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Passing Leftie, can you cite the cases of anti-Scottish rhetoric that is "truely hateful"?

Is wanting equality for all the nations in the UK hateful in itself?

How exactly is Scotland and ‘unhistorical region’? I've never heard anything so insulting in my life! The independent sovereign nation state of Scotland is one of the oldest states in Europe. Much more time has been spent as an independent nation than has been submerged in the Union.

No one referred to Scotland specifically. I think the poster was referring to a the EU's regionalisation of the UK into unhistorical regions. Scotland is probably the only one that is historical.

Wales, NI and all the English regions are not.

On and on and on. This is a disgrace I don't believe either side will ever convince the other. I am starting to believe there is more english nationalism than scottish nationalism (having the one was bad enough) How about we take a middle bit of the country and stick both together, make them stay within the boundaries and leave the rest of us in peace. There are far more important events needing to be attended to than wasting energy on this old argument - don't you know the rest of the country has moved into the 21st century? What will you do when we are all 'european' and no longer British? Brown will have slipped all the important items passed you while you argue about nothing. Get with it, demand more attention towards a referendum over this new 'Lisbon Treaty' before our country is lost forever.

"Passing Leftie, can you cite the cases of anti-Scottish rhetoric that is "truely hateful"?

Is wanting equality for all the nations in the UK hateful in itself?"

You just can't and won't see it will you?
Some people do exactly that when they take one part of the UK and use it as a whipping boy for all their angst and prejudice, if they were being fair and honest about the debate they say they want, how about taking the whole UK and breaking it down fairly to include ALL the area's which are deemed to be benefiting more than others? How about mentioning Northern Ireland or the North of England also citing how much revenue the Treasury gains from these area's in return? Not as much fun as Scotland bashing when its a Scot who is PM is it, I can be very critical of Gordon Brown the politician over the inequality of the WLQ, but I would never use the argument that he is English, Welsh, Scottish or even Irish?

Passing leftie, some will try and rewrite history ignoring the major contribution that oil played from the 70's to the present day in the UK's economy. There is a real and valid reason why Mrs Thatcher and others feared the rise of Scottish nationalism back in the 70's and it is solely to do with the finding of oil in Scottish waters.
Would the country have been able to get where it is today without the massive oil revenues back in the 80's - probably - but the road would have been longer and harder. Would Scotland be denigrated in the way it is by some on this site if we had gone independent taking our share of the this revenue with us - probably not.

Just a few points, 1) Just recently Gordon Brown had to double the tax on oil companies to fill yet another black hole in his accounts.
2)Many of the Oil companies have spread out their operations throughout the UK for various reasons (ie. oil refineries), BUT the offshore headquarters of most are situated in Aberdeen for a very good reason.
3)Oil revenue is not the only big earner from Scotland for the UK treasury in recent years, nor is it the only valuable natural resource held there. But that point is never mentioned, because it does not fit with the arguments poised by some who wish to make this debate into a distasteful attack on one particular part of the UK.
I really hate this type of debate on ConHom and usually tend to avoid these threads now because they always result in some pretty unsavoury comments about Scotland, which are undeserved with dodgy facts abounding. I sometimes wonder what would happen if another part of the UK was treated in this way on sites like this?

Scotty said “You just can't and won't see it will you?”

Can’t see it. That’s why I asked passing leftie for an example and he (and you) has not been able to do so.

“…if they were being fair and honest about the debate they say they want, how about taking the whole UK and breaking it down fairly to include ALL the area's which are deemed to be benefiting more than others?”

OK, look at PESA 2007*. You will see that Scotland received more money than EVERY SINGLE ENGLISH AND WELSH region in 2005/6 and 2006/7. NI received the most and I’m sure we can all understand why. I, and many others, cannot see why the UK’s third richest region gets the second largest handout.

“Not as much fun as Scotland bashing when its a Scot who is PM is it, I can be very critical of Gordon Brown the politician over the inequality of the WLQ, but I would never use the argument that he is English, Welsh, Scottish or even Irish?”

Neither would I and I’ve not seen anyone else do this. Brown has no mandate nor moral authority to rule on 85% of his government’s legislation**. He is not responsible to any electorate, English or Scottish, for vast tracts of Government legislation. These areas include Health, education, housing and transport… the main planks of his focus for “Britain”.

Is it because he is Scottish ? No! Is it because he has a Scottish seat? Yes, this is what the WLQ is all about!

“…some will try and rewrite history ignoring the major contribution that oil played …others feared the rise of Scottish nationalism”

If Scotland is part of the UK it is UK oil. You can use oil in a debate on Scottish independence but not on one regarding the Barnett Formula. The latter part (fearing nationalism) is the only reason I can see why Scotland is given such an elevated fiscal and democratic position.

“I really hate this type of debate …they always result in some pretty unsavoury comments about Scotland …with dodgy facts abounding.”

Where? Please state exact comments and not inference. I have backed up every fact stated above, please do the same.

“I sometimes wonder what would happen if another part of the UK was treated in this way on sites like this?”
Treated like what? Do you mean being asked to account why they are treated so generously?

* http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/economic_data_and_tools/finance_spending_statistics/pes_publications/pespub_pesa07.cfm

** http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Gtgl1/GuideToGovernment/DevolvedAndLocalGovernment/DG_4003257

If Scott was referring to my comment on unhistorical regions, I would like to say that I said that separatism was the first step in breaking up nations. In time, given the chance, they will attempt to break Scotland up further. They may retain some historical regions (such as Scotland) for a time, to ease in their new administration, mirroring the Normans' approach to administration in England after 1066.

Scotty

On The Scotsman boards, there is a resentful clique (albeit a minority) who recite the catalogue of English iniquities inflicted upon Scotland through the ages, sprinkled with things like 'bought & sold for English gold' and 'the butcher's apron' (Union flag). Then such posters get all uptight with self-righteous indignation when someone steers them onto viewing a Daily Telegraph board with a few irate comments. "Racism!" is the cry. Neither this nor your somewhat more level & restrained thoughts on the subject will deter me from whingeing about the current unsatisfactory state of affairs.

The fact is that the Union has been disrupted. I am an instinctive Unionist having been born and raised in Britain. I knew lots of people from other parts of Britain and even married one from Glasgow. Since those days, politicians have changed my primary nationality from British to English. Unless anyone can see a practicable way of restoring the Union, I want my newfound nation to be properly recognised, with its own government. Parts of this nation have additional central government funds distributed to them, in recognition of special needs. That is how it should be in a cohesive, mutually supporting community. I do not regard devolution as compatible with that principle, as we are no longer cohesive and would therefore like to see fiscal autonomy for the constituent nations/principality/province of the former UK. Then it will no longer be of relevance to me as to what those other areas do with their money. Scotland at least is economically capable of looking after itself. The other two would face difficult choices.

Scottishness is not a basis of complaint. That George Galloway is a Scot holding an English seat is wholly unexceptionable (well, as regards his nationality, anyway!),

That someone elected in a constituency in Scotland (or Wales or NI, for that matter) should be governing my nation is objectionable.

Given the fact of devolution, can someone tell me why there are still Secretaries of State for Scotland, Wales and NI?

Given that there are such S-of-Ss, why is it regarded as necessary for direct representation by the devolved administrations at the British-Irish Council, particularly when international relations are a reserved UK matter?

Until the inequities and anomalies are properly sorted in some way, this topic will continue to stoke such heated debate.

Ali cat, the arguments will "go on and on and on" until England is granted what has been granted to Scotland and Wales.

Labour has already irreparably broken “Britain”. We now need to save England which means there is no more important issue because... since 1998 what do we have left?

Surely the “disgrace” is the fact some believe England is undeserving. I want equality, nothing less will do. Is this a disgrace?

Ali Cat,

Why do you presume that some of us are focused on WLQ to the exclusion of the EU problem?

See you at the Pro Referendum Rally Saturday, maybe?

Ken, maybe we should put some of the usual suspects of both the Scotsman and Telegraph threads on an island off Shetland for a weekend of team building and bonding?

Scotty | October 26, 14:48

Why inflict them on Shetland? ( I have a soft spot for the place, having lived there a couple of years in the'80s)

I have to say that The Scotsman boards have eased off somewhat of late and are consequently much less fun! In the run-up to the May elections, I learnt ever such a lot about the grievances, right through from the Darien Venture to poll tax. Unionists and moderate Nationalists are now much more in evidence and the warfare is much more of an internecine nature.

Ken, I did wonder about an uninhibeted island with a good bird population to drown out the noise.
The May elections campaign was one of the most heated I can remember in Scotland, and that includes the Thatcher years!
We almost had a punch up between Labour and the SNP on a busy Saturday in one town in the Central belt (they were oblivious to the camera filming it), just to give you a flavour of what the rest of us had to put up with.
By the way, I would be very vocal at putting down any nasty nationalistic rhetoric up here if I heard it. But to be honest, the only time I ever hear a moan about the English is when they are playing footie or Rugby against us, especially if they are winning. Its usually the commentators that come in for the criticism rather than the players though...
Most people are much more relaxed, you genuinely tend to find that being positive about Scotland usually does not involve being negative about anyone else these days, something I applaud.

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