Live blog of PMQs: The Prime Minister tries to control everything but can't run anything

Editor's verdict: "A good win for David Cameron.  With such an open goal expectations were very high - which could have made it difficult for the Conservative leader - but he was helped by Gordon Brown's attempt to play politics by suggesting that the Tory James review would have made things worse.  Great line from Cameron: Gordon Brown tries to control everything but can't run anything.  My overall conclusion: Trust in this Government won't be the only casualty of this sorry affair.  The public will lose faith in government full stop.  Libertarians can smile at that."

Not verbatim highlights:

12.29pm: David Heathcoat-Amory ends PMQs by saying that we need to have a generation of nuclear power stations in order to avoid the industralisation of the English landscape with wind turbines.  The Speaker fails to stop the huge noise from the Labour benches as he speaks.  Brown responds by saying that the Tories are divided on the environment.

12.13pm: It's "weird", David Cameron continues, that after what has happened the PM won't even stop and think.  It is now clear that this is a Prime Minister who tries to control everything but cannot run anything.  Brown replies by listing Labour achievements: We have run a very successful economy, he says.

12.12pm: David Cameron asks if it is time to stop and think about the Government's plans for ID cards?   Mr Brown replies by saying that most European nations have ID cards, and names advisers to David Cameron that allegedly support ID  cards.

12.10pm: David Cameron replies that on a day of such incompetence from Labour it's "pathetic" to try and blame the Opposition for anything.  The PM should be a big man and face up to his responsibilities.  Mr Brown repeats his apology.

12.06pm: David Cameron: If a junior official can have access to confidential data not once but twice there are systemic failures.  He goes on to list other failures at HMRC.  "This has been going on for years," he continues.  This is the Prime Minister's problem - he expanded its scope.  Does he accept any responsibility?  Gordon Brown responds by saying that the Tory James Review wanted to make deep cuts in the HMRC.

12.04pm: People are not worried, says David Cameron, they are angry.  Does the PM accept that there are systematic failures at HM Revenue & Customs?  The PM replies by saying that procedures were not followed.

12.02pm: Prime Minister "profoundly regrets" and "apologises" for loss of child benefit records loss in response to question from Labour MP.  Mr Brown says he has ordered a review across Whitehall of procedures and will give Information Commissioner the power to spot-check Government Departments.

We do not need to guess what David Cameron will ask the Prime Minister about today...

Comments

[Malcolm Dunn]

I thought the PM was not going to be at PMQ's.Is that incorrect?

[James Burdett]

The PM will take his punishment like a man apparantly.

[Deborah]

I hope Cameron will be there regardless - asking where Macavity is.

[David]

Did Gordon Brown really just try to blame the Conservatives?

[James Burdett]

"Did Gordon Brown really just try to blame the Conservatives?"

If he did then he is clutching at pretty short straws.

[Praguetory]

No Cabinet Minister should resign... G Brown Nov 21 2007

[Nigel R]

Did Gordon Brown really just try to blame the Conservatives?

No he didn't. He merely pointed out that if their proposal at the last election had been followed, the IMRC budget would have been cut further than it already has been - which is a fair enough point to make, surely, if Mr Cameron is blaming Brown's cuts for the current debacle?

[Simon R]

Brown was slaughtered. I felt really quite sorry for him. When he was reduced to reeling off the standard rot about 10 years of low interest rates etc. the sense of it all being over was palpable. He sounded like someone about to be carted off to the madhouse.

[Praguetory]

DC's "tries to control everything, can't run anything" was good. Gordon's understanding of internal control is risible.

To respond to repeated policy breaches/controls breakdown with the mantra that the procedures are in place but weren't followed would be laughed out of any office meeting.

People make mistakes - the systems that need to be in place are ones that prevent likely mishaps from turning into a national crisis.

[deborah]

"if Mr Cameron is blaming Brown's cuts for the current debacle?" - Nigel R

I didn't think Cameron was blaming the cuts - he's blaming the botched merger of Revenue and Customs and a systemic failure of basic data protection procedures.
Labour are peddling this as some sort of very unfortunate clerical error - just bad luck really.
Hopefully Cameron can continue to publicise other examples to show that this is not an isolated error but an indication of systemic failure

[Oscar Miller]

I thought Cameron was magnificent and got the substance and tone exactly right. Cameron has the bearing of a Prime Minister while Brown looks like a small scared man.

[Robert Reynolds]

I almost begin to pity the opposition in waiting. Almost...

[Jonathan Sheppard]

Podcast of PMQs available here:-

http://toryradio.podbus.com/pmqs21november2007.mp3

[HF]

David Heathcoat-Amory what a twerp.

[David]

What did DHA do?

[HF]

on a day when the focus should have been on the missing data, David Heathcoat-Amory tilts at windmills and gives Brown an open goal.

I hope this MP plans to stand down at the next election as he is clearly out of touch.

[Nadfan]

"David Heathcoat-Amory what a twerp."

Indeed.

[strapworld]

I thought Cameron missed an open goal. He let Brown off the hook.
He had a golden opportunity and fluffed it. Cable was quite brilliant and opened up yet another chapter for debate! From being on the defensive Brown was allowed to gain confidence.

The last question by Heathcote Amory was a total and complete disaster! Is he under threat in his constituency? God sake, it ws ridiculous. I thought the man was a serious MP! not any more. What stupidity.

Lets hope the Sunday Papers do a lot of digging and make more of this debacle, and throw more ammunition was Cameron to use and not waste as he did today.

[Patriot]

I thought Cameron did well but failed to demand a police and security services investigation into all the recent database leaks, apart from the apparent police investigation which is trying to recover the current dataset.

With three or four such major databases going missing over the past 4 months the default assumption MUST be that the security flaws across government are being used in a concerted data acquisition attempt. We must hope that it really is a coincidence, but it's too many losses of similar information in too short a time to leave to chance. This could be being mounted by an organised criminal organisation or by a "terror" organisation seeking to acquire the data to cause major systems failure and embarrassment, to obtain identities with which to create passports and legends for future illegal entrants to the country, or to generate substantial funding through fraud - much as the IRA generated funds through criminal activities in the 70's and 80's.

DC must focus on this possibility of deliberate and organised data capture, Brown will lean over backwards to avoid any police and security services investigation since it will draw even more attention to the dangers done by his government's neglect of our data security.

Brown's comment, made twice I recall at PMQ's, that there was no evidence of fraud was I suspect deliberately disingenous. You won't find evidence of fraud, or criminal or terrorist intent, if you don't look for it, and the fact that there isn't evidence of fraud yet doesn't mean that it isn't planned or in progress.

The announced PWC enquiry will only look at processes, and one has to question how critical they will be given that the governement is a billion pound client.

[Bruges Group NG]

A shame that some of our err....less telegenic and modern MPs managed to get a look in today at PMQs. A real Rogues Gallery dredged from somewhere in the 19th century- John Randall, Heathcoat Amory, Redwood, Robathan and Leigh.

It would have been hard to hand pick a bunch more unlikely to win over any lunchtime floating voters who tuned in. All we needed was an appearance by The Wintertons and we could have run a credible spoof episode of Star Trek.

(Nick W: "The Prime Minister will know that I am a longstanding and utterly pompous admirer of his......")

P.S: David Heathcoat Amory is an intelligent and thoughtful guy, but his performance today was frankly a disgrace.

Still much work to do in the Whips Office based on that half an hour.

[Patriot]

And yes, Heathcoat Amory should be sat on.

[Richard Weatherill]

David Heathcoat-Amory is an excellent MP. He is right about nuclear power, as he is about much else.

[Bruges Group NG]

@ Richard Weatherill

Heathcoat Amory may be an excellent MP, and I have followed his career closely since 1983 and was an admirer of his when he was at the Foreign Office, but I cannot imagine that his slightly barmy cameo on national TV today did much for our long term image as an electable Party.

John Major's comment about Sir Richard Body MP sprang to mind:

"I hear the sound of white coats flapping".

[William Norton]

Nigel R:He merely pointed out that if their proposal at the last election had been followed, the IMRC budget would have been cut further than it already has been - which is a fair enough point to make, surely, if Mr Cameron is blaming Brown's cuts for the current debacle?

Offhand I can't recall the precise details but the James Review savings in the HMRC remit focussed on three areas: duplication on policy between the Treasury and HMRC (i.e. chop Treasury civil servants hired under Brown); reducing support staff in the old Customs & Excise remit; using more modern methods of debt recovery on the tax collection side.

I wouldn't have thought any of these would have affected whether or not someone encrypts data on a disk or sends a package by registered delivery.

[NoSubsidies]

"David Heathcoat-Amory is an excellent MP. He is right about nuclear power, as he is about much else."

No the idea that nuclear is the only alternative to onshore wind and vice versa is lie promoted by both lobbies to get their grubby mits on our money

[treacle]

Since there is a joust between Cameron and Brown every week should the questions on subjects other than the one chosen by the Opposition leader never be asked at all?

That seems to be the daft logic of some of today's posters. The evening news will probably only carry the main story on the missing data so no problem there.

As for the people who make a date every week to watch Prime Minister's questions live - sorry you are not statistically significant and you need to step outside and get a life.

Heathcoat Amory may not be some posters favorite Tory MP, but he is right on nuclear power and he has a right to point out that, in Browns desparation to look Green, we could all shortly be sitting in the dark....

[Common Sense]

strapworld = obvious NuLab troll.

Get back in the bunker!

[Jack of Kent]

One irony here is that if a request was made to HMRC under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 for the name of the official involved, it would be likely to be refused on data protection grounds!

[Robbie]

This is very interesting. If you go to the BBC website below, there is a forum asking people what they think about the loss of the disks.

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=3839&edition=1&ttl=20071121140855

Now usually the comments on this site range about 50% saying Labour needs to go and 50% saying I remember the old Tory government blah blah blah (possibly every remark written by that moron Dennis Skinner). Anyway, it seems most are calling for Labours head!

Any further government announcements yesterday should be monitored very carefully. A good day to bury bad news, obviously!

[Patriot]

Heathcoat amory may well be right about nuclear power but he was niaive in the extreme to couple a question about nuclear power which would have been perfectly justified, with a NIMBY complaint about windmills - I'm not saying that folk don't have legitimate concerns about them, just that with today's hysteria about global warming it sounded so much like an own goal that I had to close my eyes and wince when it came out...

[Josh]

I happen to agree with Heath-Coat Amory's point, but I agree with those calling him a twerp because he could have asked his question in a way that didn't show up Cammy. Instead of launching into a blanket tirade on wind power, he could have put emphasis on more sensitive siting of wind farms, including offshore, and suggested a wind-nuclear balancing act to minimise defacement of the landscape. That would have made the essential point without having to go off the blue-green message.

[Robert Winterton]

A shame that some of our err....less telegenic and modern MPs managed to get a look in today at PMQs. A real Rogues Gallery dredged from somewhere in the 19th century- John Randall, Heathcoat Amory, Redwood, Robathan and Leigh.

It would have been hard to hand pick a bunch more unlikely to win over any lunchtime floating voters who tuned in. All we needed was an appearance by The Wintertons and we could have run a credible spoof episode of Star Trek.

(Nick W: "The Prime Minister will know that I am a longstanding and utterly pompous admirer of his......")

P.S: David Heathcoat Amory is an intelligent and thoughtful guy, but his performance today was frankly a disgrace.

Still much work to do in the Whips Office based on that half an hour.

I was wondering whether to bother to reply to such twaddle, but unlike you sir/madam I wouldn't hide behind a pseudonym when being derogatory about people who, I believe, deserve a little more respect. Cheap shots at experienced and sensible party figures tells us more about you than your rather immature comments.

[Michael Davidson]

Robbie, I think the BBC Have your Say has always been pretty anti-Labour since it started - or more accurately, anti-government. When we get into power, you'll notice that the forum will suddenly turn anti-Tory too.

It was a reasonable performance by Cameron, but I felt he could have stuck the knife in more and done a little better.

[Malcolm Dunn]

Nick Assinder at the BBC as always says that Cameron 'failed to land a lethal blow' and the Conservative benches were 'disappointed'.Which I suppose it is as good as it's going to get for Cameron from the BEEB.
For myself I thought Cameron did alright.Not brilliant but solid.
Brown on the other hand was pathetic. He had all morning to prepare for this and I think any normal person watching would conclude that in debate he's rubbish.
Whether he likes it or not the days of blaming past Conservative administrations are over.Too much has happened since 1997 for that.

[anyone but brown]

It's how it's portrayed on the evening news when people get in from work and turn on the TV that counts.

I think Cameron's hard-hitting soundbites will be replayed and will go down well with the millions of people who are, quite rightly, worried, angry, and disgusted at the catastrophic failing of this incompetent government to protect them from fraudsters.

[Editor]

As I tried to say in my verdict Malcolm, expectations were very high of Cameron today and it's always hard to exceed such high expectations. Cameron faced an open goal and he didn't shoot the ball over the crossbar.

[Malcolm Dunn]

I think you were right Tim. I wish the BBC were as objective.
The fact is David Cameron only has to ordinary to beat Brown who'se awful.
Sadly it's only people like us who watch PMQ's, the soundbites reported on the news will not convey how poor Gordon Brown actually is.

[Bruges Group NG]

@Robbie Winterton

Neither of the Winterton's could be reasonably described as "sensible" party figures.

Mrs W departed in absolute shame from the IDS Shadow Cabinet after some very silly (un-sensible)remarks which just reinforced our image as the Nasty Party. Have you forgotten ?

Mr W (or "Sir Nick") makes increasingly absurd and obsequious points to Labour ministers, as any regular reader of Hansard will know.

What part did both play in Mrs Thatcher's downfall in 1990 ?

I rest my case.

[HF]

Overall, DC probably did the right thing by landing the punches with quotable points for the media. The danger with this is that DC's attack becomes bad manners which it was not.

Brown lost his temper at the end which proves who won the argument.

I agree that the Whips need to do a better job with the MPs on our side. Some folk on here praise the Chief Whip but there is little sign of a guiding hand.

[PR]

I thought that Brown did much better than expected today, particularly given the ammunition available to the opposition - it was without question his best performance at PMQs to date, but I think a great deal of the rallying points for Labour were gifted by indiscipline within the Tories (Fabricant, Heathcote Amory). DC might have had more success by varying his lines of attack, since it's pretty clear GB had been well briefed on all the angles for the inevitable HMRC onslaught, and he's got a pretty tidy defence against Vince Cable by virtue of the ongoing uncertainty on policy and leadership within the Lib Dems. I would nonetheless call it a points victory for the Tories, but it could have been more decisive with a stronger and more astute showing from the Whips.

[Patriot]

Just lifted from a thread on the Guardian, no idea if the facts are correct but interesting and relevant if true.

""Applying for a first passport for my son last year, I sent my own and his birth certificate via the local post office, only to be told a month later that the consignment of passport applications and supporting documents had been stolen. The very apologetic post office manager said that theft of passports was now endemic, and he blamed the privatised courier service used to send passports from post to passport offices.

In 1999, the number of passports reported lost or stolen in the UK was 62,364. Since then, every year, the number has increased, often two-fold. The result is that last year in the UK a staggering 290,996 were reported lost or stolen.""

[Malcolm Dunn]

'it was without question his (Browns) best performance at PMQ's to date'-PR 16.16. Eh? I know I'm biased but did we really watch the same PMQs?

[PR]

Malcolm - I'm not saying he had a good performance, just a better one! Up to now, I don't recall a less confident performer at the dispatch box, but that wasn't so strongly in evidence today. The stutters didn't really emerge until later on (although there was an epic M-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-mister speaker about 20 minutes in). As I explained in my post, Brown was on well-rehearsed ground, and he wasn't taken off this foundation by any of DC's questions. Likewise with Cable's questions. On the face of it, Cable should dominate Brown on these issues with his economics background, but he's hamstrung by the inadequacies of his party on this.

[Traditional Tory]

A real Rogues Gallery dredged from somewhere in the 19th century- John Randall, Heathcoat Amory, Redwood, Robathan and Leigh.

May we take it that your Moniker stands for 'Bruges Group No Good'?

I know a fair few people in the Bruges Group, most of whom are not enamoured with the current drift of the Conservative Party.

You sound to me far more like a candidate for the Tory Reform Group.

[Robert Winterton]

@Robbie Winterton

Neither of the Winterton's could be reasonably described as "sensible" party figures.

Mrs W departed in absolute shame from the IDS Shadow Cabinet after some very silly (un-sensible)remarks which just reinforced our image as the Nasty Party. Have you forgotten ?

Mr W (or "Sir Nick") makes increasingly absurd and obsequious points to Labour ministers, as any regular reader of Hansard will know.

What part did both play in Mrs Thatcher's downfall in 1990 ?

I rest my case.

Sadly, it seems your total lack of knowledge of the events you refer to says it all! If you actually knew anything you would know that your last remark was so far away from the truth it beggars belief. With regard to the circumstances to the event re Mrs W, I was there.Re Mr W. and obsequious remarks - please expand and justify!
Finally, it is the electors who decide is sensible and I think they know a little more than some Hansard reading individual who hides his real name and, I suspect, has given no service to the public to the tune of a combined 60 years.

[Traditional Tory]

some Hansard reading individual who hides his real name

Unfortunatly, Robert, these anoraks go with the current territory of 'David Cameron's Conservatives', an organisation which many of us who have worked for the old party for years find profoundly repellent.

If our anonymous chum really is a member of the Bruges Group I hope he doesn't attend meetings.

If he does, he is likely to end up feeling like the man who has a problem even his best friends won't tell him about.

[Northernhousewife]

Cameron probably did not live up to expectations today. That is because expectations were too high. He had a difficult job at PMQs. The Andrew Neil/Daily Politics cautioned that he wouldhave to tread carefully. It is easy to conclude that he should have gone for The Kill - but he wasn't going to get it. They had already apologised and set up the usual review and there is no smoking gun leading directly to a minister. Everything else was going to amount to YOU LOT ARE PANTS, AS USUAL.
The big problem for him [bigger than the bank bench twit] was that any overkill on his part might have come across [or been deliberately construed] as taking advantage of the public's woes. Remember The Sun lecturing on the behaviour of Tory MPs at PMs. Better to be thought of has having missed an opportunity than have the current wave of public hostility directed where it does not belong - at us.

[Oscar Miller]

I agree with Northernhousewife. But really this is a question of adapting expectations. It's us lot who need to be more subtle in our expectations. This was not the day for killer blows at PMQs. Cameron got it exactly right. The nation is not bothered who won PMQs. They're worried and furious at systemic failures at HMRC - it was right to focus on that. And having just heard the coverage on R4s PM DC came across as by far the superior man.

[Northernhousewife]

Yes Oscar.
It was interesting hearing the round up after PMQS. Nick Robinson did his - the Labour back benchers were pleased it wasn't a disaster - thing. But and it's a big BUT -Wendy Alexander said LAB MPs were very rattled. They were worried about calls from their own constituants and about their OWN personal exposure. The emails coming in were all very negative.
People like Nick Robinson prattle on about the Westminster village, and he has a point that things don't always resonate outside. But sometimes it is not that they are not felt, but felt in a different way.
Sometimes you have to stay away from the cheap points if you are going to look like a Govt and we may have to do more of it in future.

[Paul]

25 milion worried people that have had their identity stolen due to government incompetence and this is what the Labour MP for Broxtowe has to say about it.
Maybe it will be 'enjoyable' when this smug idiot gets his P45 in a couple of years.

'I’ve retired from commenting on the public impact of PMQs as we all see what we want, but the unanimous view on the Labour benches was that it had been a surprisingly enjoyable session. What the public thinks depends on how it’s broadcast.

by Nick Palmer MP November 21st, 2007 at 1:26 pm

[Paul]

25 milion worried people that have had their identity stolen due to government incompetence and this is what the Labour MP for Broxtowe has to say about it.
Maybe it will be 'enjoyable' when this smug idiot gets his P45 in a couple of years.

'I’ve retired from commenting on the public impact of PMQs as we all see what we want, but the unanimous view on the Labour benches was that it had been a surprisingly enjoyable session. What the public thinks depends on how it’s broadcast.

by Nick Palmer MP November 21st, 2007 at 1:26 pm

[Curly]

David Heathcoat Amory - disappointing.

There was certainly sufficient hot air wafting around the House during his question to propel his arms in a wide circular motion, but somehow they remained doggedly still.

[Northernhousewife]

Someone has put "The missing discs" on ebay!
Darling will be coppering up at the B of E and placing a bid.
Last time reported, the bid was 99p. Perhaps that is all there is left.

[Northernhousewife]

Perhaps we should put Heathcoat Amory on ebay?

[David]

"I know a fair few people in the Bruges Group, most of whom are not enamoured with the current drift of the Conservative Party."

Tough. They don't own the party. FPTP parties tend towards broad coalitions of thought, with differing wings dominant at different times depending on the prevalent views of the electorate.

[Patriot]

And so the truth begins to surface.....from the BBC news website:

""Life inside the beleaguered HMRC

Morale within the department is poor, employees complain. Former employees of under-fire HM Revenue and Customs service have contacted the BBC News website to describe life inside its offices.

Speaking anonymously - as they have signed the Official Secrets Act - two workers who recently left HMRC - have told the BBC News website that they were not surprised to hear of the blunder.

Worker A, who left after more than 10 years' service, said: "I wasn't surprised in the least when I heard the news.

"The problems with Child Benefit are only the tip of the iceberg.

"Morale is non-existent. Mistakes happen continuously. Rooms full of unopened post are not uncommon."

"Arbitrary, individual hourly targets meant that people cut corners," he added. "It doesn't matter if you make mistakes because you won't be held accountable""

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7104395.stm

Sky are reporting that HMRC employees have been contacting Sky anonymously in their hundreds to tell similar stories.

Breathtaking in it's picture of the squalid conditions for workers at the bottom of today's government isn't it? This in no way mitigates the appalling lack of data security, but it does begin to indicate that superimposed on top of the truly appalling systemic security problems are a further layer of almost Dickensian work conditions.

A disaster waiting to happen, and this latest breach is almost certainly only the tip of the iceberg.

I have just heard that the junior employee who downloaded the data has resigned. It will be interesting to see if he turns up with a contract for his story in the media. If he does I look forward to reading it....

[Simon Robinson]

I think the BBC's verdict can be pretty much ignored unless anyone wants a giggle. Nick Assinder would probably have found some way to accuse Cameron of 'failing to land a lethal blow' if Gordon Brown had dropped dead.

It was a well judged performance from Cameron, and inspite of the BBC's lunchtime news broadcast leaving out his best soundbite (controlling vs. running) he still came out of it far and away the winner.

On the negative side, if Fabricant does insist on wearing that dead animal on his head, perhaps someone should ensure he isn't sitting in shot when Cameron is speaking. He looks like Worzel Gummidge.

[Oscar Miller]

Sometimes you have to stay away from the cheap points if you are going to look like a Govt and we may have to do more of it in future.

Posted by: Northernhousewife | November 21, 2007 at 17:56

Agree absolutely. The job will increasingly be to present as a credible government in waiting while Brown goes down the pan. That day now looks nearer than ever.

[Tanuki]

People who have been putting up with a decade of my berating New Labour's entrenched 'managerialist' approach to the public-sector are only now coming to realise the truth of what I've been getting at.

The smell of "I told you so" hangs heavy in the air as the blinkers are at last lifted from their eyes.

We're all deeply horrified at the revelation that some 25-million people are in receipt of 'state' benefits at the taxpayer's expense.

Now is the time for us small-government Conservatives to push the "less government is good government" line and seek to roll back the State in all its pervasive intrusiveness.

[Terry]

I did not watch PMQ but I saw extracts on the BBC News, which I guess is all most people see. Brown had an impossible job trying to defend the indefensible. Cameron came over well and seemed to reflect the anger and exasperation of the voters.
Even the Beeb seemed dubious of Brown's attempt to tar the Tories by claiming that the Tories would have tried to save more money by efficiencies in the HMRC which would, he claimed, have led to even weaker controls. Brown has done this before: he regards the spending of public money as a virtue in itself. It's perfectly possible to streamline operations, concentrate on the important matters and still save money. He needs to look at outcomes not the mere spending of money. We should not let him get away with this.

[Matt Wright]

Agree with Terry. I was out today at various meetings and I got back and my wife had just switched on the evening news. The main item was a crushing destruction of Brown (yet again) by Cameron. My wife, usually very neutral, said she thought Brown was almost finished now and Labour were in very deep trouble. Her views are very close to what the views of the ordinary viewer are going to be and certainly I am getting this on the doors,

Matt

[John Broughton]

I've only just watched PMQs via Sky Plus. Noticeable that Brown had to keep contact with the Despatch box in order to prevent the shaking hand syndrome!

No governement can withstand the disasters bessetting this one. The only question is do we press home the advantage now or wait till Brown & Co are totally discredited.

Problem is when Clegg wins (LD leadership) we may just lose some LD votes; the alternative (and I think more probable) is that Nu Lab will lose votes to Clegg meaning that he may yet clind on to Hallam.

However, as someone who knows Sheffield Hallam well, it is a mystery how we ever lost an obvious Conservative constituency.

Perhaps a core vote strategy is more needed now than ever!

[A H Matlock]

David Heathcoat-Amory's question was perfectly valid and in order. He is a fine Parliamentarian and a loyal Conservative. His timing was unfortunate in that it gave desperate Labour MPs something to cling onto at the end of what was a brutal session of PMQs for them, but nobody should berate him for putting it.

[Northernhousewife]

Someone has rightly pointed out on Sky that the Govt has ordered an enquiry to ensure that the details of the 25 million exposed etc... never never happen again....

However it can only happen again ONCE on a mathmatical basis - as there are only 35 million people left in the country who have not had their details exposed.

[Northernhousewife]

On a serious note,one of my relatives who works against criminal fraud informed me of a new phenomenon. Criminals now advertise on the Net for help on a "co-operative" basis.
If you can offer them skills/info you can join the racquet and be paid for your services. People who can provide info can be deliberately targeted to join.

Fighteningly simple.

Goes hand in hand with Patriots post.

[Serf]

Brown's one consistent area of attack is "The Tories are divided". This worked well in the early days of Labour, but looks rather pathetic today, and we can take advantage of his lack of creativity.

"and names advisers to David Cameron that allegedly support ID cards."

.....Unlike the Prime Minister, we in the Conservative Party are happy to listen to different points of view. After all that is what demnocracy is all about......

By using such an approach, we can once again highlight Brown's Stalinist tendencies, without being "nasty old Tories".

[Patriot]

Interesting - from Computer Weekly posted November 15th.

""600 Capgemini staff to go after HMRC contract restructuring

Capgemini plans to axe up 600 jobs after the restructure of its IT outsourcing contract with HM Revenue & Customs last week.

Staff have been told of the cuts this week, which would equate to around a fifth of the Capgemini staff working on the Aspire IT contract at HMRC.

Although a three year extension of the contract is expected to ultimately make more cash for Capgemini, a restructure of the work will mean less bodies are needed on the ground to manage the deal.

HMRC is expected to make savings of up £80m a year from the restructure. It is not commenting on the job losses.""

[Bruges Group NG]

Robert Winterton

I was originally attempting to make a serious point in a light hearted way, no offence was meant against people whom I gather are members of your family.

You state that you 'were there' at the time Ann Winterton was sacked from the Shadow Cabinet for making ill judged remarks. I am sure that you would agree that they were not sensible, and set OUR Party at a time when we were already about as popular as a rat sandwich.

I thought the Winterton's equivocations during the Thatcher/Heseltine debacle were a matter of public record, and as a long standing party member I must confess that this has clouded my views on both of them ever since.

Of course, we will never know for sure what took place in the privacy of the polling booth in 1990, but Sir Nick was a 'disapointed man' at this stage, having been an MP for nearly 20 years.

If you are now stating that both Winterton's voted for Thatcher in the first ballot, I accept your word and apologise.

[Votedave]

First thing this morning I checked the news headlines on Teletext, as I do before I go to work.

ITV was showing as their top story; "Tories renew missing records attack."
BBC's interpretation was "Government challenges data claims (by the Tories)"

Hmm...

[arhiderrr]

Nice article