friend a nervous Smith. Ken Clarke as usual gave a good account of himself but Carol Vorderman said it all with her last remark on the subject which was “disgusting”.
We need our Politicians to use some stronger terminology passing comment I have not heard anybody say to Zanou Labour that they should hang their heads in shame they really are people that have no principles and would not recognise the truth if it hit them on the nose. Dictatorship or Freedom that is the choice people have at the next election.

I suspect that most people will be indifferent to what’s happened to Damien Green. But Labour’s error is to underestimate the anger of the minority who do care. Through Damien Green’s arrest our spines have been stiffened and our determination doubled. This government must go. I hope that Lib Dem supporters, while of course remaining Lib Dem at heart, will see that there’s only one X that is going to get rid of this vile bunch that are running our country and its liberties into the ground.

Ms Jacqui Smith and her boss are scoffing at us.

They both claim to 'believe in the principle of police being independent'.
Ms Smith also claims that it would have been "Stalinist" if she had intervened in their current investigations.

Of course, the police must be independent, but the sad reality is that, at the moment, they are clearly NOT.
Our police force, if not totally corrupt, is, at least, heavily politicised.
Allowing the police to carry on as they are, does not mean upholding their independence, it means preserving their current subservience.

If the government really wanted an independent police in this country, they would first make sure that the force regains its neutrality, and only then stop intervening.
If Ms Smith really wanted an independent police, she would make sure that the new Met Commissioner she appointed was indeed politically unattached.

Ohterwise, her and her boss's words are just empty rhetoric.
And we've had enough of that.


Why? Because if there is any hint of actual serious wrongdoing rather than just publicising that the Gov't really are a bunch of useless idiots then the Tory guns on this will have been well and truly spiked. I suspect though that no such evidence has been unearthed Cameron will have made certain that there were no skeletons in Green's closet before sending the troops over the top.

This may be why stories are emerging of attempts to entrap Green after the arrest of the civil servant.

"I suspect that most people will be indifferent to what’s happened to Damien Green."

It’s hard to gauge the feelings of the vast majority, but I suspect most thinking people will have put two and two together and worked out that Mandy is behind this. Of course the Police must be able to act when a law may have been broken. However Labour have messed up the legislation of this country so much with mostly bad law, that its now impossible to know what actions will trigger a police investigation.

"Having watched Ms Smith's interview, it reminded me how vital it is that Labour are put in their rightful place at the next election - in Opposition.
She was shameful and acted as the epitome of a New Labour minister.

No to ID cards!"

I think opposition is now far to good for nu-labour and I hope that they are pushed into the position now held by the far more worthy Liberals. My dear old mum greets Smith with a spitting venomous barrage of abuse when ever she appears on her Television. I have never seen my mother so enraged by a political player. We have seen a new and very nasty side of Comrade Brown’s vision of Britain this week, lets ensure their days are numbered.

Pasty - from what I have read, it seems the police do not suspect Green of offering payment for this information. That first appeared in the Guardian on Friday, and doesn't appear to have changed since. The job thing is a different matter; the Telegraph reported that, alongside offering leaks, the mole asked for a job at CCHQ. He was turned down for a job, but kept supplying the leaks anyway.

Jacqueline Jill Smith is barely credible as a teacher let alone Minister of the Interior. I cannot believe she has her department under control and probably makes the tea for the Permanent Secretary.

She is simply a drone in the remnants shop run by G Brown with no spark of intiative or drive. Frankly it would not surprise me if the Met had searched her office and home without her even noticing

Thank you David(One of Many) @ 12.23 - That information about the Guardian having been the first 'outlet' to float this information, was exactly what I was after, because what I am suggesting is that this particular aspect of the whole business has ONLY been floated from Labour sources!

"Spot the Story"

A bit of Sunday fun http://www.guardian.co.uk/ - find a link to the Damian Green story !

Frau Honnecker (Jacqui Smith) has spoken!

Accept her judgement.

Forward with the Glorious Fatherland.

Wasn't Clarke good?

If you read newspapers online, as I do, you will see that there are hundreds and hundreds upon hundreds of messages railing against the government and this latest breach of Parliamentary Sovereignty. Some grasp the gravity of the situation and some misunderstand the Constitutional implications but simply 'hate' the government.

The Conservatives should take heart and continue to fight against this assault on our democracy.

I have three comments to make:

Grieve's questions are forensic in detail and should be used at each and every opportunity.

When Parliament has been assaulted in such a way, why would HM's Loyal Opposition continue to sit and therefore be complicit?

We, the people, are deserving of more than a charade and I hope for better from a Conservative government.

We want the truth; not lies and evasions; we want a government that treats us like 'grown-ups'. We do, after all, have minds of our own.

One of the reasons I now live overseas despite being a proud British citizen is because of Blair, Brown, Smith and the double standards they and their cronies bring to elected office.

Smith's performance on the Marr show was nothing short of shocking, which ably displays she is the worst home secretary in living memory.

Paul Stephenson's goal to become the new Commissioner of the Met following this debacle is now seriously in doubt, and I am also given to wonder about the political leanings of Bob Quick, as he is very close I believe to Smith and Normington at the Home Office.

The sooner an election comes around, with David running the show the better. Then perhaps I might consider returning from Canada to the island I still consider my home.

I should have added - Redditch surely can't return this monstrous Blaire babe...with a majority of a little over 2,500, she must be sent packing with a flea in her ear when the electorate finally realise they sent someone so incapable to represent them.

Redditch will have to be renamed "Bluedditch" after the general elction!


Jacqui Smith is one of those ineffectual witless tarts who give both politicians and women a bad name. It should be a criminal offence that she manages to irritate a large proportion of the British public every time she opens her mouth. ZANU-Labour really should offer this bimbo as a sacrificial lamb along with Goebbels Mick, the Thick Lazy Fat Scottish Get who presides as Speaker of the House of a Great Deal of Very Common people - mostly wimmin!

Wasn't Clarke good?

He was good and he is almost always good. I was suprised by his self banishment and his lack of willing to take on a key role in oppisition. Prehaps Ken is starting to feel old. I have met him less than once in person but always find the man utterly charming and convincing. His Grammer School clout is sadly out of fashion with the utterly professional antics of the Eton Guys.
Of course Cameroon should build a bridge to the self elected majority. Ken belives in the Nation only he sees a vital role for Britian in Europe. I suspect that our in-out Stance is costing us Billions, and undermines the stablity of Britian plc.So yeasr Ken was good but in trurth I want to see the type of Conservative he is prosper.

Parris in the Saturday Times made the very good point that no labour Minister with an ounce of political nouce would have allowed Green to be arrested. They would have seen the PR disaster that it has become a mile off and told plod where to go.

This suggests they did not know and as such are not lying. This throws up two interesting possibilities.

First. Do the police believe that Labour are finished and are actively aiding that end? If so, why tell any member of the Government? Go ahead with the raid in the full knowledge everybody will expect them to have known, but that they didn't act to stop it, harms them.

Problem with this is that it is so convoluted and complicated that while the PoD might have thought it up, Plod couldn't get past the first bluff, let alone the several other counter-bluffs in the scenario.

Far more scarily, the alternate possibility is that there is a coup afoot. It is entirely plausible that a group of people have decided that Labour have to go, now, for the good of the country and are not prepared to wait for a General Election and democracy to run its course.

They might be working to destabilise the Government by using Plod, possibly the forces next, to do things which the Government cannot stop, but which do it irreperable harm.

This may all sound like something out of "Spooks" - and they did run just such a script in Series 3 - but can we really rule it out?

"Parris in the Saturday Times made the very good point that no labour Minister with an ounce of political nouce would have allowed Green to be arrested."

While that is probably true, it doesn't make the arrest any more acceptable.

I could not understand Smith's lamentable performance in her interview. She must have been aware that Geoff Hoon had made a complete fool of himself on Any Questions on Friday using the same defence. The audience ended up laughing at him.
Smith was equally implausible and a harder interviewer would have crucified her, but even Marr sounded completely unconvinced of her truthfulness. What's left of her reputation is about to be destroyed completely I think.

"I could not understand Smith's lamentable performance in her interview." - There is only one explanation for Smith's performance, and the line of defence that the government as a whole as adopted, and this is that they encouraged the police to make the arrest and are now back pedalling as fast as they can.
If they were genuinely innocent in this the obvious line for ministers to take would be to announce an inquiry into police activities - blame it all on some "rogue element" or "bad apple". The fact that they are taking the line of "Green was asking for it" has only one explanation - they pushed the police to make the arrest, assuming that having a front bencher arrested for malfeasance would damage the Tories in the polls. Instead, they've triggered a genuine constitutional crisis and are desperately trying to avoid the consequences of their actions.
Q - What was Gordon Brown's first reaction to this crisis?
A - To claim "I wasn't there". No surer sign of guilt is there than when Macavity tries to slip away from the scene of the crime.

Labour have made a staggeringly large mistake over this issue - more so even than the PBR. They think if they can manage the news cycle for a couple of days it will go away, but this is one of those issues that smoulders for a while before it really blows up. There is a very real possibility that the arrest of Damien Green could bring down the government, and so far Labour have done nothing to prevent that chain of events playing out.

That wasn't a Home Secretary you saw. It was an overblown director of Human Resources - you know, the sort, that tells you, the specialist, how to do your job.

Con gain Redditch.

Something does not ring true here , I,d wait and see before jumping in to condem the police .

They know something that the rest of us don,t. If it proves that all they arrested Mr Green for was receiving leaks then thats fine they will get what they deserve but I think there is something that is yet to come out .

They know that this will cause massive headlines so they must have something that we don't know about or why the massive operation ?

Lets Wait and see.

On the 6.30 news the woman is still stubbornly refusing to say more than it is a "serious ishooo"!

Ten out of ten for sheer brass neck.

And why did Comrade Martin not stop the police from entering Westminster?

Last time it happened, the King was executed!

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