Nadine Dorries MP welcomes public support for tighter abortion laws

Earlier today at a House of Commons event attended by Conservative MP Angela Watkinson, a new opinion poll by ComRes for the pro-life charity, Life, was published on public attitudes to abortion.  Here are some key findings of the poll of 1,001 adults:

• 85% agree that "abortion has very serious health consequences both for the health of women and the unborn, and should be regarded as a last resort if it is used at all."
• 59% agreed that "Government should urgently review the law to reduce the number of abortions."
• 91% supported "a woman's legal right to be informed of the physical and psychological risks associated with abortion."
• 81% supported a "compulsory cooling-off period between diagnosis of pregnancy and abortion."
• 68% supported "a substantial reduction in the upper time limit for abortion to around 13 weeks, bringing us into line with our European neighbours."

Nadine Dorries MP welcomed the results in a statement for ConservativeHome:

"The result of the ComRes poll undertaken on behalf of LIFE comes as no surprise. The last twelve months have seen the issue of abortion receive much higher prominence both within the media, politically and the public at large.  Advances in medical technology, 3D scanning and the high visual impact media coverage of healthy baby after baby being born and leaving hospital has largely contributed to the firming up of public opinion.

What is interesting is, that despite the overwhelming body of evidence to support a reduction in the upper limit from 24 to 13 weeks, and a well identified public preference in favour, the majority of Labour and Liberal Democrat MPs are determined to amend the Human Tissue and Embryology Bill, which comes before the House in the autumn in order to relax the law, making abortion easier to obtain."

The MP for Mid-Bedfordshire has also also written about the issue on her blog.

Amanda Platell wrote a very moving article in yesterday's Daily Mail about this issue.

Comments

[Michael Davidson]

Restricting abortions is not something that a Conservative party should be concerning itself with.

We should be focusing on lowering taxes and giving people greater freedom from the state - not cracking down on freedoms.

The abortion rules as they stand are perfectly fine (and I agree, they should even be relaxed as proposed) and politicians should stop interfering unnecessarily.

Nadine Dorris should not be treating this as a party-political issue - abortion is too important for that. Many Conservatives would have no problem relaxing the abortion laws and she should understand that. Economic conservatism yes, but on social issues we do not all think the same.

[Tony Makara]

The concept of a womans right to choose is a complete misnomer. What matters is the child's right to life.

Women who become pregnant and do not want their own child ought to be made to carry the child until birth and then if the woman still wants to reject her own child she should then give the child up for adoption. I'm sure there are many childless couples who would appreciate the opportunity to bring a child into their lives. Everything must be done to preserve the life of an innocent unborn child.

It is indeed bizarre how we live in a society that won't execute child murderers yet gives legal status to the murder of unborn children.

[Ken Stevens]

A difficult subject and one where it is hard to define precisely where the boundaries should be, except that they are too lax now.

What is clear in my mind is that, in the ordinary course of events (i.e. no unfortunate circumstances such as rape or ill-health) abortion should never be used as a form of post facto contraception. "Freedom of choice" is exercised at the time of the original act, accepting that conception might be an unintended outcome.

[Henry Mayhew]

I can see the case for a reduction from 24 weeks. But to go straight to 13 seems far too aggressive. How about a gradual reduction over many years?

[Alan S]

Do we know if David Cameron is pro-abortion?

[ThunderDragon]

An immediate reduction to 13 weeks is far to fast and far too far. A reduction to 20 weeks seems much better.

Making a woman carry a child that she does not want is wrong. Abortion certainly shouldn't be more than a last resort, but it must always be available as an option for women.

[Ken Stevens]

"85% agree that abortion has very serious health consequences both for the health of women and the unborn"

In addition to my substantive comment above, might I also suggest that this poll question wording was somewhat less than crisp.
Had the question been split into its two aspects, one presumes that 100% of respondents would have agreed that abortion has very serious health consequences indeed for the unborn. That is the most significant moral factor involved in this topic!

[Jennifer Wells]

One day the abortion of children will be viewed in the same way as we now view the ill treatment of slaves in the 1800s.

[John Moss]

We should stop paying for abortion on the NHS.

Unless you have fallen pregnant as a consequence of rape, or there is a truly serious risk to the life of the child or the mother, there is no justification for taxpayer's money being used as a last line of emergency contraception.

Use a condom, take a pill - before or after the event, but don't expect others to pick up the tab if you can't be bothered.

[Iain Lindley]

Time to dig out that famous Yes Minister sketch about polls telling you what you want to hear, I think...

[Traditional Tory]

The concept of a womans right to choose is a complete misnomer. What matters is the child's right to life.

I agree.

Although I believe there are many instances where abortions should be permitted (rape, genuine threat to the mother's health etc) even then I find the option deeply disturbing and repugnant.

While it would be electorally unrealistic for the Conservative Party to take a fully ethical stand on this issue, anything that establishes the Tories as being generally on the side of the unborn child is to be welcomed.

[Traditional Tory]

ThunderDragon - Making a woman carry a child that she does not want is wrong.

Are you a believer in virgin births, Thunderdragon?

I am firmly pro-choice because I believe that choice should be exercised by women prior to having unprotected sex.

The belief that people must take personal resonsibility for the consequences of their actions lies at the heart of Conservatism.

[Logan]

"One day the abortion of children will be viewed in the same way as we now view the ill treatment of slaves in the 1800s."

Much more likely that in an overpopulated world, voluntary euphanasia will be commonplace.

Still, yet another decision that politicians seek to moralise about and then remove yet another free choice from the individual.

[HW]

I strongly disagree with Nadine Dorries on this issue.

Granted the foetus is a child and that child has a right to life. Does it then follow that the mother have an obligation to function as a life support system for 9 months? No, she does not. A legal system which forces this role on women is an unjust one and it is one which no big "C" Conservative can support.

Imagine that you woke up one day on a hospital bed, next to another patient with tubes and wires connecting you to them. Imagine also that you were told by the doctors that the other patients blood was being filtered through your body as their body was incapable of performing certain vital functions. If you exercise your right in a free society to refuse to cooperate, the other patient will die. Should you be forced to cooperate?

There is also the argument that, again in a free society, the medical profession should be free to decide what treatments it offers to patients without the state interfering in the privileged relationship between doctor and patient.

It is also interesting the disdain Nadine Dorries has for the decision making faculties of her fellow women. Surely they will know their own minds on this issue without needing a "cooling off period" and a good talking to about the evils of abortion.

[Effie]

Yes TT. but what about the women who become pregnant even although precautions have been taken?
I do not think anybody has any right to dictate to women what they should do or not do.
Only a male who has never been hours in Labour and has been through a breach birth or had twins or any multiple birth could make such a statement.
Men simply do not know what they are talking about when it comes to this subject.
It is an old saying that if men had babies there would only be one child in each family.

[Matt Wright]

Public opinion has shifted and the upper time limit needs reducing.

[Mark Fulford]

At what point does a collection of cells (a parasitic organism, even) acquire rights that match its host’s?

[Mark Fulford]

I am firmly pro-choice because I believe that choice should be exercised by women prior to having unprotected sex.

Good grief Traditional Tory, you really are a dinosaur! I suppose it's lucky for you that men are exempted from exercising restraint.

[Oberon Houston]

This subject is not high on the political agenda for most voters, therefore we should steer away from this. We cannot install a pro-core vote raft of policies such as anti-abortion, low tax, private provision, individual liberatarian, anti-europe, pro-nuclear family and win an election. The core vote is too small to win on and everyone else collects around fiercely opposing it. Until we get quiet on this stuff people outside our core vote will reject us.

[Traditional Tory]

COMMENT OVERWRITTEN BY EDITOR. PERSONAL ABUSE WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

[Annabel Herriott]

When the NHS is efficient enough to provide an abortion service that will allow abortions to be carried out by 13 weeks as a routine, then fine. It is when a woman doesnt discover her pregnancy until later, or a woman who is terrified and conceals her pregnancy, that problems occur.
I started working in the NHS prior to the abortion act, and have seen too many nasty life threatening bleeds to want to go back there. The simple fact remains, that if a woman does not want to be pregnant, if her pregnancy is perceived by her as threatening to her life as she knows it, if her parents are of the dinosaur persuasion, still a few of those around, then she will resort to the old "backstreet" abortion if help from the NHS is withdrawn.

[Michael Davidson]

Jennifer Wells: "One day the abortion of children will be viewed in the same way as we now view the ill treatment of slaves in the 1800s."

What an absolutely atrocious thing to say. To compare the treatment of slaves to an abortion says more about you than anything else.

Politicians, whether they be conservatives or socialists do not have the right to tell a woman what to do with her body when she is pregnant - it's her choice and her choice alone.

24 weeks is perfectly fine - it's the first two trimesters of pregnancy and it represents a fair amount of time for decisions to be made.

Cameron should focus on getting rid of these ridiculous green taxes and stop MP's like Nadine Dorris from banging on about how we're going to interfere more in people's personal lives and restrict their civil liberties.

[Oliver McCarthy]

WHAT? 85% of respondents agreed that abortion had "serious health consequences" for the unborn child?

Like DEATH, I suppose!

Is this some sort of sick joke?

[Paul]

Some of the comments on this thread are disgusting, since 1967 more children have died due to abortion than were killed during the Holocaust yet the issue is treated as though it is a mere question of freedom. Surely to protect life and do what is right is far more important than trying to gain votes from every section of society as some are advocating on here.

If our party wants to stand up for the vulnerable then perhaps we could start by affirming our commitment to the most vulnerable group in society, the unborn. For the record abortion is actually worse than slavery for it is the very essence of evil.

[Traditional Tory]

a collection of cells (a parasitic organism, even)

A peculiarly repulsive remark; all the more so because Mark Fulford has stated in the past that he has children of his own.

Of course Conservatives believe in freedom of choice, but we also believe humans are free agents who must face the consequences of their choices.

It is an old saying that if men had babies there would only be one child in each family.

Yes. In fact, if men had the babies the human race would in all probability be long extinct.

Equality is a human concept seldom found in nature, but the state can even the odds by forcing both parties to take responsibility for their actions.

Certainly, there are a number of circumstances in which abortions should be permitted, but 'I didn't know what sex was for' is no excuse.

[Mark Fulford]

"a collection of cells (a parasitic organism, even)"

A peculiarly repulsive remark; all the more so because Mark Fulford has stated in the past that he has children of his own.

I see a distinction between a zygote (at one extreme) and a child (at the other). I think my children can be pleased about that.

To see a zygote, blastocyst or embryo as being more than a collection of cells, one has to believe that it's more than a biological process at work -- something sacred. I don't.

[Traditional Tory]

I see a distinction between a zygote (at one extreme) and a child (at the other). I think my children can be pleased about that.

Every human being passes through the necessary stages to which you refer.

The children of those who arrogantly believe they have absolute powers of life and death over unborn infants must indeed be relieved that they survived the course.

[Effie]

I do not think that abortion should be used as a form of birth control, that in my view is wrong.
I could never see these things as having the power of life and death over another either. I see this more as not judging the circumstances of another persons life, none of us know the ins and outs of another's life and until we do a wise head keeps a still tongue. Not one of us can judge another regarding this issue. We simply do not and could not understand the reasons some unfortunate young women are driven to take such action. It cannot ever be an easy decision.
I would rather keep the status quo than drive these women into the clutches of the back street abortionists. That is what once happened and would do so again.
A lot of young women lost their lives through this dangerous practice. Desperation drove a good many into the hands of these people.
Just allow me to inform some of the more ignorant gents about a fact of life.
Sometimes there are NO obvious signs of a pregnancy and a lot of young women are caught out by surprise with this, that is one of the explanations for late abortions.
Do not condemn until you know all the facts.

[Mark Fulford]

Every human being passes through the necessary stages to which you refer.

Meaning a zygote is and has the rights of a human being?

Before calling me arrogant, question who it is that's presumptuously and aggressively asserting their view upon pregnant women (with a good dose of blame thrown in).

My girls can be secure in the knowledge that they were truly wanted, and that their father won’t attempt to impose baseless beliefs upon their bodies, lives, prospects, etc.

[True Blue]

Unless we want to think of another excuse to divide ourselves, we should stick with the current policy that it's a matter of conscience for individual members of parliament.

[Graham Checker]

Mark Fulford.

Well said.

Also, from a pragmatic point of view, the only choice is between legal, safe, professional abortions or...

Dangerous, nasty, backstreet abortions.

Anyone who doubts me on this should read up on the truly shocking figures of botched backstreet abortions taking place in the early 60s.

It was approx. 50,000 per yr and botched abortions were the leading cause of admissions of young women to hospital at the time.

I despise the views of the ultra-religious and pious on this and the way they seek to deny women ANY choice. The ethics to me are a non-issue. Up to a certain point an embryo/foetus is just a biological process and not a sentient being.

The only question should be; when is that point reached?

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

The problem with supporting 13 weeks, as Nadine does, is that it would legitimise abortion and close down debate. If you're a pro-lifer, than there can be no compromises: life starts at conception.

I hope Nadine has joined / joins the All-Party Pro-Life Group in Parliament instead of, as she has previously done, been on a one-woman mission. Together, we should speak with one voice.

I agree with Oliver McCarthy on September 13, 2007 at 01:49.

As for DC, I am pretty sure that he takes a pro-life view, although there have been few votes in Parliament where he has been able to express any opinion either way.

[Paul]

Justine, supporting 13 weeks would be acceptable as it would minimise the evil inflicted and in the current climate it would be highly unlikely to be able to get a bill through that repealed the Abortion Act completely and thus pro-life politicians have unfortunately to be pragmatic. What is important is that they publicily state their position that all abortion at whatever time during pregnancy is wrong, however in order to reduce the number of killings they have to support the 13 weeks at this stage. For comfirmation of this, read any Church statement in recent years from the Archbishop of Birmingham right up to the Holy Father.

[Traditional Tory]

Before calling me arrogant, question who it is that's presumptuously and aggressively asserting their view upon pregnant women (with a good dose of blame thrown in).

Let's call it responsibility rather than blame. If people do not wish to become pregnant they know exactly what they have to do, or rather not do. The choice is theirs alone.

Remember also that the current abortion laws, in common with virtually every other aspect of the so-called 'Permissive Society' - more properly termed the Sleaze Society - were pioneered by the Left - by Liberals such as David Steel as well as Socialists.

And that's a good enough reason for rejecting it.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Yes, Paul, but the vast majority of abortions are carried out before 13 weeks.

[Paul]

Justin, that is correct, I think the 2006 Department of Health figure is somewhere around 90% of abortions take place before 13 weeks. However it is still worth reducing the limit - by doing so thousands of lives will be saved but it will also send a message that abortion on demand is no longer acceptable and that parliament is serious about trying to end this barbaric act.

[True Blue]

Anyone seriously interested in the abortion debate should read the BMA's excellent position paper on the issue of abortion.

http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/PDFAbortionTimeLimits/$FILE/Abortiontimelimits.pdf

For example:

In the UK, the vast majority of abortions beyond 24 weeks are on grounds of serious fetal abnormality. In 2002, of the 117 abortions carried out at greater than 24 weeks in England and Wales, 114 (97.4%) were because of serious fetal abnormality; the remaining 3 were because the abortion was necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman.

[Billski]

Trad Tory: "Life begins at conception". Who says? The bible? Apparently not. The only biblical guidance we have is in Leviticus: "Life comes through the blood", so presumably until the vascular system is developed it is not a living human being.

As for the 58% of the public who apparently want a 13 week limit, I'd be intrigued to know how many would give up the choice of abortion in the event of likely severe handicap due to chromosomal abnormality in the foetus. Such tests normally need to be carried out above ten weeks, with a further two weeks for the results to be known: not much time left for "time for reflection".

[Traditional Tory]

Trad Tory: "Life begins at conception".

Care to point out where I used that phrase, Bilski?

What I did say is that - unlike Christian fundamentalists - I would allow a range of instances in which abortion may be justified.

'I didn't know sex made you pregnant' is not one of them.

[Donavon Pfeiffer]

Abortion is NOT the issue. The rate of unwanted pregnancies is the issue. Tightening restrictions on abortion goes after the symptom and not the disease.

[Anthony Dunn]

There is nothing like the Tory right returning to type with its attempt to legislate its way back into people's private lives and attempting to impose its form of morality and values. It is ironic that a profoundly anti-European party should seek to use "the European average" in defence of its position - but that we could see this in other spheres! Rather than vote for this amendment - for which NO evidence has yet been produced in support - perhaps we could have a move towards genuine abortion on demand - without the need to have two doctors give their consent. This device is used by some anti-abortion doctors to string things out and prevent women seeking abortions.

[Karen Davies]

I am absolutely against the reduction of the time limit for abortions from 24 to 22 weeks or less. Many of the woman who do actually have abortions in the later weeks are the most vulnerable themselves, I believe the health and wellbeing of the pregnant woman is far greater than the unborn fetus and women should have the CHOICE as to whether the have a termination during their pregnancy. MP Nadine Dorris should have spoken to these vulnerable women those who choose to have abortions in the later stage of pregnancy (which she did not) before she started this campaign!

[Sean Fear]

"Imagine that you woke up one day on a hospital bed, next to another patient with tubes and wires connecting you to them. Imagine also that you were told by the doctors that the other patients blood was being filtered through your body as their body was incapable of performing certain vital functions. If you exercise your right in a free society to refuse to cooperate, the other patient will die. Should you be forced to cooperate? "

That must be just about the weakest analogy I've ever read.

[Sean Fear]

"There is nothing like the Tory right returning to type with its attempt to legislate its way back into people's private lives and attempting to impose its form of morality and values. "

Delighted to hear it. Expect more of the same when we return to power.

[Sean Fear]

"What an absolutely atrocious thing to say. To compare the treatment of slaves to an abortion says more about you than anything else."

It certainly says that she's humane.

Still, while we have a left wing majority in Parliament, we'll have 200,000 abortions a year. There's only one way of changing that.