A thought for Guy Fawkes Day

This from John Redwood's blog:

"On November 5th we remember that terrorism in the name of religion is not a new problem.  We should also remember how this plot was foiled. It was not intercepted through the issue of ID cards. The police or army did not spot the plotters carrying huge barrels of gunpowder into a cellar. It was not prevented by a cordon of oak or iron - today’s concrete and steel - around the Palace of Westminster.  The murderers were prevented from killing the Parliament and government of James I by intelligence picking up a family tip off."

Comments

[John Ledbury, Kings Lynn]

It's far more important than that. The Plot was the last attempt by a Catholic aristocracy to impose absolutist government in these isles. Today we have unelected, non representative government imposed upon us by the European Commission exactly in the manner of a 17th century catholic absolute monarch. The EU has succeeded where Guy Fawkes failed. We should put effigies of commissioners on our bonfires.

[Raz]

"Today we have unelected, non representative government imposed upon us by the European Commission exactly in the manner of a 17th century catholic absolute monarch."

Yes, that's right, John, exactly like that.

[englandism]

If the BBC had been around at the time then Fawkes would have been described as a freedom fighter as part of an insurgency caused directly by the prosecution of illegal wars against the Holy Roman Empire and the occupation of Ireland.

The Guardian would be blogging with pieces by the Spanish Inquisition ranting about how the English have only themselves to blame and that Papal Law should be imposed without further delay.

'The murderers were prevented from killing the Parliament and government of James I by intelligence picking up a family tip off.'

Mrs Fawkes, interviewed by Channel 4 news:

'He was always such a quiet lad and was studying to go into the priesthood and only went to those Inquisition training camps to visit relatives.'

[Alex Swanson]

The Gunpowder plot was not terrorism: it was an attempted coup, something quite different.

[James Mawdsley]

When the government of the day wrote into law that any priest who celebrated Holy Mass would face the death penalty; and any faithful Catholics attending the Mass would be imprisoned/fined/killed too; then what reaction did we see from the Catholic population?

Many were silent. Many were heroic, even martyrs. A handful turned to extra-judicial violence. So John Ledbury, your slant on Catholics is dismaying--you sound like a smart man arguing on bad facts. It is well worth looking into what the Tudor governments were doing to those who held the faith of their forefathers, and how the overwhelming majority of these Catholics behaved [cowardice or heroism, both very human...but terrorism was routinely the practice of the government].

Anyway, there's an attractive theory that William Cecil was behind the gunpowder plot...but I admit I am biased on that one.

[Irish Observer]

The poisonous bile spouted by the dark recesses of English nationalism is revolting. Guy Fawkes is by no means revered in Ireland but I'm sure the history of my island would have been that much less bloody had he succeeded.

[Guido Fawkes]

I only have to be lucky once.

The fight for freedom continues...

[Sean Fear]

The only man to enter Parliament with honest intentions.

[Comstock]

"I only have to be lucky once."

I hope you didn't realise that was a post Brighton bomb IRA quote, Guido....

"The only man to enter Parliament with honest intentions."

LOL @ Sean. What faith you have in your party :D

[Patsy Sergeant]

Our convent was evacuated during the war to one of the places that the conspirators met at, when apparently discussing the Plot, so we learned about it early - I was in the junior school then, and to me it started a lifelong interest in history, but I certainly wasn't otherwise, indoctrinated!

Sppot on, Englandism @ 11.24 - I just wish that the BBC could be deluged by comments like yours. Would it make the privileged programme-makers, interviewers and reporters any less blinkered and more truthful in their output? Sadly I don't think so!!

[englandism]

'Guy Fawkes is by no means revered in Ireland but I'm sure the history of my island would have been that much less bloody had he succeeded.'

Posted by: Irish Observer

Hello. I am pleased to confirm that in 1605 the BBC was still in its infancy and had yet to evolve the corporate view in the context of terrorism (2007) that we have only ourselves to blame.

I can also confirm that the Spanish Inquisition did not operate gunpowder barrel focused training seminars or release dodgy videos of Guy Fawkes to Al Jazeera.

May I also draw your attention to Cromwell, the curse of Ireland, who actually succeeded in killing the king unlike Guido Fawkes.

Killing the king actually made things far, far, worse in Ireland via Cromwell, as you will know.

[Elaib]

Stuart, not Tudor, the Tudors had been out ofthye picture for over 50 years by then.
Anybody seen Lord Cranborne today?

[Sean Fear]

It's a very old joke, Comstock, but one that always makes me chuckle.

[Mise eirinnach]

Actually, recent histriography suggests Cromwell's impact was exaggerated by Catholic propagandists 50 years after the event. But when I advanced this theory with my mother she neraly threw me out of the house. Certainly it is difficult to see, as many English do, cromwell as any sort of hereo.

[englandism]

'Stuart, not Tudor, the Tudors had been out ofthye picture for over 50 years by then.'

Yes. The Welsh and Scottish dynasties of England. Yes, and I know that the current dynasty is not really called Windsor.

'Certainly it is difficult to see, as many English do, cromwell as any sort of hereo.'

Only in the sense of someone of relatively humble origins rising to the top and scuppering the divine right of kings.

His activities in Ireland were pretty sadistic.

He also banned Christmas but on the plus side he invaded and conquered Scotland and for that I would buy him a pint of mead. Yes I know that ale had supplanted mead by then.

[Graeme Archer]

englandism @ 11.24: Mrs Fawkes, interviewed by Channel 4 news:

'He was always such a quiet lad and was studying to go into the priesthood and only went to those Inquisition training camps to visit relatives.'

Thanks for that - you've just made me snort coffee up through my nose and out onto the screen of the laptop, in full view of the shocked matrons of E8. Very, very funny and ohmygod 100% accurate.

Time for some liberal-Toryism to rebalance the discussion (clears throat): this guy Fawkes was a Catholic? I thought it was, like, about fireworks or something.

[Moral minority]

Ron Paul, the anti-war Republican Presidential candidate, is using today for his major fundraising drive. He is the only candidate, to paraphrase Sean Fear, running for White House with honourable intentions. In the last few hours, Ron Paul has raised literally millions of dollars of online at ronpaul2008.com. Rudy Ghouliani will be not be pleased!

[Malcolm Dunn]

It was, like about fireworks or something Graeme. Don't worry about it mate, it was like, in the olden times after all.
Enjoy your sparklers tomorrow!

[Tanuki]

In the 16th century it was the catholics. In the early-21st century it's the mohammedans... will we never be free from the scourge of 'faith-based' terrorism?

[Adam in London]

Let's clear up a few historical inaccuracies here.

1) 1605 was not the last time that an absolutist monarchy was planned for Britain. That 'honour' more reasonably goes to to James II/VII 75 years later.

2) Guy Fawkes wasn't a fanatic, he was a hired hand and explosives expert hired by the plotters because of his experience in the wars in the Netherlands.

3) Even if they had blown up Parliament it's doubtful the plotters would have succeeded. They were a bunch of minor Northamptonshire and Warwickshire gentry whose plan centred on getting hold of James I/VI's daughter Princess Elizabeth and raising her to the throne as a Catholic monarch. However, Prince Charles (the future Charles I) would still have been alive and with a better claim to the throne.

4) Gunpowder was a strictly controlled substance in 1605. It's a very bold assumption that Sir Robert Cecil (the King's Secretary) didn't know what was going on and wasn't allowing the plot to succeed to see how far they would take it.

[Don Hoyle]

A bit after the event, now, but there was a very interesting programme on ITV4 last night, recreating a House of Lords as it was in the days of the Gunpowder Plot and actually blowing up the place using 36 real barrels of gunpowder.

The post mortem conclusions were that no-one would have survived the explosion and that, had the HofL really been blown up, the plot would not have succeeded, anyway. What would have been worse (well, for the RC population, anyway) was that there may well have been a backlash against Catholics and, as they didn't really b*gger about in those days, there would have been anti-Catholic genocide on a frightful scale.