The Conservative AND Unionist Party

It's not often that political leaders can meet without their plans leaking but months of negotiations between the Conservatives and the Ulster Unionist Party have taken place without the Westminster village reporting on them.  Following much spadework by Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary Owen Paterson MP, David Cameron and the UUP's Reg Impey have announced a joint working party that may result in what Mr Cameron calls the "creation of a new mainstream political party".  The two men have authored a joint article for today's Daily Telegraph.

Up until the Anglo Irish Agreement of 1986 the two parties were formally linked and many Unionist MPs served in Conservative governments.  This initiative may see a return to those days but the UUP is a shadow of its former self.  It has just one MP at Westminster, Sylvia Hermon, and its former leader, David Trimble, defected to the Conservatives last year.  The UUP remains a reasonable force in local government, however.  115 of NI's 582 councillors belong to the UUP compared to 126 Sinn Fein councillors and 182 DUP councillors.

From the UUP's perspective an alliance with the resurgent Conservatives may offer the best hope of electoral recovery.  A recent YouGov poll of NI voters, commissioned by Owen Paterson and NI Conservatives, found that "45% would be Very Likely or Likely to vote Conservative at the next general election if given the opportunity." 

Editorial comment: "ConservativeHome warmly welcomes this initiative.  Although the Conservative Party has been contesting NI elections since 1992 this potential merger represents a serious opportunity for the Tories to emerge as the only party with seats in every part of the UK.  Northern Ireland residents should be able to vote for non-sectarian parties and for an alternative to the big state politics of both the DUP and Sinn Fein."

Comments

[YourNameHere]

Anything that helps push the mad hat bigots in the DUP out to the periphery should be welcomed.

I think the time is right for the Ulster Unionists to try something. The currently lack the leadership, and the arrival of Cameron as a policial force in NI, will hopefully be welcomed.

[anonymous]

Crikey, us insulting the DUP massively again. Complete madness? if we didn't keep trying to destroy the DUP they'd vote with us every time. Don't forget: most of the old UUP voters are with the DUP currently.
As for the sectarian stuff, that's a non-issue, since unionists side with conservatives and SDLP side with labour, if we rebuff the unionists, we've got no one. I'm sorry but "merging" with the UUP is basically rebuffing the DUP, the unionists that matter.

Are we making the same mistake as in scotland, where all of a sudden we rejected the idea of being predominantly a presbyterian thing, and got a massi ve and permanent electoral smashing as a result?
Looks like the "CND lobby" (wet non-conservatives) in central office making a comeback.
In scotland and NI we should remember :
presbyterians + catholic middle class is our target. No point looking for the catholic working class in scotland and NI. they hate the tory party for what they view broadly as historical reasons. Therefore no point in rebuffing DUP, therefore this move is arguably stupid and only makes sense if you are a guardian columnist or have spent too long in london.
PS. The scottish and NI catholic middle class in my
experience aren't that interested in whether or not we are chums with the DUP. They care more about abortion, and whether or not Labour are still trying to screw over christianity.

PS. most of my family is catholic
PPS. Is this all a brilliant wheeze by pro-labour diplomats, have they managed to persuade our party to "do the right thing" and to reduce our parliamentary strength by duffing up the DUP?

[Andrew Lilico]

If we are going to do this, I'm inclined to hope that we will run our candidates in Ulster as "Conservative and Unionists", rather than them running as "Ulster Unionists" and just taking our whip in Parliament.

[grumpy old man]

It is now clear why the DUP voted for the Govt. over 42 days. Don't worry, people, this is all part of DC's political education. Let's hope that he makes the best possible use of the next 2 years.

[Kirsty]

Why not merge with the DUP as well and have the CUP, the Conservative and Unionist Party?

[Peter Berrow]

As some of the best people inside the UUP left to join the DUP ie Jeffery Donaldson, Peter Weir and Arelene Foster to name a few I would have thought it would have been better to open up talks with them, or are we just thinking about a takeover of the UUP rather than a merger?

[james]

I doubt most moderate Tories would be very happy about sharing a platform with the Iris Robinsons of this world.

[YourNameHere]

Peter Berrow - Donaldson, Weir and Foster wouldn't last 10 minutes in Cameron's Conservative Party. They are old style bigots, and pretty nasty stuff. They wouldn't be on the candidates list.

None of them have done anything positive other than play on sectarian worries and exploit people. The are best suited to Ian Paisley's party.

We want nothing to do with the DUP. See the Iris Robinson debacle.

The Ulster Unionists are broadly a middle class party, which gave up its broader appeal when it tried to transend the sectarianism and division by signing up to the Good Friday Agreement. They did the right thing, but got punished by the electorate for being unable to sell the less palatable parts.

In my experience most Ulster Unionists are pretty decent people, not at all different from most Conservatives. The DUP are not decent people, but are filled with hate.

[Didactophobe]

There are huge dangers involved in allying ourselves with what is still seen as a sectarian party, particularly one which has only a single MP.

As Andrew Lilico suggests, it can only work if the UUP gives up its identity and its candidates stand as Conservative & Unionist. If they are willing to do that, then we should certainly welcome them.

[Dorian Grape]

Is this a spoiler for Glasgow East? Yes, we get the historical connections and versus Gladstone and all that, but, a cynic might suggest that this is a play to Scottish sectarianism and unionism in an old firm context.

Yes, the Union flag still flies in parts of Ulster but I would rather talk to the face, that's everyone, not just to the red hand.

As old and beautiful and of fine colours as it may be.

Very dangerous stuff given the progress and the inability of a future Tory government to be seen as an honest broker.

[Peter Berrow]

Your name here: I would take your point more if you could at least say who you are. Till then firstly they are not bigots and secondly do we want to represent the majority view of Unionists in Ulster or a ever declining minority?

[John Bull]

This is glorious news. We must do everything in our power to defend the Union. The UUP are a grand old party and deserve all the help and assistance we can offer.

[thomas]

To the doubters above: I'm sure that Cameron et al have looked at the polling helpfully linked to above and concluded that there are many moderate voters who want to vote for a moderate UK-wide party. If 45% of NI-ers say they would vote Tory if given the chance, that means there are a lot of DUP voters who are right now thinking of going UUP next time. It's not without risk, but nothing valuable is. I think it's a brave and good decision.

[elvis parker]

Cameron has just been on BBC Radio Ulster and says he is not talking about joint candidates but essentially establishing national politics in NI

[Dr Steven King]

This is entirely to be welcomed, writing as someone who is both UU and Tory by heritage. The suggestions above that some kind of alliance with the DUP is possible is completely off the wall: it's not just 42 days or Iris Robinson's anediluvian comments, it's the whole DNA of the DUP.

Others have accused the UUP of sectarianism. Yes, of course it derives the vast bulk of its support from Protestants and other non-Catholics, but sectarianism isn't quite dead in Scotland either as we will probably see in Glasgow East tomorrow.

For the record, the UUP is the only one of the main parties at Stormont to have had an MLA from the 'other' religion.

[Dr Steven King]

Oh, and the Anglo-Irish Agreement was 1985, not 1986.

[Giles Clifton]

John Bull: I entirely concur with your sentiments.

The Ulster Unionists are historically very much a part of the wider Conservative family and I am delighted at this initiative and sincerely hope that at the next general election the electorate in Ulster will have an opportunity to vote for candidates who will take the Conservative whip.

QUIS SEPARABIT?

[Richard]

In Europe Conservative MEPs sit with Jim Nicholson the one UUP MEP, he even takes the Conservative Whip.

As for the comments about Iris Robinson, I would not be so smug, there are plenty of people in the Conservative Party (MPs included) who share her views.

[London Tory]

This is a thoroughly good thing, because the UUP has always represented the more honourable face of protestant unionism.

Unlike the grubby, hypocritical and hate filled cabal called the DUP, who's treachery over 42 days should not be forgotten by a David Cameron government.

[Watcher]

Great news for BBC Parliament viewers. Now Lady Sylvia Hermon's legs will be shown off to best advantage ;-)

[elvis parker]

Giles just to correct you if you listen to Cameron (on Radio Ulster) this is not about joint candidates this is about merger
This is about transforming politics in NI not tinkering with it

[Giles Clifton]

Thanks Elvis. I havn't heard the Radio Ulster interview with David Cameron myself but I am delighted with a proposed merger. I am also sure that a merger will allow the Ulster Unionists to keep their distinct identity within Northern Ireland whilst being part of the Conservative and Unionist Party UK wide.

[brian]

This should have been done years ago. As for the DUP, no moderate Ulsterman votes DUP.

I grew up there in council estates and I know what its like. The purpose of the DUP was to ensure that catholics were kept in their place and did not get the upper hand, to resist "papists" and a united ireland.

The DUP, it always seemed to me, were the BNP of Northern Ireland but with catholics substituting for foreigners.

[johnC]

This is great news. I hope the discussions will result in a fully merged party, known as the 'Conservative and Unionist Party' (which is our full title anyway). Congratulations to David Cameron, Owen Paterson and the UUP leadership for having the courage to pursue this. We should be supporting a return to mainstream party politics in Northern Ireland, with the dark years of sectarianiam hopefully behind us.
It will be great at the next election to see Cameron as the only main party leader visiting and campaigning in Northern Ireland (and it will add a few extra seats to our majority).

[Michael Rutherford]

Excellent news, Northern Ireland could do with a mainstream party operating in it!

Personally I think that working with the UUP is most sensible. While the DUP are more popular at the moment, if there is a serious alternative many move over.

The DUP are often nutcases, especially on social issues and I'm not quite sure how people like Iris Robinson oould possibly keep the whip while we still have lefties like Norman Tebitt around.

[RichardJ]

Excellent news, I always hoped this would happen. That said, although the DUP may have some unpalatable views, it should be commended for standing up uncompromisingly for the Unionist cause. Those opposed to the Good Friday agreement needed a voice. Unfortunately it happened to be Paisley.

[RichardJ]

Have just realised my above post might make it seem as if I think the DUP are merging with us. I wouldn't want them to, it would be an effective stick with which to beat us -"look, the Tories are merging with religious extremists".

[Letters From A Tory]

This is a smart tactical move. Cameron is obviously very conscious of the almost total absence of Conservative MPs outside of England, and this move can help reverse this trend.

[Ben Archibald]

Paterson and Cameron must be pretty satisfied the UUP can deliver an electorate and party machine. Anything which offers mainstream politics to my homeplate has to be welcomed, and I am very pleased the theory of electoral pacts with the godawful DUP seems to be on the way out. Conservative government in the UK along with a possible Fine Gael one in the ROI, coupled with the end of the enforced grand coalition, and Northern Ireland might actually be fit for human habitation in a few years. Can we have Iris Robinson arrested, and Sylvia Hermon encouraged to feck off to the pinkos while we're at it?

[Bob Jenkins]

Incredible news. Cameron is reinventing the old style Conservative and Unionist Party like many of the contributors I hope that the UUP candidates in the next election will stand under the new banner.

Not a lot has been said so far about the Shadow Secretary of State, Owen Paterson who has been working on this tirelessly. For everyone who backs and supports these moves credit should go to Owen Paterson.

It must be the most difficult job in Parliament to be the Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The national media certainly don’t give you any coverage and the local media only want to hear from the DUP of Sinn Fein. Policy is also constrained by the fear of offending one sectarian faction or another.

Given this context to be able to quietly work a way on an exciting and ambitious plan is credit to Mr Paterson. He has shown himself to be loyal to the leadership, trustworthy, as there have been no leaks at all and a great political tactician who is in tune with the majority of Conservative voters.

I am looking forward to see Mr Paterson speak at conference this year and hearing more about this plan.

[Cleethorpes Rock]

I think this is great news. It will also put pressure on Labour over their position of not fielding candidates in Northern Ireland- Kate Hoey being particularly outspoken.

Hopefully this move can start to bring Norn Iron into the British mainstream and provide a moderate centre-right, non-sectarian voice for the vast majority in Ulster. By giving Ulster voters a stake in national UK politics, they will get representation within the governing party and a seat at the Cabinet table, something the bigots at the DUP won't be able to deliver.

[Northern Tory]

This is good news. I've held separate memberships of the Conservative Party and the UUP for years. As a Unionist from England I saw the UUP as the best representation of my Conservative views in a NI context and my UUP membership as a tangible demonstration of my personal commitment to keeping NI in the UK and out of the clutches of the Irish Republic. The electoral decline of the UUP in recent years turned a tangible demonstration into a symbolic one but I hope that this proposed alliance creates a successful unified Conservative and Unionist presence in NI.

[Bob Wilson]

Full Daily Telegraph article and quotes from Cameron, Lord Trimble and Sir Reg Empey at NI Tory website:
www.conservativesni.org
BTW Iain Dale spoke very well in support of the idea on BBC Radio Ulster

[Comstock]

Good news, hopefully the SDLP will go for closer ties with Labour too.

Mind you Sylia Hermon votes with Labour at the moment doesn't she?

[Man in a Shed]

Its time that the Conservative party properly understood home national nationalism, as opposed to the separatist nationalism of PC and the SNP ( and at times Scots Lib Dems ).

Why not 4 branches of a federal Conservative party ? And at last tap into the decency inherent in English identity as well as the pride of the Scots, Welsh and Irish.

[Man in a Shed]

Comstock - aren't the SDLP considering Fianna Fáil as a link ?

Labour has long been committed in private to a united Ireland.

[Ken Stevens]

Man in a Shed:
"It's time that the Conservative party properly understood home national nationalism, as opposed to the separatist nationalism of PC and the SNP...
...at last tap into the decency inherent in English identity.."

As per English Democrats, you mean?

Ignore England and destroy the Union
or properly acknowledge England and save the Union!

[Comstock]

I don't know, Man in a Shed. TBH NI politics is my weakest spot. I do know SDLP are nationalists (albeit more moderate than SF) so a merger with UK Labour could be tricky.

[Sally Roberts]

I welcome this initiative! The UUP and the Conservatives have so much in common and Conservatives in Northern Ireland will at long last feel they are properly represented.

[michael mcgough]

Irish papers are reporting dissent between Sinn Feinn and DUP.Interesting letter in Indie re Sarkozy meetin NI Sinn Feinners such as Adams rather than southerners.Are darker forces at play?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/why-
did-adams-meet-sarkozy-1439468.html

[Red Hand]

It is heartening to see David Cameron following the example of Enoch Powell and embracing Ulster Unionism. No surrender!

[Michael McGowan]

Remarkable. However, what's the point? The UUP lost most of its support to the DUP when it became obvious that Trimble had been stitched up by Blair and the rest of the British establishment under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement; and that the whole process was built around appeasing extremists, especially hardline Republicans. None of this will change under Cameron.

In any case, Northern Ireland politics is all about extracting as much UK taxpayers' cash as possible and then squabbling about how the spoils get shared. The UUP is no more a small government party than Gerry Adams is a Quaker...which is why Sylvia Hermon votes with Labour.

[RichardJ]

"As per English Democrats, you mean?"

Who?

[Andrew Smolilo]

Well done Owen Paterson! This means that the Conservatives are the only truly national party in the UK that is representative of everyone.

[Comstock]

I think you need to wait and see what exactly is proposed, Michael.

It could be owt from just informally taking the party whip to a full merger and adoption of the Conservative name and manifesto.

[YourNameHere]

There'll be some cultural attitudes to overcome. When I joined the Ulster Unionists in 1997, I went along to branch meeting in an Orange Hall and was rather amused that they had their own branch "chaplain" who'd conduct prayers before the meeting started.

This wasn't really for me, but change was in the air, and Trimble proved himself to be one of the most progressive politicians of his generation.

I remember helping out at a polling station and having do to the "telling" with someone from the DUP sitting beside me (he's now an Assembly member). He had a huge bible and warned me that the local MP (Ian Paisley) was a prophet from God, and failure to appreciate that would be catastrophic for me.

I do agree with earlier posters. The name would need to change to Conservative & Unionist in NI.... and the Ulster Unionists should cease to exist in it's current form. Only that is proper integration. That might be the problem though.

Does Herman actually take the Labour whip? She's never voted with the Tories, right?

[Jake]

"Northern Ireland politics is all about extracting as much UK taxpayers' cash as possible "

a slight innacuracy there - it might be called "UK cash" but the money comes effectively from one country and one country only and thats England.
If you think Wales and Scotland are contributing to the northern Irish economy you are dreaming.

Now if only Mr Cameron could bring himself to afford the same the same concern for the English as he displays for Northern Ireland , Wales and Scotland including the approval their national assemblies and self government -----------

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Good news, although I suspect Lady Hermon would leave and join the Labour Party.

Richard, you claim that many Tory MPs share Iris Robinsons views. They don't and you you know it.

The DUP is a nasty, bitter party led by a grumpy old man who has much in common with Fred Phelps!

[Unionist]

Reading some of the earlier comments I think that it needs to be made clear that Iris Robinson is an MP for the DUP not the UUP. The UUP is a moderate centre right party; it has of course been affected by the divisive history of Northern Ireland but it has remained at heart a tolerant party that by forging greater links with the Conservative Party is attempting to further move away from divisive sectarian and discriminatory politics. This is a move that should be welcomed by everyone in Northern Ireland as it will help to further normalise politics here and will give the people of Northern Ireland a voice on a national level. Equally it will give the Conservative Party the catalyst it needs to break into politics in Northern Ireland thus further solidifying its position as the party of the union. This move can only be welcomed.

[Ulster Tory]

Interesting turn of events. Very interesting. I'd be strongly against us not putting candidates up, and simply having UUP MPs taking our whip. However, I'd be for the UUP merging into our party, and candidates standing for election as Conservative and Unionist Party.

"Donaldson, Weir and Foster wouldn't last 10 minutes in Cameron's Conservative Party. They are old style bigots, and pretty nasty stuff. They wouldn't be on the candidates list."

Disagree about Donaldson - one of the DUP MLAs I have time for along with Nigel Dodds. If we could poach those two, along with the UUP we could probably overtake the DUp who are too full of people like Paisley Junior, The Robinsons, and Gregory Campbell.

UUP are currently suffering from the same thing that afflicted us before Project Cameron - Too old, rich and too out of touch. However, there are some (relatively) young stars like Basil McCrea. Despite that, for every one of him, there are about 10 David Burnsides.

Hopefully, Cameron will be able to help transform the UUP from a party with little Charisma into, well, a dynamic party like us.

P.S. I'm quite encouraged by Cameron's foresight to save the Union.

[RichardJ]

"Comstock - aren't the SDLP considering Fianna Fáil as a link"

Aren't Fianna Fail a centre-right party?

[I Albion]

Cameron has been quoted as saying"I dont want to be just the Prime-minister of England"lets hope this move stops him from being inflicted on the English.

[Dave McEwan Hill]

You could arrange a merger with the remnants of the IRA - the Conservative Republican Army Party (CRAP).
The only party which is relatively unsoiled in Ulster is the SDLP but its natural ally is the Labour Party.
NI spells danger in political terms.
In my opinion the Conservative Party should have concentrated on building up the actual Conservative Party in NI and then recruiting, on strenuous conditions, the more reasonable members away from the Ulster Unionists (who still have a awful lot of difficult questions to answer about a lot of events over the last forty years and who remain pariahs to a sizeable section of NI's population).

[Watcher]

The SDLP-Fianna Fail merger is off. It's right that Sylvia Hermon voted with Labour on 42 days but the SDLP (Labour's sister party) voted against. Not sure where that leaves us...

[Comstock]

COMMENT OVERRIDDEN - FOUL LANGUAGE

[John Wilkin]

Brian @ 0927
"This should have been done years ago. As for the DUP, no moderate Ulsterman votes DUP."

It should never have been undone - Ted Heath should never have severed the link. Now though the DUP is the largest party in Northern Ireland and the only game in town on the Unionist side, which suggests either that some moderate Ulstermen do vote for them.

Some people on this side of the water like to portray the DUP and the shinners as opposite sides of the same coin. This is not the case. Ian Paisley may have his faults, but he was always one of the first to condemn any crime committed by the protestant paramilitaries. Adams and McGuinness on the other hand still use the term "armed struggle" to refer to IRA atrocities

[Patrick Harris]

First of all it is not yet a "done deal" as the UUP will debate the proposals at their annual conference, the Tories have many enemies within the UUP (the ones with long memories) and we shall have to wait and see.
Once again, from the English perspective, it is pandering to saving the "union" at any cost, as long as that cost is borne by the English electorate who will not be consulted, as with Scottish and Welsh devolution, when will you lot awaken to the fact that you are the English party and nothing but the English party..

[elvis parker]

Perhaps I can keep the conversation focused David Cameron has said this morning:
"We stand in all parts of UK, only party that does. We want to explore with UUP more than joint candidates and working together, I'm much more ambitious. We want to establish a new political force that is both Conservative and Unionist. Lets get beyond old politics of constitution and orange/green. Lets have a national party that can stand up for people on all issues. People who have not been involved in politics in NI before should be able to stand up and say yes I want to join in"

[Ulster Tory]

Been looking around for general reaction to this news. No reaction yet on the DUP, Sinn Fein or SDLP website.

Alliance Party reaction: http://www.allianceparty.org/news/003897/uup__tory_plan_is_a_desperate_move_from_a_failing_party.html

General NI reaction can be found here: http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/ulster-unionist-and-conservatives/

[Man in a Shed]

Ken Stevens - Perhaps very similar to the English Democrats. But I think there is a great opportunity here. Home nationalism ( why is the term home countries never used any more ? )

Civic, patriotic home nationalism tying the United Kingdom together. ( If those reading this don't think this will work then they must logically commit to reverse devolution ).

[Ken Stevens]

Man in a Shed

"they must logically commit to reverse devolution "

Even better, albeit a vanishingly remote possibility. But even then, it would not affect devolution in Northern Ireland, given its somewhat different rationale and circumstances.

As regards a standard adverse kneejerk reaction to my earlier remark about English Democrats, I am always bemused that Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland devolution can be discussed rationally on this site (including by separatists) but the merest mention of likewise for England draws out some folks' spiteful side.

I'm a subscriber to ED who is in other respects an instinctive tory and would become a proper Tory if only the party would embrace full democratic parity for England. I subscribe also to this site in perhaps forlorn hope that this might come about in the fullness of time.

[Dale]

"Good news, although I suspect Lady Hermon would leave and join the Labour Party."

I didn't think you supported the union. The one time a ead our deserted blog you made it clear you supported a united ireland.

[Dale]

read your*

[Disgusted]

Dear Editor:

Please delete the post by
Casino Royale | July 24, 2008 at 12:26

The acronym of the suggested name of the party is an obscene word which is offensive to women, and has no place on this site (maybe on Guido Fawkes, but not here).

[Sally Roberts]

I don't know if anyone in the Conservative Leadership has spotted the slight "fly in the ointment" which would affect any future plans for grouping in the European Parliament? That is that we would have to rule out the Conservative delegation joining the UEN after 09 which contains not only Polands Law & Justice party but also Fianna Fail long time adversaries of the UUP!!

[Dale]

"I don't know if anyone in the Conservative Leadership has spotted the slight "fly in the ointment" which would affect any future plans for grouping in the European Parliament? That is that we would have to rule out the Conservative delegation joining the UEN after 09 which contains not only Polands Law & Justice party but also Fianna Fail long time adversaries of the UUP!!"

Two questions:

1. Why would that stop us?
2. Was joining the UEN ever even being considered?

[Cleethorpes Rock]

I don't know how far or deep this merger is going to go, but do you think the Ulster Tories/Unioinists might seek permission to be exempt from using the slogan "Vote Blue, Go Green" ?!

[Sally Roberts]

Dale, it would certainly rule out the option of joining the UEN if that were ever to be considered simply because you could not have two groups diametrically opposed to one another in the same grouping - it would be like having Conservative and Labour in the same group!
As to WHETHER joining the UEN has been considered - well only the Leadership can answer that for sure, but I am certain that every avenue is being explored.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Dale (or is it "Scott"?), I am no fan of NI (I think it would be better off as the 53rd state of the US), but not really a Nationalist. The irony is that most people in the Republic are horrified at the prospect of NI joining them (economically it's a basket case with heavy reliance on the State - that means English tax-payer and it's about 30 years out of date on social attitudes - as others have noted).

Naturally, if I had to live there I'd vote Conservative (or UUP in the absence of a Conservative candidate).

[Deputy Editor]

I've dealt with the comment, thanks.

[Dale]

"it would be like having Conservative and Labour in the same group!"

Or Conservative and UUP, as is what currently happens.

"Dale (or is it "Scott"?), I am no fan of NI (I think it would be better off as the 53rd state of the US),"

LMFAO, where the hell did 'scott' come from? I don't ever recall reading any comments on conhome by anyone called scott. If you wanted to blurt out a random name, you could have atleast chosen a more common one.

Out of interest, what would be the 51st and 52nd states?

[Sally Roberts]

Thank you Sam!

[Sally Roberts]

I think the 51st State is Alaska, isn't it?

Justin you are quite right that the North of Ireland is heavily reliant on Government subsidy as a result of the economic damage done by years of "The Troubles" but I would think it is actually not that bad a place to live! I visited the North Antrim coast back in March - the weather was terrible but it was the most beautiful place and in many ways life there is a lot less stressful than for us Londoners!

[Dale]

"economically it's a basket case with heavy reliance on the State"

That sentence could just as easily be about tottenham or even you. You could be described as a basket case with a heavy reliance on the state, should you therefore lose your citizenship?

[Dale]

"I think the 51st State is Alaska, isn't it?"

No dear, alaska was the 49th state admitted to the union, in 1959. Followed 9 months later by hawaii which was the 50th and thus far, last state admitted.

[Sally Roberts]

"I think the 51st State is Alaska, isn't it?"

No dear, alaska was the 49th state admitted to the union, in 1959. Followed 9 months later by hawaii which was the 50th and thus far, last state admitted."

My mistake, Thanks Sweetiepops! ;-)

[Dale]

Your welcome.

[RichardJ]

"As to WHETHER joining the UEN has been considered - well only the Leadership can answer that for sure, but I am certain that every avenue is being explored."

Scary coincidence, I was just wondering today why we haven't considered joining them. Ther is another Eurosceptic grouping but UKIP are the main party so wouldn't look good if we joined that one.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

'You could be described as a basket case with a heavy reliance on the state, should you therefore lose your citizenship?'

WTF? Please remove this bizarre comment.

[Sally Roberts]

Justin, he's just being silly - ignore him!

[Ulster Tory]

RE: Justin @ 14:50

"Dale (or is it "Scott"?), I am no fan of NI (I think it would be better off as the 53rd state of the US), but not really a Nationalist. The irony is that most people in the Republic are horrified at the prospect of NI joining them (economically it's a basket case with heavy reliance on the State - that means English tax-payer and it's about 30 years out of date on social attitudes - as others have noted)."

Funnily enough, most countries aren't huge economies after 40 years of civil war...

Not really out of date on social attitudes - you just get the odd Iris Robinson.

Just out of interest, have you ever been in NI? And if so, when was the last time you visited?

[Neil Wilson]

Yournamehere - you would be filled with hate, if you had been through some of what those people have.

I'm very impressed with this whole turn of events.

Medium term, it could offer Northern Ireland the chance it needs to break into a more mainland way of thinking, economically. This would help secure the Union as a friend who begs for money is often a pest. It could also be the saving grace of the UUP.

What form this alliance will take, be it a merger or simply the UUP having our whip, remains to be seen.

As a proud Ulsterman, I'm very excited.

[Neil Wilson]

'I am no fan of NI (I think it would be better off as the 53rd state of the US), but not really a Nationalist. The irony is that most people in the Republic are horrified at the prospect of NI joining them'

Good

'(economically it's a basket case with heavy reliance on the State - that means English tax-payer and it's about 30 years out of date on social attitudes - as others have noted).'

A population of 1.7 million and a terrorist campaign that pretty much wiped out any investment, the infrastructure of the economy and caused massive outwards migration of the most talented people, but hey, let's put Thatcherism before recongnising who is and isn't our countryman eh?

[John Moss]

This will help transform NI politics into a more traditional battle between socialist and liberal ideas.

Sinn Fein is almost communist and the DUP have always been the socialist protestants, which is why they hardly blinked whilst McGuinness destroyed the Grammar School regime. The UUP were always the more liberal Protestants - witness their acceptance of a Catholic as an MP, with little more than a few shrugged shoulders.

A full merger would be good, not least because it would place Labour in a difficult situation as they retain a constitutional bar on even accepting members from NI, those who apply being directed to the SDLP.

[Dale]

"WTF? Please remove this bizarre comment."

You are suggesting that tottenham doesn't have extremely high levels of unemployment and a disproportianate amount of the social security budget?

I don't want to get into your background, but as you yourself have previously publicised, you were raised by an unemployed mother, which I ofcourse, have no problem with, nor do I have a problem with tottenham having high uemployment. But I am not using lack of wealth as an argument for loss of citizenship, and you are. The northern irish have every right for there province to reain part of the united kingdom aslong as they want it to be.

[Votedave]

This is great news and long overdue. Any party aspiring to government ought to be fielding candidates in all parts of the UK.

[The Watchman]

I'd like to comment as a past member of both the Tory Party and the UUP.

There used to be a supermarket chain in Ulster called Stewarts which dominated the grocery market. Over a decade ago Tesco bought it from Associated British Foods, rebranded it and became NI's largest supermarket overnight. But politics is different. A party that either takes its orders from London, or is perceived to do so, would bomb (if you excuse the pun). I think there is no prospect of the UUP decommissioning itself and turning itself into a Tory branch, because it is actually a very conservative organisation. A link-up, a la CDU-CSU, would suit it better.

Another point about Iris Robinson. Northern Ireland society is certainly more socially liberal today than it was in the past. However, the process of secularisation is far stronger on the Catholic side than the Protestant one. Traditional socially conservative opinions, the product of evangelical Protestantism, remain strong in rural and small town Ulster, the kind of places where the UUP will need to take votes and seats away from the DUP if it is to make any electoral headway.

Many people in those places may feel that Mrs Robinson made a fool of herself through her ill-judged comments. But the same people may also be quite ill at ease with the secular and post-Christian tide affecting public life.

The UUP is going to need the freedom to formulate its own distinct policies to reflect the unique social climate in its own back yard. If it was to try to reinvent itself as a socially liberal Tory alternative to the "nasty" "bigoted" DUP, it will come unstuck very quickly indeed.

[Graeme Archer]

@Dale @17.50: hear, hear!

Justin, writing off Ulster because it currently enjoys a high level of state dependency would be a bizarre comment from someone in the Home Counties. Coming from a committed Tory in Tottenham, whose heart is usually in the right place, it's ridiculous.

Elsewhere today I had a little bittersweet moan about the impact of sectarianism on Scottish culture. I might have done better describing the impact of metropolitanism on our view of Ulster! It's British, Justin, in case you hadn't noticed, as British as you and I.

I remain overjoyed about today's announcement, especially and more so given the posted reactions here from Ulster Tories (not least 'Ulster Tory'!).

[overthere]

The Conservatives and the UUP are pretty much natural allies. I can't believe that anyone could see the Conservatives and the DUP in the same light. The DUP and UKIP would be more like it. As for all this talk of the 'best brains' of unionism having gone from the UUP to the DUP, aren't we forgetting that these people left the UUP because it was prepared to reach an accommodation with nationaism? They are hardly the sort of people the Conservative Party would want to be associated with.

[Comstock]

Well I think my comment @ 12.17 about the name was pretty obviously a joke, but I'm sorry if it offended anyone.

The serious part of the comment was that Cameron might be willing to compromise at "Conservative and Ulster Unionist" for a name but should go no further. It has to be clear this is a new organisation and not just a continuated of the UUP

[Comstock]

continuation of the UUP that should read

[The Watchman]

Actually, John Moss, the DUP has strongly opposed destruction of the grammar schools. Its former Education spokesman Sammy Wilson taught Economics at a grammar school in Belfast.

My impression of the DUP is that they would fit quite easily into the US Republican Party in South Carolina or Tennessee (etc.) as social and patriotic conservatives first and foremost. Some months ago someone polled members of the NI Assembly about who they would vote for if they were US citizens. The Sinn Feiners went for Obama, SDLP for Obama and Clinton, whilst the unionists went overwhelmingly for McCain.

[overthere]

The Watchman, Remind me of the name of the university where Ian Paisley took his doctorate. It's not in South Carolina by any chance is it?

[Neil Wilson]

To expand on my comments above;

Some people in this party have an unhealthy knack of looking at everything from the point of view of cutting costs and stopping subsidies.

This move recognises the price paid by the Northern Irish for their refusal to be anything else but British and is going to, hopefully, reward it with the politics it deserves, as an integral part of the United Kingdom.

[Comstock]

What is the UUP's position on homosexuality, just out of interest.

There was a row about working with 'Law and Justice' from Poland, but this is a much closer union of parties.

[overthere]

Comstock, I don't think the UUP has a "position on homosexuality". Why would it? Does any party bar the DUP have a "position on homosexuality". You may as well ask what the UUP's position is on weather.

"Law and Justice"? When did Poland join the UK?

[YourNameHere]

Neil Wilson writes "Yournamehere - you would be filled with hate, if you had been through some of what those people have."

I spent 18 years in a small market town at the top end of North Antrim where I got to know what a bunch of complete loons the DUP are. I can give you some names if you need confirmation.

In contast to that, the Ulster Unionists I got to know when I joined the party were a decent bunch with their hearts in the right place.

[Comstock]

"Comstock, I don't think the UUP has a "position on homosexuality". Why would it?

Because, as you rightly point out, the DUP has one, and I wondered if the UUP was similar.

""Law and Justice"? When did Poland join the UK?"

A while ago the Tories were considering forming a new group in the Euro parliament but there was a major row when it was discovered one potential partner had a policy against homosexuality.

[overthere]

Comstock,

Thanks for the clarification.

Even if Law and Justice were acceptable, it would seem that finding enough allies to make a political group of its own is proving rather difficult.

[John Wilkin]

Sally Roberts @1359

I'm not sure you can say Fianna Fail and the UUP are long term adversaries, seeing as FF doesn't contest elections in Ulster and the UUP doesn't field candidates south of the border.

Seeing as you've chosen to bring Europe into the discussion though - it strikes me that the EPP, the self styled "engine of European integration" which we are hopefully leaving, is diametrically opposed to most Conservatives