The European Parliament adopts flag, anthem and other symbols of nation

Beethoven's Ode to Joy will be used to open European Parliamentary sessions.

The EU flag will fly from all parliamentary buildings.

The European Parliament has also endorsed a Europe Day and motto.

A press release from the EPP group welcomed the vote by MEPs:

"The European Parliament today voted on the report on the usage of the symbols of the European Union by the Parliament. The aim of this proposal is that by reinforcing the already-existing symbols, it brings European citizens closer to the common Europe, the roots."

Tory MEPs voted against the adoption of EU symbols; symbols that were included in the Constitution but dropped for the Lisbon Treaty.

Syed Kamall MEP told ConservativeHome:

"The Labour government told us that the Lisbon Treaty was different to the Constitution since the symbols of the EU had been removed from the text.  However, the European Parliament today voted to use these symbols. Another reason not to believe anything the government told us about the Lisbon Treaty being different to the constitution."

The result of the vote to use EU symbols such as the flag, motto and anthem was celebrated by the EPP in its press release, clearly demonstrating that David Cameron is right to take Conservative MEPs out of the EPP.

Comments

[Sally Roberts]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/3167928/Sovereignty-threat-after-European-parliament-adopts-flag-and-anthem.html

Here's a link to the story in the Daily Telegraph. Those who have rudely described Mr Kirkhope in the past as a Europhile may like to reconsider ... and perhaps even apologise?

[RichardJ]

"Those who have rudely described Mr Kirkhope in the past as a Europhile may like to reconsider"

I seem to recall he defended the existence of the common external tariff in answer to one of my questions a few weeks ago. Sounds Europhile to me.

[RichardJ]

I take that back, I'm getting mixed up with Dr Charles Tannock.

[RichardJ]

"The Liberal Democrat MEP Andrew Duff, a European federalist, said opposition to the move was nothing but "petty nationalism"."

That says all we need to know about the lib Dems.

Apologies for 3 posts in a row.

[Sally Roberts]

"I take that back, I'm getting mixed up with Dr Charles Tannock."

Don't tell me all MEPs look the same to you...! ;-)

Agree with you 100% about the Lib Dems though.

[A. Osborne]

Global financial system in meltdown followed by a recession and we need this EU irrelevance?

More time should be spent on discussing mark-to-market and the EU Capital Requirements Directive(s) and the roles they are playing in this mess. But then that would be banging on about Europe and boring.

[GB£.com]

Look, I hate to defend the EU, but this move makes sense with its single political union aim. Of course a USE will want its national symbols.

Now, will the Tories stop insulting our intelligence with all this obvious lie about 'reform' and 'repatriating powers'.

If you want to be part of the EU, you will be bound by its rules and progression towards political union, which is fair enough. But if you don't, the only option is to leave.

Stop attacking the EU. Join in or get out. Stop deceiving the public with this 'reform' lie please.

[G Robinson]

"...David Cameron is right to take Conservative MEPs out of the EPP". He promised that prior to the last General Election, "within weeks". We are still waiting. Can we believe anything that any politician tells us?

[London Tory]

I bet little Iceland wishes it were in the EU today :)

'they wanted their cod..... now they have got no wad'.

[R.Baker.]

Why are the Conservative Party so called Eurosceptics absent and not to be heard while this stuff is going on?
I hope they are only regrouping, rather than throwing in the towel.

[michael mcgough]

"Tory MEPs voted against the adoption of EU symbols; symbols that were included in the Constitution but dropped for the Lisbon Treaty"

And it made no difference whatsoever.Better to leave the EU now or be hung with the flag later.

[Dorian Lee Harvey]

Ode to Joy? Freudenabteilung or otherwise known as Joy Division (no, not Love Will Tear Us Apart Again, the ones with the big black leather boots and can-can marching).

Circular symbology? Now where have we, uniquely, seen that before on a European flag? Every single national flag in Europe is linear uppy downy or side to side or at the most some angled bits but we are told that a circle of stars on a blue background is the way to go. Picture, if you will, a circle of black stars in a white circle on a red background.

Conspiracy Theory 903.1 Subsection 2. Grassy Knowle.

[Sally Roberts]

"'they wanted their cod..... now they have got no wad'."

That's very good London Tory - You're a Poet and Don't Know it!

[Sally Roberts]

"Ode to Joy? Freudenabteilung or otherwise known as Joy Division (no, not Love Will Tear Us Apart Again, the ones with the big black leather boots and can-can marching)."

Er no, Dorian - Beethoven actually! The last movement his 9th Symphony.

An amazing piece of work - I've had the good luck to take part in a choral performance when I was a member of the Royal Choral Society some years back.

Suggest you give Mr Beethoven a listen some time - he's rather good!

[Jacob]

1. So what if the EU has an anthem? It is not 'national' anthem because the EU is not a 'nation'.

2. It is not the 'EU Flag'. It is the 'European' flag. Before the EC adopted it it was used by the Council of Europe - an organisation totally separate from the European Union which I am quite sure none of you want to leave.

3. The day designated by the EC as Europe Day (9 May) has been celebrated since 1985. Personally I have not felt any lack of sovereignty because of this. Its official recognition makes no difference. Again, the Council of Europe has celebrated Europe Day on 5 May since 1964.

4. A motto? Plenty of things have mottos - families, colleges, companies, counties, international organisations etc etc etc.

There is plenty of valid criticism to throw at the European Union - there is really no need to care about these petty things.

[Pat Guide]

The EU and anti-British MEPs like Andrew Duff know what to do with their EU national anthem and EU flag. Yes, they can stick up their backsides.

[Nigel]

Jacob - at last, a voice of sanity.

[Alastair Forsyth]

The financial crisis makes it clearer than ever that the right course for Britain and the Conservative Party is constructive engagement as a nation state in the European Union. This is not federalism. It is not any ideology, eurosceptic or europhile. It is common sense.

Those who have tried to block the way bear the blame for the fact that EU institutions, now when we need them, are not more effective defenders and promoters of our national and communal interest, particularly in the fields of defence and finance.

[Ulster Tory]

""'they wanted their cod..... now they have got no wad'."

That's very good London Tory - You're a Poet and Don't Know it!"

He speaks in rhyme, all the time!

[Dorian G Spot]

'Suggest you give Beethoven a listen some time - he's rather good!'

I have better things to do than listen to a St Bernard barking. Rubbish film really, Turner and Hooch was much better. One only listens to Handel who turned to the light and became an Englishman.

[Sally Roberts]

"The financial crisis makes it clearer than ever that the right course for Britain and the Conservative Party is constructive engagement as a nation state in the European Union. This is not federalism. It is not any ideology, eurosceptic or europhile. It is common sense."

Exactly, Mr Forsyth! This is what the Conservative Party has been arguing for, but the UKIPPERS and BOOS refuse to engage with - that we should remain within the EU and work for reform from within. A Europe of Nation States.

Sadly however the squawks on here continue and grow ever louder!

It is good to hear your dulcet tones - a "still small voice" one might say!

[Pat Guide]

Britain says:

NO to EU Rule,
No to EU Flags,
No to EU Anthems.

We would be grateful for all of those who want to live in a United Europe ruled from Brussels to f**k off over to Belgium and leave us to get on with the job of sorting out rebuilding Britain.

[Ken Stevens]

EUphobes’ Anthem

The British, the British, the British are best.
I don’t give two Euros for all of the rest.

For, crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
of the Germans and French or Italians and Dutch
(though Irish and Czechs deserve full approbation
for holding up Lisbon’s full ratification)

The British are moral, the British are good
and clever and modest and misunderstood.

All through the EU, every nation’s the same.
They’ve simply no notion of playing the game,
preaching unity’s merits, yet go their own way
in their national interests – and expect us to pay!

The British, the British, the British are best
So up with the British and down with the rest.

The others aren’t wicked or naturally bad.
It’s knowing they’re foreign that makes them so sad.
They’re lovely as friends and commercially
but don’t let us join in their US of E.

With heartfelt apologies to Flanders & Swann “Song of Patriotic Prejudice”, which was actually about the English and also had some tongue-in-cheek digs at our Celtic fringes!

;-)

[RichardJ]

"The financial crisis makes it clearer than ever that the right course for Britain and the Conservative Party is constructive engagement as a nation state in the European Union."

How? This implies a financial system regulated by the EU. I don't think the city would like that. We don't need the EU to sort out our banking system, we're perfectly capable of instituting a system of sound money ourselves.

We need the EU for free trade, nothing more.

"There is plenty of valid criticism to throw at the European Union - there is really no need to care about these petty things."

Symbolism isn't petty. EU-philes hate these issues being mentioned because they know the public is firmly anti-federalist and EU-sceptic.

[Treacle]

How long before our craven institutions cave into pressure to use the flag and anthem at national events?

The BBC will fall over itself to use them at every opportunity.

So, like the Scots do with God save the Queen it's whistles out time boys and girls. lets drown the wretched thing out - every time.

[Treacle]

How long before our craven institutions cave into pressure to use the flag and anthem at national events?

The BBC will fall over itself to use them at every opportunity.

So, like the Scots do with God save the Queen it's whistles out time boys and girls. lets drown the wretched thing out - every time.

[Doreen]

We were told that we could not have a referendum because the Lisbon Treaty was different from the EU Constitution. The difference cited was the absence from the Lisbon Treaty of the EU symbols such as the flag and anthem.
Now that the symbols appear to have been reintroduced, the two documents must be the same, and therefore there is no reason to deny us a referendum!

[GB£.com]

Jacob @ 10:26

Would you kindly list which other 'organisation' other than a nation has a flag, an anthem, and seeks a foreign minister and embassies?

I'm just interested.

[Libertarian]

Sally, let's get the facts straight on Timothy Kirkhope.

As Leader of the Tory delegation and Vice-President of the EPP-ED Group, he failed to implement the Howard Agreement and plotted against Cameron's policy of a divorce from the EPP. The Howard agreement would have enabled the ED Group to use allowances and EP budget to set up its own secretariat to promote policies (such as the repatriation of powers to Westminster and opposition to the constitution/Lisbon Treaty)

All European Candidates in 2004, including Kirkhope, pledged in writing to support and implement the Howard agreement. Under Kirkhope's (and Chichester's and Bradbourne's) leadership, the ED Group exists in name only. All the allowances go straight to the EPP. The ED Group does not even have a page on the EPP-ED website. It was taken down months ago. That's why the MEPs should have been accountable to the party members by facing deselection.

Kirkhope's actions demonstrate that, after becoming a VP of the EPP-ED Group, he went native. His voting record is IMHO one of the most EUphile in the delegation. That's why the members in Yorkshire demoted him to number 2, behind MacMillan-Scott who has never hidden his EUphilia.

[Sally Roberts]

"I have better things to do than listen to a St Bernard barking. Rubbish film really"

Oh dear Dorian - I fear there is no hope for you! ;-(

And yes it was a rubbish film - "Lady and The Tramp" was much better!

[Sally Roberts]

I clearly needed educating, Libertarian - thank you for enlightening me.

[Rugfish]

Common Market and an alliance of sovereign states working together = FINE

Anyone other than us controlling laws, parliament, immigration, our banks and finance and our democratic sovereignties - NOT FINE

Therefore, stick that flag where the sun don't shine and give it a rest on the Euro rampager front because nothing will change England until the English get to say so !!!

And before anyone starts yapping on about the referendum in 1975 they'd best read Margaret Thatchers archives first and the secret meeting held between Pompidou and Heath 4 years earlier.

[Jane Gould]

WE still have playground name-calling when it comes to the emotive subject of the EU. Europhile and Eurosceptic are out of date.We have to be more intelligent than that. One of DC's great achievements has been to encourage people to see past and beyond labels and prejudices. In other words, to become properly braod-minded in the right and useful sense of the word.
In this modern world, we really cannot hide behind outdated groupings; but should consider ideas and decisions on their merits.
the idea of policy source flagging - discussed a couple of days ago - was a good one, as it would land responsibility in the rigth place, instead of the knee-jerk "blame Europe" that is still prevalent in some quarters.

[David Parker]

It is not so much the symbolism which matters, everyone (except Kenneth Clarke) knows that the sole purpose of the EU is the progression towards a single, supreme European state and government.
What does, however, matter is that this demonstrates the utter ruthlessness, and contempt for the views of the reluctant citizens of this superstate, with which the unelected oligarchs of the EU Commission and their lackeys in the European Parliament are determined to achieve this goal.

If the flag and anthem symbols have upset the peasants and delayed the acceptance of the Constitution; "Fine! We'll take them out and make a few cosmetic changes, change its name, drop the pretence that this represents the will of the peasants, lean on any of their leaders stupid enough to promise them a referendum (nasty dangerous things these: look what happened last time!) then, once it has been adopted by all the puppet state governments, we'll put everything back in again"

Then, on second thoughts, "Er, No! We won't bother to wait until the Listitution has been accepted by all the last, stroppy, vassal states, we'll bring back the anthem and the flag (better make the flying of that compulsory) right away: Just to show them who is in charge and that we won't stand any nonsense."

[Rugfish]

http://www.ena.lu/

The relaunch of European integration 1955

From the autumn of 1954, following the rejection of the European Defence Community by members of the French parliament, some European militant movements – such as the Action Committee for the United States of Europe, set up in October 1955 by Jean Monnet after he had resigned from chairmanship of the ECSC High Authority in protest at the failure of the EDC – together with some Benelux leaders, set about reviving a Community plan - ( sound familiar )??? - that provided solutions to the specific problems of economic integration. Still traumatised by the failure of the EDC, they refused to let European unification get bogged down.

All of this is of course very familiar to us because it shows they have always refused to accept no for an answer.

Similarly, Robert Schuman decided to leave French parliamentarians in the dark, fearing that they would be more interested in the institutional implications than in the project itself.

Very few people outside France were aware of the plan. Bypassing diplomatic channels, the American Secretary of State, Dean Acheson, was informed personally of the plan and he immediately assured Schuman of his interest and support.
On 8 May, Schuman himself presented his plan to the five Ministers for Economic Affairs from Great Britain, the three Benelux countries and Italy at a highly secret meeting in Paris.

On the evening of 8 May, all the working documents were destroyed.

[Dave C]

I'm curious. Can any of those people arguing for staying in the EU and reforming it from the inside provide any evidence of any reform that has been accomplished in the British interest? Thanks.

[Sally Roberts]

Dave C and others - can I suggest you have a look at the speech made by David Cameron to the Movement for European Reform

http://www.europeanreform.eu/the-eu-a-new-agenda-for-the-21st-century/

You may well find that if you read it carefully it will prove educational.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Dave C | October 10, 2008 at 11:57
I'm curious. Can any of those people arguing for staying in the EU and reforming it from the inside provide any evidence of any reform that has been accomplished in the British interest? Thanks.

The British rebate.

[Rugfish]

"The Czech Prime Minister and I come from different countries"

Yip.
I didn't know that.
Very clever speech then eh.

lol

[Rugfish]

"There are two ways that a British politician can speak in Europe".

Presumably one way is FOR and the other is AGAINST ?

I'm learning all the time here Sally.
Clever bloke that David Cameron I reckon.

[Sally Roberts]

"lol"

Indeed - funny little fish, aren't you, Rugfish?!

[GB£.com]

"Dave C and others - can I suggest you have a look at the speech made by David Cameron to the Movement for European Reform"

Hi Sally,
Please would you kindly remind how many countries have signed up to that since it was created two and a half years ago?

Also, could you tell me the last time a new article was added to the 'recent articles' section of the europeanreform.eu site? A day, a week, a month?

[Rugfish]

I can.

"lol"

Hey, this Euro mumbo jumbo has got the better of me as it happens.
I used to think it was all just ridiculous and now I think it's hilarious.

Roll out the EFTA drum please before my humour disappears again.

( Sally - I'm glad you took it in fun, because Dave's my mate too ) - lol

[sally Roberts]

Hi there GB!

You know the answer to that as well as I do - the work is ongoing.
As for the updating of the MER website - well as far as I know that's up to the Leader of the Conservative Delegation so I suggest you take it up with Mr Bushill-Matthews.

[sally Roberts]

"( Sally - I'm glad you took it in fun, because Dave's my mate too ) - lol"

Well we need a laugh, Rugfish at times like this when the money markets are freefalling as we write - that's why I've escaped into fantasyland and spent a lot of time on this thread (maybe too much?) this morning!

We all need to keep our sense of humour in tough times! :-)

[GB£.com]

LoL Sally.:-)

Amidst all the market doom and gloom, you are a ray of sunshine.

A delusional ray of sunshine, but a ray of sunshine nonetheless!

But you made me smile. :-)

[sally Roberts]

Thanks GB! :-)

[resident leftie]

Poor Tim! Poor Tory Eurofoamers!

Despite his commitment, Opportunity Dave isn't going to leave the EPP. He just said that to get elected leader. Try to get a statement from him reaffirming his promise and see what happens.

[GB£.com]

That's GB£ don't you know. Was it too painful to add the '£'? ;-)

You may prefer GB€ but you'll just have to be patient and wait for Mr Cameron to become PM to see that.

[sally Roberts]

Sorry GB£! NO I was not waiting for the Euro but simply shortening your name as in a nickname - I often call Grumpy Old Man "Grumps" too and he hasn't complained - so far anyway! ;-)

[john parkes]

Playing the EU "national anthem" indeed! I don`t think we should stand for it

[Rugfish]

"Playing the EU "national anthem" indeed! I don`t think we should stand for it"

True British humour !
I Love it !

Anymore EU "cracks" like that ??? lol

[Martin Coxall]

Oh, wait. What's this? NATO has a flag and an anthem. Guess it must be a 'nation' too.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Martin Coxall | October 10, 2008 at 13:01
Oh, wait. What's this? NATO has a flag and an anthem. Guess it must be a 'nation' too.

And the boy scouts.

[sally Roberts]

"And the boy scouts."

Don't think "Ging Gang Goolie" counts as a National Anthem?! lol!

[GB£.com]

The Salvation Army too Martin.

I'm not sure what the currencies of NATO or Salvation Army are though, as I seem to be having trouble finding them on Bloomberg...

[Dave C]

Resident Leftie, are you talking about the British rebate that was slashed by Blair in return for precisely nothing? How was that reform in Britain's interest? Pay more and get less seems to be the way of the left.

[Rugfish]

I think the Tufty Club also has a flag and an anthem similar to that of the European Union.

Is it the same ?

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Dave C | October 10, 2008 at 13:21

Resident Leftie, are you talking about the British rebate that was slashed by Blair in return for precisely nothing? How was that reform in Britain's interest? Pay more and get less seems to be the way of the left.

The question was - give an example of "negotiating from within" which gave Britain a clear benefit. Thatcher's rebate is such an example. Or do you dispute that?

The rebate is still present, and I disagree with your interpretation.

[sally Roberts]

"I think the Tufty Club also has a flag and an anthem similar to that of the European Union.

Is it the same ?"

Ah the late lamented Tufty Club of which I was a member!
I don't recall it having an Anthem but it did have a rather fetching squirrel badge....

Actually come to think of it, after their Conference near Brownsea Island our Cousins the UKIPPERS might like to adopt it as their symbol?

Now I'd better be quiet and take care crossing the road otherwise Mr Policeman Badger will be after me....

[David_at_Home]

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, if we were not in the EU and did not have to pay fees of some £14bn gross or £5bn net, then we would not need a rebate would we?

Sometimes, Resident Leftie, I almost believe you are quite sensible but then you go and ruin it!

[Edward Huxley]

For the EU to make a statement like this at the present time just shows how out of touch Brussels is.Who cares about the wretched anthem and flag?

From Open Europe today: former commissioner Mario Monti, in De Standaard said "...the EU faces the choice; further integration or disintegration".

Let`s hope we soon get that choice. We will be much Better Off Out.

[GB£.com]

Of course, for UKIP their logo should be the red squirrel, and for the EU the grey.

I think that would explain Britain's relationship with the EU perfectly!

[sally Roberts]

"Of course, for UKIP their logo should be the red squirrel, and for the EU the grey."

Touche, GB£ - except of course that the red squirrels are gradually approaching extinction - driven out by the greys!

[GB£.com]

My point entirely! The EU is to Britain what the grey squirrel is to the red.

But don't worry, Cameron has plans to reform the grey squirrel.

[sally Roberts]

"But don't worry, Cameron has plans to reform the grey squirrel."

Indeed he does, GB£ - wait and see!

Now I really must go before the discussion descends into speculation as to where squirrels hide their nuts.

[Libertarian]

"I clearly needed educating, Libertarian - thank you for enlightening me.

Posted by: Sally Roberts | October 10, 2008 at 11:15"

Just woken up after fainting!

[GB£.com]

Indeed. If only Mr Lilico could raise his intellectual game to our level of discussion. He really lets the side down.

[Bishop Swine]

I am quite happy for Europe to have all of the trappings of a nation providing it accepts the seniority of the royal houses.
I am more than willing to allow Europe into the fold of crown states. However I suspect that many of the Europeans would not be comfortable with such an arrangement. More fool them then I say and if that is the case we would be better off out and soon as well.

[Ken Stevens]

Sally Roberts
"the red squirrels are gradually approaching extinction - driven out by the greys!"

And in any reports about grey squirrels, they are invariably described as 'alien species', destroying the red's habitat, therefore necessitating strenuous efforts to stop this process continuing.

See what happens when you let the b&@#$*s in!

;-)

[JS]

I welcome this vote as an additional psychocological aid to the unity and strength of the European Union - so vitally necessary for both the political and economic future of our country. The little Englanders, lost in their romantic escapism, who oppose all this co-operation and integration probably still want the man with the red flag to walk in front of their cars! How else can we defend our real interests against America or Russia unless we're a solid part of Europe.

[resident leftie]

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, if we were not in the EU and did not have to pay fees of some £14bn gross or £5bn net, then we would not need a rebate would we?

Sometimes, Resident Leftie, I almost believe you are quite sensible but then you go and ruin it!

Posted by: David_at_Home | October 10, 2008 at 13:37

The question wasn't "what are the benefits of EU membership" - a quite different question - but what is an example of the "reform from within" strategy working? This is such an example.

I'm up for a "net benefits of membership" argument, but really, I think the Editor needs to trigger that debate. I've been over it enough times before.

[Chris]

In Bavaria, the radio signs off every night with the Bavarian Hymn, then the German National Anthem and then last of all, the Ode to Joy.

At the end of a OeVP party rally in Austria, they had the Austrian National Anthem followed by the Ode to Joy. I sat down for the second, causing much agitation among the assembled Alpine throng.

This search for a new identity is driven by Germans not wanting to admit that they are err.... German. Suppose it is understandable given the history but there again would I give up on being British just because of the horrible things done in our country at the time of the Reformation.

[resident leftie]

Oh, sorry, I appear to have accidentally taken this thread seriously.

Back to squirrels.

I thought you lot would be pleased to rid the country of Reds!

[Ken Stevens]

JS
"..How else can we defend our real interests against America or Russia unless we're a solid part of Europe..."

What is it that we are needing to defend, via Europe, against America?

And what is it that EU will defend against Russia? Gas supplies, maybe?

[David Parker]

Resident leftie,
The British rebate was the result of some one off hard financial horse trading. It did not, in any way, reform the structure, powers, or competences of the EU.

Sally Roberts,
You persistently accuse eurosceptics (for want of a better word) of failing to engage with you and other EU supporters in discussions about our membership of the EU. But, if you look at the posts upon this, and several other threads, you will find that many of them, probably the majority, do respond to many of your less flippant posts (but please don't stop those ones!) and with replies which contain serious arguments,supported by facts and often links to official documents (including EU law)and other verifiable sources.

One of the major problems is the obscurity and complexity, as an institution,of the EU itself. This is not accidental, as any in- depth study of the history of the European Project will reveal. It does, however, as was deliberately intended, tend to make detailed discussion of the pros and cons of EU membership a distinct turn off, so far as many of the general public are concerned.

This suits the pro EU lobby, since it allows them to make exaggerated and unsubstantiated claims for the benefits of EU membership, often accompanied by disparaging remarks about their opponents, for want of facts with which to back up their claims. However, the refutation of these claims and misrepresentations often involves detailed explanations and factual references,to which both press and politicians are often reluctant to devote sufficient time and attention, for fear of boring their audiences.

Few contributors to this blog would question Sally Roberts' sincerity or boundless optimism for Cameron and all his works, but, where the EU is concerned, blind faith is a dangerous substitute for facts.

[Ash Faulkner]

Some people are being very facetious here. 'Omg the Boy Scouts have an anthemn too lolol are they a nation???!!!!' Well when the Boy Scouts acquire an independent parliament and judiciary, and seek the establishment of a 'Boy Scouts foreign policy' and the Scoutish dollar as their own currency, then people might begin to look at those symbols of identity such as a flag and an anthemn with a considerably greater degree of suspicion than they did before.

You don't have to be Joseph Goebbels to know how important symbolism is. The creation of a flag and a 'Europe Day' is a clear attempt to create a sense of European identity. It serves the exact same purpose as the Scouts anthemn. The difference is the latter are not simultaneously seeking political power.

Why the hell do you think Alex Salmond has the saltire flying wherever he can put it?

[GB£.com]

I really don't think it is actually worth taking an discussions regarding the EU in Conservative circles seriously, so I welcome the mischief.

We're really just going to have to sit back for a while, hope Cameron wins the election, then watch him do nothing to halt Britain's further integration into political union.

He'll have a last 'eusceptic' hurrah next year, banging on about a pre-ratification referendum, knowing that Lisbon will be ratified before he is PM. He'll also pledge EPP withdrawal to the politicos, but will find that 'circumstances' after the euros mean that you shouldn't leave 'quite yet'.

So we'll have a Tory PM during a deep recession, who will raise taxes and introduce the Euro then get booted out of office, delaying ID cards for one parliament.

So that's the next 6 years mapped out, have a good weekend! :-)

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Ash Faulkner | October 10, 2008 at 15:16
You don't have to be Joseph Goebbels to know how important symbolism is. The creation of a flag and a 'Europe Day' is a clear attempt to create a sense of European identity. It serves the exact same purpose as the Scouts anthemn. The difference is the latter are not simultaneously seeking political power.

It is possible that you took my analogy a little too seriously.

The flag and anthem were established in 1985, and have been used throughout the Union ever since. This vote merely establishes that fact. It does not create so much as reflect European identity.

That said, you've mentioned the Nazis, and I invoke Godwin's Law, and hereby win the argument.

[David]

We are going to see the EU getting bolder quickly. Can't see this party doing anything to counter this.

[John Broughton]

Alistair @ 10:35 and supported by Sally @10:50

“The financial crisis makes it clearer than ever that the right course for Britain and the Conservative Party is constructive engagement as a nation state in the European Union. This is not federalism. It is not any ideology, eurosceptic or europhile. It is common sense.
Those who have tried to block the way bear the blame for the fact that EU institutions, now when we need them, are not more effective defenders and promoters of our national and communal interest, particularly in the fields of defence and finance.”

This is purely an assertion/opinion made without any foundation in fact and is exactly what the BBC repeatedly does, nor is it common sense.

EU institutions will only lead to further damaging and pointless regulation. When Brown neutered the Bank of England and imposed the useless (and according to some observers Marxist) FSA on the country he made it impossible to take effective and expeditious action.

Other threads on Con Hom have already explained why Basel 11 has been such a malign influence in the current situation.

JS @ 14:29

“The little Englanders, lost in their romantic escapism, who oppose all this co-operation and integration probably still want the man with the red flag to walk in front of their cars! How else can we defend our real interests against America or Russia unless we're a solid part of Europe.”

It is strange how people try to demonise the voices of sanity and reason with insults rather than logic.

Perhaps you would explain why our interests lie with Europe rather than America and Russia. I take the view that our interests are global and not served by being part of the eu which operates to exclude competition and antagonise certain other countries.

In any event the thread was about symbols originally and the epp said:

"The European Parliament today voted on the report on the usage of the symbols of the European Union by the Parliament. The aim of this proposal is that by reinforcing the already-existing symbols, it brings European citizens closer to the common Europe, the roots."

Expressions such as “reinforcing” simply remind me that the eu grows ever more distant from the electorate and democracy.

[Rugfish]

Everyman Joe and his neighbour knows the EU is clapped out.

It developed the idea of protectionism - this will fail.

Globalism will also fail if countries are uniting into a protectionist area under pretence of being global as does the EU.

The road to success lies with Russia both politically and economically, whilst simultaneously twisting the arm of the USA to join in our multi-polar alliance of free and sovereign nations, all working toward one trade agreement which doesn't essentially mean a host of demostic law changes including justice, the environment. foreign policy and immigration.

The plan has fallen apart simply because every man knows he's not been asked. ( And ladies of course ).

So once people begin to figure Russia will soon be the richest nation on earth with its oil deposits, gold reserves, natural resources and the means to get them all, and they begin to see its a democratic federation rather than the old clapped out USSR which the EU still hankers after copying, then there could just be a glimmer of peace in the world which will be the real benefit for mankind, not a heap of bureaucratic claptrap which currently stifles it.

Flag or no flag.

Incidentally, the EU has just gone back on its environmental promises so Brown's out in the cold on that and Cameron should now look pretty good if he can raise a decent argument to make Brown look even more stupid than he is.

Nice weekend all.

[Dorian Delorean]

'I thought you lot would be pleased to rid the country of Reds!'

Posted by: resident leftie | October 10, 2008 at 14:46

'You lot'?? I call for the immediate suspension of these talks and will now only talk to Boris and am calling a freeze on all recruitment herewith.

Resident Leftie: Institutionalised ism-ist!

[Richard North]

What a marvellous example of this.

[Cleethorpes Rock]

I'm registered to vote in Yorkshire and Humber, so if I vote Conservative in the Euros, I'm in effect voting for Edward McMillan Scott and Tim Kirkhope.

Since these two have done bugger all in terms of "repatriating" powers to Britain, I can't see any point in voting for them again. Looks like I might have to "lend" my vote to someone who cares about this country.

[Pat Guide]

My feeling is that any MEP, MP, Scottish Assembly Member, Welsh Assembly Member, Northern Ireland Assembly Member who advocates or anyone else who tries to promote, advocates or is seen to be working for the break up of the Union Kingdom in favour of Home Rule or Brussels rule should be tried for treason or at the very least be stripped of their citizenship.

The pro EU and anti British groups and individuals have had their way for too long. It's time they were sorted out or asked to leave the UK if they hate it so much.

[Malcolm Dunn]

I've never approved of being rude to other countries anthems and used to cringe when opponents anthems were booed at Wembley.
However in the case of the EU anthem I think I'll make an exception. I wouldn't stand for it anywhere and if anyone was foolish enough to play it in Britain everyone nearby would hear at this Englishman booing his heart out. Not good manners I know, but it's equally bad manners to introduce this crap to us without asking us first.

[resident leftie]

Posted by: Pat Guide | October 10, 2008 at 18:15 ,

The pro EU and anti British groups and individuals have had their way for too long. It's time they were sorted out or asked to leave the UK if they hate it so much.

I'm sure if they did, you and Nigel Farage would be very happy here alone.

[Ken Stevens]

resident leftie
"..would be very happy here alone..."

If you're so certain of their isolation in such an instance, then presumably you have no objections to a referendum that would overwhelmingly prove your contention?

Do Messrs Brown & Co share your certainty?
Seemingly not.

[Resident Leftie]

Posted by: Ken Stevens | October 10, 2008 at 20:21
If you're so certain of their isolation in such an instance, then presumably you have no objections to a referendum that would overwhelmingly prove your contention?

I'd be in favour of an in/out referendum if when we voted yes, all the "Nos" would promise not to mention Europe for another 30 years if we voted Yes.

[Ash Faulkner]

"The flag and anthem were established in 1985, and have been used throughout the Union ever since. This vote merely establishes that fact. It does not create so much as reflect European identity."

When did you last celebrate Europe Day? It might reflect feeling in certain countries, but it doesn't in Britain where these festivities are ignored. Again it shows the futility of pushing one culture onto dozens of different ones. In any case this is circular logic: the flag is only 'used throughout the Union' because the EU stamps it everywhere.

That said, you've mentioned the Nazis, and I invoke Godwin's Law, and hereby win the argument.

Ah, you have misunderstood Godwin's Law, which refers only to the probability of a Nazi reference occuring; it doesn't state whether that reference is appropriate.

I think you mean 'reducto ad Hitlerum', which is an ad hominem attack dismissing something simply because the Nazis did it. 'Banning foxhunting because Hitler did it' is a clear example. Nowhere did I say anything was bad because Goebbels did it. On the contrary, I actually said 'You don't have to be Joseph Goebbels...' I was actually saying that far from being bad, Goebbels was very good - as far as recognising the importance of symbolism goes.

Two can play at that game ;)

[Mark Heenan]

I really don't get the whole thing about the flag and the anthem. The Olympics has a flag and an anthem - so what? There are any number of directives and bills going through the European legislature at any one time, none of which get the proper coverage or scrutiny because everyone's too busy talking about flags and anthems...

[sally Roberts]

"are any number of directives and bills going through the European legislature at any one time, none of which get the proper coverage or scrutiny because everyone's too busy talking about flags and anthems..."

You're quite right Mark Heenan - there is plenty of other stuff happening but the fact is that Timothy Kirkhope is the Constitutional spokesman for the Conservative Group so is therefore merely doing his job by highlighting the matter we have been discussing at length! Good for him that the media has picked up on the story so readily!

[Ken Stevens]

Resident Leftie
"I'd be in favour of an in/out referendum if when we voted yes, all the "Nos" would promise not to mention Europe for another 30 years if we voted Yes."

I'd accept that deal, provided it works both ways. And the date for the referendum (arranged by any major party) is when...?

[sally Roberts]

""I'd be in favour of an in/out referendum if when we voted yes, all the "Nos" would promise not to mention Europe for another 30 years if we voted Yes."

I'd accept that deal, provided it works both ways."

So would I, Ken!

[Mara MacSeoinin]

The introduction of such symbols of nationhood are extremely dangerous; one should never overlook the power of symbolism (the Christian cross, Magen David, the Union Jack, Coca Cola etc) and the profound, deep and ineradicable effect that it has upon an individual's psyche. In fact, according to a recent survey, 95% of Americans said that they would 'physically attack' anyone who burnt the Stars and Stripes; that they would treat it more reverently than, say, the Bible.
In the context of an EU flag and anthem, we are not referring to smaller organisations such as the Salvation Army that one can join by choice. We are speaking of a huge geographical area of states made disparate by their individual histories and cultures, terrain and languages and belief systems brought together in one amorphous mass by bureaucrats who have insidiously, year after year, turned Europe from a continent of interconnected countries with friendly and profitable free trade agreements into one strictly and rigorously governed in terms of law, of so-called human rights, and surveillance and security.
All this serves to homogenize every country that belongs to the EU and robs it of freedoms of behaviour and expression it formerly took for granted. The further imposition of symbols of nationhood serves to eradicate our individuality. It is as if Brussels is using 1984 as an instruction booklet. And as with everything regarding the EU, so it seems, we have not been asked whether we approve this imposition of a European 'identity'; we have been informed that it is going to happen.

[Ken Stevens]

Sally Roberts
"So would I, Ken!"

So when do we get one?

Genuinely, I'd accept the verdict either way in a clearcut referendum.

What I cannot accept is that such a fundamental change in our constitutional position should happen without any such consent.

It is not something that one could argue has been consented to via representational democracy, since it radically changes the basis of the current representational system - which process has already got under way. One vote every few years on a whole raft of policies offered by the main parties can hardly be considered sufficient mandate for this major purpose.

Taken to the ultimate, a United States of Europe headed by a president means in effect abolition of the monarchy. How could the remaining European monarchies have any continuing validity while being subordinate to the USE president?

If changing to a republic is the wish of the people (and is it?), let that be expressed as a positive consequence arising from such referendum, rather than drifting into it incrementally by default.

Separate debates from time to time about disestablishment, erastian system, etc, are really rather pointless when these other incompatible constitutional things are trundling along in parallel.

[Derek W. Buxton]

Some strange comments from the EUrophile wing, they have suddenly become noisy. Our financial problems are exacerbated by the EU as you must know, mark to market and all that. Wind turbines required by the EU, costing us, you and me, millions in subsidy boosting the profits of mainly foreign companies. And now by 2010 we will have to change all our light bulbs. Indeed the asylum is being run by lunatics, some of them our own.

[Richard Balfe]

Rugfish tells us of the "relaunch of Europpean integration". He has his dates and facts completely wrong.
1. The Schuman plan was launched on 8th May 1950 long before the events rugfish writes about.
2. If I remember rightly Britain was not represented at the meeting when the plans were presented but Germany who rugfish omitted certainly was. Maybe he confused the two countries!
3. All the papers were not destroyed. A full set was retained by Dean Acheson and a copy of the is to be found with the papers in the Truman Library in Missouri.
Richard Balfe

[Willy Humbold]

Complain if you want. But do something better: vote YES to Free Europe at www.FreeEurope.info