Osborne: There'll be no Tory promise to reduce the overall burden of taxation at the next General Election

I'm just back from the press conference where the Redwood-Wolfson report was launched.  The focus of journalists' questions was on tax policy but the report contains many other important economy-boosting recommendations.  Read about them here and read George Osborne's full remarks at the launch.

Most interesting was that George Osborne made it clear (yet again) that the Conservative Party would not go into the next General Election campaign offering voters an overall reduction in the burden of taxation.  There will be some tax relief measures but they will all be funded by other increases in taxation.  He also repeated that he believed in a low tax economy and that over the course of a parliament the party hoped to reduce the level of taxation - sharing the proceeds of growth between higher public spending and tax relief.

PS I've just written for The Guardian's Comment is free on why Redwood is fundamentally right and why George Osborne is politically right.

Comments

[Tory T]

This is a quite extraordinary way to report what George Osborne said.

The news, contrary to ConHome's inaccurate reporting in the headline below, is that George Osborne did very clearly say that he was indeed looking to reform IHT, that it was an unfair tax that affected ordinary people more than the rich, etc. He also said he was looking to cut business taxation severely.

He stated that the economy is in such wretched shape he cannot cut overall taxes before we know what we are dealing with, but that we are overtaxed and he wants to cut taxes in his first Parliament. This is the "authenticity" and consistency that ConHome said it wanted.

He implied that the IHT reform would be paid for with taxes on bad things, eg pollution.

After such a warm welcome of and endorsement of Redwood's report, and the positive TV news coverage, I can't quite believe ConHome wants to highlight his response this way.

If your concern was "will Osborne back Redwood on IHT" then the answer is yes he will!

[Mike A]

Good boy, George.

Now just get your staff in the press office to brief one consistent line and you might be in post at the General Election.

This keeps happening, and it needs to stop.

[Mike A]

I do hope Tory T is wrong...

[Sean Fear]

As taxes on pollution etc. are designed to discourage certain types of behaviour, they must surely be subject to a law of diminishing returns?

[MICHAEL MCGOUGH]

Two rights make a wrong!

[Tory T]

I am not wrong. I watched the press conference at which Osborne sat next to Redwood and the CEO of Next. I heard Osborne remark on IHT that it was an unfair tax which the rich largely avoided anyway, and which his ordinary people and that he was "looking very hard" at reforming it. He clearly implied it would go and that it would be paid for by taxing the bad - as Cameron has said he'll do from day one.

Yes, the Tories WILL tackle inheritance tax. The only confusion I see on this is right on this website - the media seem clear that they will tackle it. And what Osborne said this lunchtime goes with the line he gave BBC news that I quoted to the Editor this morning - the one where he said he wanted to reform IHT.

I see no confusion other than what's being created here!

[Tony Hannon]

A question for you.

Page 9 of the report asserts that the reasons for Ireland's growth was corporations taking advantage of the low tax rate and the well educated work-force.

As conservatives you'd like the lower tax rate but would you be willing also to look at the Irish education system? There's no such thing as a grammar school and there are virtually no private schools.

Would you support that here in UK?

[MH]

Tory T. Did they not put you on the A List and this is your way of trying to suck up to Dave et al?

[Tory T]

Judge for yourself on what George Osborne actually said, MH.

From the BBC online report

"Shadow chancellor George Osborne said he would look very closely at the idea [of scrapping IHT]"

"Mr Osborne described the report as "the most impressive and comprehensive analysis of the state of the British economy produced by any political party in recent times."

But while he said that he would look "very carefully" at the proposals, he said that there could be no commitment to specific tax cuts unless they could be fully afforded.

"Any reductions in specific taxes will have to be balanced by tax increases elsewhere, most notably green taxes," he added."

and from the first BBC report today, quoted as follows

"We are looking very closely at reform of inheritance tax and capital gains tax."

Crystal clear!

[Sam Tarran]

Not a very intelligent thing for him to say, in my view. By saying this, he's putting himself in a very tight corner. He should at least allow himself some leeway to promise simple tax relief.

[MH]

Actually, Tory T, I attended a private dinner where Osborne spoke. As someone who works in the city, he was spectacularly unimpressive and out of his depth. Ed Balls as City minister was far better.

[Andrew Lilico]

Tory T@13:11

For goodness' sake! The Editor has had three other postings about how Osborne *welcomes*, in principle, the ideas for inheritance tax. This thread is about how Osborne is, nonetheless, committed not to promising a reduction in the overall burden of taxation. And the Editor has written a piece for the Guardian explaining why he thinks that Osborne's is the right approach. Give the guy a break!

[Simon Newman]

The important thing of course is that taxes are cut over the course of a Parliament, not that there are tax cuts on Day 1. So this looks ok to me.

[Tory T]

Rubbish, Andrew! That's not what the threads below are about. They say that Osborne will *not* adopt Redwood's proposals on IHT when in point of fact he clearly says that he will.

In common with thousands of other association officials and activists I have just been mailed a party briefing from cchq which states:

"Tax reductions should be targeted to allow a more enterprising UK when the conditions allow, including lower corporation tax, the removal of inheritance tax, the reduction of capital gains tax, the abolition for stamp duty on shares and raising the threshold for 40% income tax"

Citing these as key recommendations the briefing repeats that Conservatives will "look very carefully" at them.

Far from there being even the slighest distancing of this from CCHQ it is being embraced.

The casual ToryDiary reader this morning who looks at the headlines of the articles is going to come away with the polar opposite of the facts - they will have the impression that George Osborne said "no" to the IHT proposal when he is quite explicitly saying "yes" to it.

[Opinicus]

I still think the presentation sucks.

Abolishing IHT will prove very popular as the CCHQ Bourbons will find over the next few days. Sending out this mixed, confused ,hesitant message is spoiling one of the best cards we have to play

[Robin Hood]

George Osborne aspires to be the new Sheriff of Nottingham. He would giveth with one hand and taketh with the other. Maid Marian and the Merry Men want a serious cut in what the very rich Sheriff George plans to take from them. Tinkering is not enough for them to be loyal subjects.

[TomTom]

Page 9 of the report asserts that the reasons for Ireland's growth was corporations taking advantage of the low tax rate and the well educated work-force.

Yes but as an Invoicing Centre. The value added in Chemicals in Ireland is higher than in Germany but Germany has a chemical industry and Ireland does not - but Ireland is the tax haven.

It seems silly for a country the size of Britain to compare itself with tax havens like the Virgin Islands, Cook Islands, Repblic of Ireland et al.

If we want to be innovative why not shift the current Tax Subsidy to billionaires living in Britain and paying no tax - to a tax credit system for Training and Education ?

We could then allow people tax relief on Education and on Training Costs so they could upskill themselves - it would have broader benefit than having assorted Russian billionaires paying zero tax in Britain

[Editor]

I'm sorry you disagree with my presentation of this, Tory T but I think I've got it about right. Over the course of four posts I've emphasised that George Osborne wants to cut taxes - including IHT - but that there'll be no deviation from the promise to eschew up-front, unfunded tax cuts.

[Mr Angry]

If, as seems to be the case, Osborne is saying that the Conservatives will examine the case for reducing certain taxes then good. If he is also saying that that will only occur by way of increasing other taxes or instituting new ones then bad.

We are living with the most profligate Labour Government of the modern era and our tax burden has never been so pointlessly high. I just cannot understand why he and Cameron are so wedded to the idea that we need to maintain Labour's excessive levels of both spending and taxation when we could just as simply be putting the very strong case for continuing to provide excellent quality public services but by means of cutting waste and inefficiency do so at lower cost. I believe that it may be called conservatism.

[Andrew Lilico]

Tory T@14:17

Really, you are excitable today! In this thread: http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2007/08/osborne-welcome.html

the Editor states:

"[Osborne] said that raising the threshold or reducing the rate of inheritance tax would also be options that a future Conservative government might enact."

There hasn't been any suggestion here that Osborne is trying to distance himself from Redwood's proposals, merely that he isn't yet *endorsing* them (as was wrongly reported by the Mail/Standard last night).

[David]

"I just cannot understand why he and Cameron are so wedded to the idea that we need to maintain Labour's excessive levels of both spending and taxation when we could just as simply be putting the very strong case for continuing to provide excellent quality public services but by means of cutting waste and inefficiency do so at lower cost."

Mainly because no one believes a party that goes about claiming it will cut waste and bureaucracy, having experienced at least three major 'deregulation drives' under the lst three Prime Ministers. You'll have to show that first, then cut taxes.

[Tory T]

Editor,

As I write I am drinking tea from my ConHome mug! I know you are on the party's side, but I must argue that the emphasis today is all wrong.

Of course there was never going to be a major U-turn on the centerpiece of the Cameron project, stability. But there is more here than "might consider it" or "IHT or raising the threshold..". Osborne and now CCHQ, on the record, are saying that they are actively considering (and we all know what "looking very hard at" means in realpolitik terms) cutting IHT.

This won't be an "unfunded" tax cut. That's the point - it will be taxes on good things like enterprise and the family home eliminated and replaced by tax on bad things.

Today the Tory party got specific about their promise, chided in blogs as too vague, to rebalance the tax system and exchange bad taxes for good ones. Specifically, we are looking at cutting IHT. As this move has been so broadly welcomed by the Sun, the Telegraph etc as you report on your home page it is highly significant in electoral terms.

Much more important, surely, than a headline that basically says "Newsflash - Cameron doesn't renege on everything he's ever said about taxes and stability"

What's the real headline here? Yes, we are going to cut inheritance tax!

[George Hinton]

So everyone's right, Redwood to talk, ask and espouse tax cuts and Osborne for refusing to tie the party to tax cuts as a manifesto item. In the meantime we are accept the ethereal:- "sharing the proceeds of growth between higher public spending and tax relief." sic.
That's almost as good a piece of gobledegook as we've been hearing from NuLab these last 10 years.
Anyone got a simple translation for it, other than the obvious, which is get lost electorate we will not let you have more money, rather the opposite.
I can understand the reserve, PFI and the rest of the Enron-like financial scams undertaken by Gordo will inevitably come home to roost costing us billions. So hence the mealy-mouthed words, which gives no committment to be tied down to by nuLab at the next hustings.

[David Belchamber]

The really worrying thing, at this stage, is what MH said @ 13.32:

"Actually, Tory T, I attended a private dinner where Osborne spoke. As someone who works in the city, he was spectacularly unimpressive and out of his depth. Ed Balls as City minister was far better".

One cannot argue with a person's impressions, so if your assessment is justified, DC should change him sooner rather than later. Any out of Hague, Redwood or Rifkind would inspire much greater confidence, though there are probably others to consider.

[Tony Hannon]

Tom Tom,

I presume you think the conservatives should stop using Ireland as an example of the laffer curve (lower taxes more tax revenue) then. Fair enough.

Wouldn't be very difficult for the Tories to argue for tax cuts without it then?

By the by - you're wrong about the Irish chemical industry.

It's still the fastest growing in Europe and exported approx €20bn worth more than the UK last year.

(These figures are seven years old but show trend)
http://www.ul.ie/~childsp/CinA/Issue61/TOC15_BoomingInd.html

There are, however, companies who set up HQ in Ireland but precious little business is conducted there which is what you're getting at.

[Tony Hannon]

Also - can I wade in??

Tory T - I'm not on the Party's side but you're right. The immediate impression from the headline above was that Osbourne gave a cold reaction to the proposals.

We know he didn't (give it a cold reaction). The intelligent reader will have heard his mantra about sharing proceeds of growth and will also immediately understand that he wants to avoid attack by effectively saying "thanks for the proposals - but we've not written the manifesto yet".

So no need for excitement (on anybody's part).

[alex r]

if you do not promise to reduce taxes, I will not vote for you at the next election. it is very simply.

[TomTom]

Tom Tom,

I presume you think the conservatives should stop using Ireland as an example of the laffer curve (lower taxes more tax revenue) then. Fair enough.

The Laffer Curve is b@llshit. Germany pays Ireland twice - first it pays large net contributions into the EU which flow to countries like Ireland, then Ireland cuts tax rates to 10% for invoicing centres and siphons off tax revenues from Germany owed by corporates like BASF etc.

I don't know if Conservatives would like the tax treatment of personal incomes and allowances and expenses that the Irish Government uses or the VAT rate.

[Tony Makara]

Trying to second guess the economy and making promises either way isn't going to help the situation. The future Conservative government will need time to take stock and look at the damage and shortfalls left behind by Labour. Gordon Browns debt fuelled economy is carrying underlying inflationary pressures, interest is a demand for money, those paying interest will have to find that money, this creates an inflationary pressure that will have to be ironed out one way or another. Raising interest rates won't work in this case as it will only increase the debt/demand. However one thing the Conservatives can do is wind down a number of Labour's wasteful projects. Closing down the New Deal would free up billions. Everything must be costed of course with a sufficient margin for error/change factored in.

[Geoffrey G Brooking]

We should take people earning under £13,000 a year out of tax completely and make housing and council tax benefit awards a max of 80% becaused these days you need to inspire people to work.

[Tony Makara]

Geoffrey, I would love to see everyone working but sadly the jobs do not exist. We haven't a hope of creating full employment unless we create a large privately-owned manufacturing base. The global economy is being exploited so brilliantly by China because they set great store in manufacturing. Nations with large populations like Britain need a large manufacturing industry to balance the economy. Otherwise we are going to become dependent on imports which has certain dangers.

[Annabel Herriott]

I listened carefully to the leftie lady trying to screw George Osborne down this morning. She did not succeed, by by golly was she trying to get him to state that he did not go along with John Redwoods proposals or was she!! He held the line perfectly, even though she was just on this side of being bloody rude to him.

[Tony Hannon]

Tom Tom,

If the Laffer curve is bullsh*t (which I suspect it is) - why does your party keep citing it?

[Traditional Tory]

Tory T - I am not wrong. I watched the press conference at which Osborne sat next to Redwood and the CEO of Next

On TV or were you actually there?

I'm just trying to work out whether your're a gentleman of leisure who watches the gogglebox all day instead of working, or whether you are a CCHQ apparatchik.

Your fervid attachment to the party line suggests the latter.

[David]

A good example of the Laffer curve can be seen in Iceland- a reduction in corporate tax led to an increase in revenues.

However, the size of the effect rather depends where you start from-the returns diminish so that if you already have a relatively low tax rate, a further cut won't provide a net revenue increase.

[Edward]

Of course the Laffer curve works and makes sense. The only question is whereabouts on the curve you're starting from: below the peak (where increased tax = higher revenues) or beyond it (where decreased tax = higher revenues).

[Jon Gale]

Here's a novel idea:

Win election, cut waste, cut pointless Labour programmes, cut regulations, scrap the Social Chapter, rebalance taxes from taxing families onto taxing pollution, see how much the economy grows by and how much that growth puts into the Treasury.

Use some of the money saved/generated to spend on public services, prisons, military etc. and use the rest to cut taxes.

(If I was doing it I'd also spend a bit on reducing national debt)

Cutting taxes and de-regulation should help economy grow, use some of growth-dividend to spend on public services, some on tax cuts..... repeat for length of a parliament or two, or until Laffer curve runs out.

Now, it needs a name....lets see...."Tory tax cuts" makes people think of service cuts, hospital beds in corridors....how about "sharing the proceeds of growth"?

And since we wont know how much we can cut straight away, we would have to say there wouldn't be any "uncosted upfront tax cuts".

Now, all I need is some sort of Policy Review thingy to come up with a menu of ideas of what we can cut as and when we can afford it...........

[Simon Denis]

If they don't promise to cut taxes then what on earth is the use of them? True, they're trying to court the centre ground but over recent weeks they've lost it. The centre is not only vague, it is essentially cowardly and it doesn't like losers. Dave is a loser. The degree of nauseated disdain and hatred he now inspires in the average voter makes Major look like the man of the year. Principle is the only thing left to the tory party, so it had better jolly well embrace it before it loses all title to a hearing. The cause of low taxation is a just one. If it is embraced now and with vigour, the conservatives may - just may - win the election after next. This one was lost when the Cchange boys took charge.

[MrB]

Like it or not tax cuts are pretty impossible to propose to the public at the moment. At the last election the Labour spin machine effectively created the impression our tax cuts would mean cuts in public services (even though in actual fact spending would have still risen).

I want to see tax cuts but we're never going to win an election promising them. They're too hard to argue for (whilst retaing the public's interest), and too easy a target for negative spin. Best leave it until we're in office. DC and GE understand this.

[John Spade]

"Principle is the only thing left to the tory party, so it had better jolly well embrace it before it loses all title to a hearing." A lack of fixed principle is the reason the Tory party has gone on so long and it is about time we re-discovered the principle of dumping the principles which have caused the voters to dump us at the last three general elections.

[Nonymouse]

They're having a 'laffer' and the jokes on the electorate.........

[TomTom]

The global economy is being exploited so brilliantly by China because they set great store in manufacturing.

They have nothing else. China is now No4 economy in the world and will overtake Germany this year. It has ZERO tariff access to both US and EU markets which no G8 country has.

Japanese factories moved to China to get duty-free access to EU and US markets; US factories moved to China to get duty-free access to EU and US markets and build scale in China.

If I personally import a radio from China it comes in duty free - but if I buy that radio Made in China from Los Angeles I pay duty + VAT for importing a Chinese product via the USA

The economics of moving manufacturing to China is not simply labour cost - it gives China access to the EU without any of the fees we pay in terms of CAP and Budget and Regulations.

China manufactures because it has nothing else to sell us. Germany now has a 180-day backorder for machine-tools presumably because China has created such demand

[Cleo]

Voters will not vote for a party that promises to slash taxes. The Conservatives did this in 2001 and 2005 and lost and if they do it again Labour will win again by a landslide. Voters are concerned that public services continue to be invested in and reformed. Reforming the tax system is the right approach.

[Dominic Paul]

Tony Hannon is talking out of the back of his head I went to a boarding School in Dublin and at that time there was well over fifty private schools in the Dublin area. The education standard is higher than the UK
Getting back to the debate if Osborne can not see Redwood's announcement as a vote winner he should be replaced by Redwood who is a serious man and gave a first class presentation to the media at large.

[Cardinal Pirelli]

Anyone who believes that Ed Balls is impressive has real judgement problems. He is the least impressive of ministers and talking him up won't make us believe you, quite the opposite in fact.

[Ex member and donor]

Channel 4 News led with the story that the Tories will go into the next election with a promise to tax as much as Gordon, i.e. not to reduce the overall burden of taxtion.

Osborne's performance was pathetic. This is a man who has no work experience outside politics. In his 20s, he worked as Hague's adviser before getting his safe seat. As the heir to hundreds of £millions, he has no understanding of how high taxes cause misery to those on low to middling incomes.

I received my party membership renewal request this morning. Tonight, it has gone in the bin. There is no pointing being a member of the Conservative Party if it does not have Conservative policies.

So George has the cost the Party several grand tonight. I have just opened a bottle of Krug - much better than wasting my money on a bunch of trustafarian Bullingdon socialists who have hijacked our Party.

[Scotty]

"I received my party membership renewal request this morning. Tonight, it has gone in the bin. There is no pointing being a member of the Conservative Party if it does not have Conservative policies.

So George has the cost the Party several grand tonight. I have just opened a bottle of Krug - much better than wasting my money on a bunch of trustafarian Bullingdon socialists who have hijacked our Party."

I particularly loved the "socialists who have hijacked our party" LOL
Hello, that's the bunch in government taxing you till the pips squeak, obviously does not bother you that much then.

[Ex member]

"Hello, that's the bunch in government taxing you till the pips squeak, obviously does not bother you that much then."

The pips are already squeaking but Squeaky Osborne will not commit to do anything about it. That's socialism to me. Blue Labour=Blue Danger!

[Ex member]

Scotty, my business colleagues refer to Cameron (aka Lord Snooty) and his chums as POETS - Posh Old Etonian Tory Socialists.

[Traditional Tory]

Voters will not vote for a party that promises to slash taxes. The Conservatives did this in 2001 and 2005 and lost

A particularly clumsy example of the Post Hoc fallacy. There may have been 1001 reasons why the Conservatives lost but there is no particular reason to suppose that a commitment to cut taxes was one of them.

Quite the opposite, in fact. Most people want to pay lower taxes. It leaves them more to spend on booze, gambling etc.

'Carry on Cleo' really is the most pathetic of the Roon trolls with 'her' limited repertoire of brainless one-liners. However what makes me really crease up is 'her' insistence that 'she' is an uncommitted floating voter.

Oh yeah? So of course 'she' spends all 'her' time on a Tory site posting standard Roon propoganda imbibed from - where I wonder?

Standard behaviour for an 'uncommitted floating voter' - NOT!

[voreas06]

Traditional Tory "Oh yeah? So of course 'she' spends all 'her' time on a Tory site posting standard Roon propoganda imbibed from - where I wonder?"

But hang on I know a commenter that spends "his" whole time attacking Cameron in a slightly obsessive way and all his attacks remind me of caricature of a Tory right winger that someone from the labour party might think is accurate.

[Scotty]

Ex member, your childish insults and desire to keep the present socialist government in power remind me of a once regular poster on this site who lost all credibility a long time ago.

[Cleo]

Voters don't want tax cuts if they mean that schools, hospitals, transport, police are under-funded. People want fair taxation yes but not tax cuts for tax cutting sake just to prove that the Conservatives are the same old vote loosing right-wing debating society. Banging on about tax cuts and Europe will simply ensure Labour stay in power.

[Alistair]

Cleo is 100% right. What I can't understand is why she is even thinking of voting for Cameron and his phonies after this latest lurch to the right.

One of the few good things Cameron did was when he went to South Africa and apologised for the mean-minded racism of Thatcher and her gang during the horrors of apartheid. Therefore I would like to propose that the Tories unveil the Big Blue Book of Tory Apologies which should be sent to every householder in the country.

Cameron should start by apologising for the way Thatcher wrecked this country putting millions out of work and destroying our industrial base.

He should also apologise and condemn all racist and extremist Tory groups starting with FCS whose Hang Nelson Mandela campaign caused outrage all over the world. Once FCS has been officially branded a racist far-right organisation and apologies made I would like to see all ex-FCS members in the shadow grilled as to their past and current activities.

This could cause some embarrassment but Cameron has to grasp the nettle and deal with the far right poison in his party!

[Cleo]

Alistair I certainly will not vote for Cameron if he continues to lurch to the right rathe than stick to the centre ground. Many many people will not vote for the party and the Conservatives will be consigned to opposition forever.

[Ex member]

Scotty, I am not Chad Noble whom I regard as a dangerous maverick. I am a loyal and long-serving member who is fed up with the spineless drivel that is spouted by the Shadow Cabinet. My discontent mirrors that Sir Tom Cowie who funded Cameron's leadership campaign.

There are many members in my area who are appalled by the party leadership. Many have decided to leave the party in the last year. We just cannot see any substantial difference between the main parties. There is no evidence to suggest that Cameron would be any better than Brown. He has no experience of running any organisation.

I will not be joining UKIP like many disenchanted former Tories and will be a conscientious abstainer instead. It is time to leave the grubby world of unprincipled party politics for the joys of classical music, opera and other culturally conservative leisure activities.

This is a very sad day for me and I let off steam. Time to say goodbye!

[Ex Member]

Alistair is a Labour Party troll. There was no FCS "Hang Nelson Mandela" campaign. Tory grandees, e.g. Norman Tebbit, condemned FCS leaders for supporting the abolition of immigration controls and legalising hard drugs.

[Will]

Scotty - " particularly loved the "socialists who have hijacked our party" LOL Hello, that's the bunch in government taxing you till the pips squeak, obviously does not bother you that much then."

But don't we as a party say that the current level of taxation is fine, which is why we won't promise any cuts. If the pips are squeaking shouldn't we be offering tax cuts?

[Traditional Tory]

I would like to propose that the Tories unveil the Big Blue Book of Tory Apologies which should be sent to every householder in the country.

How about the Big Blulabour Book of 'Roon Apologies?

What with Hug a Huskie, Hug a Hoodie, Hug a Hutu, Love a Lout, Grammargate, the ‘tree’ doodle and a host of other blunders it's already likely to achieve 'coffee table book' status.

I suggest loose-leaf format so that the work can grow with its subject.

[Ex Tory Member]

The comments which appear on this site are unbelievable at times. Does anyone here who posts actually support and vote for the Tory Party? With the general standard of comments a Martian would thing this site has been incorrectly named and should really be called Labour Home.

[Alistair]

I am very proud to say that I do vote Labour and if "Ex Member" thinks that makes me a Troll it shows how limited his vision is.

Good to see that in Cleo there is at least one sane voice in this Tory madhouse.

Oh and ex-member it seems you know very little about FCS. The Hang Nelson Mandela accusations have been PROVED with several leading members photographed wearing badges and T-shirts.

Some of those far-right lunatics now occupy trusted positions in the Cameron Party.

[Cleo]

The site is indeed a gift to the Labour Party because it fails to understand that the Conservative Party has to change to win and is a forum for people to attack the leadership and attack anybody who does not believe that anti-EU, tax cuts above public services, harping about the past will win a general election.

[Scotty]

"But don't we as a party say that the current level of taxation is fine, which is why we won't promise any cuts. If the pips are squeaking shouldn't we be offering tax cuts?"

Will, back in the days when Brown took over at the treasury he was handed the books and was most displeased to find no lurking black hole in the finances despite desperately digging to find one, it made the idea of sticking to the Conservatives spending plans harder to sell in his own party. Sadly Osborne is not going to be so lucky!
If and when we get a Conservative government, George Osborne is going to have a mountain of *off* the books debt to contend with, that makes it harder for him to promise up front tax cuts to his party before he is even in the door of No11.

At the moment I want a Conservative party that can realistically deliver what it promises, putting competence and sound management of government departments before headlines or the implementation of a policy.

[Scotty]

Alistair, calm down, go and fight for a bit of democracy and debate in your own party which sadly seems to have forgotten how its done.
Your party is turning into the most illiberal regime I can remember in the UK, so be a useful troll and go and challenge them on it.

[Alistair]

Cleo they're not going to change in a million years. Surely you can see that.

Who cares if the Tories are all attacking each other. It's what their good at. Let them help Britain by wrecking their own party.

Even after years of successful Labour rule the damage inflicted by Thatcher and her gang has still to be repaired. Gordon Brown has got off to a fantastic start and he needs people like you.

Don't waste your time with them.

[Cleo]

It is increasingly clear that the party is incapable of change and is completely unaware of the issues worrying ordinary people. It prefers to turn in on itself.

[Ex Tory Member]

The output of the Redwood policy group is pretty good in general and it should by and large be adopted as party policy.

Osborne has also been impressive (daft comments in this thread suggesting he is weak compared to Balls) and he would make a fine deputy to John Redwood. A Redwood-Osborne leadership team would have the advantage of appealing to the core vote and bringing in a new generation of voters.

[Yet Another Anon]

There was no FCS "Hang Nelson Mandela" campaign. Tory grandees, e.g. Norman Tebbit, condemned FCS leaders for supporting the abolition of immigration controls and legalising hard drugs.
Norman Tebbit has a number of times in interviews referred to people in the FCS wearing T shirts saying Hang Nelson Mandela, and how he found that ridiculous and objectionable. Whether it was part of a campaign or not of the organisation, Norman Tebbit sees it as tainting the whole of the FCS.

[Stephen Tolkinghorne]

"Even after years of successful Labour rule the damage inflicted by Thatcher and her gang has still to be repaired. Gordon Brown has got off to a fantastic start and he needs people like you."

And that damage was ? Perhaps you might enlighten me as to what Labour have done that has been in the remotest way anything other than absolutely catastrophic.

I think the Tories are a hopeless, appalling, awful shower, but in that respect they're just like Gordon Brown and his Labour chums.

What have Labour done that's been successful. Anything ? I don't think so. By the way, our manufacturing base and ability to pay the bills is actually lower after ten years of Labour than it was even under the awful Major.

If Labour are so great, why are over 350,000 Brits leaving each year in search of a better life else where ?

[Jarod Weaver]

What Boy George actually said was, "We won't tax you on this, but to make up the difference, we will tax you on that"! So under a "Conservative" government we will still face the same tax burden as we have had for the past ten years. What he basically means is he will reduce taxes on business, and then dump them on the middle classes for flying to Spain for a well deserved holiday. If I hear "Sharing the proceeds of growth" once more, I'm going to stick needles in my eyes. These modern Tories just don't get it, do they? Ten points behind in the polls and Dave is still having his clause 4 moment. Hey, maybe I could start up a website called webweaver, where I'm not hugging hoodies, or going to Africa in times of crisis. Howabout webweaver focusing on the things that matter to the ordinary people of Britain? like crime, excessive taxes, an overpowerful Europe and uncontrolled immigration, where my parliamentry candidate was perfect for the constituency whatever his race is, rather than a candidate who is crap for the job, but picked as long as his racial credentials fit Dave's common room edict. Don't even bother to check if he's donated to the Labour party. The modern Conservative party is pathetic, they will get stuffed at the next election, bring it on.

[Matt Wright]

Alistair's comments are laughable. Perhaps he's not old enough to remember what Britain was like or maybe just wants to live in a dream world. The restrictive industrial practices that had grown up under socialism had made the country into a joke. There was no way we could even enter the modern world the direction we were heading, never mind compete and add value. The unemployment that resulted from socialist failure was sadly inevitable and the longer things went without any structural changes the worse it would have become. It wasn't Thatcher that was responsible for that it was your socialist mates. She just had the guts to try and change it. Ironically it is the current butch of socialists that are benefitting from the hard decisions she took. Although those same so called Labourites have converted what is left of the once proud working class into welfare dependants. At the end of the day socialists don't help the working class they just reduce the majority to the lowest common denominator while their appratchiks ride on the backs of the working class. Having grown up from a working class background I can perhaps see this more clearly than the toffs in my party! Whats more when I spell it out on the doors in Labour areas you will be suprised just how many agree.

Matt

[Sean Fear]

"Some of those far-right lunatics now occupy trusted positions in the Cameron Party"

As an ex-Monday Club member, are you really in a position to condemn the "far right?"

[Thomas Bridge]

Tony Hannon, you are talking nonsense when you say that:

As conservatives you'd like the lower tax rate but would you be willing also to look at the Irish education system? There's no such thing as a grammar school and there are virtually no private schools.

Blackrock College? Clongowes? Belvedere? Not to mention the huge number of well off students who do their leaving cert at the Institute of Education.

Many secondary schools do make applicants sit entrance tests, and typically pick and choose their pupils on the basis of the results in those tests. Sounds like the grammar school principle to me.

[Martin Wright]

While tax cuts would be welcome, I question the wisdom of concentrating so much attention on Inheritance Tax. Yes it seems an unfair, even punitive, tax but presentationally it seems wrong to give that priority over cuts in income tax that will benefit most of the adult population.

On a point of detail, when we can afford to reduce IHT, I'd favour raising the overall threshold. Exempting family homes could be distorting, as it would provide yet another incentive to the British propensity to over-invest in land and under-invest in other more productive assets such as equities.

[Ulster Tory]

Two points on Ireland. It has loads of private schools and essentially operates selection by cheque book.
Undoubtedly many companies do use it to avoid tax but it actually has a significant pharma industry

[Torygirl]

Newsnight has just said that the Osborne for the Tories is taking John Redwood's report very seriously. They need to make up their minds one way or the other, all this indecision makes them look incompetent.

[Perdix]

This site is absolutely useless as a help to the Conservative Party.

[TomTom]

Tax Charts

http://www.worldtaxpayers.org/statmarg.htm

Ernst & Young

[Simon Denis]

I hardly think a conservative party should be orienting itself towards the ideologies of liberal Cleo or socialist Alistair. Like true bigots they think that anyone who disagrees with their politics has to be "mad". Mr Kruschev had the same idea.

The first priority of a democracy is political choice. Alistair, being a socialist, presumably doesn't quite grasp this. He's after an eastern bloc situation in which all three parties are essentially the same, whilst any remaining dissent is branded far right and hunted down by the thought police.

As for Cleo, why turn the tories centre left when she's got two parties on her side already.

As I say, the left neither understands nor particularly likes democracy. As for freedom...

[GroundhogDay]

It seems a very muddled message. Why not be straight with the electorate and have some courage and present a policy of sensible tax cuts (just what Redwood was proposing)...this has to be a vote winner with recession knocking on the door.

Instead we get this flaky muddled piffle....and another missed opportunity

[GroundhogDay]

Ed - I fear you are also slipping into the weasel words of modern politics with your Guardian article....

"Big tax cuts will have to wait until the Conservative party is in office and then Chancellor Osborne will start to share the proceeds of growth between lower taxation and higher public spending. That's what I hope for anyway".

Unless we can produced a coherent message - delivered in a competent manner - we will not be in government!

This is what the chaps at the top need to grasp, and bloody quickly!

[Traditional Tory]

This site is absolutely useless as a help to the Conservative Party.

Doesn’t that comment sum up the attitude of the Cameroons? CH is not a branch of CCHQ, much as Perdix and his ilk might like it to be.

How sad that the ultra-loyalist Platform 13 laid an egg.

I almost laughed out loud at Voreas’s comment that I was a ‘caricature of a Tory right winger that someone from the Labour party might think is accurate’.

If Labourites want to realise their wildest Steve Bell fantasies, they have only to check out the reaction of our Cameroon friends whenever Dave suffers major setbacks such as the Quentin Davies and Ali Miraj affairs.

Instantly the touchy-feely metrosexual mask drops and a mob of harrumphing swivel-eyed blimps bay for blood. The foam-flecked cries of treason, dolchstoß and God knows what else call to mind the ravings of a bunch of purple-faced monocle-popping Prussian Junkers.

It’s good to know that the notorious arch-reactionary Generalfeldmarschall Albrecht von Roon is alive, well, and living among his modern namesakes.

[malcolm]

Back from a weeks holiday and see nothing much changes on CH! Usual positions from Tory T, (everything CCHQ does is superb if not better)Cleo, (Cameron is in danger of becoming a dangerous right wing lunatic)to MH, (I used to be an association chairman but then I lost my brain and can only spout cheap insults)and Trad Tory (Cameron and the 'Roons' are just a bunch of ****, any insulting word will do preferably in German).
Funnily enough,I've rather missed it all, (well not Trad Tory I doubt anyone misses him).
Glad to see the Redwood report seems to have been well received in the media and that the good people of Kingston Upon Thames agreed with our esteemed Editor on 'Any Questions' that it would be good to abolish IHT.I wonder if we as a party have now turned a corner after a very difficult couple of months?
Just read Tom Bower's book on Gordon Brown which I would recommend to all.It's not a hatchet job on our PM although it is largely uncomplimentary about him particularly over his rather shameful treatment of other people. What struck me most though is what an incorrigable liar Brown is, (certainly the equal of Blair)who seems to believe that constant repition of a lie will make it true and also how he has failed even on his own terms in the tasks he has set himself as Chancellor.
After ten years Britain is more divided and unequal than it was in 1997, the workshy are still in receipt of benefits, we have a large and growing underclass and we have gained nothing in economic competitiveness.
Having said that Brown is still a formidable politician in the worst sense of the word and we are soon going to have to take some big risks to beat him.
Our leadership are going to have to work harder and be braver than they have been to date if we are going to win.

[Annabel Herriott]

The Tory policy announcement to look hard at IHT with a view to abolishing/reviewing it, is going down really well on the door steps - ie real life voters!! I have to ask myself therefore, are some of the people who post on CH real??

[Traditional Tory]

The Tory policy announcement to look hard at IHT with a view to abolishing/reviewing it, is going down really well on the door steps

I used to find that nothing went down well on a doorstep on a Saturday morning, Annabelle. Are you seriously telling us you have been canvassing people since this announcement was made?

Anyway, if the policy is popular you can be sure Brown will take it on pronto.

[TonyHannon]

I'm not enjoying this.

Here's the full list of private schools in Ireland. 13 outside Dublin - 27 in the Dublin area.

http://www.irishlinks.co.uk/private-schools-ireland.htm

This is, as I said, "Virtually no private schools" in a country of 4m people.

Thomas Bridge - you're wrong. Tests before entry to a public secondary school NEVER determines right of entry but gives guidance on the level of class once in the school - if there are enough people to have seperate classes.

It beggars belief that people put their name to something they won't back up with fact. Pretty damn foolish.

[voreas06]

Traditional Tory "Anyway, if the policy is popular you can be sure Brown will take it on pronto."

Four problems with that.

1) thanks Gordon, you are fulfilling our policy agenda.

2) either: Hang on a minute, Gordon has said this kind of thing before, perhaps we had better check the small print. Oh look it is a total lie. If you really want inheritence tax abolished on the primary residence the conservative party will do it for real, no Gordon Brown style spin, actually doing what we say.
Or Hang on Alister Darling was telling us that we were lurching to the right so therefore so are Labour, He also told us we were going to close down schools and hospitals and threaten stability. So either that was all complete rubbish in which case why should the public trust a word he says or can he give us the list of schools and hospitals he is going to close down and while you are at it tell us why he has suddenly decided cutting inheritance tax no longer puts the economic stability at risk.

3) Wouldn't this upset the Labour party members who see it as just a tax to smash the rich. What happened to his promises of listening etc.

4) So much for strong principled Gordon, Easily pushed around by the Conservatives whenevr they feel like it.

I suspect though Gordon will actually raise the threshold substantially, because he is a "strategic genius", perhaps the level will be up to £500,000 In which case most of the above still applies.

[Votedave]

Very prudent approach by George Osborne. We don't want a repeat of the aftermath of the 1988 Budget when taxes were cut excessively, consumer demand increased, inflation went up and interest rates went up.
I am in favour of lower taxes but the importance of prioriting economic stability is paramount.

[TomTom]

Very prudent approach by George Osborne. We don't want a repeat of the aftermath of the 1988 Budget when taxes were cut excessively, consumer demand increased, inflation went up and interest rates went up.

There speaks one too young to remember.

The interest rates were LOW because a petro-currency STERLING was shadowing the D-MARK prior to German Unification in 1990.

The tax cuts were not the problem - the abolition of dual mortgage relief was. It was a mad rush to buy property before tax law changed and low interest which inflated property into a speculative bubble.

That is what caused the problem - and when German reunified and refused to REVALUE the D-MARK within the ERM it caused Merlin to come under speculative attack.

You cannot mix up a sequence of events and apply them 20 years later. You would be far better looking at 1931 - first Kreditanstalt Wien, then the Danat, then the Run on Sterling.

August 2007 - IKB Bank bailed out in the biggest rescue since 1931, now SachsenLB in trouble with US CDOs.....BNP looking a bit peaky......how long before HSBC or RBS tell us what they will have to write off ?

Pumping more liquidity into a banking system grown fat and bloated on excess liquidity ? How about an inflation forecast.

This economy will be quite a different place before a Conservative Government is elected again and taxes whether "green" blue or red might not be the way to win votes

[Thomas Bridge]

Tony Hannon wrote:

Here's the full list of private schools in Ireland. 13 outside Dublin - 27 in the Dublin area.

http://www.irishlinks.co.uk/private-schools-ireland.htm

This is, as I said, "Virtually no private schools" in a country of 4m people.

Thomas Bridge - you're wrong. Tests before entry to a public secondary school NEVER determines right of entry but gives guidance on the level of class once in the school - if there are enough people to have seperate classes.

For a start, I can identify immediately some private schools that are not on the list you posted.

Secondly - maybe things have changed since 1987 but when I sat the entrance exam for my (Christian Brothers) state school there was a distinct underlying theme that the results of the entrance exam would be used for selection. In addition, I know the Loreto (free) convent in my home town operated a similar policy, as does the Presentation Brothers school.

Secondly, the URL you give lists 50 schools. Of which 29 are in Dublin - given that 13000 students sat the Leaving Cert in Dublin last year, that would suggest that the Private schools in Dublin make up around 30% of the candidates sitting in Dublin - that's hardly insignificant, though I grant it doesn't neccessarily prove that in the rest of the country there is a huge tradition of private schooling.

[Tony Hannon]

Thomas - yes, things have changed since 1987. They've changed a lot.

The exams that are sometimes taken by schools don't determine entrance but the level once in the school. This varies by subject. A 1st Year student could be in a higher class for Irish and a lower class for English or Math before electing what paper to take at the beginning of 3rd Year. Those being the three core subjects which offer Higher, Ordinary and Foundation level. (Everything else having Higher and Ordinary level).

The changes happened from about 1990 onwards - you sat what was called the Inter-certificate whereas I sat the Junior Cert. You may be surprised to learn that there's a new year, introduced in 1995 after Junior Cert - called Transition year. I'm not being snide, therefore or trying to make you feel older when I say there have been many changes over the past 20 years.

Since Private schools are much smaller in terms of numbers I really doubt your 30% figure in Dublin. I know several schools on the list which exist to have people re-take their leaving cert after having a poor result first time out - the numbers in them are tiny.

I do admit I was surprised at how many private schools there were but still contend, for the country as a whole, which is what I referenced originally it's an incredibly small figure.

At the very least - I wasn't "talking out the back of my head"!!!

[G.S. Ranola]

I like labour but this time I will vote for conservative......They have better idea probably the new and the best idea and I beleived they are serious....I gave them my vote