The unacceptable face of Islam in Britain

We linked to it yesterday - a post by MPACUK (the Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK) calling on its readers to "expose every last detail of the Sufis who tried to destroy their own community".  These Sufis have enraged MPACUK because they co-operated with Policy Exchange - "a pro Israel right wing, neoconservative think tank, which has gone out of its way to dig dirt on the Muslim community."

MPACUK writes:

"If you know who they are – please write in and we will expose these men and women for all the Muslim community to see."

Matt Sinclair has fisked the MPACUK article and concludes with this:

"This is a direct attempt to recreate the murder of Theo van Gogh. These people are not just wrong and ignorant. They're dangerous. Their nasty work threatens brave people with death. Of course, it isn't our job to enforce the law upon them if they have broken it by inciting violence."

We don't know if there is anything the police can or should do about organisations like MPACUK, but we have to hope someone is keeping an eye on them.  Their inflammatory post must certainly endanger "the Sufis who tried to destroy their own community".  Their post is clearly not the work of a responsible organisation.

Comments

[Malcolm Dunn]

These people seem as Matt Sinclair states to be dangerous and also seriously deluded if the regard Policy Exchange as a neocon organisation.
Having looked at their website I was comforted by the fact that a number of Muslim commentators were criticising the stance taken by MPACUK unreservedly.

[Common Sense]

And let's not forget the disgraceful role of the BBC in this. Newsnight refused to cover the original Policy Exchange report into the widespread availabity of extremist literature in British mosques because its editor, Peter Barron, didn't like the amateur appearance of a handful of receipts (out of dozens).

Despite the report being vindicated, Barron then chose to expend vast resources on attempting to prove that these receipts may have been forged. Newsnight obtained a forensic opinion to that effect, withheld it from PX until the evening of transmission and refused to hand back the original receipts so PX could obtain an alternative expert opinion.

Worse - much worse - Newsnight chose to broadcast allegations of fraud against moderate Muslims who had taken risks by infiltrating hard line mosques, even going so far as to identify their current whereabouts.

Inevitably, MPAC and other extremist groups are now calling for the moderates to be hunted down, using the irresponsible and unproven allegations from the.'authoritative' BBC as justification.

Already a young Muslim girl who worked for Policy Exchange HQ (and had nothing to do with the report) has been named on the MPAC website as a target.

Peter Barron, Newsnight and the BBC are a disgrace. They chose to ignore a serious report into Islamist.extremist but instead broadcast slanders against those who attempt to expose it.

[Moral minority]

Policy Exchange's internal failures allowed Newsnight to go on the attack. Dean Godson's performance against Paxman was abysmal. He failed to address the key issues relating to the allegedly faked invoices.

Since the appointment of Charles Moore and Dean Godson, Policy Exchange has abandoned its original conservativatism. It has now joined the Henry Jackson Society, Social Affairs Unit and the Centre for Social Cohesion (sic) in promoting the hysterical anti-Muslim agenda.

The neo-conservatives and the well-funded Israeli lobby, e.g, CFI and Atlantic Bridge, are mounting a concerted attempt to hijack Tory foreign and security policy.

Rudy Guiliani's refusal to be photographed with Cameron demonstrates what the neo-cons really think of him. He was only interested in a vote-grabbing photo opportunity with Lady Thatcher. Rudy could not even be bothered to prepare a proper speech.

So we are are stuck with the ludicrously inept Sayeeda Warsi on one side, the neo-cons on the other and Hague trying to steer a sensible path in the middle. No wonder Tory foreign and thnic policy is in such a desperate mess!

[Deputy Editor]

Readers may remember another time CH and MPAC crossed swords...

[Alan S]

Dean Godson was abysmal on Newsnight. All attack dog and no persuasiveness.

Charles Moore's Daily Telegraph article was much better:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/12/15/do1501.xml

[George Hinton]

This is all quite sinister and an example of the intolerance that we see from some parts of Muslim society.
Clearly MPACUK are demonstrating that they are unfit for public role and also show that they have not grasped any aspects of British mores and culture.
In view of Gordo's much vaunted "Britishness" campaign perhaps he should now review his governments realtionship with such a body. It also calls into question the existence of such bodies, that are clearly divisive, not at all inclusive, and bearing the baggage and history of other cultures and countries.
Any public grants should be revoked and withdrawn.

[Common Sense]

Thank you, Moral Minority. Your comments such as "promoting the hysterical anti-Muslim agenda" and "The neo-conservatives and the well-funded Israeli lobby" reveal your unpleasant (and unConservative) agenda.

[Moral minority]

The real issue is not MPAC's views, nor Sinclair's non-fisk, but whether the receipts were faked. Newsnight's forensic evidence seemed damning to me.

Charles Moore's Telegraph article failed to address Newsnight's allegations. Instead, we got a disingenous attack on Newsnight for failing to give Policy Exchange's report the publicity that its apparently faked evidence did not deserve. Common Sense repeats the same themes as Moore. Is Common Sense a Policy Exchange troll?

Until Policy Exchange proves that the receipts were not faked, the report's findings must be taken with a large dose of the proverbial salt. Godson and Moore have threatened Newsnight with legal action. Bring it on and let's see who is telling the truth under the risk of perjury!

[Moral minority]

Neo-Conservatives are not conservative. They are big government, imperialist liberals. Henry Jackson was a Democratic senator. Richard Perle, the leading neo-con strategist, is another former Democrat. Other leading neo-cons, e.g. Kristol, are former Trots.

The true conservative approach is to welcome and encourage diversity, promote small government and be sceptical of foreign military entanglements. Andrew Sullivan's blog comments on The Atlantic Monthly website are classic examples of such conservatism.

[powellite]

"The true conservative approach is to welcome and encourage diversity, promote small government and be sceptical of foreign military entanglements."

Who's in a position to judge what's 'Conservative' and what's not? The history of conservatism is of shifts to adapt to different circumstances at different times. Sometimes that has included foreign military engagements, sometimes it hasn't.

The beauty about Conservatism is not its dogmatism, but its pragmatism and ability to change with the times.

[Cllr Francis Lankester]

MPAC is not a face of Islam, it is one face of political religion. Run by Ashgar Bukhari, it is a vile racist organisation spreading conspiracy theories and stirring up community division.AB prefers to be a big fish in a small pond rather than working in the mainstream.

[Common Sense]

Sorry, Moral Minority, it's not 'neo con' to be worried about the (very real) threat from extreme Islamists.

It is, however, profoundly unConservative to dlsmiss such concers as "hysterical" as you sought to do.

As for Newsnight's believability, the more one learns the less credible (and creditable) Barron's accusations become.

[Moral minority]

The threat from the IRA was gar greater than Islamic extremists. The neo-cons are trying to create a climate of fear so that they increase their power through the surveillance state and justify further military action against Islamic countries.

A classic example is Norman Podhoretz, Guiliani's foreign policty, who is a neo-con extremist. His wife and son are also prominient neo-con activists. The Podhoretz family are neo-con attack dogs who have smeared their opponents as anti-semitic for over 25 years. The Podhoretz family wants the USA to attack Iran. It is no surprise that Guiliani wants a new PATRIOT Act (sic) with even greater power.

The neo-cons need allies in this country to whip anti-Muslim hysteria to support their imperialist agenda for a Guiliani, or even McCain, administration. The Policy Exchange report can be viewed as a key neo-con tool in creating a climate of fear here.

[Peter]

The Newsnight attack on Policy Exchange was a classic BBC smear job. Lots of "innocent" Muslims - clearly coached - saying they knew nothing about the receipts. Men with extremist backgrounds (unmentioned by the BBC reporter) posing as moderates. Forensic 'evidence' selectively obtained and filleted but presented as objective fact. And, of course, Policy Exchange given no chance to examine or refute the expert witnesses.

This was the BBC at its anti-right worst - making the case for the prosecution but dressing it up as the judge's summing up.

[Sean Fear]

I don't think anyone seriously doubts that a significant minority of British mosques are peddling some deeply unpleasant views, regardless of whatever criticims may be levelled at Policy Exchange over a handful of receipts.

Islamist terrorism is *not* an invention of the neo-Cons or the Israelis.

[Moral minority]

Can "Peter" prove that the Newsnight interviewees were coached? That is an unsubstantiated smear. How does that he know that there were "men with extremist backgrounds (unmentioned by the BBC reporter) posing as moderates"? "Peter" seems to have inside knowledge like "Common Sense".

Let "Peter" answer some questions with his inside information. Why were there wrong addresses on the key receipts? Can he explain why forensic evidence showed that that receipts from different shops were written by the same person in one location?

It would be even better if Dean Godson or Charles Moore answered these questions on this thread. But I expect a deafening silence.

[Moral minority]

"Islamist terrorism is *not* an invention of the neo-Cons or the Israelis."

No but the threat has been over-stated. The threat is mainly due to British involvement in the invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. Any involvement in a US attack on Iran would increase the threat considerably.

The biggest funder of Islamic extremism is the Saudi government. But Conservative spokesman continue to be apologists for the despotic Saudi regime. The Bush administration failed to condemn the Saudi justice system when the gang rape victim was sentenced to be lashed and imprisoned. Stinking hypocrites!

[Sean Fear]

The threat predates both of those events.

[Sean Fear]

Moral Minority, as far as I am aware, only 6 of the receipts were actually disputed, and 2 of those on the rather weak ground that they were produce on an inkjet printer (I print my invoices on an inkjet).

There are legitimate questions about the other 4 receipts.

[Moral minority]

The threat did exist before, Sean. The 7/7 attack was after. Contrast the differing attitudes towards Irish and Muslim terrorism in the UK.

The IRA was funded by members and sympathisers in the US and Irish Republic. Britain did not invade either and the US Congress has failed to pass the extradition treaty that would bring IRA terrorists to justice.

There was no anti-Irish hysteria here. There were no inquiries into IRA fundraising or distributing Republican literature in the Irish pubs in Glasgow or Liverpool. We know that such activities were common in Irish pubs in New York and Boston.

[Sean Fear]

"There were no inquiries into IRA fundraising or distributing Republican literature in the Irish pubs in Glasgow or Liverpool."

I'd be very surprised if the security services had not taken a very keen interest in such activities. It's what we pay them for, after all.

As it happens, I can remember programmes like the Cook Report taking a very keen interest in Republican and Loyalist fund raising activities.

[B]

"Policy Exchange's internal failures allowed Newsnight to go on the attack. Dean Godson's performance against Paxman was abysmal. He failed to address the key issues relating to the allegedly faked invoices.

Since the appointment of Charles Moore and Dean Godson, Policy Exchange has abandoned its original conservativatism. It has now joined the Henry Jackson Society, Social Affairs Unit and the Centre for Social Cohesion (sic) in promoting the hysterical anti-Muslim agenda.

The neo-conservatives and the well-funded Israeli lobby, e.g, CFI and Atlantic Bridge, are mounting a concerted attempt to hijack Tory foreign and security policy."

Couldn't have said it better myself. If you are going to make accusations like this, you need to be able to back them up 150%, not just through assertion and bluster.

Policy Exchange have gone down A LOT in my estimation over this.

[Moral minority]

All "B" has to do is to read the content of these organisations' websites.

The Henry Jackson Society, the leading British neo-con organisation, and is very close to policy Exchange.

HJS describes itself as the Project for Democratic Geopolitics like the neo-cons Project for the New American Century. Its International Patrons include Richard Perle and Bill Kristol (the leading US neo-con hawks) and their close ally Irwin Stelzer.

The signatories to HJS' Statement of Principles include Nick Boles (former Policy Exchange Director) and Michael Gove MP (former Chairman of Policy Exchange). Robert Halfon (Political Director of Conservative Friends of Israel and PPC for Harlow) is also signatory.

The main HJS campaign is the "Creation of an Arab Shia Democratic Alternative to Iran". There is no declared strategy for achieving that objective. In practice, military intervention is the only means.

The HJS has over 20 staff in London & Cambridge. That is more than ASI, IEA, CPS and Politieia combined. It must have deep pocketed donors!

Douglas Murray of the Centre for Social Cohesion is a self-confessed neo-con. His book "Neo-conservatism: Why We Need It" was published by The Social Affairs Unit.

[Moral minority]

Conservative Friends of Israel is a classic example of the rich Israeli lobby. It spends hundreds of thousands a year on staff, offices and taking MPs and candidates on jollies to Israel.

The CFI membership is £20 so it would need tens or hundreds of thousands of members to pay for ist activities from membership fees alone. That is not possible so CFI must be largely funded by large private donors or the Israeli government.

Robert Halfon and Victoria Kluk have refused to answer my questions on how CFI is funded.

[Sean Fear]

"Robert Halfon and Victoria Kluk have refused to answer my questions on how CFI is funded."

Perhaps they've got a couple of hundred better ways of spending their time.

[Editor]

This isn't a thread about CFI or HJS. I'll delete further off-topic comments.

[Moral minority]

Editor, I was only responding to other posters' comments. The HJS-Policy Exchange links are highly relevant to this thread. They show that MPAC was right in stating that Policy Exchange is "a pro Israel right wing, neoconservative think tank, which has gone out of its way to dig dirt on the Muslim community."

[Editor]

Fair enough, MM, but let's move on now please.

[Bexie]

Bear in mind that traditional Muslims view Sufi's as polyethists and aposatates. There is a long history of Muslim persecution of this particular sect

[wendy mann]

"Their post is clearly not the work of a responsible organisation."

of course a responsible organisation would not have promoted and endorsed a war based upon lies and deceits , without acting responsibly and seeking facts rather than hyperbole and paying political debts.

now whats worse 1 million dead iraqis over and above those that would have died anyway or an article that seeks to name and shame the individuals that have taken part in yet more deceit and lies against islam and muslims.

do you see a pattern emerging here, it appears the tories like to back deceits and lies rather than looking for facts and honest answers.

it is not mpac that has been acting fraudulently but policy exchange, and at what cost to the muslim community in the uk. maybe we should remember who the victims of this really are. innocent law abiding british muslims.

[oxymoron]

Interestingly, the MPAC website is blocked in my workplace, a FTSE 100 company publicly committed to diversity, so somebody in authority here obviously regards it as unacceptable.

[Moral minority]

No Oxymoron (such an apt name!), corporates block most political websites.

It would appear that the Policy Exchange stooges on this thread are unwilling to respond to my questions. When confronted with truth and reality, the neo-cons always run from debate.

[Adrian Peirson]

Ha, you aint seen Nothing yet.
Even the Popes worried, and he's going to heaven when they do him.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

http://bfbwwiii.blogspot.com/2007/10/frankfurt-subversion.html

[Yet Another Anon]

Even the Popes worried, and he's going to heaven when they do him.
Maybe he's finally realised the error of his ways and that he's going to the other place? Besides, as I understood it, even under Roman doctrine the Pope wasn't guaranteed a place in heaven, in fact that would be limited Predestination which Roman Catholics would consider heretical, if he was Reformed Evangelical on the other hand he might reasonably believe he was Predestined to Heaven, provided he didn't think that was rather usurping Divine Prerogative.

There are Islamist Terrorist groups, just as there are terrorist groups in virtually every religious grouping (and secular one) including dogmatically athiest ones and at various times different ones from those various groupings have come to the fore - I recall hearing about a Roman Catholic supporting group in Beirut and an Eastern Orthodox one shelling each other while other people including Muslims were innocently caught in the crossfire, the Stern Gang were not Muslim, nor were the Serb or Bosnian Serb military, or the Red Army Brigade, or IRA, INLA, KKK, the cult that let off nerve gas on the Tokyo Underground, the Nazis etc... etc.... etc...

[Stuart]

Its not the first time MPAC UK have 'outed' people and suggested their readers remonstrate. They did it over Muslim shops that sold Israeli Dates over Ramadan. They published addresses and phone numbers in London and Manchester. On wonders what risk there was to these shops and their owners. I believe the police in Manchester were alerted.

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/4069/34/#jreactions

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/4059/34/

[Stuart]

"The threat from the IRA was gar greater than Islamic extremists" - that will because we capture more Islamic Terrorists and foil more plots. We also have more people working on anti-Terrorism and have a
good profile of where we might find them.

I believe I heard on BBC 5Live that there have been 200 convictions for Islamic related terrorism in the UK since 9/11.

[Dontmakemelaugh]

“Policy Exchange's internal failures allowed Newsnight to go on the attack. Dean Godson's performance against Paxman was abysmal. He failed to address the key issues relating to the allegedly faked invoices”. Moral Minority.

I watched the exchange between Paxo, the Sage and Onion of our unbiased, impartial, impeccable PSB set about stuffing Mr Godson. Ladies and gentleman I give you the BBC renowned for its honesty at all times and never once known to be engaged in smoke and mirrors; the organisation that refuses to hand over a report accusing it of anti Israeli bias (and quite right too – it would never do to have the Beeb doubted). We all know that Beeb is scrupulously fair in its praise when mentioning Bush and Israel, indeed its sycophancy towards them is sickening; so it comes as a complete surprise that the organisation that employed Crick (instrumental in the downfall of IDS) and Gilligan ( seemingly Iraq war supporter) should round against those judged by Moral Inferiorty to be “Neocons”. (A Neocon, by the way is someone that does n’t vote Green)

But to get back to Paxo . From where I was viewing,( in Tesco’s), our PSB Inquisitor appeared to be overcome with a furious bout of righteous wrath directed at poor old Godson. Poor old Godson for much of his BBC dressing down had just about enough time to reply, “Well I “ or “Err” before being interrupted by Paxo imperiously flattening Godson with his verbal steamroller.

Eventually, Godson was allowed to string a sentence together, in which he rebutted the allegations of the miffed Paxo. His (Paxo’s) main contention being that the receipts were forgeries produced be inkjet technology. Well, all sorts use that technology to reproduce documents and save money and it does not necessary follow that they are forgeries. The BBC should produce those receipts in order that further investigation regarding authenticity be carried out if possible, but bearing in mind the need for the safety of those originally producing the receipts to remain anonymous, then further proof may be difficult in obtaining. Anyway, I believe that our impartial BBC will give Mr Godson’s “Right-wing think tank” the right of reply – what do you believe? I wasn't convinced that that the TV Licence fee is money well spent - it only encourages the BBC to be more "impartial".

[tired and emotional]

MPAC really are *jolly* good at getting people out to prebut and rebut and obfuscate when they are shown up as the jihadis they really are.

How *super* to have so many on this thread.

[Stuart]

Wendy Mann! (or israhel on BBC 5Live and infrequent poster at MPAC UK).

"now whats worse 1 million dead iraqis over and above those that would have died anyway"

Well Wendy, obviously you prefer Saddam's slaughter to that of the Islamic insurgents killing 70% of those killed in Iraq. The 1m figure is made up but if you want to blame 700,000 on Islamic Insurgents then go ahead.

"or an article that seeks to name and shame the individuals that have taken part in yet more deceit and lies against islam and muslims."

Yet more? When Dr Bari of MCB states that Britain is becoming like a Nazi state of the 1930's and then MPAC UK call for a witch-hunt against a small group of Sufi Muslims (who MPAC seem to have a general dislike for anyway) then can't you see how MPAC UK are fulfilling that prophecy by their Nazi-Like call for "names and addresses". "Ve vill find you!"

Wendy, we KNOW that hate literature is siold in Mosque Bookshops. It is only the scale that can be altered by the fake receipts. It changes the report percentage from 25% to 20%. Did you read about the suicide bomber glorification DVD bought in Bradford being investigated by the police. I will assume (knowing your posts VERY well) that you wouldn't be able to condemn that video as you would see it as part of legitimate resistance.

"it is not mpac that has been acting fraudulently but policy exchange"

Ah The Libel! Do you realise that the staement is libel? You accuse PE of being frauds when it is actually the researchers with the dodgy receipts who are frauds with PE being duped.

"and at what cost to the muslim community in the uk. maybe we should remember who the victims of this really are. innocent law abiding british muslims."

No, they are absolved completely. Its only radicalise, terror and hate supporting Muslims who are the targets (not victims).

[Stuart]

Wendy, why not let the posters here see what you wrote on MPAC UK:-

"wendy mann: Quote

maybe mainstream sufis who are ideologically not that distant from any other mainstream muslim and who are not part of the zionist-neo conservative bandwagon should disassociate themselves more vociferously from the likes of the sufi muslim council and those that served policy exchange in their recent deceits against islam and muslims in the uk.

it is not mpac that is doing a disservice to muslims and islam but those that have become zionists within the muslim community.

(zionists - a political grouping that pervert articles of faith for political and personal gain at the expense of truth)."

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/4246/35/#jreactions

Very interesting take on "Zionists". Its very similar to the things you wrote about Jews on 5Live.

[James Maskell]

I remember the Inigo Wilson-Lefty Lexicon incident. Some of the most exciting days I have spent posting on this site were on that issue.

[oxymoron]

Moral minority said: "corporates block most political websites."

With due respect* this is incorrect. Conservative Home is not blocked in my workplace for example.

*Note: I showed you due respect here, perhaps you could return the compliment next time.

[Moral minority]

Oxymoron, I called your name apt. That was respectful unless you don't like it. LOL!

[wendy mkann]

tired and emotional -

as you must realise whatjihad refers to is merely a person that is in a struggle with his or her faith. that jihad can take many forms - be it through education or through meditation or politics etc

a jihadi is nothing more than an individual who recognises that his or her faith is being undermined or under threat and therefore seeks to defend it.

islam does not allow 'offensive' pre-emptive war unlike the iraq war debacle. islam only allows defensive war, when it is under threat. islam does not allow 'suicide' or the targetting of females , children and elderly . one cannot seek to attack innocents and justify it in islam. in judaism it is acceptable to sacrifice ones life for the cause.

one should understand that there is a differnce between how some people who may call themselves muslims behave and the reality of the teaching within islam specifically the koran.

we dont call our boys in the armed forces 'suicide bombers' or 'suicide killers' and yet in essence that is what they are paid to do- die for their country , sacrifice their lives for the rest of us. it is a matter of perceptions and mindwashing of each society as to how you would view issues .

stuart -

policy exchange is long renowned for its neo conservative credentials, it appears the only people that dont recognise them as such are other neo conservatives.

a neo conservative would view themselves as being centrist politically and a tory would be viewed as well frankly a communist. ones perceptions of reality is very much dependent upon where you are standing and viewing it from.

[Joe James Broughton]

I didn't know that Richard Perle is a former Democrat.
On Wikipedia, it says his current party is (but I don't think that is correct), but he did work for a Democrat at the start.

He is rather an interesting character.

Also found this -

http://www.aei.org/scholars/filter.all,scholarID.49/scholar2.asp

[Sally Roberts]

He is indeed, Joe! Interesting web link - thank you!
It is interesting how sometimes people start out in politics in a very different party from the one they end up in. It just shows I think how our views mature over time. I am ashamed to say that when I was at school I used to go to "Young Liberals" meetings in the local pub (I never joined officially!) - mainly because there was a chap with a rather nice motorbike who used to give me lifts there and back!!! Thankfully after I left school I discovered Margaret Thatcher and never looked back. Of course this revelation will not surprise any of those posters who love to call me "The resident EUFanatic" or "Europhile Troll"!! ;-)

[Sally Roberts]

!Bear in mind that traditional Muslims view Sufi's as polyethists and aposatates. There is a long history of Muslim persecution of this particular sect"

I believe that is correct, Bexie, and from what I have learned about the Sufis I understand them to be a peace-loving and mystical sect with a great deal to teach the rest of the world about living in harmony! No wonder the "fundies" hate them so much!