Is Britain policing or appeasing Islamic extremism?

That's effectively the question being asked by Paul Goodman MP.  Paul will take part in a Policy Exchange seminar this lunchtime that will discuss the recent decision of the West Midlands police to refer Channel 4 to Ofcom.  The West Midlands police made the decision after they had decided not to prosecute a number of Muslims featured in a Dispatches programme entitled 'Undercover Mosque', broadcast earlier this year (Google video).  The programme uncovered a number of quotations including:

“No-one loves the kuffaar, no-one loves the kuffaar, not a single person here from the Muslims loves the kuffaar, whether those kuffaar are from the UK or the US. We love the people of Islam and we hate the people of kufr, we hate the kuffaar.”

“Whoever changes his religion from Islam to anything else – kill him in the Islamic state.”

“Do you practise homosexuality with men?  Take that homosexual man and throw him off the mountain.”

“I don’t agree with those individuals [the 7/7 bombers], but at the same time they are closer to me than those criminals of the kufr.”

“He’s better than a million George Bushes, Osama Bin Laden, and he’s better than a thousand Tony Blairs, because he’s a Muslim.”

The West Midlands police decided that these quotations may have been taken out of context and decided that no action should be taken against those who made them.  That decision will seem extraordinary to some but more extraordinary was the decision of the police and CPS to refer the programme makers to Ofcom on the grounds that they may have stirred up racial hatred.

In a letter to the Home Secretary Paul Goodman seeks to highlight the danger that in behaving in this way our police and law enforcement agencies are choosing to deal with extremist voices by effectively appeasing them.  Mr Goodman's letter (which is attached here_as_a_pdf) concludes with these words:

"This referral is likely to encourage extremists, discourage moderates (including those who appeared on the programme), damage public confidence in the CPS and West Midlands Police, compromise media freedom and undermine the Government's stated community cohesion policy.  As you know, Ruth Kelly, the former Communities Secretary, said last year that "our strategy of funding and engagement must shift significantly towards those organisations that are taking a proactive leadership role in tackling extremism and defending our shared values. It is only by defending our values that we will prevent extremists radicalising future generations of terrorists."

Comments

[Dr Snoddy]

With all the lilly liverd spineless politicians from all the main parties,Lib/Dems, UKIP, Conservatives and the Scottish New Labour. It is no wonder that the people in England are turnning to The B,N,P and the English Democrats

[Traditional Tory]

I'm not sure we want to support the BNP or the English Democrats (whoever they may be) but I am quite sure that if Mr Griffin said anything similar to the words of these maniacs he would rapidly find himself in court.

[Henry Mayhew - fruitcake / delusional / closet racist]

How are we lily-livered Dr Snoddy? We are all just about to have a good moan about the Police's right-on referral. Where UKIP may differ from the other parties is that we are keen supporters of Islam as one of the world's great religions. The government of the UAE is the best that I have ever come across; tolerant where it is right to be tolerant, firm where it should show firmness. Muslims are lucky to have such a worthwhile belief system. A lot of what the understandably ignorant don't like are cultural practices from somewhat unsuccessful cultures within Islam.

[Peter Hatchet]

I'm afraid its appeasing.

Case in point: West Midlands Police trying to convince the CPS that Channel 4 had a case to answer on inciting racial hatred (how ridiculous is that?) for producing a "Dispatches" programme investigating extremism in Mosques.

Particularly ironic since Channel 4 had voluntarily given the tapes to the police because they were so shocked at some of the hatred and extremism that was being preached in the Mosques, they felt it was their civic duty to pass their findings over to the authorities.

[Peter Hatchet]

Thing is, what are we doing about it?

Where is the outrage at West Midlands Police who've taken this decision?

Apart from ourselves, who else is asking the difficult questions?

[Henry Mayhew - fruitcake / delusional / closet racist]

Sorry I don't know how to do HTML quotes, but check this from the West Midlands Police press release:

The police investigation concentrated on three speakers and their comments in the programme. CPS reviewing lawyer Bethan David considered 56 hours of media footage of which only a small part was used in the programme. She said: "The splicing together of extracts from longer speeches appears to have completely distorted what the speakers were saying.

Now, that is funny. If Channel 4 have been lying through their teeth, I for one shall be delighted if they are banged to rights. Let it roll.

[601]

I am really disappointed in you Editor.

Why do you think you know better than The West Midlands police?

Channel 4 used only a small part out of 56 hours of film. You know how broadcasters edit,edit and edit some more until they get the results they want. And you've fallen for it.

[David Strauss]

Appeasing I'm afraid.

I remember the demonstration about the Danish cartoons with people being allowed to wave inciting placards while the police looked on but then threatened a white van man who stopped to protest.

The police are infested with polictal correctness and that is the fault of the politicans from alll sides.

[TomTom]

Jack Straw as Home Secretary set the police on this course of confrontation with mainstream population and courting of extremists. He will continue this in his new role.

The patterns of infiltration are to secure the police and to undermine public faith in the police as an impartial institution, ditto for the judiciary. The Straw Era has been very successful in this.

The 68ers are in power throughout Europe if not directly in government, then in media or opinion-forming cliques. Their ascent has been matched by the descent of their nation-states into mediocrity and being surpassed by Asia.

The police "service" is no longer a police force and has lost control of the streets preferring to preach a PC gospel of salon socialism whih is the path to career advancement - Sir Ian Blair being a prime example.

The public is an encumbrance to a modern police career but fortunately it can be cowed through intimidation and threat of action, as it has been through use of driving offences, cameras, and arrests of householders for resisting intruders.

The police are a political police serving the party, and the main concern of the party is the fear of being ousted by the mainstream public and the use of the police and media to suppress dissent or the threat of civic action.

[CCHQ Spy]

Why are you having a go at the Editor, 601? He's only covering Paul Goodman MP's initiative (which I support).

[Sean Fear]

If you're making a one hour programme, then inevitably, you're going to have to condense what you've filmed.

I would be amazed if Channel 4 (of all organisations) actually sought to stir up racial hatred by pretending that extremism flourishes in some mosques (which is hardly implausible).

So it does look very much like cultural cringe to me.

[englandism]

Drill down through this story. The officer responsible for the investigation is who, exactly? Has he successfully prosecuted his employer on previous occasions and is he currently suing his employer for fast tracking him to a senior position?

His complaint is that his fellow officers do not sufficiently respect him because he has been fast tracked. An, allegedly, 'racist' activity.

The information is there on t'interweb but some things cannot be mentioned.

Nope, sod the BNP and UKIP, all I am talking about is a proper debate based upon the facts presented.

[Simon Newman]

When we think of appeasement we think of Chamberlain - Chamberlain appeased Nazism, but there was no question that he supported Nazism or wished to encourage its spread.
Appeasement is a phenonomenon born of fear and self-perceived weakness in the face of a threat.

It's important for conservatives to realise that cultural Marxists like Mayor Ken Livingstone and (AFAIK) West Midlands Assistant Chief Constable Anil Patani are NOT appeasers. Ken Livingstone is not afraid of radical Islam, he wishes to encourage its spread. Cultural Marxists explicitly seek the destruction of western Enlightenment civilisation, and radical Islam is now seen as the most powerful weapon towards achieving this end.

Secondly, there is a large tranche of rather unhappy leftists like (I think) Metropolitan police commissioner Ian Blair and Jack Straw who hold both cultural Marxist ideology and incompatible liberal values in their heads at the same time, leading to confused and often contradictory statements. This can be characterised as appeasement, but it's more complex than that.

Finally there are the senior security service types like Dame Stella Rimington who mostly don't adhere to c-M ideology, but see the issue as one of management and containment, by analogy with the IRA. Their attitudes are probably closest to the Chamberlain appeasement model.

[Henry Mayhew]

Englandism, you are a pathetic little coward. Come and say hello face to face at your convenience.

[Jomo]

Nulab has corrupted every institution. Career progression in the public service depends on acceptance of the party’s political agenda. Anyone who says something sensible about the reality of the national mess is immediately repudiated or accused of lurching to the right. The usual slogans ending in “ist” or “phobia” are trooped out to discredit political enemies.

The choice is either to go along with the narrative or face the sneers of the fellow travellers and useful idiots in the BBC and the press. Unfortunately, the “heirs to Blair” have bought this agenda. Is hasn’t stopped the attacks only lulled them into a false sense of security.

Perhaps it is time for some policies based on principle?

[Frank McGarry]

It is not Islam we have to fear. It is the perverted form of Islam known as Wahabism. It is this intolerant creed that is followed by al Qu'eda and related islamofascist groups. They are wonderfully non-PC in that they are sexist, racist, homophobic and anti-democratic.

But is political correctness that stops the police dealing effectively with these monsters. It is easier to attack Channel 4 than to arrest a hate-preaching imam.

By discouraging open and honest debate political correctness is itself the enemy also. Precisely because this issue of Wahabism is so difficult to deal with without appearing to be as racist and intolerant as the Wahabi fanatics themselves, most of the police and the politicians and the pressmen prefer to look the other way. We should be grateful to Channel 4 - and to Paul Goodman MP - for having the courage to address it head on.

[Sally Roberts]

Frank McGarry - thank you for that educated and sensible comment! I was just scrolling down and despairing that - as per usual - the comments were coming from people simply trying to "bait" one another; when I was cheered by reading your post! You are absolutely right that the problem arises with this perversion of Islam known as Wahhabism - for which, I am afraid, we have to thank Saudi Arabia! Wahhabists of course do not regard "moderate" Muslims as being of their faith at all - indeed they lump them in with the rest of us "Kuffar" as ripe for conversion or extermination! It is up to politicians such as Paul Goodman to educate us as to what is happening so that we can try to combat the extremism which damages all Muslims as well as the rest of our society.

[Andrew Ian Dodge]

I wonder what these dolts are planning to say to the families of those who die in the next terrorist attack.

Someone needs to send the head of WMP a copy of The Islamist. The extremists must be laughing in their tea about this whole matter.

[TomTom]

Wahhabism is Saudi arabia's family creed....Saudi money lubricates Western politicians.....it is highly unlikely that any of them will want to upset the House of Saud until they face the threat of destruction from the Western public

[Angelo Basu]

David Strauss- re the white van man at the Danish cartoon protests, I thought the same at the time but given that a number of the protesters (including I think the particular individuals the white van man tried to stop) have been successfully prosecuted, it looks now to have been sensitive policing preventing the van driver from inflaming the situation and enabling the police to get more evidence by giving the protesters more rope to hang themselves by.

[Derek]

It is interesting to see that the muslim clerics are using the defence that their remarks were taken out of context. Apparently it is ok to say "kill the unbelievers/homosexuals SAYS THE KORAN", but not if you leave out the last bit. I'm sure Nick Griffin will be watching this case very closely. In future we will be able to say what we like, as long as we can find a source to quote from.

These are exactly the problems you get trying to enforce curtailments on free speech. Most of it becomes a field day for the lawyers.

[Henry Mayhew]

The al Saud pacified Arabia in the 18th and 20th centuries with Wahabbi assistance. At present they are arresting troublemakers and banging them up - 340 in one go when I was in Al Khobar in December. They are funding, once again, the rebuilding of Lebanon to provide a counterweight to Syria and Iran, and are trying to open lines of dialogue to Israel. They are rearming to oppose Iran in the Gulf and providing important support to our more palatable allies on its western coast.

King Abdullah is attempting to reform a state that had become disunited and more corrupt during the final years of Fahd's reign. He is an intelligent, humane man who should be supported. Arabs in general, but particularly Gulf arabs whose governments are very friendly to us, are shocked by our appeasement of Israel, as am I. I prefer King Abdullah to Binyamin Netanyahu, and believe he has more respect for us.

[George Hinton]

There is certainly a perception in the public's eye, that the guardians of our security are more concerned with being PC, pandering to apparant extremists, rather than ensuring that our laws and more inportantly, mores, are protected and supported.
The C4 case raised by Paul Goodman is a classic. Clearly C4 would have to condense many hours of filming to get at the nuggets of gold that it wished to reveal. I notice that no-one at West Midlands Police is denying that the words were said, or that they were incompatible with our mores, rather, the argument is that they were taken out of context. So, to paraphrase is illegal, otherwise you must quote literally. That rather spoils the police's habit of making contemporaneous notes after the event and in concert.
As has been said above, we are now in the thrall of the marxists, people whose only wish is to destroy the culture and history of this country, at any price, by any means, in support of their perverted ideals.
If we can no longer trust the police to actually do the base policing job and protect society and apply its mores, then our consent is no longer required. That then suggests, that our society is moving towards autarchy, with the political leadership increasingly ignoring the electorate and making their decisions on behalf of the people. Whither domcracy?.
What is quite clear is that we must reclaim the high moral ground and demand that our politicians listen to us, that the servants of the people do the bidding of the people, and that those that seek to overthrow or ignore the mores and laws of this country are punished and/or thrown out.
West Mids Police need to recognise that they cannot appease extremists for ever, eventually they bite, responding to weakness, and seizing the opportunity to advance their case.

To all British People - Carpe Diem.

[mark]

Seems completely reasonable that Channel 4 should be expected to show the whole 56 hours of footage doesn't it. If no editing is allowed then we will be seeing unedited footage on the BBC of all Conservative announcements, won't we!

[Peter Hatchet]

"“I don’t agree with those individuals [the 7/7 bombers], but at the same time they are closer to me than those criminals of the kufr.”

““Whoever changes his religion from Islam to anything else – kill him in the Islamic state.”

How can that possibly be misinterpreted by any degree of editing?

Unless the Imman said before in each case, "And then this extremist said...." followed by "...which of course I totally disagree with and we should never listen to".

Unfortunately, from viewing the programme, it was pretty clear the Immans meant what they said.

[mark]

Another thought, I wonder how long it will be before the white British of this country can claim asylum abroad on the grounds that they are in danger in this country due to the state persecuting them in favour of others.

[englandism]

"The priority for West Midlands Police has been to investigate the documentary and its making with as much rigour as the extremism the programme sought to portray."

West Midlands Police

Sorry if it looks agenda shaped it is probably an agenda. I would say the same about someone who has form for crying sexism being appointed to investigate the Anti Sexist League.

@Henry Mayhew
What on earth has rattled your cage, old bean? Me having a pop at Kernow?

[Buckers]

Dr Snoddy - the BNP are above all a SOCIALIST party. If you wish to canvass support for them I suggest you do it somewhere else.

Radical Islam has been appeased for yonks by the British state and it has recently begun to bite the hand that feeds it. Why on earth were the Omar Bakri's of this world given asylum here when they stirred up so much trouble in their own backyards of the Middle East.

[englandism]

Any road up. This is how The Guardian is handling it today:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ajmal_masroor/2007/08/fuelling_fury.html

[Henry Mayhew -]

@Englandism, I don't see the point of pseudonyms at the best of times but if you use one and still say "some things cannot be mentioned" and "Sod UKIP", then I will consider you to be both cowardly (proven) and rude (proven). I accept that you may not be little but would need to see evidence to the contrary. Luckily I did not know you had had a go at Kernow, or I would have offered to come round to yours rather than giving you the option.

Actually, only joking. We are moving our boat business from Cornwall to Norfolk because we can't get the land to expand in Corners - already made nine skilled staff redundant as a result. The council and SWRDA doesn't give a fig. Talk about cosy leftism. They turn up mob-handed to meetings in their short-sleeved shirts, ties, and beer bellies and spout hilarious metropolitan pieties about how they deserve a salary and pension from some task force or Development Agency, but can't help with the bureaucracy that stops us expanding.

I have got one of the top middle-eastern, government-owned boat builders going down to see our works on Sunday to evaluate a JV (the CEO). He is going to see an almost empty shed. By the way, the Conservatives are nowhere in Cornwall, a must-win.

[Patsy Sergeant]

I am afraid I agree with the majority of other posters, that yes this craven government has been appeasing rather than policing. I also agree with Sally Roberts and Frank McGarry, who as Sally says outlines the specifics very clearly.

An interesting fact is that, although this government is scared of actually addressing the problem of Wahabism - policing, the country that this particular brand of Islam originates from, is only too zealous in policing!

[Jack Black]

"Is Britain policing or appeasing Islamic extremism"?

A better and more appropriate question would have been:

"Have Britain's political, PC and media establishment been policing or appeasing Islamic extremism over the last half a century"?

The poor and working-class British communities would have loved to have policed the alien peoples that the top folk determined to force upon them. But a series of punitive, Brit-bashing race laws actively discouraged them from doing so.

So now we are where we are.

Mr Goodman is allowed to ask an elephant in the room question such as this. No one, apart from the PC Crowd and the odd Muslim, is going to complain when a Jewish gentleman asks it.

Over the years, it would have been nice if such as he had not routinely scolded the disenfranchised Brit at the other end of the social scale, when he was asking exactly similar questions.

[englandism]

Hello Henry Mayhew

Only the Cornish bits that are banging on about independence and Celtic brotherhood.

Sorry about the sod thing. I spend too much time in Guardian land tilting at the:

'Talk about cosy leftism. They turn up mob-handed to meetings in their short-sleeved shirts, ties, and beer bellies and spout hilarious metropolitan pieties about how they deserve a salary and pension from some task force or Development Agency, but can't help with the bureaucracy that stops us expanding.'

Tendency.

I have voted UKIP when the Tories were at their most dismal but now it is time to come home.

Pseudonyms. If I used my real name I could be traced to my home address in a matter of seconds and email correspondence suggests that this would not be particularly beneficial.

www.englandism.com -Resistance is fertile.

[G. Tingey]

Appeasement.

But then most peolple appease religions (not just islam) all the time.

Islam is merely where vhristianity was 622 years ago, and it shows.

But we can't afford to wait.

[Mr Angry]

The hard factual evidence continues to mount that very clearly demonstrates that by Labour Government diktat there is now one law for Muslims and another for everyone else. This is totally unacceptable and I am glad that at least Paul Goodman has the honesty and courage to say so. Today's decision not to prosecute for contempt of court a female muslim juror for listening to her walkman during a criminal trial, a trial for murder no less, adds again to that evidence base.

Sadly with every day that passes we slip further down the slippery slope of dhimmisism whilst simultaneously pandering to the false narrative of victimhood perpetrated by Islamic extremists.

We need a full, frank and open debate, untainted by political correctness and false accusations of islamophobia, about the double standards allowed to British Muslims and then we need to firmly ensure that all British citizens are held to the same standards and expectations and that those are the standards and expectations inherent in Britain, not anywhere else at all.

[Simon Newman]

Mr Angry:
"We need a full, frank and open debate, untainted by political correctness and false accusations of islamophobia..."

You would need to exclude cultural Marxists and Islamists from the debate, then. The parties with most to lose from such a debate are hardly not going to want to stick their oar in.

[Vol Abroad]

Appeasing??? Too soft. This isn't appeasing, it's enforcing. It's bad enough that many of these same extremists are held up as pillars of the "cohered community" - pillars propped with taxpayer cash. But when exposed, the journalists get investigated - that's truly terrifying.

If C4 were in error and the Imams are that bothered, let them sue for libel.

[TomTom]

So you can wear an iPod and ignore proceedings in court so long as you have no time for Kafir Courts you will not be prosecuted for contempt.

Muslims cannot display any form of contempt for English Courts which the judicial system can recognise as contempt.

Thank you Baroness Scotland - you are getting to be a Lord Goldsmith

[George Hinton]

The issue of the walkman in court is very simply resolved.
Treat all muslims as second class citizens, no votes, no residency, no human rights, no charity standard for their religion, no free NHS or social services. BUT, the quid pro pro, they must abide by the laws of the land, in toto, or forfeit right of abode.

[Ken Stevens]

TomTom | August 16, 19:12
"So you can wear an iPod and ignore proceedings in court so long as you have no time for Kafir Courts you will not be prosecuted for contempt"

It's not contemptuous to listen to Sharia Twain
;-)

[Angharad]

The answer is the British National Party.

Everything else is designed to crush Britain under an Islamic state.

Fact!

[Ted]

What's going on?
http://www.uktabloid.co.uk/Main%20News.html

[Matthew Revell]

@englandism: Using a pseudonym won't stop people from finding your home address. As soon as I saw your domain name I was able to find what appears to be your home address.

Unless you specifically state that you're an individual (in the case of a .uk domain) or register with a provider who offers a privacy option (in the case of .com, .net, etc), any information that you use to register a domain name is publicly available.

So, if your privacy is important to you, I suggest you speak to your domain provider about obscuring your address etc.

[Henry Mayhew]

@Englandism. Thanks. Interesting that you think now is the time to come home. I've moved home.

[James Whittall]

Muslims are being appeased by this gutless Labour administration but even worse is the fact that David Cameron and his new lilly livered excuse for a Tory party are saying nothing about it.
I have voted Conservative in every election since 1992, since the first time I could vote, and was until December a fully paid up member.
I have realised like many traditional Tories that the BNP better reflect my views and are the only party willing to tackle issues like the threat of islam head on without fear of political correctness.
I am now a member of the BNP and will be voting for them in future elections and devoting my time to actively campaigning on their behalf along with a number of local ex-Tories.
Buckers states the BNP is "a socialist party" in a vain attempt to subvert Dr Snoddy's point, in actual fact the current BNP manifesto is closer to the Conservative party of old than todays Tory party.
Truly tough on crime, an end to immigration, an end to positive descrimination and political correctness, withdrawl from the EU and Tax Cuts!
Where is the socialism in that?
Shropshire has always been considered a Tory heartland but now is one of the BNP's fastest growing areas for new members.
We see the destruction of our inner cities and do not want the same forced upon us here in rural Shropshire.
Blair and Brown have sold us down the river and Cameron wants to do nothing but ape his actions and court the muslim vote, well not in my name.

[sheik yer'mami]

COMMENT OVERWRITTEN BY THE EDITOR.

[Antony]

Mr Cameron has no intention of seriously dealing with the menace of Islamic extremism.A bit of tough-talk from time to time, is all we can expect from a man who's turned the once great Conservative Party into a laughing stock.
Alas, I shall not be renewing my party membership.

[Bernard Forrester]

In agree entirely with James Whittall and Antony. I threw away my membership when the moon-eyed, Blair-apeing toff took up with Toynbee and the far left, and have sinced joined a party that isn't afraid to tackle the very serious problems that the likes of Cameron refuse to address.

[Kate G.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI5WoXpmPiM

[Arthur]

"Those seeking to uphold our freedoms"

Quote:
"In a monstrous inversion of our values, those seeking to uphold our freedoms against Muslim fundamentalism are now the target of state repression.

http://www.express.co.uk/ourcomments/view/16913

Are Camerons Tories seeking to uphold our freedoms?

[Tony G.]

"The best way to take control over a people and control them
utterly, is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode
rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible
reductions. In this way the people will not see those rights
and freedoms being removed until past the point at which
these changes cannot be reversed."
- Adolf Hitler

[Brit Pat]

Britain under the Dual Jack boots of the EU Soviet.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865

and Sharia Law
http://balder.org/avisartikler/Open-Letter-To-Danish-Prime-Minister-Anders-Fogh-Rasmussen.php

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003027.html

[Arthur]

COMMENT OVERWRITTEN BY THE EDITOR.

TROLLING IN FAVOUR OF THE BNP WON'T BE TOLERATED.