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Those poor dear fans whose large screen didn't work. How horribly unfair on them, I completely understand why they'd want to atack police officers....


I have several friends in the City Centre and they didn't dare step out of their front doors yesterday evening.

There is no excuse for this criminality. Those convicted must receive appropriate sentencing. After this incident major cities should think again about setting up huge screens which will encourage large numbers to congregate in one area. It is sad to see that the police are left to defend themselves with little more than a clump of wood. In incidents such as these the use of tear gas and water cannon should be an option.

It's sad but you can't help but think that if these were Premiership or English national team "fans", everyone would be saying what an absolute disgrace they were and how typical it is of them to cause trouble whilst under the influence of alcohol. I seem to recall the European Championships of 2000 as being particularly bad. As it was, much of the focus this morning was placing the blame on the police who were supposed attacking the "passionate tartan army". The video evidence released by Greater Manchester Police show that this was categorically not the case. Whilst it was arguably unwise for the city council to be encouraging so many fans to come for the day, their behaviour, seemingly just because their TV was broken, was disgraceful and one can only hope that as many of the offenders as possible are able to be harshly dealt with by the relevant authorities.

Just been through Piccadilly Gardens (where the screen was), the clean-up is still going on, it absolutely stinks...

Send them to guantanamo...

A few years of detention without trial ought to take the fight out of them.

The video is truly sickening. The policeman did well to get away with just a broken arm.

This is what happens when socialists run a country (Scotland) for an extended period of time - boozed up benefit claimants have no outlet bar alcohol and violence.

And ruin a sporting spectable for the other decent 99.9% of Rangers fans.

Why should the general taxpayer's pocket suffer to pay for any of this? The football clubs should be held responsible for paying the policing and cleanup costs for their events; sort of on a "polluter pays" principle. It's not as if the world of football isn't awash with money given all the TV and sponsorship deals they seem to have.

Another reason to get rid of Scotland?

I agree with everything said above but UEFA and Manchester are also partly to blame:

1/ UEFA for booking the City of Manchester stadium. As modern as it is, it's too small for a European final.

2/ Manchester City Council for encouraging tickletless fans with the promise of big screens. All motivated by the belief that they'd sell lots of alcohol.

Unless the earlier reports, which were unambiguously to the effect that the Scottish Tories were in fact calling for an inquiry into police heavy-handedness, were completely unfounded, this would appear to be a belated attempt to limit the damage of an extremely ill-judged intervention that will have provided valuable ammunition for our opponents.

Does anyone know the sequence of events for certain?

It will be interesting to see if these thugs are condemned as vociferously as English fans would be.

They should be and Alex Salmond should already have publicly apologised to Manchester in particular and England generally for the behaviour of his countrymen (has he?). I wonder if this was the sort of party he wanted down in Manchester?

Salmond Calls For UEFA Party in Manchester

How strongly has Brown condemned this as well?

No doubt UEFA will ban Rangers from European Football for a period because of this. I just hope it does not put the Wembley Champions League final bid in doubt?

Why am I not surprised that this incident is being used by ConservativeHate commentators to push a narrow minded and bigoted anti-Scottish agenda and castigate Scotland and all Scots in general.

Oh, and John Leonard, perhaps England should apologise to Ireland for the English football fans' rioting and violence at Lansdowne Road in 1995. Did England apologise to France after hundreds of rampaging England fans attacked people of North African origin in Marseille in 1998? And wasn't it drunken, racist English football fans who have been sending death threats to Rio Ferdinand? I seem to remember Swedish referee Anders Frisk had to quit after racist English fans sent him death threats too. So, "Well known activist", perhaps this is a reason for the civilised world to "get rid of England" too.

The truth is you can't judge a people on the basis of the actions of a tiny minority of idiot football fans. So leave the bigotry and chippiness outside the door please.

Finally, "Big Jock Knew", as far as I know Scotland was run by the Conservatives from 1979 - 1997, then Labour from 1997 - 2007 (now the SNP). It seems for the last ten years Scotland and England were run by the same party, so perhaps you can enlighten us as to what you think you are talking about?

I am deeply dissapointed in the response to this issue. We are a political party not a supporters club. It is appropriate to allow the evidence to be seen and for the police to present their case before any rash conclusions are reached

We all better hope that United don't draw Rangers at any stage in next seasons champions league, or any seasons after that. A lot of these lads won't be happy at the way their city has been trashed and the thought of thousands of the red army going up to Glasgow with a grudge in their hearts is pretty frightening.

@WTF. Yes, very sophisticated moniker BTW.

'perhaps this is a reason for the civilised world to "get rid of England" too.'

'So leave the bigotry and chippiness outside the door please.'

Is that the same door that you just walked through with a rather large bag of chips?

Bigotry? Rangers? 1690 et al? Chanting sectarian hate? Watching Celtic fans on the BBC news writing tributes on the Irish tricolour?

Did you hear on the BBC yesterday the chirpy Rangers fanatic ranting on about the invasion of Manchester being akin to William Wallace and that the Scots were going to out drink the Russians?

2:0. Get over it.

@Tony Makara

Speaking as a Man City man (RIP) I would respectfully suggest that the red army lives in Slough.

" used by ConservativeHate commentators to push a narrow minded and bigoted anti-Scottish agenda and castigate Scotland and all Scots in general."

Perhaps its because the Scottish Conservative party leaders over reached themselves to initially demand an investigation into the Manchester police's action. Wouldn't Scots have taken umbrage at the English Conservative party erroneously demanding investigations into a Scottish police force? I would think so, but of course that won't happen for there is no English Conservative party, so anybody can take ill informed pops at us for there’s no one fighting our corner.

Englandism, watching the match yesterday from the safety of my living-room I found it bizarre that one of Scotland's top clubs was trying to win the UEFA cup on penalties from the kick-off. I can't help thinking that any of our English teams might have been a bit more ambitious.

There's two in the Champion's final so let's hope ;)

Just want to agree with the comments made by WTF and Afleitch.
As I pointed out earlier on PB.com, Wendy Alexander also lead on the issue of an enquiry linking the problems to alcohol consumption at Holyrood questions.
If I thought we could engage in a proper grown up debate about this problem without it descending into the usual suspects popping up to vent their anti Scottish rhetoric, it might be worth getting into a debate about a couple glaring inconsistencies which need to be addressed. But I doubt that can be achieved as so many previous threads have shown, it honestly feels like some people just visit this site to have a go at the Scots!

If I have understood things correctly, any fans who go on a hooligan blacklist in England are not automatically put on a similar one in Scotland. Surely that should be a national UK wide database because so many fans travel North and South of the border to support club teams? It would also mean the culprits of violence not necessarily getting punished by being banned from their home club.

I note with dismay that as usual it is to be assumed that the Scottish Conservative party has done something wrong in calling for and enquiry, of course, they just want to insult the English police instead of trying to prevent the rise of an ugly spectre which used to dominate Scotttish football back in the 80's (I remember it well, and spent a stint in my student days at Aberdeen A&E where I saw first hand the Aberdeen casuals at work).
But I suspect that alcohol was at the root of this violence, its many years ago since my other half took me to a Scottish cup final as a date and Rangers were playing that day too! But I do remember the strict no alcohol rules which saw people, and in particular, fan buses being stopped and searched.
I also remember how strict concert venues were as well, our friends once panicked at a U2 concert and dumped their booze because the police were searching bags. Zero tolerance of alcohol abounded and my mates were not bright enough to work out it would have been cheaper to dump the contents of a couple of coke or lemonade bottles....

I hope the culprits that disgraced their team, and their fellow supporters (who in their tens of thousands behaved well and enjoyed the wonderful hospitality of the people and city of Manchester) will be firmly dealt with.

I also hope that some on here can get this all into perspective, and realise that when over a hundred thousand extra people descend on a city for a party, there will be a clean up operation whether they are Scottish or not! Try visiting Edinburgh on New Years Eve.....

PS. For the ill informed, the Tartan Army follows our national team, not individual clubs.

I'm sick of this football hooliganism, its time to stamp it out of the British character once and for all. The police need to given the authority to thrash them without restraint. I must say, whenever I see one of these scumbags get his head caved in by a baton, a certain warmth passes through my body, How I'd love to see it more often.

"I note with dismay that as usual it is to be assumed that the Scottish Conservative party has done something wrong in calling for and enquiry"

No its the way they called for an enquiry in immediately assuming the fault lay with the Manchester police, not 'their' Rangers supporters.

C'mon. What's new? This news report appeared in The Times in 2005:

"A UNITED Nations report has labelled Scotland the most violent country in the developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted than in America. England and Wales recorded the second highest number of violent assaults while Northern Ireland recorded the fewest. . . "

'PS. For the ill informed, the Tartan Army follows our national team, not individual clubs.

Posted by: ChrisD | May 15, 2008 at 20:06'

Sums it up? Really,? National?

Chris Wyremski, while the police have to use a measured response the authorities have to be allowed to resort to gas or water cannons if they feel it necessary. A water cannon spraying them with some kind of treacle like and foul smelling substance would soon stop them in their tracks. As you say we are all sick of these cowardly yobs who can only hunt in packs, the liberal softly-softly response has been tried and does not work. public rioting should carry a severe sentence, perhaps even ten years in prison. The fact that these people were attacking property and ordinary people shows it was nothing to do with football, it was just pure criminality. I wonder if Holyrood is going to compensate those mancunians who suffered. One woman had her car entirely gutted by a mob who told her gleefully "We are Scots, this is what we do"

The simple answer is a big fine for the Rangers Club. Like £1M or 2M. Something that would reduce their chances for the following season and thus hurt the aggressive fans.

Tony Mankara, did Westminster compensate all the foreign nationals who lost out on the many occasions when English fans have gone on the rampage abroad?

Those were not Scottish fans - they were British. Didn't you see the flags.
These are the vanguard defending the union in Scotland. Makes it obvious why independence in inevitable. Many of them want to be English and they tend to behave like English football supporters.
The magnificent efforts of a threadbare Rangers squad motivated by the marvelous Walter Smith may well collapse as their season could disintegrate over the next fortnight as a result of this behaviour.
It is significant that one of the few places in Scotland where the BNP are able to operate is outside Ibrox stadium on a Saturday

David McEwan Hill

'Many of them want to be English'

Oh, dear. Scottish settlers. Ulster. No Surrender. The Boyne. 1690. It is old and it is beautiful and the colours they are fine. Some day I'll go back home to Ireland be it only on the 12th of July. Sweet William. King Billy.

The union of England and Scotland has diddly squat to do with Rangers or Celtic and, incidentally, nothing to do with the Conservative and Unionist Party.

There are some pretty wall paintings in Belfast should you wish to know more.

Time to rebuild Hadrian's Wall I think.

Englandism.com post is about the silliest I've seen.
Indeed the union has nothing to do with Rangers or Celtic.
Try telling that,however, to the hordes of Union Jack waving Rangers supporters who think it has.
The desperate and dangerous ploy to enlist Rangers FC in support of the Union was initiated by Margaret Thatcher who had no idea of the ramifications when she came up to cuddle up to Rangers. Many Rangers supporters deplore this and are infact nationalists in sentiment but were ourtraged tosee Rangers FC handing out Union flags at matches before the Scottish election. Some people have learned nothing no matter how long they live. The "Unionist" in the Conservative party's description in Scotland was adopted at the time of Ireland's movement to independence and look what an &rse Britain made of that.
I well remember English football supporters rioting around Hampden Park before and during a Scotland/England match and being escorted en masse the three miles to Glasgow's Central station by 150 Strathclyde Policemen. No person in Scotland thought this behaviour by louts and thugs in any way typified England or the English.
I'll bet you I know and understand The Northern Ireland situation a lot better than Englandism does. The average English person's ignorance and unconcern about the issues and events which shape this running sore is usually monumental - but like the appalling behaviour of some Rangers fans has little to do with sensible political debate.

'I'll bet you I know and understand The Northern Ireland situation a lot better than Englandism does.'

As my family were forced out of Ireland by Catholic marriage to a Protestant shortly after the Easter uprising and that the maternal side ran guns to the Fenians and the paternal to the Loyalists, then, I humbly suggest, you may not quite be right.

As you are entirely misguided about the 1690 'No Surrender' of the Red Hand of Glasgow Rangers.

And we went there with Cromwell in the first place but there's another story.

Shocking comments by the great ignorant masses on here.

Over 150,000 Rangers fans went to Manchester and 200 idiots fought with police.

The city wants to be ashamed of the way it treated folk by deliberately switching off the screen, leaving up to 40,000 people unable to see the biggest game of our lives. I luckily managed to find somewhere else and missed out on the trouble.

As for those talking about collective punishment, that's a lazy socialist idea as far as I'm concerned. Rioters should be punished to the full extent of the law, but you can't punish a business because some idiots decided to wear their colours whilst throwing bottles.

As for Rangers fans being nationalists in sentiment - I've certainly never met any, despite being a season ticket holder for the best part of this decade and following the whole team over Europe. Salmond was widely booed every time he was spotted in Manchester.

Rangers FC is the great bastion of Britishness in Scotland and is truly an institution. As a Times hack said last year - we are the "Quintessential British Club". Fans come from all over the UK, not just Scotland.

More British than some of the English on here it seems.

Our local SNP councillor is a Rangers season ticket supporter and many of the office bearers of the SNP in this part of the world are Rangers supporters. I have something in common with Englandism. My great, great gran - a protestant Reid from a big house in Antrim ran off with a Catholic horse boy called Campbell and they ended up in Elgin. So my family is half/half as they say in Scotland and I have relatives on both sides of the Ulster divide

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