The State of Gordon Brown's Economy

We're at the press conference now, it's about to start. In the meantime click here to read the full speech.

David Cameron is pictured above with key members of his economic team: George Osborne and Alan Duncan.

2.45pm: Highlights from the speech:

Questions of regulation and transparency: "This crisis raises the question of whether those safeguards were strong enough.  Should the Government have required more transparency from banks using new financial vehicles to finance their borrowing?  For instance, should we request the same capital reserves that are required for on balance sheet lending?"

Britain plc is in poor shape: "First, our public finances are in poor condition.  Our deficit, at £35 billion, is the highest in Western Europe, leaving fiscal policy with little room for manoeuvre if the financial crisis leads to wider consequences in the real economy.  What’s more, as the Institute for Fiscal Studies have warned, UK tax revenues are unusually dependent on financial services and the City, through corporation tax, stamp duty and taxes on City bonuses. Together these account for more than 10 per cent of total tax revenues.  Second, the average Brit is more than twice as indebted as the average European. Personal debt in the UK as a proportion of income has risen from 105% in 1997 to 164% in 2006 - the highest ever recorded and the highest in the developed world.  Third, house prices have trebled over the last decade in the UK – an increase faster than for any other European country apart from Ireland.  These facts underpin my decision to put stability at the heart of Conservative economic policy - because the security of people’s jobs and mortgages must be our number one economic priority."

The need to improve oversight of monetary and fiscal policy: "In terms of monetary policy, giving independence to the Bank of England was an idea whose time had come.  We will not just maintain this independence, but enhance it.  We will reform the way experts are appointment to the Monetary Policy Committee.  No longer should appointments be made by the Chancellor or his coterie, without any check or confirmation.  But there is little point in strengthening monetary stability if it can be undermined by poor management of the public finances.  So when it comes to fiscal policy – tax and spending – the Conservative position is strong and clear. We support the Government’s spending plans, because they have adopted our approach of sharing the proceeds of growth, at least over the next few years. But this is not enough to entrench stability. We will introduce independent scrutiny and judgement of the fiscal rules, so they have real bite."

The scale of the debt problem: "This Government has presided over a huge expansion of public and private debt without showing awareness of the risks involved.  Under Labour our economic growth has been built on a mountain of debt. And as any family with debts knows, higher debt makes us more vulnerable to the unexpected.  Alan Greenspan himself, recently appointed by Gordon Brown as his economic adviser, made exactly this point this morning when he said that “Britain is more exposed” than the United States.  In short, the increases in debt in the UK economy – personal, corporate, and Governmental – have added a new risk to economic stability."

What Conservatives propose on debt: "We have called for greater transparency, and for lenders to be allowed to talk to each other about a borrowers’ credit history.  For instance, instead of just notifying each other once a loan has gone wrong, they should be able to share information on how much someone has borrowed in total. This wouldn’t require new regulation – in fact it is regulation that stops banks sharing this information now.  Banks should be more transparent with their customers too, explaining more clearly the costs of any borrowing. We should also consider preventing banks from raising credit limits without consent.  Finally, I believe that we need to strengthen the sense of responsibility that banks and other lenders have towards their customers. Believing in a liberal credit market is not enough. Banks have a responsibility to lend responsibly, and the Government has a responsibility to remind them of that duty when their lending gets out of hand."

Editor's comment: "Contrary to what some comment-ers have already said on this thread I think David Cameron got the speech right today.  ITV News asked the first question and suggested that Mr Cameron might be scaremongering.  That Labour suggestion - taken up by The Mirror earlier - won't get legs but could have done if the Conservative leader had been stronger.  There may be a time for stronger words but not today when the retail bank customers are quite so jittery.  The Tory leadership cannot be accused of opportunism here, either.  As George Osborne pointed out in the Q&A, Lord Griffiths was commissioned to write a report on debt by the Conservatives three years ago.  George Osborne has held a debt summit and one of the six themes of Iain Duncan Smith's social justice report was Britain's one trillion pound debt mountain."

We'll post later on the party's scheduled announcement of the day: 'Fair play For Women's Pay'.

Comments

[oldtoryinsingapore]

This is it?

Can you imagine such a weak response from Labour on Black Wed?

I mean, to preface his remarks with comments on equal pay?????

It is as if DC is Lucy with the football, every time I think he will change his spots and actually fight to win, he snatches the ball away.

Is this really his attack?

My friends in Singapore are roughly divided into two classes.

1) Tory voters who are disquested with DC and won't bother to vote.
2) Former NuLab voters who are disquested with Labour (or more accurately, having lived in Singapore for a few years, becomes less infatuated with high taxes) but see now reason to vote for Tories!

really really quite hopeless.

[Tony Makara]

Excellent to see David Cameron attacking Labour's debt culture. I'm particularly pleased to see that David Cameron will rein in government borrowing. This is an area often unseen by the public and more must be done to expose Labour's folly.

[Scotty]

Good speech which I think hit the right note.
Have noted a change of mood over the last few days in the way that the media are covering this whole crisis, there is a real emphasis on Brown's record and how that will impact on a possible economic downturn.

[R.Rowan]

An open goal kicked into touch,we need a new striker.

[Malcolm Dunn]

Not hard hitting enough. Not sure why DC chose to ignore the fact that the savings ratio has fellen to its lowest level ever,that pension provision is running at about half the levels of 1997 and that personal debt in Britain is far higher per head than amongst ANY of our major competitors.
All of this occured during Brown's tenure as Chancellor and all have been caused directly by policies he enacted.

[EML]

This isn't some sort of economic crisis with a three-day week just round the corner. What would be the point in going in full steam? It is a perfectly reasonable response. The time to really stick the knife in will be when the problems start to affect more than a handful of people.

[Mike Thomas (215cu)]

Absolutely EML,

A bank with an unusual business model has come unstuck.

That is all.

However, this is a good time to start to question whether high levels of personal debt and lenders with 'unusual' business models is a good thing or not?

That is all.

No point getting the rabid attack dogs out, best wait until things really take a turn for the worst.

[Scotty]

I am prepared to have my mind changed on this, but here is my gut reaction to the way Cameron handled the crisis in his speech. I should add that I was a bit concerned about how Cameron could attack the government while NOT fuelling the crisis further.
I think that Cameron had to be cautious about how he handled this attack on Labour on a day when people are queuing up outside Northern Rock.

He was trying to walk a fine line between appearing statesmanlike and reassuring to the public, while criticising the governments record. But he has laid out his stall on what questions needed to be asked and answered in the near future by Darling and Brown in Parliament.
Can Labour fling the word opportunistic at him on the strength of that performance, no they can't, and more importantly it keeps the pressure on them rather than our reactions being questioned.
A few weeks from now when the dust has settled, then Cameron and Osborne need to go after Brown and Darling full throttle on their record and what happened to Northern Rock. But today was not the time for that kind of grandstanding and political point scoring, lets leave that kind of behaviour to Brown and his cabal.
One further thought, what would Mrs Thatcher have to say about running an economy on a mountain of government and consumer debt?

[Iain]

EML, but it is already effecting most than a handful of people. The fact that Gordon Brown had to stage the wage rises of the Nurses in England and Prison Officers, the cutting of the capital budget of the English NHS, the massive trade deficit we have, the low savings ratio, is all part of the same story of Brown's fiscal and economic mismanagement.

The frustrating point is that this has all been telegraphed a long way off. Even at the last election it was clear from Brown's spending plans that he was going to have to slam the breaks on public spending growth, going from 5% growth to 2% was always going to be painful, and as much of public spending is the cost of public sector workers salaries, the cuts were always going to have to happen here. The Conservatives should have been putting down markers, making it clear people understood who to blame when the opened their wage packets and found staged wage rises, but the same goes for the housing bubble, lack of savings etc.

Unfortunately Cameron forgot the old adage, 'its the economy stupid' in fact going so far as to say the next election won't be fought on the economy but social breakdown, which now makes his attack on the NR look like bandwagon jumping, rather than confirming their argument after having made a sustained attack on Gordon Brown's record.

[Tony Makara]

The speech covers a lot of ground without going into overkill. The economic case against Labour needs to now be built on the key concerns raised. Labour's wanton borrowing brings into question their so-called prudence. More must be done to bring this to public attention.

[Yet Another Anon]

It's a strait jacket - the Conservatives have condemned PSBR but committed themselves to Labour spending plans, this means that if they are to move the budget towards balance quickly then they would need tax increases, if extra growth is achieved it would be years before that in itself would yield substantial extra revenue, but without cuts in tax then the scope for boosting growth is severely limited.

David Cameron is making a huge effort to squeeze a piece of paper in a space that even that won't fit.

[Graeme Archer]

Good speech - of course. Reminding the media class that debt is an issue we've talked about for a long time, without sounding gleeful at Northern Rock's difficulties.

This is the time to bang the "share the proceeds" message harder and harder (pace Conservative Home's readership!). Some of that sharing *has* to go into paying off public debt. WOuld also like to hear a strong commitment to rebuilding the savings economy we had before Brown wrecked it with his casual dismemberment of pensions and savings schemes. We used to have the best savings ratio in the EU, now we have one of the worst. Brown's fault.

These matters may not technically be linked. But they are thematically linked. The leadership is right to link them.

[Mike Thomas (215cu)]

YetAnotherAnon,

It isn't a straitjacket when you consider the £140bn that Labour spends on quangos.

Day one of a new Tory government, you get a list and score a line through the ones you don't want. All the advisors on cushy part-time 'consultancies' simply don't come into 'work' the next day.

Simple, job done, money now available for a different use.

[David Belchamber]

Whilst this speech usefully debunks the notion that Brown was a very successful steward of the country's economy, is stands as a fairly isolated statement of these facts (which have been around a long time now) and is made at a rather sensitive time.

It might have escaped any accusation of scaremongering had Osborne and the shadow treasury team made exactly the same points at various times over the last year or so (especially when GB was still Chancellor).

They are no less true but they are less effective and once again it is Cameron himself who is fronting it. I do not believe that Osborne is strong enough for this very important job but this would have been the opportunity for a major speech from him.

DC mentioned the current deficit (£35bn) as being the highest in Europe; as I believe he inherited a surplus from the tories of about the same amount (can you help, Mark, if you are out there?), that means GB has overseen a £70bn deterioration in our economy, despite the additional revenue from over 100 tax increases and the sleight of hand of, I believe, some £100bn (?) of off-balance sheet liabilies.

I should have thought that there is ammunition enough to put most of the country into an incandescent rage against Gordon Brown, given the poor return from this huge investment, so much of which must have been uselessly squandered.

I hope that the tories will keep up the attack, while at the same time putting forward positive suggestions to improve the country's financial state of health.

[MHDH]

As an Ex-Tory, I have to admit some good critique here. This said, DC is profoundly wrong on Northern Rock and the causes of it. Worse still is some of his analysis of what needs to sort it out, ie. public sector intervention.

My biggest criticism is that Cameron STILL adopts this high tax / 'public sector spending levels cannot be touched' mantra. Not only is this depressing, it's economically illiterate. Tax cuts creative incentives to generate wealth and expand the economy. The current Conservative Party line will cause no-one to trust the Party on the economy or on family finances.

[Tony Makara]

"also like to hear a strong commitment to rebuilding the savings economy we had before Brown wrecked it with his casual dismemberment of pensions and savings schemes"

Graeme, very good point. Recent events at Northern Rock will dent savers confidence even further. Labour's 'Buy now pay later' culture has completely undermined the concept of saving.

As David Cameron correctly says in his speech, credit can be a great bonus, but now under Labour credit has become seen as a panacea for every occasion. Where at one time a working class family would have saved up for a holiday, now they just pay for it out of credit.

[Effie]

Highly irresponsible this speech was from start to finish, this is the sort of things that start panics.
He should have waited until he seen what the Chancellor was going to do.
If anybody needs any proof of this man's unsuitability to become PM this was a prime example. The man is an amateur and he will talk us into a crash if he is not careful.
Everybody's savings would be hurt then.
There is a limit to his say anything do anything get elected at any price when it starts to harm banking institutes.
He is a panic merchant.
I shudder to think what the economy would be like under him and that silly little schoolboy Gideon Osborne.

[howard]

Are you actually reading/watching the same speach Effie? You sound just like a nulabour Troll.

The tories have been talking about debt for three years now, so can hardly be classed as opportunism.

[Iain]

"Highly irresponsible this speech was from start to finish, this is the sort of things that start panics."

No, if our banking sector is so fragile that a mild comment from an opposition politician criticising the scale of debt in our economy is likely to bring about a full scale panic, then the fault is not with the opposition politician, but the Government which got us into this mess.

So Effie are you questioning the substance of our miracle economy curtsey of Gordon Brown, and suggesting a comment from an opposition politician might bring the whole insubstantial edifice of debt crashing down? If so wouldn't that suggest you don't have faith in Brown's economy either, and also guilty of scaremongering yourself.

[Chad Noble]

"It might have escaped any accusation of scaremongering had Osborne and the shadow treasury team made exactly the same points at various times over the last year or so"

..or if Cameron hadn't made a joint WebCameron/YouTube interview video just 4 months ago praising our economy.

Still, there is a lot to criticse Brown for, it's just that Cameroon answer is, predictably, more 'good' state intervention by them.

[Effie]

howard | September 17, 2007 at 19:55
This silly troll word suggest to me that you are either in your late teens or early twenties.
I am not a troll in any shape or form, it is a stupid expression probably only used by the insecure-ill informed- or very immature people.
I am female age 70 years old, with a grown up family of professional offspring.
Now if you care to treat me like a human being instead of a thing then I will be prepared to answer you.

[Editor]

Play the ball people - not the man/ woman.

[Howard]

Troll is someone who takes part on a web forum with the intention of causing trouble. It is a term that is widely used on the internet along with such terms as astroturfer or being "fisked". So the term was accurately used to describe your post.

On the other hand your descriptions of me are inaccurate and offensive. But they would be since you cannot engage in debate and won't comment on the fact the Tories have been discussing this for three years?

I now remember why I stopped posting on here.

[TomTom]

Britain has belatedly moved to Monetary Base Control which is what has been needed for years instead of using interest rates to control lending.

This is the best means for the Bank of England to control credit expansion rather than rewarding banks by raising the price for retail money, acting directly on the asset base of the banking system by squeezing liabilities is ideal.

[Tony Makara]

Interesting that Labour has promised to bail out Northern Rock and 'any other' institution hit by the lending crisis. Labour will pay any price to prop up their china glass economy.

[Dave Bartlett]

Radio 4's World at One managed to find an LSE prof to call Mr Cameron's suggestion that Mr Brown was culpable 'ludicrous'. Careful, balanced, reporting from BEEB again.

[Edward McMillan-Scott]

I tried to send this to Conservative HQ but there is now news online intake, so I am sending it to Conservativehome for the record:

An apparent slip by BBC news anchor Huw Edwards was slammed as a slur on Northern financial institutions tonight.

Reading the BBC TV Ten O'Clock News [Monday Sept 17] he described the troubled Newcastle bank Northern Rock as 'Northern Wreck', apparently inadvertently repeating a widespread internet spin, but Euro-MP Edward McMillan-Scott (Yorkshire & Humber, Conservative) said this damaged well-run organisations like the the Bradford & Bingley or Skipton building society:

"Huw Edwards was probably reflecting the public mood, but a slip of the tongue can wreck reputations and savings. Yorkshire insttutions are respectable and well-run, unlike the spiv culture of the City of London which seems to have got at Northern Rock.

"There should be an EU inquiry into how our public institutions have led us into this quagmire, and in particular the bonus bonanza of recent years. I am desperately sorry for those directly affected." said McMillan-Scott, a Vice-President of the European Parliament, who recently net senior EU officials to discuss the "inordinate" benefits paid to London banking staff, running into to billions of pounds.

[IRJMilne]

At risk of appearing obsessive, having made two comments on the subject under the Theresa May post - having just read Mr Cameron's speech I am desparately tempted to finally abandon Mr Cameron on this women's pay issue. Women work less often, do different work, and are not required to be breadwinners in the majority of families. Mr Cameron appears to be looking to carry on the NuLab agenda in terms of both style and objects, with only some slight differences in means.

It really is no good Mr Cameron winning Liberals over to us if he loses all his Tories.

The financial part of Mr Cameron's speech is alright. But what use is a strong economy if such little as is left of traditional British society is wiped out?

[TomTOm]

Labour will pay any price to prop up their china glass economy.

So would the Conservatives under similar circumstances. Northern Rock and the second tier is not the issue - noone will buy them - but Barclays, Lloyds would soon be on the receiving end of a bid from Citicorp or Bank of America and the insurers would follow.

There is no merit in Conservatives pretending Northern Rock should default - it is a key institution in the North-East and one of the few symbols Newcastle has with the loss of engineering.....much as the Halifax is a major local symbol

[Traditional Tory]

There should be an EU inquiry into how our public institutions have led us into this quagmire

An EU inquiry is the last thing this country needs; now or ever.

Unlike some Tories I also detest the City 'spiv culture' and 'bonus bonanzas'. However, in a free society there is little you can do about either.

The Northern Rock is the latest in a succession of lenders who have got themselves in trouble over the years due to unwise financial policies. Under the old arrangements for building societies any such delinquents was quietly taken over by another society.

In the end, through a rather more painful process, that is what will happen to the Northern Rock once the panic is over.

[Iain]

"Radio 4's World at One managed to find an LSE prof to call Mr Cameron's suggestion that Mr Brown was culpable 'ludicrous'"

Yes, the first reaction by the BBC is to discredit any heretical comments suggesting their beloved Brown is anything other than brilliant. But even the BBC had to come to terms with the pile of debt on which Brown's 'miracle' economy is built, Newsnight came up with an interesting graph showing the divergence between borrowings and savings in the housing market, a difference of some £321 billion, a difference made up by Northern Rock market type borrowings. So in underwriting the market the Government has underwritten a £321 billion borrowing hole.

[Effie]

Troll is someone who takes part on a web forum with the intention of causing trouble
Howard | September 17, 2007 at 21:15

That may be your version of it, I have a door stopper which is a troll and I can assure you I am extremely well removed from that.
Having said that I go nowhere to cause trouble.
What you see is what you get full stop.
That is my opinion and allow me to furnish you with another fact, when I read a comment I like or an article I read I praise the author, what you read was and still is my honest opinion and if Consevatives do not like it then I will remind them all that this is still a free country and we have freedom of speech and while I am capable and able I will exercise my right to free speech.
I still think Troll is a silly expression and nothing is going to alter my opinion of that and if you are any older than I suggested I would have thought by this time you would have learned better.
I had things like that drilled into my family while they were children that they do not go running around calling people names when they have a differing opinion, that everybody had a right to an opinion whether one agreed with it or not.

[James Maskell]

"So when it comes to fiscal policy – tax and spending – the Conservative position is strong and clear"

Yes, its also Labour's position.

As for independent fiscal policy auditers, what exactly is meant by this? Another quango to watch out on fiscal policies? The answer to problems seems to be regulation and government intervention.

Cameron talks about a revolution. What revolution? We are ideologically tied to the Socialist Third Way. We are pulling ourselves to the left in order to close the ideological gap between us and Labour. But in doing so we alienate a great portion of our electorate, possibly permanently.

Our entire policy platform is based upon Labours own plans and taking them a little bit further. Economic policy, schools, health, welfare reform. All our policies add up to is Labour+1.

[TomTom]

"Radio 4's World at One managed to find an LSE prof to call Mr Cameron's suggestion that Mr Brown was culpable 'ludicrous'"

Yes..his name was Professor Willem H Buiter

http://www.nber.org/%7Ewbuiter/resume.pdf

1997-2000 Member of the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England

Eminently well-qualified to comment methinks

[Howard]

Still playing the man and not answering the question Effie. It is not my version of it, its the 21st Century version of it. Well used on the internet.

It is you is name calling and refusing to discuss fact.

[Effie]

My doorstop troll is also the 21st Century and he has a label on him proving it.
Now for an answer.
This Labour government did not tell people to go out and get upto the eyeball in debt in our buy now live later society. That is down to personal stupidity and greed.
If they had have put curbs on people's spending you would probably been one of the first to criticise the "Nanny State"
House prices are going through the roof because of a shortage of houses. This is down to a number of reasons for instance, more people living one to a house, marriage break-ups etc. The government cannot be held to blame for that.
Is David Cameron going to go into the next election saying that only people with such and such a deposit earning x ammount will be able to have a mortgage?
This Bank's trouble started in America not here, the problem with Northern Rock was it was more exposed than the other's.
People are not putting their savings under the matress when they withdraw their savings, they are taking it to other banks and they would not do that if they did not feel more safe.
Interest rates are down today, NR shares are up. What's your take on that?
We have a Chancellor who kept a cool head under a crisis and did not panic, unlike Calamity Cam who was trying to score a few "Brownie Points" out of a crisis. He was probably advised by his new partner Coulson.
Now argue with that lot.
As a footnote most people are still scared when banks get into trouble.
Black Wednesday and the stockmarket crash are still fresh in people's mind and can I remind you that it was the Tories that were the stewards of the economy when both happened. Not Labour.

[Howard]

The government controls how much money is in the economy and how what interest rates are. Gordon Brown has been manipulating the inflation rate and the target for the bank of England since independants. At a time 3 years ago, interest rates should have gone up. They did not because Brown changed the target. Consequently there was lots of cheap money available in the market for banks to lend. People have lent more than they can afford - thats there problem. The Tories for the last 3 years have been pressing this problem. Which Brown (and yourself) have ingnored.
So Brown is responsible for some of the current and future problems. No matter whether they started in the US or not, our economy is badly placed to see them out.

Back in 1997 Brown took the regulation of the bank of England and gave it to the FSA. The old BOE would have had more say in what was going. But Brown changed this.

The other problem cause by Brown is that his tax rises have pulled down peoples disposable incomes. This is also been driven by his changes to the inflation target. Real inflation is at 4.1%. The bank is using the massaged 1.8% figure. The problems that is causing are just coming home to roost.

[Howard]

Of course the shares are up, the bank has just been nationalised. But have looked at the volume of trade in those shares? Small volume that suggest people taking some profits. No large trades which suggest that no sensible institution is willing to currently touch with a barge pole. There are still queues at the bank today. Though I suppose these could be people wanted deposit large sums into government saving scheme paying 6.9%(with our tax).

[Traditional Tory]

At a time 3 years ago, interest rates should have gone up.

To thunderous applause from you, Howard? I doubt it, somehow.

Personally I would like to see careful credit controls and a tight rein on the money supply. However, the 'spend now, pay later' mentality started long before Brown appeared, and I am not convinced that the Tories in their present 'say anything to win' phase would offer a credible alternative.

Whether we like it or not, we now live in a global economy in which relatively cheap funds have been available worldwide. Sure, Brown has bathed in the glory of a false sun, but it would have shone with or without his participation.

[Effie]

TT you and I agree on tighter credit and controls they are sorely needed, but it is not going to happen.
No matter what gloss Howard puts on this, the problem started in the US and this bank was exposed more than others to it, for the simple reason unlike the others who use savers money to fund mortgages, NR used borrowed money from other banks more, these Banks stopped lending to one another.
If our economy Howard is in such dire straights, Why have we not got 4 million unemployed like we did under the Tories?
Why is our interest low and have stayed low?
Why has Cameron said he would use Brown's spending plans for the next three years?
Whose watch was Black Wednesday and the Stockmarket Crash on?
Who opposed every penny that was put into the NHS-Schools etc yet says he will match that level of spending?
Who is it that is going to tax short haul flights?
Who opposed the minimum wage and now says it was right?
Is David Cameron going to go into the next election saying that only people with such and such a deposit earning x ammount will be able to have a mortgage?
Is he going to go into the next GE saying he is going to tighten credit controls?
Is Cameron going to have a lot more houses built to take the heat out of the housing market?
Has he stopped dithering about Nuclear power and what is his policy on that?
How many windfarms is he going to have installed?
What is the difference from what Cameron is offering if he is going to keep most of Labours spending plans?
Why would anybody vote for Blue Labour when they have the real McCoy? It is like wearing plastic when one could have leather.
As for the stockmarket going up, it is still going up and whatsmore we are informed by independent analysts saying NR.are solvent and solid.
The only worry seems to be that if NR are vulnerable for a take over they hope it will not be by one of our big 4.
Thank God for a panic free Chancellor who stays cool under crisis conditions who says he will do whatever it takes to keep banking in this country stable and strong.
He unlike Cameron puts his money where his mouth is.

[Howard]

If our economy Howard is in such dire straights, Why have we not got 4 million unemployed like we did under the Tories?
Why is our interest low and have stayed low?

Because we have 2.7million on incapacity benefit and further 1million on DLA. Massaging the figures again..Do you see the pattern?

If you read my mail above you'd know that rates were low and should not be.

[Howard]

To thunderous applause from you, Howard? I doubt it, somehow.

It would have saved some of the problems now.

[Malcolm Dunn]

Effie I think you'll find that we have more than 4,000,000 people who are classified 'economically inactive'. Many of these people are claiming incapacity or other benefits.
Our interest rates are quite high compared to our competitors, I think the highest for ten years or more.
The stockmarket is at the same level it was in 1999,the savings ratio is at its lowest level ever and personal debt is at its highest.What a fantastic job Brown has done!

[Howard]

He unlike Cameron puts his money where his mouth is.

Our money. Not his. Common labour mistake.

[David Belchamber]

I agree with you Effie that contributors should consider facts and figures and not be abusive. However, your comment at 12.24 needs to be put in a wider context:

"Black Wednesday and the stockmarket crash are still fresh in people's mind and can I remind you that it was the Tories that were the stewards of the economy when both happened. Not Labour2".

Gordon Brown would have taken us into the ERM and secondly, after we had recovered from that disaster the economy took off, so by the time Gordon Brown became Chancellor he inherited a very buoyant economy with a balance of payments surplus of (I believe) about £35bn.

GB took this over and, despite putting up taxes more than 100 times in the last decade, he has turned that surplus into an equally large deficit.

In addition, he has plundered private pension schemes and racked up liabilities (which are not shown on the balance sheet) that are going to take nearly 30 years to repay.

He was a typical tax and spend Labour Chancellor, who has wasted billions of pounds, because the improvements in public services have been minimal.

[Traditional Tory]

The stockmarket is at the same level it was in 1999

Which should remind you that six years ago we were reading headlines such as 'Global Share Gloom', 'FTSE's Last Gasp Collapse' and so forth. Then the bull market picked up and continued on its way.

I think most investors find the fact that the FTSE is now back to 1999 levels mildly reassuring. Most of us have managed to make a good, or in some cases a fantastic income between the the two dates.

I don't credit Brown with the fact that my prosperity has increased markedly over recent years. I could well have fared even better under a Conservative government. However, those posters who rave on about crippling taxes and utter ruination should pay regard to the fact that this is not the experience of most electors.

Isn't this what Dave meant when he told us we shouldn't keep knocking 'Modern Britain'?

[Malcolm Dunn]

Tell that to all those who've retired recently or those who will retire in the next few years Traditional Tory.

[Effie]

14 questions there Howard, so far you have not answered one. Now allow me to take this effort of yours apart

Because we have 2.7million on incapacity benefit and further 1million on DLA. Massaging the figures again..Do you see the pattern?

Which government started massaging those figures?
Are you a Doctor and would you care to be the person who says these people are fit to work when a Doctor says otherwise, would Cameron know better than the medics?
Why is it when I debate these things with one person, that said person goes out of his depth and has to call on others to back him up and I end up having to take more than one person on?
How many people on this blog is called Howard?
Does anybody out there pull Howards strings or have to hold his hand?
Is Howard incapable of answering for himself?

Our interest rates are quite high compared to our competitors, I think the highest for ten years or more......

Can you remind us what the average was during the Tory Years?
How about also giving us the inflation rate figures for the same period?

the savings ratio is at its lowest level ever and personal debt is at its highest.

When did Tony Blair or Gordon Brown twist the arms up the backs of the idiots in this country who get up to the eyeballs in debt, to max out their credit cards to live beyond their means, simply because of this live now pay later attitude?

When Did TB or GB tell people to stop saving?
Has Cameron said he is going to dictate that people will save?
The last I heard saving was an option ans certainly not compulsary

David, GB certainly would have taken us into the ERM but NOT at the rate Major went in at, he is on record as saying the Conservatives left it too long and they entered it at the wrong stage of the cycle.

TT. I can tell you that we have never been so well off in our lives so I for one will not knock our economy and Gordon Brown's Stewardship of it.
Having said that we own our own home, no mortgage, a thrifty husband who keeps a tight control over finances and debt is completely out of the question. What we cannot afford we go without full stop!

[Iain]

"When Did TB or GB tell people to stop saving?2

When he stripped £5 billion a year from pensions, amongst many things.

[Malcolm Dunn]

When did Tb or GB tell people to stop saving?
Er, I think the abolition of PEPs and Tessas might have had something to do with it and the changes to the tax treatment of pension investments has been a disaster.
Whatever one thinks of him now,Ken Clarke handed Brown a healthy economy with a good PSBR which has now been squandered. Brown should have answered his own question and indeed written a thank you letter to Clarke.
Read Tom Bowers book on Brown for the full story.

[Traditional Tory]

Tell that to all those who've retired recently or those who will retire in the next few years Traditional Tory.

I meet them all the time in the course of my work, Malcolm. Vast numbers of today's pensioners are living a lifestyle of which previous generations could only have dreamed.

Many of those retiring now still have the benefit of good pensions, and an increasing number have been taking the opportunity to release equity from their mortgage-free homes. Why do you think the cruise companies are building the biggest (and ugliest) liners ever to sail the seven seas?

The writing is on the wall, of course, but it has been ever since businesses began to pull the rug from under final salary pension schemes.

And don't tell me that a Conservative government would/could have stopped that happening.

[David Lindsay]

Things would be so much better if that reassuring, naturally respect-commanding George Osborne were at the Treasury. Don't you reckon...?

[Traditional Tory]

Things would be so much better if that reassuring, naturally respect-commanding George Osborne were at the Treasury. Don't you reckon...?

Osborne was asked on R4 what he would do about the current problems.

The answers were totally vacuous. He would try and arrange for credit card issuers to be aware of the extent of other credit card borrowing by applicants and he would look into the possibilty of doing something to stop a 'Northern Rock' crisis arising again.

Osborne was Howard's bad joke. We can't blame Cameron for the original appointment, but we can blame Cameron for failing to get shot of him.

[David Lindsay]

COMMENT OVERWRITTEN BY EDITOR.

PERSONAL INSULTS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

[Howard]

Effie,

Back to been personal again I see.

There is only me who posts as Howard on here. No one pulls my strings.

This is a forum. More than one person can join a debate. Indeed, if you wish you can go away and research an answer before you post a response.

[Howard]

Editor,

I though you had brought moderation in to stop personal abuse but its back again? At least Traditional Tory sticks to arguing the point and not playing the person.

[Effie]

Actually the comment was not intended for you, a certain gent will not allow me to comment on any subject without popping up. If you are offended then I am sorry for that, please accept my apologies.
In the meantime you still have not answered any of my questions and you have had ample time to pop off and do research.
One thing we both agree on TT does stick to his point and he is the most sensible person on these threads that I have come across.
Having said that him and I disagreed on one subject but we never stooped to personal abuse,
TT. is also capable of answering questions which up until now you have been incapable of doing.

[Mathew Oak]

I fear that most people will view our leader's stance as political grandstanding. This issue is much more about people's homes, jobs and money and we'd be fools to forget that.