Overwhelming majority use constituency ballots to vote for referendum and against Lisbon Treaty

BBC1's Politics Show has just announced the results of the I Want A Referendum ballots of ten marginal constituencies on the Lisbon Treaty...

The turnout was very respectable: 36% - higher says Anthony Wells of UK Polling Report - "than you'd expect to find in some actual local elections".

Pictured on the right is Robert Halfon, our candidate in Harlow - one of the constituencies where a vote was held.  Robert's Labour opponent Bill Rammell MP only held Harlow with a majority of 97 at the last election.  12,254 Harlow voters used the ballot to say they don't want the Treaty defended by Mr Rammell.

Two key questions were asked in all ten ballots:

Should the United Kingdom hold a national referendum on the EU's Lisbon Treaty?
88% voted yes and 12% voted no. Less than 1% did not answer.

Should the United Kingdom approve the EU's Lisbon Treaty?
89% voted against the Treaty and 8% voted in favour. 3% did not answer.

A full set of results can be accessed here.

ConservativeHome congratulates Neil O'Brien and the Open Europe team on a job very well done.

Comments

[About time we had a change]

Rammell is toast

[Rod Sellers]

Completely marginalises John Bercow. Hopefully we will see the back of him very soon. This should give encouragement to bombard every Labour MP intending to renege as listed on www.referendumlist.com/list

[TFA Tory]

IWAR should hold referenda in Rushcliffe (Ken Clarke's seat), Esher & Walton (Ian Taylor's seat) and Buckingham (Bercow's seat). The UKIP leadership says that it will be fielding strong candidates in those seats.

[DK]

Astounding. If ever there was a moment for politicians to take notice of the voice of the people then it is now.

[About time we had a change]

TFA Tory has a point. Given a choice, would the Conservative voters of these seats keep their candidates?

[About time we had a change]

TFA Tory has a point. Given a choice, would the Conservative voters of these seats keep their candidates?

[Ephraim Gadsby]

This is a silly exercise.

Most people who, like me, are opposed to referendums in principle, are not going to legitimise even the idea of having one by voting in this poll. The vast majority of people who bother to vote are, by definition, the people who feel very strongly about the specific issue of the EU. That is not representative of general public opinion. So of course the result is skewed.

[John F]

Yes, well done Neil and Open Europe for having the courage and stamina to carry out the referendums, despite the bullying efforts and misinformation from Labour and the Lib Dems plus there euro spporting allies in the BBC.
It will interesting to see the results of the Conhome February questionnaire to the same questions.
I believe the Conservatives should fight the Lisbon treay tooth and nail in Parliament and, assuming the legislation is passed, make a pledge to hold a referendum when they come to power at the next general election.
So David, William, George etc, this must be a nailed on pledge and no "havering" as we say in Scotland. If you want to clean up politics then there must be no more mealymouthed replies to what you will do if this treaty becomes law.
This question needs to be settled by the British people once and for all.
As for John Bercrows remark that,
referenda are "susceptible to manipulation" and he puts faith in elected representatives who, he writes, are less likely to "succumb to pressure from newspaper editors and proprietors who make populist arguments".
These are the remarks of an arrogant politician,, it assumes that all 50 plus millions of Britons are easily led like sheep by the media and that we are incapable of independant thought.
What makes him an expert on the thought processes of 50 plus million people.
I voted yes in the 1975 referendum. We were told that we were voting to join a free market, that our sovreignty would not be compromised. As we have seen the pro europeans lied because some 80% of our laws started their lives in Brussles.
What I did not vote for was a european parliament, a european court, european laws etc etc.
Now the pro-europeans like Bercrow,the Labour and Lib Dem parties want to sign away more of our sovreignty without consulting the British people despite making solemn pledges in their pre general election mainfestos to hold a referendum.
Its deja vu from the pro-Europeans again,, more lies, more worthless pledges coupled with the insults that we are too succecptible to the propaganda from the likes of Murdoch, Daily Mail, Express etc to come to a considered judgement during a referendum.
Its no wonder the Britsh public holds politicians in deep contempt, it merely mirrors the deep contempt the likes of Bercrow, Clarke, Brown and Clegg have for us.

[Ephraim Gadsby]

These are the remarks of an arrogant politician,, it assumes that all 50 plus millions of Britons are easily led like sheep by the media and that we are incapable of independant thought.

Most people care little and know even less about the ins and outs of the EU. The little they do know comes from the so-called newspapers they read. I would not trust The Sun, The Daily Mail or for that matter the Daily Telegraph or the Guardian to "inform" me about anything.

I voted yes in the 1975 referendum.

This demonstrates my point. You now argue that you were misled by politicians and the media at the time. Why should we assume that most people today are any less ill-informed than you were then?

[TFA Tory]

Mr Gadsby demonstrates the EUphile's cynical contempt for voters and democracy.

Why should the people trust the politicians who mislead them to take vital constitutional decisions with a referendum? In a referendum, citizens, rather than professional politicians, can lead the opposition campaign.

[Umbrella Man]

But Ephraim (14.05) - opinion polls echo these ballot results. They are not unrepresentative.

[Ephraim Gadsby]

I am not expressing contempt for voters or democracy. It is the use of referendums that is cynical and contemptuous of democracy.

The referendum is a tool for gutless politicians scared to make a decision, or for dictators to enforce their will while falsely claiming public opinion is on their side. It has no place in a mature democracy such as Britain.

In a referendum, citizens, rather than professional politicians, can lead the opposition campaign
Absolute nonsense. Both sides in any referendum campaign will be led by politicians. They won't let "ordinary citizens" anywhere near it.

The reason the 1975 referendum was won by the Yes campaign was that all the sensible mainstream politicians of the day - Wilson, Thatcher, Callaghan, Heath, Healey, Jenkins - were leading the Yes side, while the No camp had all the nutters and mavericks - Tony Benn, Enoch Powell, Michael Foot.

It happens I agreed with the result, but that doesn't alter my distaste for the whole process, and my irritation that in the end it boiled down to personalities and who looked better on TV.

All referendums are the same. The question of our membership of the EU, which bits of which Treaties we like or don't like, are complex issues. And referendums by their nature don't do complex - it's a Yes or No answer. Most people won't vote on the basis of whether or not they like this or that aspect of the Lisbon Treaty, they will vote Yes or No depending on whether or not they like the EU. That is not an informed process of debate, it is pandering to populist propaganda.

[Roger Helmer]

Of course we all expected a massive vote in favour of a referendum. But the overall turnout of 36% is stunning. Never mind comparisons with local elections -- this is actually much higher than the turnout in the 1999 euro-elections in which I and many of my MEP colleagues were first elected. History may look back on these results as the day the tide turned.

[Edison Smith]

I laughed out loud when John Sopel reminded Rammell his majority is a mere 97!

Harlow is surely a Tory victory in 2009. It's the kind of 'Essex Man' seat we should be taking if we want a majority.

See ya Bill!

[michael mcgough]

Tremendous results.
I hope this encourages the Irish to vote NO ---despite my TORY MEP Christopher Beazley voting along with 498 other MEPs not to accept the outcome of the Irish referendum.

If your British you don't get a vote,if you're Irish you do get one but they won't honour it.

[Dale]

Unfortunately Mr Gadsby, politicians can no longer be trusted represent the views of their constituents and so representative democracy is dead. Direct democracy is the successor to rediculous 19th century practices and is future of democracy in this country and every other.

Nanny may well know best but that doesn't change the fact that her days are numbered.

[Rod Sellers]

Ephraim Gadsby !! Sounds like a Victorian Mill Owner !!

Local Referenda may be imperfect but they are the only way of demonstrating that hard actual votes match opinion poll samples.

As Burke said " Nobody makes a bigger mistake than the man who does nothing because he thinks he can do little "

[Daniel Hannan]

Well done to everyone involved. I started to get a sense that things were going well while campaigning in Eastleigh against the German Hen: 200 concerned citizens turned up to a rally organised by me, the brilliant Maria Miller and the acting Association chairman, Richard Robinson (see http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/politics/danielhannan/feb08/staurtwheelerfund.htm). Believe me, in politics there's normally no such thing as a spontaneous crowd.

I didn't want to jinx things by predicting a strong result, but this is even better than I had hoped. Turnout is in line with parliamentary by-elections, and higher than for local elections. (To say nothing of European elections: I was elected on a turnout of 24 per cent.) In most constituencies, there were about as many "No" votes as votes cast for the sitting MPs in 2005. That should make them think.

Whatever shreds of legitimacy the European Constitution had have been torn away. Its supporters might win the vote on Wednesday; but they have lost the moral right to proceed.

[Ephraim Gadsby]

Unfortunately Mr Gadsby, politicians can no longer be trusted represent the views of their constituents and so representative democracy is dead.

Nonsense. Any MP who goes against the majority view of his or her electors will find themselves out on their ear at the next election.

I suspect what you mean is that you are fed up of MPs not reflecting your view, in particular on Europe. Clearly your view is not representative of the majority.

Direct democracy is the successor to rediculous 19th century practices and is future of democracy in this country and every other.
Unless a system is devised to make all citizens take an exam to find out how much they actually know about the issue (as opposed to believe in blind, ill-informed prejudice) then the referendum will never be a democratic tool.

[Iain]

"Absolute nonsense. Both sides in any referendum campaign will be led by politicians. They won't let "ordinary citizens" anywhere near it. "

Not the opposition to the EU's constitution, for the EUscpetic movement is driven by people outside the political establishment, and that’s been the problem all along, where the political establishment hasn’t represented the electorates wish on the EU, and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to represent these views.

[Richard Freer]

The turn-outs on these mini-referenda are really staggering. Presumably Dave will be taking to the airwaves and brandishing these astonishing results as he shrouds himself- at last- in the flag and demands that parliament accede to the will of the people. Or...not.
These statistics are truly astonishing. A 35% turnout- more than most local elections!
Stop arguing on a 'thread' and spread this news elsewhere. These are the kind of figures that could turn a feeble snowball into an avalanche. It isn't too late. Email everyone on your contact list. Ask them to do the same. The British worm turns slowly, but when it does tyrannies fall. This just might be such a moment. 2% of our population have been offered their say (400 times your average opinion poll!!)and they have spoken. Their voice will be ignored by the BBC news and most mainstream media. BE their voice, SPREAD their word, DELIVER their message....ENOUGH.

[christina speight]

Ephraim Gadsby is becoming absurder by the moment. Here and on another thread today he urges MPs to ditch their promises and for everyone to ignore opinion polls even when now backed by actual referendums with reasonable turnouts.

You'll do yourself an injury Mr G: if you go on being so completely in denial.

[Iain]

"Presumably Dave will be taking to the airwaves and brandishing these astonishing results"

He hasn't up till now, with one paltry question on the issue in PMQ's and that was using it to make a point elsewhere I don't hold our much hope of them making an issue of it. In this I am sorry to say the Conservative leadership has been pretty much a waste of space, and just like other issues, like immigration, Cameron won't touch it or give representation to the large constituency of people who do want the issue raised.

[Don Hoyle]

Ephraim Gadsby @ 14:59

You make exactly the point - in 1975, when people such as myself were looking around for some kind of guidance on Europe, because we were in uncharted waters (apparently) and lacked information, we took a guide from the likes of Mr Heath, Harold Wilson, Sunny Jim Callaghan and others. They were all saying we had to stay in the Common Market. As insurance, they fixed the opinion polls at the time so that the naturally sceptical 80% against joining became over 50% in favour of joining. Then the government went to the referendum.

As you quite rightly said, only the siren-calls of Benn and Peter Shaw were warning us of the dangers of loss of sovereignty. The choice was obviously to vote with those serious-minded heavyweights who had our best interests at heart, not the loonies. The trouble is, of course, the loonies were right!

The referendum has to be a fairly simplistic choice - Yes or No - but just because the information available is highly complex doesn't mean the voting population can't see wood for trees. And remember, we have the book on the EU, now, we don't have to read the tea-leaves!

[Dale]

"Nonsense. Any MP who goes against the majority view of his or her electors will find themselves out on their ear at the next election.

I suspect what you mean is that you are fed up of MPs not reflecting your view, in particular on Europe. Clearly your view is not representative of the majority."

First of all, you know absolutely nothing about my views. Secondly, my views are irrelevant, the majority want a referendum. Thirdly, My view is exactly the same as the majority, which is why I support the majority deciding. Finally you know as well as I do that we do not elect single issue MPs. I may well agree with one policy and disagree with another.

"Unless a system is devised to make all citizens take an exam to find out how much they actually know about the issue (as opposed to believe in blind, ill-informed prejudice) then the referendum will never be a democratic tool."

What you wrote has exactly proven my point. The situtaion you describe is not democracy. Whether you agree or disagree that referenda are democratic, the majority want them and denying them is by definition undemocratic.

My view is the majority, Your's is the minority. I beleive voters should be treated with respect, you beleive they should be treated with comtempt.

Do you see why my way of thinking will win?

PS,

I think people may take your outdated views more seriously if you werent using that rediculous pseudonym.

[Ephraim Gadsby]

in 1975, when people such as myself were looking around for some kind of guidance on Europe... we took a guide from the likes of Mr Heath, Harold Wilson, Sunny Jim Callaghan and others.

Why do you miss out Thatcher from that list? As I pointed out above, she was one of the leaders of the Yes campaign too, you know. Those were the days.

No-one has answered my question from earlier. If you regret voting Yes in 1975 because you were "misled" by politicians and the media at the time, who is to say you're not being equally misled by the Euroseptic politicians and press today?

My view is the majority, Your's is the minority. I beleive voters should be treated with respect, you beleive they should be treated with comtempt.

It is not treating voters - or democracy - with respect by taking decision-making power from elected politicians whose job it is to study, debate and weigh up the pros and cons, and giving it instead to every pub bore who holds a strong view about something, mostly based on lies from the Daily Mail. Their views are frankly not of equal worth. Would you take medical advice from a taxi driver? Would you take a majority vote in your local pub about how to treat your illness? No, you'd go to a doctor. So why not leave complex legislative decisions to the professional politicians?

I do not accuse people on this board of lacking knowledge on this subject - they have clearly studied the issues and have reached an informed conclusion based on that. I understand that and, while I hold a different view, I respect that. However, sadly most of the population are NOT so well informed about Europe. In fact they aren't informed at all. Most of them don't want to be. I don't see why they should have a say on anything.

[Miranda]

The opposition to IWAR are saying the following to discredit the exercise.

1. It does not represent a national vote as ballots only went to people on the open electoral register - not the ones who tick the privacy box and go on the closed register.

ANSWER
In ever constituency every effort was made to alert every voter to what was happening. Those on the closed electoral register could then call and ask for a ballot paper. On the ground we have spent hours of our own time walking the streets and on the phones to let people know what was happening - and have had very little help from the press, particularly the nationals.

It is highly likely that those on the closed register may have a higher propensity to vote - which would have made the 'turnout' even higher.

2. It was unfair as it only targeted Labour and Lib/Dem seats.

ANSWER
Of course, there were limited funds and the money donated by individuals had to be spent on seats where the MP was reneging on a promise due to the demands of the party whip. As many of these constituencies were Labour Lib/Dem voing, then in essence one could have expected to be more aligned with Labour policy and go along with what Labour saw 'fit'. Nothing unfair in that. Of course the Labour party have never spent any money (taxpayers) on shoring up the vote of their supporters!!!!!

[David Belchamber]

Roger Helmer or Dan Hannan, if you are still out there somewhere, can you summarise for us (i) exactly what further powers have been ceded to the EU as a direct result of the Lisbon Treaty and (ii) what are the criteria for judging that this further erosion of our sovereignty adds up to the creation of an EU Constitution?

[Malcolm Dunn]

Great work from the IWAR team.I salute you.I suspect this will be ignored by Brown ,Clegg and their minions.I also suspect that some of them will pay a high price for that at the next election.
Ephraim Gadsby, you do have contempt for the electorate don't you? You should admit it, you're in good company.

[Dale]

"Would you take medical advice from a taxi driver? Would you take a majority vote in your local pub about how to treat your illness? No, you'd go to a doctor. So why not leave complex legislative decisions to the professional politicians?"

I would see a doctor with expertise in the field of medicine to which my problem relates. If I had lung cancer I wouldn't go and see a gynocologist.

By your logic the most senior lawyer specialising in european law should be minister for europe. A senior Millitary officer should be defence secretary, The metropolitan police commissioner should be home secreatry, the head of the british medical association should be health secretary etc

What you are advocating is meritocracy. You may beleive meritoracy is better than democracy and you may well be right. But we do not have a meritocratic system and you cannot possibly try to pass off meritocracy as democracy.

I don't support the death penalty and if there were a referendum I would campaign against it, but I would accept that the result was democratic. I would not make a pathetic attempt to void the result by saying that 'voting isn't democratic'.

I think the point I am trying to make is this:

The world has moved on, you are a relic of a bygone age. The future belongs to my generation, and we choose to make our own decisions.

[graeme archer]

I disagree with every word written by Mr Gadsby. The idea that the set of people who have been elected under fptp to a seat have the right to rule out any direct democracy via referenda on constitutional issues is absurd. I would go further and give every borough the duty to hold referenda on any issue pertaining to their jurisdiction if a sufficient percentage of the electorate demanded one. The idea that only the set of people willing to become MPs should have the say on every issue which affects us, and that our only mechanism for actioning our views should be via the five yearly constituency ballot- when we're voting for an entire governmental platform- was looking creaky in the late 20th century. It looks preposterous now, in the wiki 21st century.

Let's not overlook either the massive tactical boost this fantastic campaign has given those Tories such as Robert Halfon over their labour opponents. Huge congratulations to Robert and everyone else who has delivered this set of brilliant results.

[TFA Tory]

"If you regret voting Yes in 1975 because you were "misled" by politicians and the media at the time, who is to say you're not being equally misled by the Euroseptic politicians and press today?"

Because I have studied the EU in detail, professionally and politically. In 1975, we were voting on joining a Common Market not a Super-State.

The EU is as a combination of Hobbes's Leviathian and Orwell's Eurasia, a totalitarian monster that crushes dissent and democracy. The EU only accepts YES votes and, in effect, rejected the Dutch and French NO votes on the constitution.

Leaving the EU is not enough, we must destroy it.

[Ephraim Gadsby]

By your logic the most senior lawyer specialising in european law should be minister for europe. A senior Millitary officer should be defence secretary, The metropolitan police commissioner should be home secreatry, the head of the british medical association should be health secretary etc

That is absolutely not the logic of what I said. Those professionals are unelected specialists - and they are people who can offer expert advice to elected politicians, not replace them.

Advisers advice, Ministers decide. The public elect politicians to serve as Ministers, but the public can't ratify every single decision Ministers take. Nor should they. Parliament studies the implications of policy to a level of detail most people don't have the time or inclination even to attempt.

The idea that the set of people who have been elected under fptp to a seat have the right to rule out any direct democracy via referenda on constitutional issues is absurd.
What is absurd is the idea that we should hold a referendum on every issue that annoys a certain percentage of the population.

The EU is as a combination of Hobbes's Leviathian and Orwell's Eurasia, a totalitarian monster that crushes dissent and democracy.
This is the kind of nonsense that depresses me so much about the European debate - out come the swivel-eyed foam-mouthed nutters. These people have done enough damage over the last 18 years.

Leaving the EU is not enough, we must destroy it.
Yes, as I suspected - THIS is the true agenda, finally it leaks out. It's not sub-clause X of paragraph Y in Treaty Z that these people object to. It's the EU full stop. It would be simpler if the Better Off Out brigade stopped using the Lisbon Treaty, which gives away far less than Maastricht did, as a Trojan horse for their withdrawalist agenda.

[Dan Munford]

As we watched the Aberconwy turnout figures climb from 15% (which we'd have taken), to 31% which bowled us over, to the final 36.6% on Thurday, we recognised the ferocity of public feeling on this issue. I must admit to some annoyance at facing the same hackneyed questions on "tory stunts" and the new one on the "completeness" of the electoral register from some media outlets today. I was gratified to see others taking it very seriously. So they should. The people have spoken. They should be heard. Dan Munford, Chairman, IWAR Wales.

[christina speight]

Ephraim Gadsby @2007 - Your logic and your principles are both shaky. I have come to the conclusion that you must be a labour infiltrator because (a) you can't think straight; and (b ) you have no concept of the sanctity of a promise.

You are quite happy to see promises ditched just because it is expedient for your views. Utterly without principle. And who dragged up the idea of referendums on this that and the other. You did to muddy the waters. Those of us who demand referendums demand them when the outcome of an issue is one that affects the constitutional relartion shoip between the voter- the representative and the state AND between our country and a super-national power.

These are things which should NEVER be left to a - sometimes venal - bunch of part-time politicians to whom we have temporarily LENT power. At the end of that loan the power reverts to the people, so the politicians have no right to alter the relationship without our permission.

But you clearly don't understand that.

[Ephraim Gadsby]

Of course I understand the sanctity of a promise - I've said from the outset I disagreed with making the pledge in the first place because it was both stupid and a promise begging to be broken.

But let's be realistic about this. All politicians in all parties make promises in every manifesto. Name me one election campaign where every single pledge has been acted upon by the victor. Some of them are kept, many are broken - some brazenly so. It's depressing, but it's nothing new.

By the way, I am most certainly not a "Labour infiltrator", and I despair when I see that accusation bandied around about anyone who raises their voice against the septics. The person who most closely articulates my views on this whole issue, as on so many others, is Ken Clarke. The party lost its collective sanity when it refused to make him leader. The years in the wilderness would doubtless be over now but for that idiotic act of political suicide.

[Sean Fear]

"By the way, I am most certainly not a "Labour infiltrator", and I despair when I see that accusation bandied around about anyone who raises their voice against the septics"

But you're a liar and a left wing troll, so why shouldn't we describe you as you are.

If the cap fits, wear it.

[Ephraim Gadsby]

you're a liar and a left wing troll, so why shouldn't we describe you as you are

I know I shouldn't rise to this bait. But I am neither of the above, and I would appreciate it if you could identify a single example of a lie I have told.

All views expressed are my own, and genuinely held. If you disagree, fine. But you don't know me and you have absolutely no basis on which to question my integrity. There is enough ignorance and hotheadedness in this argument without you adding to it with personal smears. Grow up.

[Deborah]

The BBC 10 oclock news didn't mention the IWAR results.
Extended commentaries about the Russian elections, Prince Harry and Gaza and a cursory item on Jersey.
Absolute silence on the Referendum.
This is the media blackout that people should be complaining about.

[Matt Wright]

I agree, the lack of media reporting of the IWAR result is a disgrace.

[passing leftie]

What is the point of this? It's not even as valuable as an opinion poll. The only people who are fired up about the treaty are people who are against it, so of course they are going to be the ones who vote. A ridiculous stunt.

[Don Hoyle]

Just before I toddle off up the wooden hill can I just say that, in defence of the Brussels Broadcasting Corporation (though gard knows why I should!!!) the IWAR result was featured on the BBC News web site earlier today. Having checked just now it has shrunk back to a minor feature in the politics section:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/default.stm

No doubt by to-morrow it will have been excised to a few words in a Mark Mardell off-site blog.

[christina speight]

Passing leftie - Just stop and work it out for a moment. The number of people who voted at 36% were overwhelmingly demanding a referendum. That is more than voted for ANY PARTY in the last general election.

Argue that that is not important !

And Ephraim Gadsby @2052 - you say "Of course I understand the sanctity of a promise" but then you show how little you care about it by your put-down " a promise begging to be broken" and then you mix up policy pronouncements with specific 'pinnable-down' cast-iron promises. There's wriggling on the hook for you trying to have it both ways. What you're saying is that you believe in promises unless it suits me to break them. You're so unprincipled you MUST be a Labour troll.

Pity you don't use your real name - afraid ?

[Ephraim Gadsby]

What you're saying is that you believe in promises unless it suits me to break them.

No. For the last time, because this is getting stupid, what I'm saying is: I don't believe in making stupid promises that won't be kept.

I am not an MP and I am not bound by a stupid promise by Howard, Blair and Kennedy at the last election. I didn't agree with it then and I don't agree with it now so I'm NOT breaking any promise.

On the subject of promises broken - remind me, are we still in the EPP or not? Funny, I'm sure someone promised several years ago that we were withdrawing.

I've had enough of debating in ever decreasing circles with blinkered Europhobic zealots for one day. I'm off to bed. Goodnight.

[Dale]

"I've had enough of debating in ever decreasing circles with blinkered Europhobic zealots for one day. I'm off to bed. Goodnight."

What has europe got to do with the debate about democracy?

As far as I can tell the debate has been about your demophobia not anyone else's europhobia, has it not?

[ToryJim]

I voted yes in the 1975 referendum. We were told that we were voting to join a free market [...]
What I did not vote for was a european parliament, a european court, european laws etc etc.

Having spent two minutes on Google it seems these predate the 1975 referendum anyway:

European Court of Justice - established 1952

European Court of Human Rights - established 1950

European Parliament - has existed under that name since 1962

[Lindsay Jenkins]

David Belchamber – the treaty of Rome 1957 is a constitution. Subsequent treaties are amendments to the constitution.

ToryJim is right with his dates – the European Court of Justice was established under the European Coal and Steel Community.

And ponder this. Attlee, Churchill, Eden and their governments all knew very well indeed that the ECSC and the EEC involved loss of sovereignty. It was well understood from the 1940s onwards. And all those leaders said no very firmly.

The rot started with Macmillan (lots of dirty tricks) and of course Heath (even more dirty tricks).

Mrs T when she realised that she had been misled -as she had – paid a high price for saying No, no, no.

[Letters From A Tory]

This exercise just goes to show that anyone who says that British people aren't interested in politics is horribly misguided.

[John Wilkin]

"I've had enough of debating in ever decreasing circles with blinkered Europhobic zealots for one day. I'm off to bed. Goodnight."

Here you see a typical tactic of the leftie - close down the argument by calling your opponents fascists/elitists/Zionists/europhobes whose views aren't worth listening to.

[passing leftie]

Here you see a typical tactic of the leftie - close down the argument by calling your opponents fascists/elitists/Zionists/europhobes whose views aren't worth listening to

There is only one leftie here, and it certainly isn't Mr Gadsby, who claims to be one of yours.

[David]

The party is going to have to find a better answer when Brown asks what we would do in power if the treaty has already been ratified. I know what my answer would be.

[ColinW]

The date: 21st April, 1993.
The subject: A consultative referendum on the Maastricht Treaty

The following 72 Tory MPs, who still sit for their party in the House of Commons, voted against a referendum:

Peter Ainsworth, David Amess, Michael Ancram, James Arbuthnot, Peter Atkinson, Tony Baldry, Henry Bellingham, Sir Paul Beresford, Tim Boswell, Peter Bottomley, Julian Brazier, Angela Browning, Simon Burns, Alistair Burt, Sir John Butterfill, James Clappison, Kenneth Clarke, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, Sir Patrick Cormack, David Curry, David Davis, Stephen Dorrell, Alan Duncan, Nigel Evans, David Evennett, Michael Fabricant, Liam Fox, Roger Gale, Edward Garnier, Cheryl Gillan, John Greenway, John Gummer, William Hague, Oliver Heald, David Heathcoat-Amory, Charles Hendry, Douglas Hogg, John Horam, Michael Howard, Michael Jack, Robert Key, Greg Knight, Jacqui Lait, Edward Leigh, David Liddington, Peter Lilley, Peter Luff, Andrew MacKay, David Maclean, Patrick McLoughlin, Michael Mates, Andrew Mitchell, Malcolm Moss, Richard Ottaway, Jim Paice, Eric Pickles, John Redwood, Andrew Robathan, Nicholas Soames, Bob Spink, Richard Spring, Sir John Stanley, Anthony Steen, Gary Streeter, Ian Taylor, David Tredinnick, Peter Viggers, Nigel Waterson, Ann Widdecombe, David Willetts, Tim Yeo, Sir George Young.

Here’s the roll-call of the 12 Lib Dem MPs who supported a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty (sitting MPs are denoted by an *):

David Alton, Paddy Ashdown, Alan Beith*, Menzies Campbell*, Don Foster*, Nick Harvey*, Simon Hughes*, Nigel Jones, Charles Kennedy*, Liz Lynne, Matthew Taylor*, Paul Tyler

And here’s the four Lib Dem MPs who voted against a referendum in 1993:

Alex Carlile, Sir Russell Johnston, Robert Maclennan, David Steel

Hat-tip: Philip Cowley of Revolts.co.uk, courtesy Ben Brogan.

[ColinW]

The date: 21st April, 1993.
The subject: A consultative referendum on the Maastricht Treaty

The following 72 Tory MPs, who still sit for their party in the House of Commons, voted against a referendum:

Peter Ainsworth, David Amess, Michael Ancram, James Arbuthnot, Peter Atkinson, Tony Baldry, Henry Bellingham, Sir Paul Beresford, Tim Boswell, Peter Bottomley, Julian Brazier, Angela Browning, Simon Burns, Alistair Burt, Sir John Butterfill, James Clappison, Kenneth Clarke, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, Sir Patrick Cormack, David Curry, David Davis, Stephen Dorrell, Alan Duncan, Nigel Evans, David Evennett, Michael Fabricant, Liam Fox, Roger Gale, Edward Garnier, Cheryl Gillan, John Greenway, John Gummer, William Hague, Oliver Heald, David Heathcoat-Amory, Charles Hendry, Douglas Hogg, John Horam, Michael Howard, Michael Jack, Robert Key, Greg Knight, Jacqui Lait, Edward Leigh, David Liddington, Peter Lilley, Peter Luff, Andrew MacKay, David Maclean, Patrick McLoughlin, Michael Mates, Andrew Mitchell, Malcolm Moss, Richard Ottaway, Jim Paice, Eric Pickles, John Redwood, Andrew Robathan, Nicholas Soames, Bob Spink, Richard Spring, Sir John Stanley, Anthony Steen, Gary Streeter, Ian Taylor, David Tredinnick, Peter Viggers, Nigel Waterson, Ann Widdecombe, David Willetts, Tim Yeo, Sir George Young.

Here’s the roll-call of the 12 Lib Dem MPs who supported a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty (sitting MPs are denoted by an *):

David Alton, Paddy Ashdown, Alan Beith*, Menzies Campbell*, Don Foster*, Nick Harvey*, Simon Hughes*, Nigel Jones, Charles Kennedy*, Liz Lynne, Matthew Taylor*, Paul Tyler

And here’s the four Lib Dem MPs who voted against a referendum in 1993:

Alex Carlile, Sir Russell Johnston, Robert Maclennan, David Steel

Hat-tip: Philip Cowley of Revolts.co.uk, courtesy Ben Brogan.

[Harry Hardcastle]

There seems to be a misconception that the UK electorate voted in a referendum as to whether to enter the EU, EC, or "common-market. THIS IS NOT TRUE! We voted whether or not to STAY IN! This after being IN for about 2 years thanks to the fountain pen of Mr Ted Heath
My old economics lecturer would always say there were no economics in the common market, only politics. How right he was! The UK has been "taken to the cleaners" by "Europe" which historically has little to thank BRITAIN for.
I would not recommend anyone vote for UKIP, but they are the only ones who are right about the EC. Foreign companies are buying us up, our manufacturing utilities etc are all but gone. They even own Kielder Water for F***S SAKE.