65% of Tory members say "never" to Britain joining the Euro

Over the next few days we'll be publishing the results of ConservativeHome's October survey of Tory members.  1,614 gave us their views.

Our first result finds that two-thirds of Tory members are opposed to Britain ever joining the Euro but 30% want to keep options open:

Charles Tannock MEP made this comment last week on a CentreRight thread started by Greg Hands:

"I congratulate Greg Hands as a robust eurorealist for raising this interesting debate as we dont know for sure how the Eurozone will weather the global financial crisis. Some say it saved the Irish economy by preventing a run on their currency others say it is doomed to failure as countries like Spain and Italy have to peel off. As someone who has an open mind about its long term prospects of viability I can only say if the weaker members do peel off the core group will be much stronger making the single curency more robust not less. My understanding is the Conservative Party has formally adopted the tougher IDS position of saying "never" to the single currency as opposed to the earlier policy of William Hague of "not for the duration of each parliament' ie open to peiodic review which I recollect was endorsed by the membership in a referendum, so I cannot see a Conservative government or opposition party under David Cameron ever endorsing such a radical move and certainly not without a referendum which surely the British public would reject. However I agree with Greg that ultimately as we saw in the Eurozone countries citizens were less attached emotionally to their national currencies than many predicted provided the change did not result in inflation which at least at first it certainly did in Germany and Italy (the Teuro phenomenon) as prices were rounded up which was specifically prohibited in Cyprus and Slovenia. So I can see the basis of Greg's conjectures but doubt the PM would wish to lose his place at certain IMF and other international high level economic meetings if the UK abandoned the pound and surely such a move would be deeply unpopular in Britain and seal his fate electorally just as he is seeing a bounce in his favour and putting the outcome back into hung parliament territory."

Comments

[GB£.com]

Thanks for adding this question Tim, and it pretty much confirms what I thought. What I think would have been very insightful is if those who voted identified themselves as 'traditional' or 'Cameroon' Tories as I believe that the roons will be much more open to the idea of adopting the Euro with the trads likely to be heavily weighted in the 'never' camp.

Is is possible to extract this grouping based on the other questions (for example on those who gave a higher performance rating to more traditional shadow cabinet members etc)?

In short, I do not believe that the GB£ is safe in the hands of the new generation of Tories which is why it is important to vote UKIP in the Euros, and Tory at the GE.

[John Broughton]

Once again I must challenge Charles Tannock's statement that:

"as we saw in the Eurozone countries citizens were less attached emotionally to their national currencies than many predicted provided the change did not result in inflation"

Generally these people were given no choice in the matter and had to accept a fait accompli imposed by their particular governments and simply had to get on with their lives.

It may well be the same here if David Cameron & Co do give an unequivocal committment to a referendum on Lisbon/Constitution whether or not ratified.

[Peter_M]

How lucky you are! British people have "common-sense instincts" when it comes to sovereignty and the EU.
We, in Slovakia, are much less brighter. All our political parties in parliament are in love with Brussels and as a result we are adopting the Euro. On Jan 1 2009 the Slovak Crown will be dead! R.I.P.

[Mark]

Perhaps I am in an exceptional position, but I doubt it, so why is it that absolutely nobody I know, or work with has ever expressed any desire whatsoever to join the Euro. Long live Sterling !

[Northern Tory]

We need some clear new policies, we need some clear Blue water...Why not float this as a manifesto pledge...

It would show decisive action and that we are not simply jumping on bandwagons...

It would also force Brown's hand to make his position clear...

Simple slogan - under a Conservative government we will keep our identity and we will keep our currency...Would go down an absolute storm up here...

Come on Dave, shows us your metal..

[Eveleigh Moore-Dutton]

Keeping the pound sterling is also about keeping control of, and responsibility for, our own national economy. I firmly believe in the adage "that which belongs to everybody belongs to nobody". If responsibility for our currency is pooled, as would happen with the Euro, then accountability for its management is diluted and becomes unclear.
Brown has spoken of an end to the era of irresponsibility but I want to hear more about a new era of responsibility where nations are more responsible for their national economies, councils are accountable for the services they control and families look after themselves to the full extent that they are able.

[Edward Huxley]

65% of Tory members say "never", but what matters is the MPs. The party still has many Euro federalists at Westminster.

I`m pretty sure the membership feels the same about leaving the EU and supports Better Off Out. What about putting the question?

Pity Charles Tannock doesn`t split his postings up. Paragraphs would make them easier to follow.

[Stewart Geddes]

This adopted candidate will never vote to join the Euro- ever.

[Moderniser]

Charles' position of keeping an open mind about the Euro's long term prospects of viability, is correct and party policy. Thanks for writing Charles!

Personally, like many in my association, I am against joining the Euro at the moment and agree with William Hague that we should be in Europe, not run by Europe. This policy is far better than Labour's and gives us a firm platform for the General Election.

On the doorstep we must remind voters that the Conservative Party is the only non-racist party with a clear policy on Europe that puts Britain first, while maintaining good relations with our biggest trading partners.

[Letters From A Tory]

According to a (very well hidden) story on the BBC website yesterday, the Eurozone shrunk by 0.2% in the last three months and is about to tip into recession. That doesn't scream credibility to me, despite our very own impending doom thanks to Gordon.

[Freborn John]

The Euro is a dead issue. The topic should be 'what changes should the UK negotiate with the EU countries upon coming to power?'

[resident leftie]

This is no surprise.

Now as who things we can change Europe from within and if we can't, who wants to leave. You've studiously avoided that question.

I bet at least 35% want to leave the EU.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Peter_M | November 04, 2008 at 08:00

How lucky you are! British people have "common-sense instincts" when it comes to sovereignty and the EU.
We, in Slovakia, are much less brighter. All our political parties in parliament are in love with Brussels and as a result we are adopting the Euro. On Jan 1 2009 the Slovak Crown will be dead! R.I.P.

I don't killing your monarch is a Euro entry requirement. Was Lord Mandelson involved in the negotiations?

[Tony Makara]

A point that people often miss is that the Euro is a political currency. Its entire raison d'etre is tied up in the European project. Should that project unravel, for whatever reason, the currency would quickly become worthless. The Euro should never have become a currency in its own right, but should have existed solely as a medium of international exchange to run alongside existing currencies.

[Peter_M]

@resident leftie:

:-)))

no, mandelson was not there. we have our own "experts" for dealing with the issue.

[Rupert Matthews]

"The Euro is a dead issue."

Oh, if only.

The sole reason that Britain's entry into the Euro has gone away as a political issue is because there is absolutely no chance of it getting past a referendum, and any political party which put this forward as a policy would soon be in deep trouble. But the Europhiles of all nationalities - especially those in Brussels - have not given up. They are happy to think in decades while most politicians think in electoral cycles. And their end game remains a federal EU state with Britain as a fully integrated member.

That is why the 'never' aspect of the question was key, as was the fact that it has been raised. We need to keep reminding the Brussels machine that people in this country still care about Sterling. Otherwise we shall see them begin to plan their plans and plot their plots to start the process of drawing Britain into the Euro, a currency which that Tony Makara quite rightly points out is at heart a political project, not an economic one.

[Jake]

"Some say it saved the Irish economy by preventing a run on their currency "

er - this person says Ireland being in the euro and therefore being unable to manipulate interest rates to head off the property/assets bubble was a major part of why they had such a bubble and the subsequent collapse

[Cicero]

The Euro is not a dead issue. It was only shelved as a talking point because of Mr. Hague's courage in campaigning against it. Rest assured that when the financial crisis has blown over (a couple of years hence) the Europhiles will be back. Resist at all costs: the Euro is not about economics, it is about deeper integration.

[Lindsay Jenkins]

Cicero I agree the euro is far from a dead issue. It was a measure of Jimmy Goldsmith's success that it has remained on the backburner so long.

One currency equals one country. There are no half measures.

No wonder Peter_M feels so strongly about the loss of Slovakia's Crown. That was a short burst of freedom - from the USSR to the EU with scarcely a pause for breath.

Better Off Out - indeed that is the only way.

Cameron's woolly language on the EU should have every Briton worried.

[Libertarian]

So 30% of Tory members are willing to consider the option of giving up the £, i.e. giving control of our economy to the European Central Bank in Frankfurt. What a bunch of quisling weasels!

[David_at_Home]

OK, well done, my Tory friends.

Now what about the Lisbon treaty?

[Edward Huxley]

Of course the euro is not a dead issue and it never will be. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Constitution/Treaty states "the EU currency shall be the euro". So sooner or later all members will have to adopt it. There will not be a choice.

[David Briscombe]

30pc of Conservative members believe keeping our options open over the Euro is the sensible approach. How true, as this shows the current make-up of the membership is still overwhelmingly eurosceptic- reflected in the lurch to the right post-1997 with the disastrous consequences for our party. If this 30pc can still ensure the party remains the "broad church" it has always been, then the Euro-elections should go well for us. Thankfully, with us doing well in the polls now, the sceptics have gone quiet. Long may that continue!

[michael mcgough]

"Cameron's woolly language on the EU should have every Briton worried."Lindsay

As well we should.Hague's lack of any precision in his outpourings regarding the Lisbon Treaty are equally disturbing.

We often forget that party policy is for 'ever closer' union.It is significant that whilst IDS totally rejected the Euro Hague left the door wide open just as he has over Lisbon.

[Out]

For the very last time: joining the euro is primarily a POLITICAL decision, not an economic one.

[IRJMilne]

How on earth are so many prepared to consider such a move? 30% would consider adopting the euro? I must say that I am quite disappointed.

[christina Speight]

Why does Mr Tannock always - and at unnecessary length - get on my nerves? Maybe it's his ambivalent stance on everything.

Jake at 11:31 is right. ireland GOT into trouble precisely because of the euro. It had a completely unsustainable boom which needed interest rate changes and revaluation of the currency to correct. It couldn't do that, so it crashed.

One size does NOT fit all and you'll almost certainly see it elsewhere in the EU soon.

[GB£.com]

It should be highlighted that there is *no* mention of the Euro in any form on the official Conservatives.com site on the Foreign Affairs and Europe policy page.

http://tinyurl.com/47wyh8

In fact, the sum total of the Tory policy page for all EU reform matters is just 148 words, less than the policy page on 'women'! Outrageous.

Can we simply have an on-the-record, wriggle-free answer from Cameron on his position? Is it 'never' or 'keeping his options open'?

Remember, 'never' needs no qualification.

[JS]

As a lifetime strong supporter of the Conservative Party I find it very sad that we now have so many Little Englanders amongst us. The 65% can have no vision for the future, no adventure in their souls and would rather weakly hide behind the apron strings of a control freak America - for whom the country has already sacrificed far too much - than help build a strong, united and independent Europe to challenge the United State's bullying policies to dictate to the rest of the world.

[Reality-based Community]

I cannot beleive there are still Tories saying the Euro will fall apart. It works, get over it.

Whether Britain should join is another matter, but please can we end all this "it will never work" guff.

[Reality-based community]

One currency equals one country. There are no half measures.

And while you are at it can we end this delusional tripe? Go over to Dublin and tell them they live in the same country as France.

It's moronic.

[David]

As has been said, let the Lisbon Treaty get through and the Euro will follow without being asked. The party must promise a referendum on the Treaty (whether before or after it has been ratified).

[Freeborn John]

One currency does not mean one country, but it does mean one state and one government in the long-term in Brussels. You cannot have 15 or 27 Chancellors of the Exchequer in the long-term.

It is part of the human condition to aspire to self-government. That is why we see more and more nation-states in the world, up from 60 in 1945 to 200 today and with them the spread of democracy around the word. Make no mistake that the EU means the gradual replacement of the ability of Britons to elect a government of our choosing. The EU legislative machine will not stop producing new EU laws. Since every new EU law requires that we repeal conflicting national legislation a time will come (perhaps decades hence) when Westminster is unable to legislate at all. One can debate when this moment will be reached, but not that it will be reached. At that point our national elections will simply decide which party sends representatives to Brussels to be outvoted and then explain to us why we must live under laws and policies we never wanted but cannot change. This is the issue that the Conservative party should be debating.

[Freeborn John]

JS: Have the seen the film “It’s a wonderful life” where the little girl believes that “Every time a bell rings an angel gets his wings”. Well every time you hear an EU supporter say “little Englander” the federalist dream dies a little more. Insults are no answer to arguments.

[Patsy Sergeant]

JS @ 12.48 above. I rather get the impression that you are not 'for real'!

However, IF you are, I would challenge you to deny that the EU is just as capable of 'bullying tactics', and underhand and useless diktats as the US has ever been. And our businesses, our farmers, our importers, and goodness knows how many other areas of life and bureaucracy, would vouch for the endless and unnecessary red-tape that has become mandatory since our membership of the EU!!

Eveleigh Moore-Dutton @ 8.49 - I am in total agreement with your very straightforward comments.

Northern Tory @ 8.33 -'...It would also force Brown's hand to make his position clear...' Like getting water out of a stone?? And muddy water at that!

Christina @ 12.37 - I completely agree with everything that you have said, and I feel as strongly about it you obviously do, especially the last sentence starting 'One size does NOT fit all...'

Tony @ 10.20 - I also agree with your comments, but I am not sure how this would work:- 'The Euro should never have become a currency in its own right, but should have existed solely as a medium of international exchange run alongside existing currencies.' Why would that be necessary anyway??

Anyway NO to the EURO in the UK!

[Steve Tierney]

I wish somebody WOULD do a poll here of people's opinions on leaving the EU. I think it might be quite a surprise just how many people want completely out. Im definitely one of them, anyway.

[Robert Eve]

No to the Euro and No to the EU - simple really.

[David]

Any arguments that the EU gives us prosperity or security have been finally blown in the current economic crisis. I can only see disadvantages (and some profound). Can anyone explain the benefits?

[Lindsay Jenkins]

Editor - why not take up Steve Tierney's suggestion for a poll on leaving the EU?

Those who like to throw out 'little Englander' as a term of abuse might like to know its source.

The Kaiser's party in late 1880s Germany dreamt it up. It was part of the propaganda campaign against us which eventually turned into the First World War.

Considering how much of the world was coloured pink at the time it was obviously nonsense, just as it is today when we are the world's leading trading nation. The UK does more trade per head of population than any other country by far.

[Old Hack]

I voted to keep our options open, but that doesn't mean I'm in favour of scrapping the pound. Quite the reverse, at the moment.

This financial crisis still has serious legs. It may yet be so debilitating to the economy and the currency of the country that adopting the Euro may be seen as essential.

The longer Brown and Co remain at the wheel, the deeper and more devastating this recession is going to get. Anyone who rules out options in dealing with once in a lifetime economic depression needs to think again.

It is hard to understate the damage that Brown and Co. have perpetrated. We face some tough decisions to put things right. So why should we rule out an option that may be economically beneficial?

[JS]

Patsy Sergeant @ 13.56

Oh yes - I'm for real I assure you! The vast amount of the bureaucracy and red tape you refer to is a direct result of Britain having a Labour government for the last 11 years not our membership of the EU. It is a pity that so many Conservatives just don't seem able to accept that the country's best prospects for the future - indeed its only hope - is to become a completely co-operating member of a united Europe. They are faint-hearts indeed. It is somewhat hypocritical that many people are against any independence for Scotland but want the UK to break up the European Union.

[Tony Makara]

Patsy Sergeant, for such a system to work each national currency would have to be fixed against the Euro at a given rate of exchange. The fixed rate of exchange for each nation could then be up or downgraded periodocally by decision of the ECB to meet economic need. Over time, if skillfully managed it would be possible to bring the purchasing power of each currency, relative to the Euro, in sync. This however should not lead to the destruction of national currencies but should only be a mode of international transaction to run alongside national currencies.

I have argued that there should be a world currency unit based on this system with a world central bank to oversee matters. Such a system would bring unprecedented global financial stability and could over time equalize the purchasing power of the entire world. Of course only the international currency would be used as the foreign currency reserve. The idea of a world central bank is a concept long overdue.

I suggest the idea of a system for the Euro as an example of what should have been done instead of having a one-size-fits-all replacement for national currencies.

[B.Garvie]

Many do not want closer integration with the EU and adoption of the Euro would do just that.
This Government has given away far too much of our sovereignty, the net result is being dictated to by unelected bureaucrats from Brussels. 70% of our laws now eminate from there and a European Legal system is being put in place.No wonder this Government has dictated that Parliament will only need to sit for 126 days next year.
They would rather have us 'sleep walk' into more regulatory tie-ups with Europe. They are an incidious Government and cannot be trusted. the Euro is just a smoke screen to disguise the other vast changes that are going on simultaneously in the back ground.

More worrying than the Euro is the legal creep of a legal system based on a Napoleonic system of justice, entitled Corpus Juris. It is an embryonic form of a new European criminal code.It will destroy the British system of justice and put an end to Habeas Corpus. The Home Secretary was pushing for 42 days detention without charge; this is in concordat with ending habeas corpus and makes it unnecessary for any European Police Force, to bring an accused before a court within 48 hours of arrest.

Corpus Juris will end the separation of the judiciary from the state, which becomes both judge and jury, responsible for the prosecution and sentence. A decision to prosecute would be initiated even before the opening of an investigation.

So be wary on your European travels. It only takes a local Magistrate to issue a European wide arrest warrant and incarceration would soon follow.

The separation of the judiciary from the state, it will become apparent when the Law Lords are soon to be removed from the Upper House.

I am not suprised 65% do NOT wish to join the Euro. However, if this Government truely and honestly ventilated the other implications of Lisbon and European legal consequences, perhaps 95% would wish to leave this fradulent Union completely.

[Edward Huxley]

I find I am in agreement with JB - well almost. We should either be completely in the EU, acccept all the conditions and stop grumbling, or leave.

I know which I would choose.

[Shaun]

Yes, lets have a survey on members attitudes towards EU membership and see just how big the majority is for coming out!

David Cameron and the leadership of the party need a good kick up the backside to get them back into action. Quite frankly at the moment we DESERVE to lose the next election!!! Lets have some backbone from out leaders.

For this reason, and because of my belief that Cameron is going to backpeddle on our committment to leave the EPP, I will be voting UKIP in the EU elections next year. I know of many, many other Conservative party members who will be doing the same. With any luck it will give the leadership a dose of reality.

[David]

Yes, backpeddle it is if pressed. When not pressed don't even whisper about 'Europe', never mind bang on. That's the party's true position under Cameron.

[Onemarcus]

The reason we don't go on about Europe is because the population are not interested in 1992 we thought on one issue we said you had 24 hours to save the pound we were trounced in that election. UKIP bloggers remember that yes there is support for not following everything Europe does but not as much as you think for total withdrawal. Whilst I'd like us to go further in oppossing Europe for example on opposing immigration from within the EU I do not go down your path of total withdrawal and neither does the country.

[John Broughton]

Oh dear me Onemarcus the population is very very interested in things that have eu roots.

Problem is nobody informs them of where so much legislation that offends them originates. For once I won't bother to list even a small sample.

If the UK population were fully aware of the derivation of so many of the matters that both beset and offend them there would be unstoppable pressure to resolve our relationship with the eu.

[Edison Smith]

All I've got to say is - who were those 4%??

Not Tory members I assume.

[rugfish]

Add my name to the never in a lifetime I want British independence list please.

[thomas]

What on earth are the rest of you thinking? Maybe the financial crisis made some unlikely people start to take Marx seriously. Incidentally, Pottering has a piece on CiF. So if anyone wants to go and tell him what the UK thinks of the EU, please do.

onemarcus. You are very, very wrong. Yougov's June poll showed only 29% of people want to remain in the EU. Less than a third. Grow some backbone Tories! Otherwise what are you for?

[Richard Carey]

As a somewhat flippant aside - does anybody think that the 2001 "Keep the Pound" slogan had an unexpected side effect in Ealing North?

Might have been an own goal there, thinking about it...

[Votedave]

Mr Editor, with respect I just wondered if you were planning to create an open thread on the US Presidential election, both during and after the event?

[Northern Tory]

I'd vote NO to the Euro and get us out of the whole bloated mess that is the EU...

I would love to see a poll for members - not sure the Cameroons would be keen on it though...far too dangerous to have a full and frank debate...

[Richard Graham]

The word Europe evokes such an intensity of emotion that it crowds out discussion of some interesting recent trends.

For example, just as Brown has abandoned all his 'golden rules' of economic management, and rules are being bent for insurers' capital requirements, so too is Europe abandoning hers, including budget deficits and state intervention. All of a sudden everything is up for grabs, probably including the mandates of both the B of E and the ECB - should they include overt stimulation of growth to help avoid deflation?

Then those in favour of nationalising at will - a penchant for which Sarkozy and Brown, from different starting points (nationalism and socialism), are soul mates - are seizing the moment to push on. Those not (the Netherlands, for example) are keeping quiet but feeling uncomfortable. They will fight back: I suspect their energies behind the scenes are now focused on preventing Sarkozy from extending his tenure as President. Once that threat has receded they can breathe again. Seeing off the threat of Sarkozy as the BIG MAN of Europe will inspire some improbable new, if temporary, friendships.

Our position outside the eurozone of course allows for unilateral decisions on monetary policy, whereas Eurozone members have to take economic strain predominantly through fiscal policy: which in turn should reduce the appetite for tax harmonisation. And the impact of Eurozone government balance sheets weakening at different speeds is that financial markets have considerably widened the spreads between Eurozone country bond default swaps (or the cost of insurance) - suggesting that it's not inevitable that all Eurozone countries stay in the Euro. Meanwhile the Danes have suffered a sharp devaluation of their currency as part of the flight from perceived risk, which may make a move to the euro inevitable: and of course the Icelandic peg lasted but a day. The mood music isn't all one way.

At the same time the political effect of the economic crisis is that some members are drawn to more pan European structures: and others to less. For example a European FSA is probably more likely now: but for the Eurozone only? The process that Michael Howard believed would happen - a Europe of different speeds - draws closer.

So the question will not, I believe, be so much in or out of Europe as in or out of which options. The Working Time Directive opt out is again on the table, just as it was in 2004, and I imagine Peter Mandelson will be tasked with retaining this: with plenty of media stories about how hard a task this will be, all leading eventually to his heroic success (clad in a Union Jack atop the white cliffs of Dover - Mandy saves Britain, to the Dad's Army theme tune).

Meanwhile I believe that all of us Conservatives should focus on the Threee Horsemen of the Age of Irresponsibility - losses of jobs, businesses and houses. they are the vandal on the doorstep right now, more than the Eurocrat bogeyman.

Our policy to different aspects of Europe should I believe focus more on its impact on these three issues. But in overall terms we should be in no doubt. The UK generation of baby boomers (ie the Shadow Cabinet) is a euro sceptic one: the instinct of our fathers that a united Europe will prevent a 3rd World War seems, like Anthony Eden's pursuit of Nasser, to be chasing the wrong danger at the wrong time. I have no doubt that the policies on which we'll campaign in a few months will be robustly aagainst British participation in an Ever Closer Union, and significantly different from both Labour and Lib Dem.

But for now I know my constituents are focused on avoiding those 3 Horsemen..

[Leave the EU]

http://bloggers4ukip.blogspot.com/2008/11/conservative-homes-tory-diary-have.html

If this had been a survey of UKIP members it would have been 100% no, keeping any options open would be a complete non-starter - how can a sovereign nation ever consider sacrificing its fiscal freedom and right to control its own currency and economy? Once again this proves that the Conservative Party, although having some good people who would never consider joining the euro and would like Britain to leave the EU, can never be trusted on these issues. Maybe it is time for those 65% of Conservative Party members who want to keep our pound should make the move to UKIP which more accurately represents their views.

[onemarcus]

Move to UKIP a one issue party % of vote at last election was what exactly? will be at next election? about the same. The recent offer from the BNP summed it up for me, if anyone is spineless it is UKIP who rather than stay and fight for Britians rights within the Conservative party where a real difference could be made decided instead to leave and form this one issue party with no chance of saving diddle sqwatt.

You have changed nothing except stopping some Tory candidates in local elections from defeating those real pro-europe Lib Dems or even worse Labour candidates who are like myself against joining the Euro and against the Lisbon treaty. Yeah well done!

[Veronica Newman]

65% of Tory members say "never" to Britain joining the Euro.
Why didn't I see a similar headline for 81% of Tory members voting for English Votes on English Laws and a fairer share of public spending when asked what the Conservatives should do next?
Swept that one under the carpet then??

[The Bishop Swine]

"Perhaps I am in an exceptional position, but I doubt it, so why is it that absolutely nobody I know, or work with has ever expressed any desire whatsoever to join the Euro. Long live Sterling !"

I suspect that you would be suprised but a lot of people want a return to LSD. Lets get some real money in our pockets again.