John Major: "The threat to liberty is graver than terrorism"

Former Prime Minister Sir John Major has written for this morning's Times about the many ways in which he sees Labour assaulting Britain's fundamental liberties:

Complicity in rendition: "We now know that, despite repeated denials, our Government was complicit in rendition, or - to put it in plain terms - the transfer of suspects out of civilised jurisdiction to a place where they could be held without charge for a lengthy period.  Although the intention was presumably to garner information, such action is hardly in the spirit of the nation that gave the world Magna Carta, or the Parliament that gave it habeas corpus."

42 days: "The Government has introduced measures to protect against terrorism. These go beyond anything contemplated when Britain faced far more regular - and no less violent - assaults from the IRA. The justification of these has sometimes come close to scaremongering.  After terrorist attacks on London, Parliament doubled the time that suspects could be held without charge from 14 days to 28 days. Probably, that was justified. But soon Parliament will be asked to increase detention without charge to 42 days... There is no proof that an extended period of 42 days would have prevented past atrocities. There is no evidence it will prevent future atrocities. No example has yet been given of why the police need more than 28 days to frame a charge."

ID cards: "They were to be voluntary. Now it is clear that they will be compulsory. Yet the Government has admitted that such cards would not have stopped the London bombers. Nor will they cut illegal immigration, since asylum-seekers have been obliged to carry ID cards for nearly eight years. Nor will they have any real impact on benefits fraud, as this is typically caused by misrepresentation of financial resources rather than by identity."

Recording DNA: "Under present legislation, DNA can be retained permanently for even minor misdemeanours, such as being drunk. A total of more than four million samples are already on the UK database - far more than in any other country. This includes tens of thousands of children, and a disproportionate number of black men. If this is accepted, it will one day go farther. This cannot be right: for me, it is all uncomfortably authoritarian."

Comments

[Robert McIlveen]

John Major has perfected the art of being an ex-prime minister - he rarely opines publicly but when he does it is worth every word.

[Norm Brainer]

Good quote from Major.

If you don't do anything wrong, you've nothing to worry about..... just you don't decide what's wrong!

With the ID cards, if they contain all my biometrics, which I carry around everywhere, why do I have to carry the card?
As a constant reminder of the 'protection' the government are giving me?

[Alexander King]

I'm glad that John Major has perfected the art of being an ex-Prime Minister because he certainly never perfected the art of being a Prime Minister.

[Aurora Borealis]

John Major is absolutely right to highlight this! Immediately after the 1997 Election I remember someone telling me in no uncertain terms that they foresaw a Police State in this Country and sadly now their words are being proved right.

[Dave B]

On Question Time last night Douglas Hurd objected to 42 days as he thought it was 'long enough to ruin a man', which struck me as a very good argument.

[comstock]

Major never struck me as particularly concerned about liberty when he was PM!!

[Dontmakemelaugh]

"Wasn't Major the genius who "drove the Tory bus into a brick wall"? As a back seat driver he is still, in the main, useless, a EUphilliac and began the process of turning London into Londistan. Do us a favour, Major, you had your day and you made, though your enslavement of Britain into the EU, a right cock-up with the result that we finished with the song and dance man, Blair and the hunchback of Notre Dame (The bells, the bells. We all hear the bloody bells - the ones that toll for us.

Major P--- off! (push). Give it a rest.

[London Tory]

Why on earth did the BBC dredge up Douglas Hurd for Question Time last night? Good guy and all that, but 20 years past his sell by date. Any coincidence that he was put up against Labour's young and dynamic Davis Miliband ?[who was woeful, by the way].

The BBC never miss an opportunity to shaft us.

Can you imagine a Question Time that featured Michael Gove for us, and Roy Mason for Labour ?

[Tony Makara]

John Major is quite right on every point made. Does the Labour government think that a terrorist organization hasn't the intelligence and funding to produce fake ID cards? The idea that ID cards will protect us from terrorism is a nonsense, in fact fake ID cards would put us in even more danger, allowing unfettered access to prime terror targets.

[Buckinghamshire Tory]

John Major is as usual right.

I sort of miss the man.

[Ian Miller]

Hi,
Of this nation, no truer word was spoken than "It is easier to destroy than create." for in 10 short years this government has done nothing other than destroy our millenium old traditions of fairness and safety.

Unlistening and uncaring of public opinion it has been hell bent on doing so.

Its period in power has been utterly and unbelievably disastrous for our nation.

[Man in a Shed]

On Question time - Where as David Miliband went on about computer files (37 thousand of them ). What he failed to do was identify tasks that are time limited rather than resource limited.

John Major and Douglas Hurd exude that confidence about their opinions that comes from having a varied background and real life as well as government experience. Mr Miliband does not. You could see Miliband cringe as Hurd explained the responsibilities of a government minister.

Any justification for large periods of internment requires the following:

1) Itemisation of police activities that are time, not resource constrained.
2) A clear demonstration that the consequence of maintaining a suspects rights (ie leaving them at liberty ) will lead to the very high probability of a major incident involving massive loss of life in the very near future. ( Hard to pull off when your under police /MI5 surveillance I would have thought ).
3) Proof that this measure is needed for public protection - not to increase the likelihood of successful prosecution.
4) A clear appraisal of the negative impact of such measures in supporting the cause of the terrorists and fermenting unrest. ( Think what internment did for the IRA in the long term !)
5) A cost benefit analysis - perhaps the government would do better not killing so many people in our hospitals or on our roads.
6) Confirmation that the general public is not willing to run these risks in the name of freedom. (I remember descriptions of bombing of London's East End ('Deutschland Uber Alles' being sung by the pilots on their radio ) and my Grandfather having to throw himself to the ground 2-3 times each time he went to work latter on with the V1s). People wouldn't buckle then, and if asked I don't think they will now. This is really about politicians being afraid of losing their jobs.

[ross warren]

It was said of Major and I agree that " never in History has such a decent man been surrounded by so many shits". Regardless of the economic problems that developed on his watch Major was still a very good PM. Of course it is fair to blame him for losing to Blair after all he was the guy in charge of the "shits" (remember the Tory Sleaze allegations), but we should not forget that he almost single handed pulled out a fantastic victory against the trend and so put off Labour for a number of years. He is of course quite right when he says "The threat to liberty is graver than terrorism".
The very worst thing about new labour has been its insistence on throwing away the freedoms that generations of our finest died to protect. As it is we should show some respect to John and remember that he is on our side fundamentally. The tone of some of the comments prove to me that the European question is still the most toxic issue when it comes to Party unity. The people of this nation hate a divided party like nothing else. Lets not let the issue of Europe undermine the lead we currently have. Once the Party has settled on its policy for Europe then we all need to fall in behind the leader in the greater interest of the Party and the Nation. John was basically a good PM who could have been a great one if people could only have resisted sticking the knives in at every opportunity. In retrospect he has become something of a whipping boy but I would remind you all that the biggest single reason (other than being divided by Europe) we lost the first time to Blair was Headlines about Tory Sleaze and this is something we need to take on right now before it starts all over again.

[Iain]

As Dianne Abbot revealed last night on This Week, the Government's whips have stopped trying to make any case for 42 days with their MP's other than to save Gordon Brown from a damaging defeat, which by anybodies measure is a poor exchange for an 800 year old liberty.

[Gege]

Finally, we have a conservative who is bold enough to speak up for the human rights of ALL people.

[Edward]

"It was said of Major and I agree that " never in History has such a decent man been surrounded by so many shits". Regardless of the economic problems that developed on his watch Major was still a very good PM. Of course it is fair to blame him for losing to Blair after all he was the guy in charge of the "shits" (remember the Tory Sleaze allegations), but we should not forget that he almost single handed pulled out a fantastic victory against the trend and so put off Labour for a number of years. He is of course quite right when he says "The threat to liberty is graver than terrorism"."

Well said, Ross Warren. I am becoming increasingly disposed to Major actually!

[Iain]

ross warren, just to shine some light on the rose tinted hue you have posted.

Major as Chancellor enacted the most disastrous economic policy by putting us in the ERM, something that cost many people dear, and consequences of which the Conservative party is still trying to live down.

And yes Habeas Corpus is part of our liberty which Labour are damaging, but so is our Parliamentary democracy, it shouldn't be forgotten Major dealt some deadly blows to this when he signed us up to Maastricht.

[Dontmakemelaugh]

On Question Time last night Douglas Hurd objected to 42 days as he thought it was 'long enough to ruin a man', which struck me as a very good argument.

Posted by: Dave B | June 06, 2008 at 09:29

If the police had to keep someone in custody for the whole 42 days to be investigate suspected of terrorism he would not be Father Christmas.
There are cases where people are held in custody and eventually found not guilty by juries - why doesn't Hurd complain about that? Hurd stated that we should "maintain a balance". The police wanted 90 days and it was raised to 28 against opposition. 28 is just over a 1/4 - a balance would make it 45.. Ironically, those that state the sledgehammer of the 2004 Emergency Powers Act, (there is a drawback), should be used for extra detention, would add on another 30 days making a possible total of 58 days. When I went to school 58 was more than 42, but in these days of politicians making "technical" mistakes in adding up their expenses I can understand how they think that 58 is less that 45.
The young woman from "Liberty", also appearing on QT, and wanting a return to just 7 days detention was an absolute wanton fool.

[Alex Swanson]

The problem with Major was that - although his govt wasn't nearly as bad as this one - he himself didn't worry about treating the citizen with respect when he didn't feel like it. Witness the refusal to hold a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty. If he'd done that then his eurosceptic critics wouldn't have had a leg to stand on.

The whole attitude of his team (esp Ken Clarke) was always "We're in charge, we'll do what we like". The difference between that and the current mob is one of degree, not kind.

[Iain]

"wanting a return to just 7 days detention was an absolute wanton fool."

Why not for most other countries manage it..

USA 48 hours
Canada 24 hours
Ireland 7 days
NZ 48 hours
OZ 14 days
France 6 days
Italy 4 days
Denmark 3 days
Norway 3 days
Russia 5 days
Turkey 7 days

What makes our police so incompetent that they need 42 days?

With post charge interviewing there is not reason why we still need 28 days, and anyway I question if there was ever a need for 28 days, for I don't know about you but I have found I tend to fill the time I have been given in which to do a task.

[passing leftie]

Man in a Shed said:

John Major and Douglas Hurd exude that confidence about their opinions that comes from having a varied background and real life as well as government experience. Mr Miliband does not. You could see Miliband cringe as Hurd explained the responsibilities of a government minister.

Oh, the irony of criticising Miliband for this when your leader is David Cameron!

ID cards are a bad idea. Keeping DNA from innocent people is a bad idea. Detaining people for 42 days is a bad idea. The horrible thing is I think they are all popular ideas.

[London Tory]

Major is dead right on this one, and Widde-bore is dead wrong.

This is just another racket- recommended by the Stupid Police [the same 'professional experts' who shot the Brazilian], and endorsed by greedy luvvy lawyers, no doubt relishing the prospect of all those adversarial hearings debating extending detention [at £1500 an hour, of course].

It will take rather more than the combined intellects of Jacqui Smith and Sir Ian Blair before the British people give up rights they have enjoyed since 1215.

[Paul Oakley]

On rendition; 42 days and DNA collection, we will have to look to Parliament, now or in the future, for a solution. Alternatively, it is possible that the courts may come to the rescue albeit through the blimmin Human Rights Act.

As individuals however, we can easily throw a spanner in the works as far as ID cards are concerned. The creation of the ID database itself will be an immense task, even with public cooperation. We as a party will not of course advocate public obstruction amounting to a breach of any aspect of the criminal law. However, delay in compliance with the compulsions of the Act could mean that it will never be implemented. It's only 2 years until the election after all.

If you feel like getting started on your personal go-slow, please take a few minutes to write to your GP to opt out of the NHS database. Some good advice and a draft letter can be found here

[David Cooper]

Let's not forget, by way of comparison, that the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act was enacted with the avowed intention of making it easier to investigate and prevent terrorism, and not to enable the Municipal Gestapo to act as they have done recently in relation to "bin crime" and other such matters. Should we find the detention limit increased to 42 days, how long before Douglas Hurd's point about ruining a life is illustrated via someone held in custody without any objectively justifiable terrorism issues behind the detention at all?

[ross warren]

Iain Just a little reminder of just one thing John Major did for real people suffering real problems. It was John Major who brought DLA in for disabled people and carers allowance for those who care for them. Thus in one stroke rescuing thousands of deserving people from poverty and injected cash into the economy at the bottom. Just maybe he was to well meaning but he did more for that Group than the current administration has despite being the so say party of social justice,without making a big song and dance about it. In comparison with the current administration John's got on with sensible social reforms.
The bottom line is he was and is a conservative and we should respect him for that at the very least.

[Nigel Rathbone]

John Major and Douglas Hurd exude that confidence about their opinions that comes from having a varied background and real life as well as government experience. Mr Miliband does not.

What is wrong with you people? Are you being deliberately dense? Can you not SEE how ridiculous such statements are in the light of the inexperienced current leadership of your party?

Miliband is (a) older than Cameron, (b) has been a minister for over 6 years, (c) has been in the cabinet for 3, and (d) he now holds one of the "Great Offices of State".

I'd say that gives him an all-round edge over Cameron in the "experience" stakes.

Experience isn't everything, I don't say that. But as you congratulate John Major on his wise pronouncements as an elder statesman, ponder this:

Major was the most inexperienced person to come to the premiership in living memory. Until Blair. Very probably that mantle will pass to David Cameron in the fullness of time.

So it ill behoves you lot to pontificate about "life experience". If you valued it that much you'd have elected David Davis when you had the chance.

[Votedave]

"Can you not SEE how ridiculous such statements are in the light of the inexperienced current leadership of your party?"

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown had no ministerial experience whatsover in April 1997. Blair was 26 when the last Labour government was ousted, and it was another four years before he became an MP.

[Nigel Rathbone]

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown had no ministerial experience whatsover in April 1997.

Yes, I know that. You clearly haven't read the whole of my post, as I make reference to Blair's inexperience in it.

I could mention however that Blair had at least been in parliament for 11 years and served much of that time in the shadow cabinet prior to becoming leader. By contrast Cameron was in the shadow cabinet for less than 6 months, the Commons barely 4 years (which perhaps explains why he seems so at sea with the procedures there - he doesn't seem to know sometimes that he's supposed to address his questions through the Speaker).

Anyway, that's all irrelevant to my central point - you can't denigrate David Miliband for lack of life (and political) experience when your own leader has far less.

[London Tory]

@Nigel Rathbone

Take some time out to read David Miliband's CV. He has never had a real job. He has admitted to friends that his complete lack of a track record in the private sector will be a handicap to him. He has trodden a familiar career path. University- Think Tank- Government Special Adviser- Parachuted to Safe Seat [South Shields of all places]- Junior Minister- Cabinet Minister. He has never so much as had a Saturday job flipping the burgers in Wimpey. No need, he had a rich Marxist father.

I am also reliably informed that he is not the most popular constituency MP, as he sometimes has 'difficulty' understanding and empathising with his working class constituents.

If Miliband has 'experience', all the more reason why David Cameron is so much more popular than him.

[Saltmaker]

ID cards are a bad idea. Keeping DNA from innocent people is a bad idea. Detaining people for 42 days is a bad idea. The horrible thing is I think they are all popular ideas.

Passing Leftie, although I personally don't know anyone who thinks these are good ideas, the opinion polls agree with you and so must I. Perhaps the pollsters would get a different response if they asked for DNA along with their survey.

I’d love to know which demographic:

1. has got £100 to spend on a worthless gimmick,

2. imagines that 42 days is something that could only happen to somebody else (who would obviously be guilty),

3. doesn’t fear the day when their DNA and a flawed computer system put them (or their close blood relatives) at the scene of a crime,

4. imagines that our DNA (and everything it reveals about bloodstock, family tree, genetic flaws and susceptibilities, etc) will be held so securely that it will never be abused or fall into the wrong hands.

Time and again governments of all colours have been near incompetent on big issues. With what’s at stake, I do not understand how anybody can give this government (and all governments future unknown) this amount of power.

[Ian Miller]

"42 days of incarceration is long enough to ruin a man". (Mr Hurd in Question Time)
Even if he is proved innocent at the end who cares - In New Labour Think - the national interest is being served.

Yet we are told "one death is one death too many" and "speed kills" so in the national interest the whole driving population is inconvenienced by being speed camera'd every minute of the day.

Simply can't get my head round this typical glaring New Labour hypocrisy manifesting itself. Is the ruination of one man of no importance ?

[Peter Harrison]

Saltmaker - if you want to know which demographic thinks 42 days can only happen to someone else, take a look at dontmakemelaugh. He/she apparently thinks that "If the police had to keep someone in custody for the whole 42 days to be investigate suspected of terrorism he would not be Father Christmas" despite plenty of evidence to the contrary. Perhaps he/she has missed all the cases where people have spent years in prison when they were not guilty of any crime.

He/she is not alone. I've come across a lot of people who believe there is no smoke without fire, many of whom seem to believe that there is no such thing as a wrongful conviction. When you point out that the police fabricated evidence and confessions in some cases, they just assume that the police had evidence they couldn't use in court which proved guilt.

[David Lindsay]

Good old John Major. I always knew that he'd say something sensible eventually.

Actually, Major is a fascinating figure, and far more significant than his successor. He is also only a few years away from being a national treasure, whereas Blair (like Thatcher) is rightly destined to be hated to, and well beyond, the grave.

On the 42 days question, the Police are unsurprisingly staring to come out against the idea of keeping people in their stations' holding cells for six-week stretches.

And shame on the DUP if, in return for some financial deal in Northern Ireland, it saves this measure, never even employed in Great Britain at the height of the IRA bombing campaign, and frighteningly reminiscent of the best recruiting tool that the IRA ever had.

[Derek Bennett]

John Major was responsible for losing this once lifelong Concervative voter. He signed the Maastricht Treaty which gave the EU massive powers over us and helped to create the mess we are now in.

It is the EU that wants a common EU-wide ID card and our laws are having to be adapted to fit in with EU laws. What right does he have to whinge about the loss of our freedoms when he is responsble for the very problem he is moaning about - silly man.

[Derek Bennett]

John Major was responsible for losing this once lifelong Concervative voter. He signed the Maastricht Treaty which gave the EU massive powers over us and helped to create the mess we are now in.

It is the EU that wants a common EU-wide ID card and our laws are having to be adapted to fit in with EU laws. What right does he have to whinge about the loss of our freedoms when he is responsble for the very problem he is moaning about - silly man.

[stephen hoffman]

John Major was right on this , but remember it was under his premiership islamism rose especially in tower hamlets in London , thanks to an immigratio policy which let islamic extremists such as Abu Hamza an Yusuf Al Quawadari in - read the Islamist by Ed Hussain and you will see the seeds of Islamic extremism were sown in the early 90s.

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