Commons tells the British people that they can't have a referendum

The guilty men:

Gold prize for guilt: Brown and the vast majority of the parliamentary Labour Party for breaking their election manifesto promise.

Silver prize: Nick Clegg for putting his pro-Europeanism before his party's traditional commitment to democracy.  13 LibDem MPs defied Clegg's instruction to abstain.

Bronze prize: The five Tory MPs who said they were voting against the people having a say.

Comments

[Paul D]

"Scottish affairs spokesman Alistair Carmichael, countryside spokesman Tim Farron and justice spokesman David Heath resigned from the Lib Dem frontbench team."

At least a few of them believe in their manifesto commitment

[Deborah]

I hope the newspapers will provide a list of the guilty tomorrow.

[Chris Palmer]

'At least a few of them believe in their manifesto commitment.' - Paul D

Either that or they were worried about losing their seats. Well, Heath and Farron anyway.

[Time to decide]

Now the ball is in Cameron's court. Will he promise a referendum in the manifesto?

[Paul Oakley]

Assuming that the constitution will now be ratified it's time to look to future tactics.

David Cameron has rightly and comprehensively pointed out the problems with a post-Lisbon EU. Those difficulties will not suddenly become tolerable to the Party or the British people once the constitutional framework is a political reality.

Can we renegotiate? History says no. Heath was presented with a "take it or leave it" option before we joined the EEC. Labour's 1974 promise to alter the terms of our membership also failed.

The reality is that there are only two options. Either we decide to be enthusiastic participants in a country called Europe or we conclude that we'd be Better Off Out.

[ChrisD]

Paul, I am no more happy to be pushed around and manipulated by the BOO brigade than I am the lets just give up UKplc and become one big happy federal state.
Neither of these groups are serving the interests of the majority in this country, and any attempt to turn this argument around to then service the desire of another extreme minority view would be behaviour akin to what we saw today.

[eugene]

These three LibDems.....do they want to stay in a Party that has no hope of power and is just an annoying distraction or do they want a better deal for Britain?....these three LibDems should be called upon to move over....defect to the Party that has a plan...and is waiting to save us all from this useless 'government'.

[comstock]

Did any Labour MPs rebel?

[Richard Tyndall]

Unfortunately Chris I am afraid that is a choice we don't have. Many of us think there is no middle way on this. The EU will not allow one. So one of these days you are going to have to make that choice just as some of us already have.

[christina speight]

My maths says that 559 voted + 4 tellers + The Speaker. That leaves 61 unaccounted for compared with a majority of 63. Were they mostly LibDems doing as they were told?

Time to decide - "Now the ball is in Cameron's court. Will he promise a referendum in the manifesto?"

Indeed! He has promised "not to let it rest".

This is his testing gtime - he's had long enough t o think about it. It cannot have come as a surprise.

[Jack Stone]

Eugene. I agree totally but that plan must not at all costs involve our withdrawal from the European Union. Firstly of course because that wouldn`t be in our interests at secondly any move to do that would simply mean for certain that this useless government would be re-elected once again.

[Steve Green]

I knew this would happen. That said I cannot describe how p*ssed off I am with Gordon Brown, Nick Clegg and all those ar*eholes who voted against a referendum. They promised me a vote and then stole it away from me because they didn't like the way I would use it.

[Disgusted]

Anyone who thinks that we should not leave the EU, doesn't agree that we should live in a democratic society, either.

Not only were we denied any vote on the Lisbon Lie, but Brown was told and agreed that parliament cannot change a word of it. The entire process of ratification by parliament is a sham.

There is no point in slogging your guts out to get a Tory victory, as whatever the EU decides to do a Tory government will have to enact. Westminster is voteing to neuter itself.

[Votedave]

Shame on all the MPs who voted no.
And respect on all the Labour and LibDem MPs who voted yes, for putting their principles ahead of their careers.

[Stewart Geddes]

Jacvk Stone... Will you please explain why it would not be in our interests to leave the EU?

We would not lose ANY trade. The EU sell more to us than we buy from them. We would save a fortune in payments to the EU that would reduce our taxes significantly.

We as one of the largest GDP's in the world would have greater impacts on the EU by doing what suited us than we have inside.

The only downside would be big queues at Calais because the French would make it difficult, in which case we divert ferries to Belgium and Holland where it would undoubtedly be easier.

[Paul Oakley]

ChrisD - BOO is motivated by a demand for Parliamentary democracy and national self-determination. As such it is disappointing to hear you describe it as "extreme".

What Third Way objectives would you have and how would you achieve them in a 26-member state where the veto is fast disappearing? I ask in a genuine spirit of enquiry.

[eugene]

Jack Stone: Yep! I personally would vote to stay in the EU if that was the choice....I just want our politicians to agree to their word and let people tell the EU that we will not give blank cheques to them....and they go too far too often. We just need to state clearly that we are in Europe, part of Europe but will not be run by Europe. The LibDem position is that we must either love the EU or hate them- what a stupid position.

[Iain]

"Commons tells the British people that they can't have a referendum"

That's the kind way of saying it, but in truth MP's who have denied us a referendum have crapped all over the electorate laughing at the electorate while they did, and told the electorate in the clearest possible terms that we, our opinions, and their promises to us don't matter one jot, and if we expected MP's word and the manifesto on with they stood for Parliament to be worth something then we were fools.

Question is once you have reneged on your word its devalued and worthless from there on. So what are they going to tell us at the next election? What are they going to say to us make us believe their promises are worth anything? There is nothing they can do or say to change the fact that their word is worthless, and Parliament irrelevant, and that is the real loser today, Parliament.

[Stewart Geddes]

Eugene. You cannot be in Europe, be part of Europe and not be run by Europe. The positions are incompatible.

The Europe that now exists does not permit the "middle way"

It's either all in or out.

[Matt Wright]

A "Monument of Lies" should be constructed with the names of those MPs who voted against a referendum inscribed on it. Sad day.

Matt

[Mr Disgusted]

Sold down the river as expected, if only Cameron could give us a solid reason for hope but he wont.
Traitors should still be hanged.

[Malcolm Dunn]

What a bloody disgrace.To three hundred and eleven dishonourable members who broke their promise to the British people your word is worth precisely nothing.

[eugene]

Stewart- there is no way on God's earth that I am going to argue with fellow Tories (I assume you are) about Europe. That is what helped us land up with this scrap heap of a government we have. Agree to disagree. :) The argument is about these people who LIED in their manifesto and treat us as too unworthy to be heard.

[Nu Con -]

The only consolation is that all empires ultimately fail and the people then regain some form of self determination. We will just have to wait until then, be it time or force that brings it about.

[Rod Sellers]

Bad though it is - Never give in !

What opponents of the EU Superstate concept have failed to do is to get across to Joe Public how it affects all the day to day, bread and butter issues that he cares about.That includes Local Government. The May elections should be used to connect local labour candidates with the Labour MP's in their areas who have betrayed democracy. Names, dates and culpability.

[ChrisD]

"It's either all in or out."
Now where have I heard that rubbish today, I am sick to the back teeth of being told its one way or take a hike by the two groups with cynical vested interests, but minority positions and support.
No one can force us to take either position, so stop peddling that lie. The listed Conservative BOO MP's amount to a similar number to those that voted against their party today, neither of these positions demonstrate the majority view of the party.

[An]

"Bronze prize: The five Tory MPs who said they were voting against the people having a say."

they were just 3 in the end. Taylor didn't vote and Bercow voted with the rest of the Tories.

[will]

I have no problem with the likes of Clarke, Curry or Gummer sticking to long held views and not voting with the party. Curry mentioned during the debate that he had not come under any pressure from the whips.

In return Labour MP's like Gwyneth Dunwoody, Frank Field & Kate Hoey backed our motion. Again conviction politicians with long held views.

ChrisD - I think we would have alot more BOO MP's if Cameron had not said that MP's that sign up can't serve on the front bench. PPC's are under even more pressure not to sign up.

[Paul Oakley]

ChrisD. On the assumption that you're not a supporter of the Lisbon Constitution, it's not going to disappear if you close your eyes and count to ten.

Those of us on the EUsceptic wing are also realists. Acceptance of a state called the EU is out of the question for us. However, we are open to persuasion about the benefits of an EU-lite.

On that basis I ask you again. What do you propose as an alternative to the options of in/out? It would (honestly) be interesting to have your thoughts.

[Rich]

To 'Disgusted' who said: "Not only were we denied any vote on the Lisbon Lie, but Brown was told and agreed that parliament cannot change a word of it" - you obviously don't understand international treaty negotiation if you think this is either unusual or just a Europe thing. All treaties, once signed by the states concerned, are then sent for ratification. That process in international law allows only for a yes or no vote by the national legislature or referendum. There is never a chance for additions, removals or alterations.

[Sam R]

Well, the die is now well and truly cast. Shades of "no taxation without representation"
What now lies before us, thanks to the treachery of Brown and most of the Labour Party and the spineless followers of Clegg (an old name for a blood-sucking fly) is much like what the American Colonists were faced with.
No doubt there were those among the colonists who were timid enough to think that, no matter what they decided, the ostriches at home would veto them. To our good fortune, those with backbone stood fast for freedom.
As a British Subject my loyalty is, first and foremost, to the Crown. If Tony Blair or any other jumped-up lickspittle presumes to masquerade as "President of Europe" I am prepared to do what the American Colonists did and REBEL.
Let us go our own way, and if the Eurocrats are silly enough to kick us out and with us our subsidy to them, simply call their bluff.
No doubt, in the Eurocrat style of not tolerating any form of dissent they may even start locking us up. Then the fun will begin!
Maybe the time has come for us to look to the possibliity of uniting with our cousins on the far side of thr Atlantic.
I have never felt so angry or betrayed.

[Jonathan Nildrohain]

These three LibDems.....do they want to stay in a Party that has no hope of power and is just an annoying distraction or do they want a better deal for Britain?....these three LibDems should be called upon to move over....defect to the Party that has a plan...and is waiting to save us all from this useless 'government'.

Lets look at the three:

Tim Farron His voting record fits hand-in-glove with his party.

David Heath Likewise. Thirty years in the party.

Alistair Carmichael . Has never voted against the party line until today.

Hardly defectors looking for a way out. I think this will blow over for Clegg. He screwed up, but, as shown by Heath on Newsnight just now, even when the Lib Dem 'shadow cabinet' is split, it's all terribly nice about it.

Main winners today are Cameron and the Tories. Only 5 defectors of their own (only 3 according to the BBC, two of whom must have been Clarke and Gummer), a party pretty secure in its euro-scepticism, with most - if not all - of its propsective candidates for future Westminster elections euro-sceptic, the future is looking rather united on this issue. It is Labour and the Libs struggling to be at ease with themselves.

[Paul Oakley]

Still no answer from ChrisD about the details of "in Europe, but not run by Europe."

He must have gone to bed early.

[christina speight]

I am disappointed in the negativity displayed above. The result was totally predictable so any depression should have been neutralised long ago.

All along we have known that the crucial thing is the stance that Cameron takes now, or if not now, when the parliamentary process is over. The Lords have vast cohorts of LibDem europhiles so I'm not particularly hopeful there.

Cameron has said "We will not let it rest there". He must have known this would be the outcome so he equally must know what he had in mind. Let's pray that he will opt for an advisory referendum telling the EU that if they do not agree to repatriation of this and that and the other then he will recommend abrogation of the treaty under the relevant Vienna Convention on Treaties.

So David C: we depend on YOU

[Mr Angry]

1) We did not lose any election ever because of our stance on Europe, that is just one great big Europhile lie.Along with the one about EU membership and creeping fedralisation being in any way whatsoever in Britain's best interests.

2) The British people, on the rare occasions they are asked and not just told, are, sensibly, broadly in favour of a common market but strongly against any kind of Federalised Eurostate and also against "ever closer union".

3) Labour and the LibDems have clearly, mendaciously and cynically broken a specific election manifesto promise to give the people of Britain a referendum on the Euro Constitution.

4) The Conservative party is overwhelmingly Eurosceptic, except for a small minority of those who habitually think that they know better than everyone else but are completely unable to give a clear explanation as to why. Sadly a very few of these individuals currently hold far far too much sway over the top of our party and are desperately struggling to thwart the views of the majority of both party members and voters from being heard.

5) Any further betrayal of the eurosceptic view by Cameron, Hague et al will render the party not worth voting for anymore.

[Jonathan]

There is now no point in proposing a referendum on the Treaty post ratification. The Treaty is a done deal and will be operating for 2 years before we get into government. Time enough for some particularly egregious muscle flexing by our new masters in the Commission. We need to go negative. Everything they do we don't approve of must be pointed out. Everything we want to do but can't must be explained.

What is needed now is the promise in the manifesto of a Royal Commission on the future of our relation with Europe with the costs and benefits spelt out for all to read. This will get us through the election without promising a referendum on in or out and without making the election about Europe but without giving up on a popular issue for us and with a definite policy on Europe offering hope to all us eurosceptics.

If we handpick the Commissioners, we should have the whole tissue of lies exposed and the smell would make the public demand an in and out referendum, to which we might reluctantly have to bow.

[John D]

"Any further betrayal of the eurosceptic view by Cameron, Hague et al will render the party not worth voting for anymore."

Oh for goodness sake 'Mr Angry', you do talk drivel sometimes.

[michael mcgough]

Have Cameron or Hague issued any statement?

[anywood]

Jonathan Nildrohain, isn't it significant that David Heath now has a Conservative opponent who has very strong Eurosceptic credentials - Annunziata Rees Mogg? Previously Heath has always 'sat on the fence' - look at his stance on fox hunting - to paraphase, 'some of my constituents are for a ban, some against, I have no opinion.....'

[Simon W]

Look - whether it was right or wrong let's please not demonise those in our Party that voted against.

Giving the Bronze prize to our own MPs for "voting against the people having their say" is just a way of isolating some of our own MPs.

As a Party we are a broad Church - and yes that includes pro-Europeans - and let's not forget these are CONSERVATIVE MPs we are talking about - they work for our Party and should not be slammed in this way.

[Yet Another Anon]

Did any Labour MPs rebel?
29 Labour MPs apparently voted for a referendum, 15 Liberal Democrats rebelled and I heard that 5 Conservative MPs voted against a referendum.

[Yet Another Anon]

In the original legislation for British membership of the Commonwealth - 72 Labour MPs (lead by John Smith) rebelled and voted for it thus saving Edward Heath's bacon.

[Dale]

"they work for our Party and should not be slammed in this way."

Kennethe Clarke, as wonderful chancellor of the exchequer he was, has done nothing for the conservative party since he left 11 downing street, unless you count undermining 4 leaders and contributing to the downfall of 2 of them.

And John Gummer hasn't done anything positive for the conservative party EVER. He is an embarrassment and an electoral liability without taking his views of europe into consideration.

I wont pretend to know anything about the other guy and I cant be bothered to put his name into wikipedia so I will simply presume he is another die hard europhile from Major's cabinet.

They are all yesterdays men. In fact I'm going to steal Diane Abbots analogy of former new labour ministers and call them 'the undead' of the conservative party, sporadically sitting up in their coffins to embarrass and undermine us.

[Chad Noble]

Well if they lose their jobs as MP's, these Tory MP's who voted against are clearly ideal material to become Tory MEP's...

[Rod Sellers]

Bad though it is – We should never give in !
What we opponents of the EU Superstate concept have failed to do is to get across to Joe Public how the EU affects all the day to day, bread and butter issues that he cares about. That includes Local Government. The May elections should be used to connect local labour candidates with the Labour MP's ( plus Lib Dem and Tory) in their areas who have betrayed democracy. Names, dates and culpability. Local council candidates should be pressed on where they stand on either a Referendum or a Renegotiation. There are several issues that chime locally - and that are EU driven:
• Post Office closures are made inevitable because of EU regulation
• Drain on local services caused by unfettered EU Immigration.
• Over complicated Waste and Recycling methods caused by EU targets
• Ever increasing size of lorries on our roads caused by EU Transport Policy
And many, many, more.

With a co-ordinated campaign the up coming Local Elections could be forced to focus on the negative overall impact of EU membership as it works currently and increase the understanding of a need for a fundamental restructure.
This argument will only be won if it focuses on EU impact at the local level.

[Mr Disgusted]

How can you fight this when Cameron hasn't even stated what few crumbs of hope he is prepared to toss to the masses. Give us a solid choice now, not vague statements and only then once backed into a corner.
Heavens above, the Tories should be looking at a landslide but they aren't are they? Ever wondered why?

[Deputy Editor]

It's worth noting that the Conservative MPs who voted against a referendum don't really have power in the party with one key exception - John Maples, who has responsibility for our parliamentary candidates...

[Dale]

"It's worth noting that the Conservative MPs who voted against a referendum don't really have power in the party with one key exception - John Maples, who has responsibility for our parliamentary candidates..."

Wasn't it a 3 line whip?

[Malcolm Dunn]

I thought only 3 Tories voted with Labour, Clarke,Gummer and Curry. Am I mistaken?

[christina speight]

John D @020 quoting Mr Angry - "Any further betrayal of the eurosceptic view by Cameron, Hague et al will render the party not worth voting for anymore." replied "Oh for goodness sake 'Mr Angry', you do talk drivel sometimes."

In fact it is John D that is out on a limb. Subject to what Cameron says now or in the next week or two, many, many of us will decide that ( as Labour pinches any good detailed policies) on the only matter of principle which matters for our whole future there would be no hope at all.

So a retrospective referendum from a Tory government could keep us on board to WIN an election. Cameron has promised "Not to let the matter rest 'there'. (now 'here'] . We are waiting.

[Mr Disgusted]

Why a retrospective referendum just to keep us on board? Isn't this worth more than to just tout for a few votes!
Are you saying that if Cameron can get away without doing so that he should?

[TFA Tory]

Wake up, Malcolm Dunn!! John Maples, Vice Chairman (Candidates) abstained with Ian Taylor. He should resign or be sacked like any frontbencher would.

[ToryJim]

There are several issues that chime locally - and that are EU driven:
• Post Office closures are made inevitable because of EU regulation
• Drain on local services caused by unfettered EU Immigration.
• Over complicated Waste and Recycling methods caused by EU targets
• Ever increasing size of lorries on our roads caused by EU Transport Policy
And many, many, more.

...in which case we really ought to provide a detailed alternative to each of these.

If we support reducing the maximum size of goods vehicles, let's say so and explain why.

If we support a reduction in the regulation of waste/recycling, let's say so and explain why.

If we support an increased level of state funding for (certain) post offices, let's say so and explain why.

If we support the introduction of visa regulations for EU citizens wishing to enter the UK, let's say so and explain why.

Even if EU rules prevent us doing anything now, it would be much healthier if voters believe we have a coherant policy on all these issues :-)

[Fergus Mason]

Here is a petition requesting that the Queen refuse to give Royal assent to the EU Constitution bill:

http://petitionpoint.com/building/LisbonTreaty/

Thanks in advance for signing it.

[Daniel]

The central idea behind the EU has always been to eliminate national parliamentary democracy, and transfer all legislative powers to a mutually-appointed unelected and unaccountable class of politicians in Brussels. This group of politicians, so envisaged the democracy hater Jean Monnet (never elected to anything), would be the new aristocracy who would rule the peoples without their consent being necessary.

What is being done is that national parliaments now have very little exclusive legislative powers left (15% maximum and decreasing by the month). The real power now lies by the Politburo (Commission) and Council combo.

But the real cunning bit about Monnet and his group of democracy hating and elitist rule loving people was, to set the system up in such a way that most gullible people would believe the EU was democracy in action. Of course it isn't but it is nice to be able to keep up the pretence.

Arguments against the EU being a democracy.

1) often it is said by democracy hating EU-philes that the fact that the EU parliament is elected proves it is a democracy. But of course it does no such thing. The 'toy' parliament in Brussels/Strasbourg has no real powers, cannot impose anything and cannot stop the Politburo (Commission)/Council combo even if it wanted to.

2) if that fails, the democracy hating EU-philes will argue that the EU council (and politburo/commission) are appointed by or consist of national government ministers. But again, this does not make the system in any way democratic. First of all national governments do not have a mandate to create an extra layer of government which supersedes the national democracies. Second, government ministers can use the council to bypass national parliaments by simply agreeing with ministerial colleagues in Brussels and confront national parliaments with established facts. A big blow for national parliamentary democracy. National parliament are reduced to powerless talking shops who can do nothing but implement the laws made by the unelected crowd.

3) when legislative decisions are being made by an unelected and unaccountable class of mutually-appointed politicians instead of by directly elected national parliaments, the EU can be considered to be a direct attack on the parliamentary democracy system.

4) the EU's zeal to avoid referendums and when referendums do produce undesirable results, simply ignore the results. Remember that sovereignty lies with the people and national parliaments and politicians do not have a mandate to transfer their country's legislative powers to Brussels.

But by keeping the national parliaments (who are now powerless), national governments (relegated to 2nd class status) alive, the EU philes can keep up the pretence about the whole system being democratic. The reality is that if the EU can be said to be 'democratic', by the same measure the systems in 1933-1939 Germany and 1956-1964 Soviet Russia should also be considered 'democratic'.

Cue frantic democracy hating EU-philes denouncing me as a dangerous right winger who wants to destroy their beautiful EU. I love it how if you confront EU-philes with the thoroughly undemocratic nature of the EU, they always go berserk as if you are some kind of fascist.

All those who voted against a referendum are TRAITORS