In E!Sharp, the FT's Philip Stephens writes:
"Press [Cameron] hard on what precisely he means by refusing to let the matter rest and, to put it kindly, he blinks: it's too early to say, let's not speculate. Go on to ask how Europe ranks among his campaigning priorities and the answer is not very high at all. Perhaps 7th or 8th on the list, I have heard him say".
That may be wise politics but The Economist provides a useful reminder that Europe will be "huge" for the Tories once (hopefully) in government. Reviewing two recent books on Britain's relationship with the EU, The Economist writes:
"The book [by Sir Stephen Wall] makes clear two important things about today's EU.
First, it pervades almost every corner of public policy. New parliamentarians and ministers are often taken aback by how much of their work involves Brussels—and by how little they know of the EU's methods.
Second is the importance of heads of government in the European Council, now the club's dominant policymaking body. That puts its direction in the hands notably of Number Ten, the Elysée in Paris and the federal chancellery in Berlin—which is why direct personal involvement by national leaders counts more than ever."
Hat tip to Open Europe. Both of these articles were highlighted in their daily email.
Related link: This piece by Jim McConalogue explains why the EU is "huge" for Britain.
At last night's Bruges Group meeting Freddie Forsyth rubbished UKIP's new MP Bob Spink,told us all new PPCs were EUsceptic and that we must TRUST and vote Tory.He received a hard time.His fellow speaker(excellent speech) and BOO signatory Douglas Carswell will not face opposition from UKIP because he has signed up to BOO.By threatening sitting MPs and new PPCS from signing up to BOO Cameron has ensured trouble for himself,especially in the marginals.
Perhaps this is the price of a 'sponsored' front bench------ponces by any other name .
Posted by: UKIP marginal general | May 16, 2008 at 14:20
Go away UKIP. You were flattened on 1st May. People now understand that only a Tory vote will rid Britain of Labour.
Posted by: Alan S | May 16, 2008 at 14:23
But, Alan S, will a Tory vote rid Britain of the EU?
Posted by: Bazzer | May 16, 2008 at 15:04
Alan S | May 16, 14:23
"..only a Tory vote will rid Britain of Labour."
But if such a vote will not restore governance of our country to Westminster, does it really matter what party is supposedly in charge, beyond the shorter term aspect of the personal failings of the current EU regional administrators in Nos. 10, and 11 Downing Street and their subordinates?
EU rules etc will always inhibit deliverance of government policies. Without prospect of such deliverance, how can you expect to enthuse people with alternative policies on domestic issues?
Only a Tory vote will rid Britain of Labour, indeed. Now, someone, please tell me that a Tory vote will result in restoration of national government (leaving aside for the moment whether "national" relates to UK or England!)
Posted by: Ken Stevens | May 16, 2008 at 15:04
Alan
That was an excellent demonstration of a democratic, listening approach.
The eu is subverting GB and Cameron will have to stem the tide.
BOO is a perfectly acceptable, and in my view desirable, position for any Conservative candidate.
How can anybody who believes in Conservatism find it acceptable to sub-contract our governance to the eu?
Posted by: John Broughton | May 16, 2008 at 15:10
I can't imagine the Conservative cabinet would claim that Europe was anything other than a major issue. But we shouldn't talk about it too much for a reason: the public just don't care about it. Opinion poll after opinion poll show it; and frankly if it was the top issue people cared about, we'd have won in 2001.
Posted by: Michael Rutherford | May 16, 2008 at 15:22
Clearly too explosive an issue for the Tories to make a main campaign theme.
However, public opinion is that the EU is too powerful and that we should have a referendum on the 'constitution'.
Labour Lisbon opt-outs will be challenged and erorded. Then we will have the unions will have all their powers back via the back door.
It cannot be ignored forever.
Posted by: Roger | May 16, 2008 at 15:27
"How can anybody who believes in Conservatism find it acceptable to sub-contract our governance to the eu?"
Quite easily; just ask Margaret Thatcher.
Posted by: David | May 16, 2008 at 16:16
To all those who argue UKIP.
Voting Conservative is the only realistic practical step in the right direction. Anything else is intellectual self indulgence.
I was a Labour Party member for over 25 years. People like Peter Shaw, Douglas Jay and latterly Bryan Gould were four square about this. Gosh that dates me, but maybe Frank Field is still there?
But now I put my faith in the Conservatives as the best hope to both keep our country united and defend our sovereignty and democracy. A few percent one way or another on the PSBR, or how schools are funded are really quite trivial issues in comparison.
Posted by: Mark edinburgh | May 16, 2008 at 16:20
You may be right, Mark but the Conservative party's track record on this issue is one of avoidance and there is no doubt if there was no UKIP the topic would be totally ignored by the Party. UKIP is a political Party not a pressure group as such and , therefore, it has to be countered in the polls.
AlanS ' point is corrrect in respect of the London Assembly but elsewhere UKIP gained Councillors and votes.
Posted by: jean shaw | May 16, 2008 at 16:47
Your post, editor, reveals that the Tories need a far more sophisticated understanding of Europe than is recognized either by many Shadow Cabinet members or national newspaper editors.
The interesting thing is how simplistic many people's understanding of the EU is.
The debate is far to complicated to say "out of Europe now". That would destroy many British companies' business plans for one thing.
It is also not widely understood how influential the UK actually is in Europe: basically nothing happens in the EU unless Britain, Germany and France all agree. The UK delegation is considered the most effective at getting Britain's best interest.
Posted by: Europhile | May 16, 2008 at 17:00
Go away UKIP. You were flattened on 1st May.
Indeed
But remember less than 20% of the electorate voted for Boris.If this is repeated by the far less charismatic Cameron you ain't gonna gain the power you all crave (above all else).
Perhaps Dave's attitude to BOO owes more to his sponsors than his intellect.
Posted by: michael mcgough | May 16, 2008 at 17:01
"The UK delegation is considered the most effective at getting Britain's best interest. "
Please do tell us about the effectiveness of UK's delegation getting its way on the EU Constitution, for I think you will find they failed to get their way on most of the points they objected to. In fact they objected to the EU Constitution, but guess what, we are still getting it!
Posted by: Iain | May 16, 2008 at 17:08
I don't believe we can take a risk on a party whose policy is to stay in the EU. That is not right for Britain.
This is by far the most important issue in politics today. It won't be dealt with overnight, but by making it very clear how important it is by voting for and supporting UKIP, we 'band of brothers' can do our bit.
Independence is the sine qua non of freedom, security and prosperity - and we have shown we can handle it. What's not to like?
Posted by: Henry Mayhew - 'kipper | May 16, 2008 at 17:14
Sorry i meant Peter Shore of course, so not a kinsman of Jean.
Jean, point taken but the past is the past. John Redwood argues that the Conservatives have changed, there is such a thing as learning from events. The Labour Party went through a (brief) period of avoidance before its 100% u-turn on the EU. Also I can understand why in the context of the Cold War and natural suspicions of the USA post Suez why people like Heath thought the way they did.
But it is the here and now that matters. Having watched on BBC Parliament the great efforts of many Conservative MPs in the Lisbon debates has convinced me that the party is at least worthy of the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by: Mark Edinburgh | May 16, 2008 at 17:16
"Having watched on BBC Parliament the great efforts of many Conservative MPs in the Lisbon debates has convinced me that the party is at least worthy of the benefit of the doubt."
Yes there were some good efforts, but this is undone by Cameron not abiding by his leadership election promise of getting out of the EPP. Its also worrying that the Conservatives seem to have no policy to redress the situation, for the only way to extract our selves from this EU nightmare is to pick it apart salami slice by salami slice, just as its been built. As such the Conservatives need to pick on one specific area of sovereignty to repatriate, then single mindedly get it back, and once that's done go for the next area. But the most important factor is to pick the right battle, once that has been won, a precedence for repatriating Sovereignty would have been established, other areas would be easier to repatriate from then on.
Posted by: Iain | May 16, 2008 at 17:29
"I don't believe we can take a risk on a party whose policy is to stay in the EU. That is not right for Britain."
I won't vote for any party that advocates leaving the EU, and would actively campaign against them, the Conservatives included.
Economically short-sighted nationalist reactionary ideals for leaving a large free trade zone are policies that belong with UKIP on the fringes. For people who are clever enough to actually use the EU's many advantages it massively increases their choice for jobs, business, leisure and standards of living, there just don't seem to be enough Brits intelligent enough or are incapable of seeing prospects beyond our shores, frankly if you don't adapt you die, and if you can't spot that you don't deserver to survive anyway.
Put it this way do you see the rise of China and India as a threat or an opportunity? The government in power over the next decade should be the latter.
Posted by: YMT | May 16, 2008 at 18:06
Economically short-sighted euro-nationalist reactionary ideals for staying with a restrictive trade zone are policies that belong with Conservatives on the fringes.
"Put it this way do you see the rise of China and India as a threat or an opportunity?"
An opportunity which we can grasp by being outside of the EU by trading globally with the rest of the world as we have successfully done for centuries.
Take off the Euro-blinkers for once and you'll see there's a world out there beyond the out-dated European Union.
Posted by: ukipwebmaster | May 16, 2008 at 18:16
"Yes there were some good efforts, but this is undone by Cameron not abiding by his leadership election promise of getting out of the EPP."
There are good practical reasons for remaining in the EPP until we have established the alternative grouping that we want. These include the funding arrangements for political parties within groups such as the EPP/ED; positions within committees within the Parliament; and so on.
Whilst we remain members of the EU we need to ensure that we continue to participate ... simply trying to obstruct the process is not going to work ... using the system to work to our advantage and to the advantage of the people we represent and hope to represent is the only option. To withdraw from EPP and lose our position in the Parliament at this time would be mistaken ...
Posted by: MEP candidate | May 16, 2008 at 18:29
I supect that a great many people who love Europe - like me - are appalled by many aspects of the EU and by what a number of governments - tory and Labour - have got this country into.
I fully support a free trading zone (but not a common currency) and I fully support a confederation of sovereign nation states (but not a federal union). But I object strongly to all those edicts that emanate from the EU that run counter to common sense and strangle the individuality out of us, while removing from Parliament far too many powers.
It is clear that things have really gone too far and I believe that a pragmatic way of dealing with what is clearly a problem for the conservatives would be to promise a referendum on staying in or coming out.
If there were to be proper debate throughout the country on the issues beforehand, I think it entirely right for the conservative government to commit itself to following the will of the people on this one major issue.
Posted by: David Belchamber | May 16, 2008 at 18:35
ukipwebmaster, I take it you'd trust the WTO to quickly satisfy any trade disputes you have with a country that decides you're out competing their own domestic production and places a tariff on your goods, or you could provide an example of the restrictive trade zone you talk about. Also you could point to another country, nation, block with anything approaching the size for ease of access for domestic employment for workers? And for centuries do you mean the trade between the various nations and colonies of the Empire? I'm pretty sure we don't still have an Empire? am I wrong? Or our those cotton mills up north still pumping out the valuable stuff.
From the Chinese Z Visa to the US work visa or the delicate nature of the Dubai Employment Visa the EU provides unfettered access for all EU citizens.
Posted by: YMT | May 16, 2008 at 18:37
When i read the comments of "MEP candidate" i know for sure i will not vote Conservative in the 2009 elections tothe EU Parliament. The country needs fewer federalist travellers like him and more Dan Hannan's.
My vote in the 2010 general election will be determined by the Conservatives position on Europe. If they commit to renegotiating our EU membership back towards one of trade i will vote them. But if the party of Masstricht merely say that they 'will not let matters rest' i would rather have the Tories in opposition again until they come to their senses.
Posted by: Freeborn John | May 16, 2008 at 19:08
" To withdraw from EPP and lose our position in the Parliament at this time would be mistaken ... "
You mean lose the pecking order at the EU's feeding trough, but I find it utterly disgraceful that Conservative MEP's continue to take the whip of the EPP following the expulsion of Daniel Hannan who seems to be the only honourable Conservative MEP. At least he fought the EU Presidents act of rewriting the EU parliaments rules to suit themselves, the other Conservative MEP's obviously thought their position at the EU feeding trough was more important than parliamentary integrity!
Posted by: Iain | May 16, 2008 at 19:35
"Also you could point to another country, nation, block with anything approaching the size for ease of access for domestic employment for workers?"
OZ! They are a country one third the size of our population yet seem able to exist as an independent state without having to sell out their sovereignty or disenfranchise their electorate from the democratic control of their country.
If only the British establishment could find a little of the backbone that the Australian establishment has! It just a matter of will, unfortunately there is precious little of that in the British state for capitulation seems to be the order of the day!
Posted by: Iain | May 16, 2008 at 19:41
The selection process that places EU-sceptic MEPs like Dan Hannan at the top of the list and exposes the federalist underbelly of EPP-supporting Tory MEPs means that there will be a much needed opportunity in 2009 to purge the ranks in Brussels of those that have been there too long for any good they have done. I for one certainly intend to take that opportunity to vote against the Conservative party.
Posted by: Outrider | May 16, 2008 at 19:47
Just taking UKIPs statements at face value. (Naive I know, but -) We have been lambasted with UKIP claims that at the last election potential Tories voting for them resulted in the Tories not winning 20+ seats. The result would probably have been a Labour majority not big enough to pass the Lisbon treaty with Labour rebels. Or put another way it is because of UKIP the Lisbon treaty has been passed. Brussels must love UKIP.
Posted by: David Sergeant | May 16, 2008 at 19:54
"The result would probably have been a Labour majority not big enough to pass the Lisbon treaty with Labour rebels"
Its a bit rich to blame UKIP for Conservative policy failures, for UKIP came about as a result of people no longer being able to trust the Conservative party on matters EU following Major and the cabal of EU fanatics, like Hurd, Howe, Clarke, Patton who dictated policy. As a result it needs more than gestures to win them back, and Cameron, pretending to draw a line with his promise to withdraw from the EPP, then reneging on the promise suggests more of same that drove supporters away from the party than a new start.
Posted by: Iain | May 16, 2008 at 20:05
Iain, Roger Helmer is also an honourable Conservative MEP. Sadly, Chris Heaton-Harris sold his soul to the Cameroons for a safe seat at Westminster.
Leaving the EU is only half a solution. The EU should not exist and must be destroyed. You don't need the EU, the EEA or EFTA, just free trade!
Posted by: Libertarian | May 16, 2008 at 23:02
"Or put another way it is because of UKIP the Lisbon treaty has been passed. Brussels must love UKIP"
No, I think they must love Gordon and Dave:
'Cameron has said in private that Europe is a low campaign priority - "Perhaps 7th or 8th on the list, I heard him say"
He argues that despite campaigning for a referendum on the revised EU Constitution, "Cameron will be as relieved as Brown when the Queen finally attaches her assent to Britain's ratification of the Lisbon Treaty"'
Quoted from FT columnist Philip Stephens
Posted by: ukipwebmaster | May 16, 2008 at 23:30
David Cameron has not said why the UK should remain in the EU, but on the other hand he won't come out and say that the UK should leave the EU, he and any future Conservative leaders have to choose - presumably he must think there is some benefit to being in the EU otherwise why remain in.
He also has not advocated a position he will take if his proposed reforms are rejected, or if things demanded as part of a deal with the EU are considered by him unacceptable.
Advocating remaining in the EU but not having anything positive to say about the EU is no more an acceptable position than the Federalist position which at least is honest.
The only reasonable solution is to withdraw from the EU ASAP.
Posted by: Yet Another Anon | May 16, 2008 at 23:43
When, as is acknowledged by Sir Stephen Wall, much of our public policy is in fact set in Brussels then it won't make any real difference if we have a Conservative government unless that government is prepared to call a halt to ever closer union and the increasing and stifling supremacy of the unelected European Commission over our own parliament.
Cameron may or may not be wise to shy away from europe as an issue right now but if he bottles it in government as well as in opposition then he will have squandered Britain's best chance of remaining a sovereign, self governing nation state and will have betrayed our trust.
Posted by: Mr Angry | May 16, 2008 at 23:59
Only a Conservative government can free Britain from ever closer union.
UKIP is now an irrelevance as far as getting out of the EU is concerned, as the Conservative Party is predominantly eurosceptic. In 2001 it was ambivalent, and UKIP was a useful campaigning single issue organisation, to help get the EU story across.
Cameron will not initiate withdrawal proceedings, but if events would push him that way, he would slide reassuringly towards the exit. As to what those events are likely to be, no one yet knows. Cameron is constructing a mobile unit which would be able to run both inside and outside the EU, as he has to do.
The British media is the main stumbling block nowadays. The BBC and oftimes Murdoch, who is being heavily intimidated into line by Brown's supervision of his TV cross-shareholdings.
The only newspaper which might break ranks to my mind is the Daily Express.
Surely Richard Desmond could lead a 'Britain Should Leave Europe' campaign.
Posted by: Tapestry | May 17, 2008 at 03:03
There are good practical reasons for remaining in the EPP until we have established the alternative grouping that we want.
Cameron promised to leave within months. No doubt for the apparatchiks the time will never be right.
Whilst we remain members of the EU we need to ensure that we continue to participate ... simply trying to obstruct the process is not going to work ... using the system to work to our advantage and to the advantage of the people we represent and hope to represent is the only option. To withdraw from EPP and lose our position in the Parliament at this time would be mistaken ...
This is the argument which has been made for thirty years and which I was once prepared to accept. Experience has taught that it doesn't work.
Posted by: Alex Swanson | May 17, 2008 at 04:15
UKIP can never gain national success because of its name. It's like the Anti Abortion Party or Christian Democratic Party or whatever. The party needs a more general name that can attract all kinds of people. How about renaming UKIP to the Great British Nationalist Party? Oh.
By the way, people are underestimating Cameron. The only way to solve the Europe issue is to let the country vote. Nobody can argue anything if the people have decided. It's the only fair way to deal with such a contentious issue. A Conservative manifesto commitment to a full referendum on the EU would destroy the UKIP.
Posted by: John Smith | May 17, 2008 at 09:46
I guess a desperate Brown's last real chance is to hold off the general election until after the euro elections (Oct 2009 perhaps) and hope the Tories implode over the EU in May 2009.
If the Libson Treaty has been ratified before then, Cameron is going to struggle to show a position any different from Brown's, and many will wonder why someone who has so publicly demanded a referendum is no longer doing so.
"A Conservative manifesto commitment to a full referendum on the EU would destroy the UKIP."
Indeed. Like a Labour pledge to reduce the Tax Freedom Day to a date in April would destroy the Tories. Neither are ever going to happen though, are they?
Posted by: Chad Noble | May 17, 2008 at 11:07
I guess a desperate Brown's last real chance is to hold off the general election until after the euro elections (Oct 2009 perhaps) and hope the Tories implode over the EU in May 2009.
If the Libson Treaty has been ratified before then, Cameron is going to struggle to show a position any different from Brown's, and many will wonder why someone who has so publicly demanded a referendum is no longer doing so.
"A Conservative manifesto commitment to a full referendum on the EU would destroy the UKIP."
Indeed. Like a Labour pledge to reduce the Tax Freedom Day to a date in April would destroy the Tories. Neither are ever going to happen though, are they?
Posted by: Chad Noble | May 17, 2008 at 11:13
Let's see, benefits from the EU -- higher food prices, extra taxation, food shortages partly caused by the demand for bio-fuels, a toy parliament that just rubber stamps regulations from Brussels, rule by beaurocracy, shedloads of money going to Brussels and so on. These look like costs not benefits. Oh yes, on top of all this we have to pay MPs and a bunch of clerks extortionate wages to harras us all.
Posted by: Derek W. Buxton | May 17, 2008 at 13:06
The British Museum is full of many wonders as once was Britain.
Should it not be moved lock,stock and barrel to Paris or Berlin so that more Continentals can have ease of access.
Such is the argument, supported by Cameron's Conservative Party, of the Europhiles and Federalists.
The EU is about to deliver the death blow to Britain via ratification of Lisbon, with acceptance of the clause on withdrawing clause we will therefter be unable to ever afford to leave.
Posted by: Martin Cole | May 17, 2008 at 19:18
I am writing this in my flat 400 yards from the European Parliament- in six years here, I have found not a trace of democracy but many people who pursue socialism by other means.
Posted by: Chris Gillibrand | May 17, 2008 at 23:06
If I may make a humorous illustration on the state we've arrived at and why UKIP are the only game in town if you are against the EU?
The elephant in the room is sh****ng everywhere but the Tories hold their collective nose and pretend not to notice.
They love the elephant, but know the poo smells bad and have developed ways to deal with it.
If they can't hide the fact that it's elephant poo they bring out their finest Euro-sceptic cologne which hides the smell, but the poo remains.
If the smell is really bad, the Euro-sceptic cologne would only make it worse, so they resort to 'manure modelling'. The poo looks different....but the stink remains.
I have one question for the candidates in the Crewe by-election. Exactly how are you going to prevent the closure of more than 2,500 Post Offices? Isn't this just impotent grandstanding hoping you can fool the electorate one more time?
Posted by: ukipwebmaster | May 18, 2008 at 13:13