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He wont leave the EPP. Simple as

geoff,I think you're wrong,he will leave the EPP because it will cost us dearly if he doesn't.We have given him the benefit of the doubt over this EPP scenario once,a second episode would be very bad.Besides,let's show the EU little bit of our spirit and British demeanor instead of caving in each time.

At my local chairman's college re-selection meeting, ALL the candidates promised to leave the EPP, even if this necessitated sitting as independents. Even if David Cameron were to go back on his word (and I don't think he will), they should be held to theirs.

Hans Goet Pot----- is giving a talk at 5pm at the LSE tonight ---Tory masochists welcome no tickets required.

A Conservatives word is always negotiable.

Once we have the new prospective grouping up and running, it might be able to stitch up a deal where the new group and EPP can co-operate in an informal issue-by-issue basis, and especially when it comes to maximising committee seats for us and them.

A lesser-of-two-evils thing it may be, but surely we'd rather seats on committees went, where we can make that choice, to the EPP than the PES, because aside from the EPP's federalist bent, the individual parties probably agree with us about most/many things.

O/T.The Times today reports the debate on MEPs expenses. It mentions the typically dishonourable role the EPP played in ensuring that geniune debate has been supressed. I would hope that our MEPs would be thoroughly ashamed to be members of such a group. Sadly some of them far from being ashamed are rather comfortable with it.

If we agree with the EPP on a specific issue we vote with them, if we disagree then we don't vote with them, we don't need an informal arrangement.

I'm unconvinced that places on committees represent anything more than decoration on an MEP's CV. What can anyone on a committee if he's going to be outvoted all the time.

Here we go again. Tim, you are doing the party a big disservice by getting us grassroots Tories to air our views on Europe - again. For that reason, I am not going to comment. We had discussed the EPP issue at least twice in February alone. I made my views known and, surprisingly, they haven't changed.


Yet again, The Europhiles like Justin want shut down debate on the EU and the EPP. Tim's article is spot on. The EPP's has reneged on its deals with Hague and Howard.

Poettering should have had no say on who belongs to the ED Group. Yet the quisling Kirkhope bowed to his demands to remove the Whip from Helmer. Now Dan Hannan has also been summarily expelled from the EPP-ED Group.

There are very good reason why the EPP is desperate for a new deal. The first is money. The EPP needs the ED cash to funds its bloated Secretariat. The second is Committee positions. The more members in a Group, the more committee positions it gets. The third is that a new Group could attract members from the EPP. That would mean even less cash and fewe Committee positions.

The EPP is running scared. The Conservatives will have more money for campaigning against the Super-State if they leave EPP. They are BETTER OFF OUT of that group of federalist cheats.

For many of us this promise is utterly non-negotiable. A promise is a promise (isn't that what Cameron et al are saying about about Brown + Clegg on the Referendum question)

I for one would not vote for any party led by someone who would break their specific promise. And I'm not alone. That means that the lead we have now in the opinion polls would vanish overnight.

In any case both Roger Helmer and Dan Hannan both say how much more effective they are as British MEPs away from the EPP.

"Yet the quisling Kirkhope"

It is words like "quisling" or "traitor" that makes peoples' eyes roll when we talk about Europe. Many Europhiles (wrongly in my opinion) support greater integration because they believe it is in the national interest. These people may be misguided but they're hardly traitors. And even in the case of those who might genuinely be considerered traitors (e.g. they support greater integration because they're anti-patriotism), using words like "traitor" still sounds over the top and damages the Eurosceptic message. Instead of seeing things in terms of war we should be talking about the threat to democracy i.e. our own government can be overruled by politicians elected by other people. And instead of sounding negative we should make a positive proposal - the EU to be just a free trade zone!

JH,others are making their views known and some of them have changed.It seems you wish to shutdown a sensible chat on the EPP.Why post here about it if you feel so?Why not just ignore it?As you say,you made your views known,so,be open enough to let others here have their views known.

This has become a joke. The promise David Cameron made helped him to win the leadership. If he delays carrying it out any longer who will believe him in the future?

I thought it had already been decided that the new grouping will have to wait until after the 2009 EP elections.

Nothing on the ground has changed.

So why are we discussing it now? Does Dear Editor like to watch his hit count soar every time an EU debate gets really venomous? :)

I was in Brussels over the weekend, and saw the Espace Leopold, Berlaymont and the Justus Lipsius buildings for the first time. The potrait of Peter Mandelson the Commission have in their lobby is terrifying.

Edward is UKIP thu and thru.
Let us not be drawn into arguments that others make for us.
Dan wanted to be xcluded from EPP.
Dont get sucked in by those who would destroy us.

Good post @11.04 Richard. Although I'm probably the last one to talk a rational debate on Europe is what we need in this country above all else.

If it takes Dave three years to keep his word - 'we will leave the EPP' - assuming he finally does in 2008, why exactly does that inspire confidence in him? Do all his pledges come with an unspoken, 36 months backdated clause, or just this one? More fool those Sceptic MPs who used this as their excuse to back him.

I agree with Justin – I very rarely bother to contribute to EU debate here because, frankly, we always go round and round in circles. I’ve never seen anyone change their opinion on CH as a result of the debate. With the media always happy to report a nice bit of Tory infighting, I really don't see the benefit on thrashing it out endlessly.

We should (and I believe we will) leave the EPP, but only because David Cameron said we would. His political weakness is his moral compass, which sometimes seems a little slow to react (think “life before politics”, think Conway, think “ducking and diving”). He needs to show that he is principled, that his word really is his bond-- something I feel sure would have been drummed into him through his childhood.

So, while Joe Average doesn’t give a toss whether we are in the EPP or not, they do care whether his promises can be trusted.

Tory 2008 seems to know me. Wonder who he is, hiding behind his nom de plume- or it is a she?

I was a Tory for more than 50 years, still am one, that`s why I joined the UKIP.

Sadly the party is not the one I was once a proud member of. Cameron thinks he can win without getting the likes of me back on board. Well, we`ll see.

Richard, if you want just a free trade zone then you should advocate that Britain should leave the EU and join EFTA.

I described Kirkhope as "quisling" because its is accurate. In addition to his failure to enforce ED Group autonomy, he sold out the Hague and Howard agreements in exchange for a Vice-Presidency of the EPP-ED Group. It was his duty as delegation leader to implement the agreements, which every European candidate had to sign up to and that were included the European manifestos.

Martin Coxall, nothing has changed on the ground. Our delegation continues to ignore our European manifesto commitments that reflected the Malaga and Howard agreements. The EPP are still riding roughshod over the ED Group and expelled Hannan when it had no power to do so. Now we have the EPP trying to negotiate another agreement that it will ignore.

A large proportion of our MEPs talk of supporting the move to form the new group whilst collaborating with the EPP in trying to thwart it. They support Caroline Jackson's Europhile rants in the press. It is appalling that our members no longer have the power to demote these tricksters and frauds down the list.

Tim is demonstrating movement leadership in exposing the EPPs dirty tricks. He deserves our gratitude and praise rather than the condemnation of the censorious EUphiles who post here.

"Instead, he is likely to propose some form of compromise. “By all means create your new group,” he will say, “but let’s not break off all relations. Surely there is a way for your group and the EPP to retain some kind of technical alliance in the European Parliament, even if only as a way to maximise our share of committee chairmanships and other posts”."

I hope he does, as I think that is right thing to do. OK go on Guys - hit me, I'm wearing my armour plated suit today!

TFA Tory - I would love to know who you are in "real life" as I do find some of your posts unnecessarily offensive!

I should have thought that if the EPP have demonstrated TWICE that they do not regard any 'special new groups' as a genuine legal arrangement, and therefore do not feel obliged to pay any attention to them, that David Cameron would realise that THIS TIME he has much, much more to lose, if he risks being seduced into repeating the 'dummy' process.

Even though Mr. Cameron had nothing to do with the two previous 'special arrangements' that were just shams, if he allowed himself to be bamboozled, even though the offer might sound more genuine and useful to US, that it would, in reality be just Scotch Mist.

The EU and the EPP are desperate to keep us the way we are, not because they care a jot about US or what happens in our over- crowded country, BUT SOLELY because they want our MONEY, and as much of it as they can 'persuade' us that we owe them!!!!!!!

Sally, I am only offensive who dishonour our manifesto commitments and undermine our Party's integrity. If those commitments had been delivered by the delegation and the EPP, I would support a continued alliance.

The agreements have proved to be convenient smokescreens for our EUphile MEPs to continue to work their federalist allies in delivering the EU Project, i.e. the constitutional Super-State.

I used to be an enthusistic supporter of the EU and believed the propaganda about the Single Market. Having had close involvement with the Commission and Parliament, both professionally and politically, I have had a reality check.

The EU is a monstrous, totalitarian Leviathan. It is the Eurasia that was prophesied by George Orwell in 1984. It even has its own version of Newspeak - Eurospeak. Eurospeak is the authoritarian language of the EUphiles and the EPP - lies and propaganda to defend the centralisation of power in Brussels and the emasculation of our Parliamentary democracy. Dissent is simply not allowed.

Having experienced the EU and EPP dirty tricks personally, I am convinced that we are BETTER OFF OUT of both.

TFA I'd still like to know who you are in "real life" - at least come clean and tell me if you have met/know me?


I wish I could understand your faith in the eu. Once I thought it a force for good but discovered it is not.

The EPP is truly awful - Roger and Dan ejected for telling the truth. The EPP simply does not allow informed debate and throws dissenters to the wolves. Our equivalent would be to remove the whip from Ken Clarke.

TFA Tory is probably Roger Helmer, Sally.

Think you could well be right, Justin! Sad he doesn't have better things to do with his time.

Given the actions of Hans-Gert Poettering in muzzling the democratic process in the EU Parliament, that got Dan Hannan ejected, we should treat this man as the anti-Christ and have no truck with at all.

It's been said before, BUT needs to repeated, these EU proles are wedded to the Euro super state, will brook no dissent, will subvert any opposition, will lie and cheat all in the name of the master plan.

Better of out of it.

Justin and Sally: TFA Tory is not Roger Helmer: he always posts with his own name.

Anonymous Eurocrat is right and Justin and Sally are wrong - and they have no right to know who TFA Tory is or to wrongly accuse a public figure of posting under that name.

@TFA Tory:

If indeed you are a Tory, have you ever considered that maybe this party is no longer the one for you?

Your unique brand of unhinged hysteria would make you a better fit amongst the ranks of the other UKIP trolls that clog up this site's comments page whenever the EU is mentioned.

George Hinton @1451,I certainly agree with what you say but think you should have included JH and SR because of their continued support of the undemocratic EPP and it's master,the EU it's self.The Conservative party are openly damaged by pro EU posters on here trying to shut down every debate that criticises their EU.

@Deputy Editor:

It's an interesting game, though. TFA Tory is clearly borderline deranged at times, so it's a fun guess-the-mental quiz for all the family.

Roger Helmer is far too lucid for it to be he.

Can we please stop bringing UKIP into the posts every time we have a pro EU/anti EU spat?

@R. Baker

It's not about trying to shut debate down, it's about realising that there's no point having any kind of debate. As has been pointed out, we go round and round, and then somebody will say that it's a bad as the third reich, Godwin's law gets invoked, and we all go to bed knowing that although TFA Tory lost the argument, nobody really won it.

Until some clueless MEP kicks us all off again in three days time with an insulting Platform post, and the endless cycle of misery repeats.

@R. Baker:

Perhaps you are unaware, but UKIP has an active policy of trolling Tory blogs on the subject of the EU.

Which is why you always have to bear in mind that whenever somebody says outrageously hysterical things about the EU (rather than a well-reasoned criticism), there's a significant chance that they're not a Tory and mean us harm.

Deputy Editor - Anonymous Eurocrat may well be right although there is nothing to stop Mr Helmer from posting as himself AND under a pseudonym - it is perfectly possible! And whilst I acknowledge that I have no "right" to know who this person is, they equally have no "right" to post in an offensive and insulting manner to those who disagree with their views. I am extremely angry that you choose to take this tone.

Most of the people I've met from UKIP are small "c" conservatives, in many cases they used to be members of the party who left during the Major years - Nigel Farage himself is a perfect example.

As such I see no reason why they shouldn't contribute to a debate on Conservative Home

@John Wilkin:

I agree. But there's a difference between contributing and trolling. Trust me, I know.

"Your unique brand of unhinged hysteria would make you a better fit amongst the ranks of the other UKIP trolls that clog up this site's comments page whenever the EU is mentioned."

The only thing that amazes me more than your rudeness is your hipocracy.

It's sad that we have a screaming match here because the topic is very important. I work in an EU institution (hence my anonymity) and I couldn't agree more that the Tories need to leave the EPP, whether it is to form another group or even to sit on their own.

The fact of the matter is that quite aside from any Eurosceptic issues (I am a moderate Europhile) the EPP is a corporatist party following a 70s model of social market issues that has absolutely no commitment to economic liberalism. It is fully committed to the CAP and CFP, trade protection measures and export subsidies and the minority of its members who feel otherwise believe that they are trapped. It is essential for the Tories to break free, as until they do there will be no group on the centre right that is willing to put a free market agenda at the head of its priorities.

If this thread doesn't get back on topic I'm inclined to close it down.

I think you should, Editor

I truly despair of this whole issue and it's one of the main reasons I left the Party. When you see - up front - as a constituency Chairman the shenanigans that go on in terms of MEP candidate selection, you see how rotten this whole issue has become for the Conservatives. Most say one thing at the hustings and then renege for 5 years. The actual process itself is a farce.

Most MEPs bear very little resemblance to the Party as a whole so quite why a process is created to perpetuate this is beyond me (and very sad).

Sally why do you want this thread shut down so much?You know that many on here wish for it to be kept open.A little Democracy,please Sally?

AnonymousEurocrat,looking at what you say,do you think others would join us in our move out of the EPP?

The Conservatives have missed a trick here. There are actually two forms of the EPP, the party and the group, the Tories are in the group but not in the party and they are completely separate.

Any nationally elected parliamentarian can join any party. I think there is a Tory MP who is a member of the UEN (I think, but I would need to check sources)

If they were serious about leaving, then they would have made sure to set a new official 'party', probably called the MER or whatever, which would have set the foundation for a new group for the Tories and others to slip into.

Unfortunately the deadline passed in October 2007. Had they formed this 'party', they would have been eligible for money for staff and offices. It has worked for a couple of the other smaller groups in the Parliament in the past.

Don't close it down Tim, it's not half as ill mannered as most EU debates on this site tend to be!
TFA Tory is not Roger Helmer,I was with Helmer today and he was certainly not blogging, he was speaking at the extremely well attended I Want A Referendum lobby of parliament.
You do yourelf no credit at all Sally/Hinchcliffe making baseless assertions like that.

In response to R Baker at 16.11, the answer is yes but the Parliament's rules make it difficult to form an official group - defined as at least 20 members (no problem here) from six member states (the sticking issue).

So far the Czech ODS are on board but others are less forthcoming. Lots of the smaller EPP constituent member parties are frustrated by the EPP's stand on economic issues but are at the same time happy to go along with their own Member State's membership of the euro; and in some countries euroscepticism is not a viable political issue.

If David Cameron wants to have a viable group he needs to say to potential allies that they should join the Conservatives on the economic reform issues but they don't have to vote with them on matters like the euro. I think if he does that, and stresses that the point of the new group is about reform, not euroscepticism, then we could have a new group, in which the Tories are in the driving seat.

As a coda, I would stress that Conservatism as we define it is very different from Christian Democracy, the principle philosophy of the EPP. Many of the ALDE liberals are not like the UK LibDems, and for example the Dutch VDD and D66 parties in the ALDE group are closer to us than the EPP's Dutch party, the CDA. If Cameron stresses reform, not Euroscepticism, a viable group is much easier.

"You know that many on here wish for it to be kept open."

Why - so they can be rude and insulting about people who have worked hard for both Party and country for years?

I have no wish to "shut down" democratic debate - on the contrary I welcome it. But I do not welcome baseless and vicious insults from those who are too gutless to give their real names.

Anyway - you carry on your chimps tea party to your hearts' content - I am out of here!

fellow anonymous eurocrat at 16.16: there are no Tories in the UEN. But I agree with you that the MER is as good a name for a new group as you are going to get.

I ought to learn the difference between principle and principal too...

David Heathcote-Amoury is the MP who is a member of the European Democrats, the European party (not group) run by Jens-Peter Bonde (co-leader of Ind-Dem with Nigel Farage). Not the UEN as I mistakenly put before. UKIP are not members of this party.

It is thanks to him that the Party is still afloat as he brings with him a flag that they need to get the minimun number for Party status and therefore funding and a headquarters

See the website http://www.eudemocrats.org/90/

As I said, you don't need to be an MEP to qualify, any national legislator will do.

I am told by a very good source that current MEPs are not allowed to resign from the EPP, otherwise the Conservative whip will be withdrawn from them.

This is despite the fact that two Conservative-whipped MEPs are outside of the EPP.

Close to MEP source at 16.52: you are right, but this is only until the end of this parliament. All candidates for 2009 will be required to go into whatever Group (or non-Group) that the leader of the party directs them to.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me who are the Eurofanatic/quisling/treacherous/false Tory MEPs who are defying the will of the people, etc., etc. The only ones I know are both standing down at the next election and the remainder are all opposed to the Euro, the Constitution, a "united states of Europe" and so on. They are all campaigning for a referendum and they have all signed up to Cameron's request for a new group - assuming that is possible, which I doubt very much. So where is the problem?

I have just got in from delivering 1,000 GLA/Boris leaflets, only to read utter s*** from disloyal Euro-bores. Whilst I and a large number of fellow posters want to see Conservative elected at all levels of government, a tiny but vocal minority do f+++ all except undermine the party and play into the hands of our opponents at EVERY opportunity! Shut this thread down? Shut the bloody site down, IMHO. Committed Conservatives will continue to work hard for the party - right-wing Euro-obsessed bigots can go pleasure themselves in private!

Justin: there is nothing bigoted about wanting to leave the EPP. Some of us want the EU to work, and as long as the EPP and PSE mentalities run the show it will be impossible to reform the EU and create a free market in Europe.

There are, on the other hand, a few bigots in the EPP. One Bavarian member is obsessed with the Sudeten German issue, many of the Italians in Forza Italia were perfectly content to run an explicity anti-homosexual campaign in their last general election and the Fidesz Hungarians have been a little slow in distancing themselves from some extreme nationalists. I could go on.

"a tiny but vocal minority do f+++ all except undermine the party and play into the hands of our opponents at EVERY opportunity!"

I surely can't be the only person who sees the irony of JUSTIN HINCHCLIFFE ranting about 'tiny but vocal' minorities undermining the party can I?

Here are some undisputed Facts:

1) David Cameron pledged to take the tory meps out of the epp.
2) The vast majority of grassroots want us out of the epp.
3) It is now the official policy of the tory party to leave the epp.

So how on earth is arguing against these facts and criticising the position of the grassroots and the leadership 'loyal'?

The answer is it isn't.

I really hate to be rude, but I want this thread closed:

Justin Hinchcliffe is seen by most people who have ever heard of him as a pompous arrogant self publicing fool. I have not been able to find any favourable opinions on him anywhere. Luckily for him, tottenham conservative association is a complete joke which is clearly how he managed to worn his way to the position of chairman. One can see the kind of person that justin hinchliffe is by watching his little appearance on 18 doughty street where he made a pass at Iain Dale ( a real 'hard working conservative' activist)

Once again, I apologise for getting personal and would normally never do so but I beleive strongly that a person has the right to hold a certain view, especially when that view is the MAJORITY view. When I disagree with someone, I don't make accusations of them being a UKIP troll.

People like Justin Hinchcliffe, Martin Coxall (although he would like to portray himself as a sensible contributor is really nothing more than a hypocrite) and much more recently Sally Roberts (who used to be insightful and extremely mild mannered) are what is wrong with conservative home.

I would like to point out that it is merely coincidence that these people hold pro-eu views as their are plenty of sensible europhiles and plenty of not so sensible eurosceptics.

BTW Mr Editor,

I was blocked for less than what Justin Hinchcliffe has said. He has not only insulted you, he has insulted all of us.


If you have read or are aware of my previous posts on Con Home you will be aware that my view is absolutely eurorealist.

It is good to have Justin and Sally posting because their views remind us of what we must achieve.

To recap DC won the leadership on the promise to take us out of the EPP. My and many more votes were secured on that promise and he must deliver to retain credibility.

One of DC's problems was that our MEPs were elected on a manifesto that included membership of the EPP. Several MEPs I know made that clear to DC. They also agreed that the committment to the EPP would not appear in the next european manifesto. That would then leave DC and our MEPs free to honour the pledge following the next eu elections.

While I regretted that DC would have to wait so long to fulfill his promise it was clear to me that we should wait and I have.

The foregoing does not alter my view that if we want to have a parliament in Westminster worthy of the name the only course of action open to us is to leave the eu asap.

I can't believe that the EPP is trying the same deceitful trick a third time. Twice they have offered us the earth to stay. Twice they have forgotten their side of the bargain before the ink was dry. We won't fall for it a third time.

I have asked the Editor to delete Dale's last post (whoever he is). It contained a nasty personal attack on me and an unfounded attack on my local Conservative Association. And I have never made a pass at Mr Dale (simply not my type -- no offence, Iain).

Let 'Dale' continue with his smears, and I'll continue with my campaigning for Conservative victories and sensible One-Nation policies generally.

Good night!

If we don't get our act together in opposing the EU and really meaning it, UKIP's few percent will be enough to stop us forming a government in 2010.

Justin Hinchcliffe wrote "Shut this thread down? Shut the bloody site down, IMHO." Nobody forces him to visit or post on this site so he should just go away. When it comes to personal insults, he is amongst the worst. The Editor should ban this sad little authoritarian nobody. This site is for those who advocate and practice freedom of speech.

And, BTW, I am not Roger Helmer so Sally Roberts, Martin Coxall and their EUphile friends can go back to their infantile guessing games. It is so funny to read their delusional and paranoid rants. BETTER OFF OUT children!

Who needs left-wing agitprop when you've got threads like this. United over Europe, indeed.

However he fudges it, Cameron needs to get out of the EPP.

Martin Coxall wrote "@TFA Tory: If indeed you are a Tory, have you ever considered that maybe this party is no longer the one for you?" It is telling that the EUphiles will welcome opportunist defectors from other parties but want traditional Conservatives like me to leave or be expelled. The EUphiles have not repudiated the arguments that I made above with regard to the Conservatives' relationship with the EPP. Instead they have resorted to smearing a serving Conservative MEP. The EUphiles are the truly nasty element in our Party.

Either my criticism was justified, or it wasn't. It makes no difference whether I post my last name aswell as my first and it makes no difference whether Justin Hinchcliffe knows me or not.

It's time that people like Justin Hinchcliffe understood that they are a liability.

Just because he uses terms like 'one nation conservatives' doesn't make him one and just because he says that his views are the majority doesn't make it so either, in fact if we listen to people and look at opinion polls we can quite clearly see how out of touch he is with the party AND the people.

"Who needs left-wing agitprop when you've got threads like this."

You forgot the question mark at the end of that question and you clearly haven't been reading the comments, it has all been caused by a left wing 'agitprop'.

All right, TFA Tory - I accept you are not Roger Helmer. I think what threw me was your little comment "Having experienced the EU and EPP dirty tricks personally..."
I am intrigued but of course know that I "have no right" to ask you to explain!

...and nearly eight hours later there was still a deafening silence from Mr TFA Tory! Perhaps he is exhausted after all his ranting? or perhaps he is wondering why he wrote ""Having experienced the EU and EPP dirty tricks personally..."


We must not be tied to the EPP, but we could vote with them when we agree.

Sally, I have been working today. Your indignant demand that I should respond at your convenience is beyond parody.

My dealings with the EU and the EPP relate to EU legislation and its impact on my business. Leading EPP officials told me that it would vote against dirigiste, socialist IMHO, legislation but then changed its mind and voted for it.
The EU's propaganda claimed that it would open up the market. In fact, it skewed the market in favour of our Spanish competitors.

I have also had dealings politically but those will remain confidential. Suffice to say that certain members of our delegation in Brussels are two-faced hypocrites. They tell you one thing to your face and stab you in the back.

Dear TFA,

Thank you so much for being good enough to respond and I am delighted for you that you are so busy and productive!
I do feel that you should consider some Anger Management as if you continue to rant so uncontrollably you will end up making yourself ill.
Kind regards,

Sally, if you saw what I have seen, you would be very angry too. The behaviour, and hypocrisy, of one Tory MEP in particular has been utterly deplorable. I found out because I have sources at the highest level in the Party.

TFA if you have had a bad personal experience then I am genuinely sorry - it is always stressful when business is affected by political decisions. But I am afraid that it does explain why you have made some pretty unpleasant comments about people on this thread - it is clearly deeply personal!
I do not think there is anything at all to be gained by continuing this discussion so I will just reiterate what I said above (and which although it may seem tongue in cheek is actually genuinely meant) that you will end up making yourself ill if you rant and rave in such a bitter fashion.

Back to main point, let's stop discussing the colour of the stripes on the deckchairs on the Titanic and start dealing with the iceberg: we are living in a post-democratic State, ruled from above by an unaccountable (and accounts-less) Commission and from below by a variety of QUANGOs.

The European Parliament is not a parliament in our sense but a mere assembly: it has tiny powers, mainly an overall veto - all the rest is incidental.

Westminster is reduced to the level of a major city council and the Prime Minister is little more than Mayor of England, yet we still use the vocabulary of a sovereign State. Do I hear the band playing Abide With Me?

A Tory / UKIP pact in the European Parlament?


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