Is a clerical error at CCHQ more newsworthy than the lowest cancer survival rates in Europe?

I'm about to go and do BBC News 24 on the hospitals row.  In case you hadn't heard, the Tory list of district hospitals threatened with closure wasn't 100% accurate.  Most unhelpfully a Conservative MP, Henry Bellingham, has criticised the placement of his own local hospital on the list and this has got the BBC very excited.  It's obviously a mistake that shouldn't have been made.  One of the few things an opposition party can control is competent management of its own affairs.  The bottom line, however, is that the Tory campaign on NHS cuts is staying in the news.  My guess is that more voters will be left angry at Labour's mismanagement of the NHS than will be concerned about a clerical error in CCHQ.  A clerical error is certainly much less significant than the news that - ten years into Labour rule - Britain has one of the lowest cancer survival rates in Europe.  My understanding is that the new CCHQ list may identify more hospitals at risk of closure or facing cuts.

By way of footnote: When I was at the Bank of England there was a 'done by, checked by' or 'four eyes' rule for the drawing up of any public document.  CCHQ should adopt the same rule.

4.25pm: Reform have a briefing on Britain's woeful record on cancer.

Comments

[malcolm]

My thoughts exactly. After a few days of relatively fair coverage from the BBC after the Redwood fiasco they've reverted to type.
Of course mistakes like this shouldn't happen but it would wrong if it drowns out (with the help of the BBC) the whole issue.

[HF]

But it is the damage to our "competence" image in the minds of voters. We know that the BBC are against us, so stop providing the ammo.

I thought that CCHQ "research" folk were deployed to each shadow cabinet person so that would mean Lansley's team. If he cannot establish proper checks on a little team how can he expect to manage a dept?

Very sloppy.

[Scotty]

Malcolm, the BBC seems to be backtracking quite a bit on their earlier.

There is a hell of a media battle going on today between the Conservatives and Labour via the BBC, Coulson's influence is really showing.
It is like watching a game of tennis, the Conservatives dropped a point with naming the wrong hospital, some NHS trusts coming out to rubbish the claims as well. Cameron played a bit of blinder with figures which trigger a consultation on smaller district hospitals and Units.
But best of all Brown has managed to find a more patronising female Health Minister than Nanny Hewitt, incredible!

[Steve]

It's poor and not the first time. In the 2005 election, figures about MRSA in hospitals were wrong, causing all manner of local problems and embarrassment.

And more to the point, blunting our attack.

It can't be that difficult. Buck up.

[Scotty]

*coverage*

[Luke]

what do Chiefs of Staff do? Surely they should oversee this kind of stuff?

[Peter Coe]

I disagree. This again goes to the issue many of the contributors yesterday mentioned: that Cameron is all about gimmick rather than substance.

The problem with a dodgy list is that it undermines an already fundamentally dodgy issue for the Tories, because this isn't actually about "closures" at all: it's whether the existing provision of health services meets the evolving needs of patients.

District Hospitals increasingly do not - and a party serious about government (as opposed to a party trying to become a competent opposition) would acknowledge that. Oppose change if you generally believe that health provision should never evolve; but stop attempting these silly, dumbed-down sound-bite campaigns that we expect from the Liberal Democrats but deserve so much more.

[Ali Gledhill]

The Tories have grabbed the headlines recently - far more than usual. Labour are doing very little, while Tories are churning out policy debates keeping headlines for days.

This error is stupid and shouldn't have happened, but it's really a non-story. One must trust news viewers to recognise the scale of getting one hospital out of over twenty wrong, compared to never-ending reports of Labour NHS mismanagement.

Some people are too quick to criticise over tiny mistakes like this; I'm sure those involved have already got over it.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Anyone surprised?

[David Boothroyd]

If the Labour opposition had made the same mistake in 1996 the story would have been 'Labour attack backfires' just like it is now, so I don't think you have cause to complain. Whoever is doing the research job should have done it better.

[malcolm]

David, Labour told all sorts of lies when in opposition most notably about Tory plans for pensions.So weak had the Tories become in 1996 even lies like that were reported half heartedly and caused Labour few problems.
Scotty, I see what you mean about the BBC backtracking.I'm rather suprised!
Justin, anyone suprised about what?

[banboris]

Here here David - but Tim has got paranoid about he media - it's all their fault the Party is losing.

[banboris]

btw - News 24 are covering the cancer story.

[Mountjoy]

Alas something like a clerical error is like viagra to the Beeb. What next, "Tory Blogger mispells word on blog - SHOCK"?

[Votedave]

Just another load of trivial piffle from the liberal left media.

[David Boothroyd]

If we're getting into parties lying about the plans of other parties back in the 1990s then I would like to introduce the bunkum that was "Labour's tax bombshell", a total lie in which a Mr D.W.D. Cameron played a central part.

[Scotty]

"Oppose change if you generally believe that health provision should never evolve; but stop attempting these silly, dumbed-down sound-bite campaigns"
Excuse me, but this government pumped billions into the NHS to fund targets for you guessed it *statistics* for a headline! Trying to keep local hospitals and units open to provide a safer provision of care is not silly or dumbed down campaigning.
At the end of the day health provision should not evolve to a position where people are faced with a longer journey to receive the most basic emergency care.

[Stephen Tolkinghorne]

"Labour's tax bombshell"

With the highest tax-burden Britain has ever known, heaped upon us all by the egregious Gordon Brown, it could hardly be called a 'lie'. Actually, very much the TRUTH.

New Labour, New Taxes.

[Old Hack]

My experience with PCTs is that they can be very politically aware.

In other words, if it means lying or denying to secure a funding stream or justify an appointment there are Chief Execs and politically appointed PCT Chairs who will do just that.

I suspect that this is not the last time we'll see or hear from local health authorities in this debate and we'll have to check our facts and then got stick by our guns when people start fibbing.

Listening to Radio 5 Live an hour ago, they say they did a ring round and got a series of denials from various Trust spokesmen about possible closures of local maternity units named by us.

Well the spokespeople would say that wouldn't they and perhaps the BBC is not exactly exhibiting the most rigorous journalistic zeal in asking these people in the first place.

So this is where Mr Coulson earns his wad...

[Andrew Woodman]

I has a sixth sense this morning when I read this, that there would be a mistake to make it backfire. Why is it, the party employs so many incompetents at CCHQ?

[TomTom]

Sky had it with John Radcliffe contacting them; Altrincham Hospital and several others. Wouldn't it be an idea to liaise with local Conservative MPs and PPCs before going live ?

They should have gone to Grantham Hospital and challenged the local Labour MP to oppose closing it !

[Richard]

Also note the subtly-brainwashing choice of historical news item for the 'On This Day' column: "Cameroon lake kills hundreds"...

[malcolm]

er David, have you so bought into the new Labour project that you can no longer tell the differences between truth and lies?
John Smith to his credit was open about the tax rises planned by Labour in 1992. The 'tax bombshell' was quite true as I'm sure you know. The stuff peddled about Tory pension plans (peddled by a certain Mr G. Brown) in 1997 were lies as I'm sure you know as well. You've nothing to gain by being dishonest on a Tory blog so why do it?

[Old Kent Boy]

Old Hack Spot is spot on

PCTs deny any closure until it happens. Seen exactly the same thing in my patch. I would not be at all surprised if number 10 has not been on to them all telling them to deny it. Possibly with little reward if they do.

I am sure the list put out be CCHQ is of those that are "consulting" on "recofiguration", not necessarily definite cuts. But if there are definitely no cuts going to happen, why consult...

[Old Kent Boy]

Old Hack Spot is spot on

PCTs deny any closure until it happens. Seen exactly the same thing in my patch. I would not be at all surprised if number 10 has not been on to them all telling them to deny it. Possibly with little reward if they do.

I am sure the list put out be CCHQ is of those that are "consulting" on "recofiguration", not necessarily definite cuts. But if there are definitely no cuts going to happen, why consult...

[Richard]

"At the end of the day health provision should not evolve to a position where people are faced with a longer journey to receive the most basic emergency care."

That pretty much sums it up. We pay our taxes, why should we have to put up with longer journeys which may literally mean the difference between life and death? I wish the likes of Polly Toynbee and co who defend these measures would justify this very real problem. Ah, but of course, if new hospitals are opening or hospitals aren't closing in Labour-voting areas then it doesn't matter. The Southern middle classes must suffer and their money must be diverted elsewhere.

[Scotty]

"I am sure the list put out be CCHQ is of those that are "consulting" on "recofiguration", not necessarily definite cuts. But if there are definitely no cuts going to happen, why consult..."

That is how I understood CCHQ came up with this list, the fact that individual Health Trusts have been *advised* to deny the threat of closure is smoke and mirrors from the Labour media operation. So as you say, "why consult"?

[Effie]

Just watched you on TV Tim, how do you square your defence of Cameron with the facts?
Firstly, Tory MP Henry Bellingham has found himself having to apologise unreservedly to staff at his local hospital in King's Lynn, which he said had been wrongly included on the list David Cameron had drawn up. Cameron does not even take the trouble to consult his local MP before he jumps in with both feet.
Quite a lot of the Trusts have criticised David Cameron and said he had made several mistakes in his assessments.
The North Bristol NHS Trust - which covers Frenchay and Southmead Hospitals - said Conservative claims that A&E services at Frenchay were under threat are “absolute rubbish"
A&E unit at Frenchay is to be closed and a new one built at Southmead Hospital five miles away, where there is only a minor injury unit at the moment.
Oxford Radcliffe Hospitals NHS Trust, which is responsible for Horton Hospital in Banbury, said there is "no threat”to its A&E unit.
Sandwell and West Birmingham Hospitals NHS Trust said there was
“no threat” to the accident and emergency department or the maternity unit at City Hospital in Birmingham.
The Shrewsbury & Telford Hospital NHS Trust, there is “no threat” to maternity services at the Princess Royal Hospital in Telford.
Other NHS trusts have also contradicted the Conservative leader’s claims. Whilst another hospital on the Tory list does not even have a maternity or A&E facility.
This is sloppy research and it speaks volumes about the state the Conservative Party is in under the leadership of David Cameron, if this is what he calls being back and being in charge, I think another spell in thee South of France is well in order.
I think a bare knuckle fight, this is more like kid-gloves.

[Scotty]

Effie, after the way that this government has politicised the civil service and the military to name but two organisations, can you assure that the same thing has not happen here?

[David Sergeant]

Henry Billingham appears to be an all too typical example of a panicky, selfish, incompetant politician which inhabits the Tory backbenches. He could have easilly got his point over without making CCHQ look silly.

[Think about it]

Scotty wrote:
"the fact that individual Health Trusts have been *advised* to deny the threat of closure"

Scotty, to be a fact you must have evidence to prove it, and this would be explosive evidence to show a Labour cover-up, BBC collusion and would lead to a massive boost for Cameron.

But let's stop playing games. You're just lying, aren't you?

[Scotty]

"can you assure *us*"

[HF]

I disagree with Tim, these are massive cockups. Lansley concedes that Altrincham should have been Trafford. THUD.

Lansley says that Bellingham is wrong about Kings Lynn. FFS

So we now have the voters believing that either one or another Conservative is wrong about Kings Lynn. DUH.

It just gets worse. This is without the PCTs disputing the figures. FFS it should be a basic rule in the CCHQ/shadow cabinet that if you are going to talk about a fellow tory MPs area that you advise them AHEAD of time.

Lansley, you maybe right on the facts on Kings Lynn but your people ballsed up the prior checking process oh and also got Altringham wrong. Two failing grades. PS Bellingham should also have talked to Lansley before opening his mouth. Lansley was very wrong not to have consulted him but 2 wrongs dont make a right.

[Ellee]

Newsnight is highlighting this story tonight and says other hospitals have denied their services are under threat too:
http://elleeseymour.com/2007/08/21/why-cant-researchers-get-their-facts-right/

[Ellee]

Newsnight is highlighting this story tonight and says other hospitals have denied their services are under threat too:
http://elleeseymour.com/2007/08/21/why-cant-researchers-get-their-facts-right/

[Think about it]

Don't worry Ellie, it wasn't an error but a cover up by Labour. Scotty has evidence to show that the Health Trusts were advised to deny any threat of closure.

Oh, how the headlines will change tomorrow, when Scotty's evidence gets out there.

Well done Scotty.

[Felixstowe fiddler]

Don't blame the media in general or the BBC in particular - this was just one more typical example of a failing Central Office.
Don't forget, the statistics on hospital/maternity unit/A&E closures are not new - they have been compiled over the past year. Every MP and parliamentary candidiate should have been asked to verify a check list - a basic requirement which Central Office seems incapable of performing.
Once again, the Tories in general and Cameron in particular have been made to look like amateurs. An early election would put us all out of our misery.

[Effie]

Scotty | August 21, 2007 at 18:07

Scotty just in case it has escaped your notice, this subject is all about the NHS and the fool Cameron has made of himself.
As for politicising the civil service and the military, have you got any proof that has actually happened?
No point in ducking the issue Cameron has made a proper pratt of himself today and no matter how much you try to duck and dive, the unpalatable facts are there for all to see.
Cameron is the Cross all Conservatives have to bear from now up until the next GE.is lost.
Next time the Conservatives just might get a Conservative leader.

[HF]

As a follow up on Bellingham I note he is a shadow minister for justice.

or was. We cannot have "shadow" ministers stating things contrary to what the main spokesman is saying.

But that also makes Lansley's error all the worse since his people do not appear to have pre-warned this fellow shadow minister ahead of publication.

Lansley may have to go as well.

[Allan Cuthbertson]

Bloody Shambles!! What an incomptetent bunch we are..no wonder Labour is running rings round us!!

[Yet Another Yet Another Anon]

If Lansley 'goes', we're dead in the water. The Party has very few people who you would actually want running departments rather than just out there compaigning.

Willetts, Lansley and Hammond must always be kept at the top table because, frankly, I won't vote for David Davis to go anywhere near running anything.

[Traditional Tory]

So another Cameron secret weapon boomerangs. Ah well; who's surprised?

But I loved the bit about the 'bare knuckle fight'. Coming from Cameron, who looks as if he couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag, that one mined a rich vein of humour.

It brought back memories of Denis Healey's bon mot about being savaged by a pet lamb...

[Scott Wilson]

Don't blame the messenger - Cameron has screwed up and the media have to report this. What's more is that there is intellectual dishonesty here - one one hand Cameron is saying I'm going to have a knuckle down fight with Gordon Brown over this and on the other hand we should let these decisions be made locally. Yet here he is campaigning against local decisions! Perhaps we have such a low cancer survival rate because of all the nimbyism that goes on with the NHS.

Today has been a disaster for Cameron - an unclear message confused by erroneous facts and figures. They had all summer to plan this and botched it.

[voreas06]

Ok so a cock-up has occurred (actually I think the cock-up was allowing Labour and "Friends" to be prepared) we should not have announced a summer offensive we should just always be on the offensive. I think if Effie, and the other trolls think it will do Labour any favours to deny wards, departments and hospitals are under threat when local people know full well that they are, Then you have another think coming. If someone obscured the threat to my family for short term political gain in order to cover up waste and incompetence, then I am likely to be even more outraged when I discover not only is it the case that our lives are being put at risk, but that the government is fully responsible and gutless enough to lie about it.
Regardless no amount of weasel words can hide the fact that two reports came out today effectively saying that Labour have wasted a truly staggering amount of money and continue to put lives at risk for centralising, target driven, pipe dreams.

[Leftie in disguise]

I have a reason for why the UK might have the lowest cancer survival rates in Europe. Whereas other European countries invested huge amounts of money into their publically funded health systems for thirty or so years, the NHS in the UK was systematically starved of cash and is only just beginning to catch up. 10 years can only make so much difference. It take a lot of work and effort to rebuild and almost no effort to destroy.

[David Sergeant]

I thought that Cameron's idea was that decisions are made locally but it is pretty clear these decisions eminate from Brown's Whitehall. It all seems fair enough to me. Problems like this regularly come up to all parties, the difference is that when Labour make a mistake their MPs try to make the best of it for the party and Tories run around in a panic. The mistake is not particularly the issue it's the reaction, e.g. as in these blogs. I would point out that abolishing A&E Depts has been going on for some time e.g., believe it or not, if you are injured in Burnley you have to travel to Blackburn! I am sure Cameron's point will resonate to a lot of people. What is the problem is the hysteria about what may be a mistake; don't you think a hospital manager looking for promotion is going to avoid confirming Lansley's information if he can?

[MH]

I am sorry, but Dave's initiative is in tatters. Instead of the legitimate concerns over Labour's handling of the NHS being the story, it's the ineptitude of the Conservative charges. Pathetic. Utterly incompetent and pathetic.

[KH]

And I keep saying start a petition against the BBC calling them to stop the bias. Or every person makes a formal complaint against the BBC via the BBC web site. Have you also noticed that the story about donations has a vast contract compared to what Sky News is reporting? Check it out:

bbc report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6956564.stm

Sky News: http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91211-1280716,00.html

[banboris]

If this was a clerical error, why did no one spot it. If we want to run the country we need to be better than this an the BBC may be doing the voters, if not us, a favour by pointing it out.

[voreas06]

Lefty in Disguise "10 years can only make so much difference. It take a lot of work and effort to rebuild and almost no effort to destroy."

Rubbish, try getting Brown to take responsibility for his actions for a change. frankly it is sickening that you support someone who targets hospital closures based on whether they are politically sensitive. If Gordon had even a hint of integrity, he would admit that tremendous amounts of money have been wasted and we are being asked to pay the potential price in lives.

[Effie]

voreas06 | August 21, 2007 at 19:02

Voreas06, just take a look at the facts in my post
Effie | August 21, 2007 at 17:58,

Now perhaps if you were adult enough to debate those, instead of your immature "troll" remarks you just may be taken seriously.
In case it has escaped your notice people are entitled to their opinion and if it offends you that I do not worship your "God" Cameron or believe, or hang on to every word the fool utters, then tough titty..that's life, that's my choice.

[TomTom]

I have a reason for why the UK might have the lowest cancer survival rates in Europe. Whereas other European countries invested huge amounts of money into their publicly funded health systems for thirty or so years

Actually it has to do with having specialist cancer centres and lots of consultants whereas Britain has lots of general consultants and cancers are detected late.

Having lost members of my own family to cancer and having doctors in the family, it is clear that late detection was a prime cause of the cancers seeding before detection.

This country lacks specialist doctors anmd specialist centres because of the all-singing, all-dancing general hospital trying to keep everything in-house and the long referral times from GPs because the NHS was designed to use GPs to cover for the miserable shortage of hospital specialists, but has simply overloaded the GPs instead so diagnostic work suffers.

The bottlenecks are in a hospital system subjected to Treasury control during every boom and bust cycle so that proper manpower planning was impossible - now - the one time when funds flowed into the NHS they tried MTAS and MMC and may well have destroyed the hope of sufficient qualified and specialist doctors for a generation through faling to select the right doctors for the right specialities and leaving 13000 unemployed and many bitter

[John Leonard]

For those who have decided to judge Cameron based on the word of intellectually challenged, unequivocally socialist Sky and the BBC News coverage can I suggest they read the Telegraph article. It puts a different and equally plausible spin on it.

The List

The Telegraph take on it

As for my view, CCHQ should know risky early pre-emptive strikes such as this will get this response from Labour, their hirelings and the hysterical anti-conservative factions in the media. If CCHQ haven't got a serious rebuff for this response then they deserve all the stick they will get.

Interestingly, enough the comments about Kings Lynn are probably the weakest on the list. Little wonder Henry Bellingham was surprised by this. CCHQ would really be advised to actually learn how to pick up the telephone and speak to MP's.

[Johnc]

'Oxford Radcliffe Hospitals NHS Trust, which is responsible for Horton Hospital in Banbury, said there is "no threat”to its A&E unit.'

That may be perfectly true, but there is certainly a public consultation going on about reducing the maternity service, with a
midwife instead of a consultant in charge and any complications being transferred to Oxford. The list said 'threats to maternity or A&E services' so as far as the Horton is concerned it is perfectly accurate. How many other Trusts have misread or misunderstood what has been said ?

[Matt Wright]

Those that say the issue isn't valid miss the real point. Of course the NHS has to evolve but what Labour is doing is trying to con the public that they can have services at home cheaply. Treating more people at home can be good but it costs more and has to be funded properly. In truth Labour are using what should be a new approach as a smoke screen for cuts and saving money. Also centralisation presents real risks if things change or we have sudden upsurges in needs eg a serious outbreak of a fatal virus or new MRSA bugs etc,

Matt

[voreas06]

Effie "In case it has escaped your notice people are entitled to their opinion and if it offends you that I do not worship your "God" Cameron or believe, or hang on to every word the fool utters, then tough titty..that's life, that's my choice."

What on earth are you on about, First of all you are clearly a Labour supporter who has come on a Conservative site with a load of propaganda about hospitals and trusts claiming this that and the other. It is a smokescreen, you know it, I know it, so lets stop pretending. The facts are that all of those trusts have published proposals downgrading or closing hospitals in one way or another. You can bleat as much as you like about being entitled to "your" opinion but the simple fact is it is nonsense.
Now whilst Cameron is by no means perfect he is preferrable to Brown any day of the week, It is sad that Labour supporters are so desperate to remain in power they will say anything nevermind its relevence to the truth or the damage it does to people.

[banboris]

I get a bit fed up with moaning doctors - we train them a great cost and then they moan about having to work. If they want to go abroad or dodge the NHS in some way make them pay back their university fees. The same for dentists who refuse to provide proper care for NHS patients, including children.

[Mark Fulford]

We’d fully expect trusts to deny that they’re thinking about closing departments. The story went wrong (not terminally, I hope) because of division. CCHQ said one thing, only to be publicly criticised and contradicted by one of our own MPs -- Henry Bellingham. I cannot understand how an experience politician can apparently have been so foolish that he did not consult CCHQ first. It seems that, having talked with David Cameron, he’s now publicly in full agreement with the criticism of the government – but too late, the damage was done.

We showed division and the press pounced upon it.

We will not win an election while we have party officials who go solo.

[voreas06]

John Leonard "If CCHQ haven't got a serious rebuff for this response then they deserve all the stick they will get."

I would think they have the relevent published proposals for each trust that refute what the various trust heads have claimed today. That should be the least they have got.

[Mark Fulford]

"If they want to go abroad or dodge the NHS in some way..."

Post MMC, that is one of the most ignorant posts I've read on this forum.

[Effie]

Voreas 06.
Just read Peter Coe | August 21, 2007 at 16:46.
This guy is full of common sense, his opinion is more in keeping with mine than yours, but I expect he too is a "Labour Troll", as for Cameron being "preferable to Brown", you are having a laugh, who in their right mind wants either Blair mark 2 , hug-a- hoodie or the heir to Blair?
As for "propaganda about hospitals and trusts claiming this that and the other. It is a smokescreen, you know it, I know it, so lets stop pretending"
If you have proof of that let's see it, in the meantime I will listen to what the Trusts themselves say until I have proof positive to the contrary.
This blog must be full to bursting with Labour Trolls, as it is surprising just how many people share the same opinion as me, where as you my friend are in the vociferous minority.

[John Leonard]

Voreas06:

I sincerely hope so!

[Alistair]

Well Effie I can only agree that the country is bursting with Labour Trolls because very few decent people now want to be asssociated with the Tory or rather Thatcherite Party.

In fact today's Tory Party is not really Conservative at all. Just look at its ideologies and the personalities it has attracted over the last thirty years or so and the evidence is there.

I suppose in some respects it can be categorised more in terms of the attitudes of those who are of the Thatcherite persuasion than by any of the traditional labels of'Left', 'Right', or 'Centre'.

There is something about Thatcherism which has a peculiar attraction for the small-minded and mean: the bigoted and the jealous: the selfish and the callous.

No wonder Cameron, for all his flannel, is a Thatcherite through and through.

So his feeble attempt to pose as champion of the NHS has crashed and burned and a very good thing too.

[voreas06]

I don't know where you live effie, but I will bargain it is not in a constituency where your local DGH is going to be downgraded or closed. Also tell me exactly how congested are your roads at rush hour. I am not prepared to Blindly trust Brown (or actually believe a word he says, given bitter experience) and I am not prepared to sweep under the carpet Hazel's heat maps. Lansley will destroy the nonsense we have heard from Labour cronies in trusts, and that will bring us back to the issue, which is Labour are putting lives at risk because they have wasted an awful lot of money on management, management consultancy, and foolish centralised targets and in order to balance the books they are closing and downgrading hospitals.

It is true there are regular labour trolls on here as well as ukippers, english democrats etc, but by and large they do not just spout the propaganda handed to them from HQ, they largely open their minds and debate.

[Alistair]

Whoever you are voreas you are clearly too young to remember the way the last Tory Govermnment systematically wrecked the NHS with cuts, closures and privatisation.

Fortunately there are millions who remember the sordid truth.

Never again!

[voreas06]

Alistair | August 21, 2007 at 21:22

Thank you for your comment on the current state of the Conservative party. I am sure we will all treat it with the respect it deserves.

In return I would like to ask why exactly do you now support the Labour party? What policies do you truly believe in?

[Effie]

voreas06 | August 21, 2007 at 21:40

There is no point in trying to hold a sensible debate with you.
You are one of these Cameroons who are so brainwashed that you cannot see wood for trees.
What difference where I live or how congested the roads are is not what this thread is about.
Allow me to remind you, it is about Trusts disputing facts and figures Cameron has come up with, nothing more nothing less.
If you cannot stay on subject then I am not interested.
In the meantime if you have those facts and figures spit them out to prove what you are saying if not do the honourable thing and let the subject drop.

[voreas06]

Alistair "Whoever you are voreas you are clearly too young to remember the way the last Tory Govermnment systematically wrecked the NHS with cuts, closures and privatisation."

I remember that my DGH was never threatened and neither was its A&E or Maternity unit. Can you elaborate on these cuts, closures and privatisation. I remember a small amount of Labour relations problems but there were no where near the cuts that Labour are enforcing on trusts. By the way my partner works in the NHS as Nurse and she agrees things have got much worse due to unecessary management and constant reorganisation, just before the election she had loads of bank work available and since it has totally dried up. Most of her colleagues are now overseas nurses whereas when she started in Thathcher's day the idea was that she would have a rewarding career. She like many of her friends now just want to leave the NHS.

[johnC]

'the way the last Tory Govermnment systematically wrecked the NHS with cuts'

As a matter of fact in the years 1979-97 spending on the NHS increased by an average of 3.1% a year in real terms.

Rather a bigger distortion of the truth than confusing Trafford and Altrincham I should have thought.

As for Bellingham he should be ashamed of himself.

[voreas06]

effie "What difference where I live or how congested the roads are is not what this thread is about."

The difference is whether you actually understand/care about the issue or are as I said initial you are just a troll Here at Gordon's behest. Now do you or do you not live in a constituency where a hospital is threatened with closure or downgrading? If you are not prepared to answer that then clearly you have nothing to add except propaganda and Rhetoric.

[Chris Whiteside]

I can't speak for other PPCs and MPs whose local hospitals are on the list, but Andrew Lansley's team certainly contacted me, and I was able to confirm that the maternity unit at my local District General Hospital, the West Cumberland, most certainly has been threatened with at least a partical closure, which would force more than a thousand women each year to travel more than 30 miles over bad roads to Carlisle or Barrow to give birth.

And neither the Labour party not the PCT, let alone the BBC, are going to be in a position to argue, because the local Labour MP expressed his concern about it in the Commons a few weeks ago and the PCT are bringing out their consultation on the future of local hospitals on 19th September. In my constituency what people are worried about is the threat to our local hospitals, which is very real, and everyone knows it.

[M A PATEL]

If I remember correctly, someone was employed and paid a £1/3 million plus to make sure everything went ok! but then again it was a tabloid - top man! geddit!

Seriously, yes i voted labour last time, but David Davis - is the man for the Tories, he has knocked 'seven bells' out of all the Labour Home-secs, so much so that the last one declared it 'unfit for purpose'.

Surely now the accolade for CCHQ and the cameroons.

A disgrace to the party and most importantly the nation!

[Scotty]

WOW! Obviously hit a nerve. There was some debate last year about this. In The Times >Labour 'manipulated hospital closures' or try the BBC "Labour accused over hospital cuts"

[Traditional Tory]

By the way my partner works in the NHS

How cool is that?

Some female penpusher asked me the other day whether I had a partner. I said 'no' and let her scribble on for a little while before saying 'I don't have a partner; I have a wife'

It's just another of those irritating little aspects of living in the socialist Utopia William Hague rightly called a 'foreign land'.

[Scotty]

>The BBC andThe Times

[Scotty]

Will try again BBC

[Scotty]

That's it, last try! BBC

[voreas06]

By the way my partner works in the NHS

How cool is that?

Not very actually, I don't have £20k (there is no way I am allowed to do it on the cheap) to spend on a wedding and I think I am too old to have a girlfriend. How about significant other, or by all means any suggestions for a cooler term.

[Philip]

The error at CCHQ was chief news item on BBC R4 World Tonight. It was the was the first and main headline, and a substantial part of the further analysis part of the programme was devoted to it. True, the fact that Britain has the lowest cancer survival rates got a brief mention in the news bulletin, but that wasn't emphasised - it's embarrasing to the Government. (Imagine if it was reported Britian had the lowest cancer survival rates when we were in power). Anyway didn't this site report a week or so back that Labour had requested the BBC to go on the attack against Mr Cameron?

[banboris]

"Post MMC, that is one of the most ignorant posts I've read on this forum."

Mr Fulford - Drs have been dictating to the Government since 1946. You cannot blame the MMC - you are the one who is ignorant! Your lack of knowledge of what went on before this summer is staggering and like many posters on this site, and indeed like many party members, you attack what you do not understand as being stupid.

[TomTom]

Mr Fulford - Drs have been dictating to the Government since 1946.

I wish they had...then I would have an NHS run for the benefit of doctors rather than administrators

[TomTom]

Sikora

Perhaps the biggest scandal is that we are spending more per head on cancer than France, Italy or Germany.

And there are huge variations in spend across Britain with some primary care trusts spending just £40 and others £140, per person. This inevitably leads to postcode prescribing. The lucky ones get access to the latest drugs while the unlucky ones have to go to extraordinary lengths to get them.

[John Scott]

You can't go around the country spreading inaccurate information about people's access to healthcare. It's as simple as that.

[Alistair]

t comes as no surprise that someone like voreas06 feels he must spend £20,000 on his wedding to keep up with the Joneses.

Rampant greed, snobbishness and selfishness are the hallmarks of Thatcherism. No wonder they elected an Old Etonian to run the party.

And no wonder the NHS is still recovering from the devastation it suffered at the hands of the last Tory government.

[Carwyn]

We get the politicians we deserve. With the infantile level of political debate that is common amongst the electorate (and reflected in much of the comments posted here), is it any wonder that we have Cameron trying to cherry pick a juicy NHS story involving the dreaded words "hospital closures" that he thinks will score him some points, rather than even attempting to open a serious and honest debate about the future of the NHS?

[Delusional Scotty]

"WOW! Obviously hit a nerve.

LoL, Scotty. We know you make it up as you go along. But please don't stop, it is kind of fun and it makes it easier to highlight the delusions of the Cameroons. :-)

[Think about it]

Alistair,

rotfl. You are obviously too young to remember the complete economic state the country was in, in 1979.

Let's was see what even the pro-leftie BBC wrote about it: http://tinyurl.com/2vd2mg

"Britain's mid-1970s economic crisis was so bad that it could have led to the loss of its nuclear weapons system in a "siege economy", papers reveal."

So bad that we would not even be able to defend ourselves? Only under Labour.

Let me remind you that all this internal fighting will correct itself not too far in the future post-Cameron, then all our guns will be firmly pointed at wiping you lot off the political map for a generation.

You've got one more term left. Enjoy it. ;-)

[Traditional Tory]

Let me remind you that all this internal fighting will correct itself not too far in the future post-Cameron, then all our guns will be firmly pointed at wiping you lot off the political map for a generation.

I hope you're right, but the Cameron vale of ters is likely to get tougher and deeper before we finally emerge on the sunlit uplands of a party 'under new management'

[Serf]

Rampant greed, snobbishness and selfishness are the hallmarks of Thatcherism. No wonder they elected an Old Etonian to run the party.

Alistair, you are such a plank.

Apart from the fact that your criticism of Thatcherism is so immature, and follows the logic, I said it, so it must be true
it is also hilariously wrong.

Mrs Thatcher was famously low born, as were many of her allies. This is one of the reasons why so many important people in the party disliked her and why so many ordinary people voted for her. David Cameron's leadership is something of a comeback for the better bred Conservatives.

On the subject of selfishness, I have never met anyone who can explaing why Thatcherism (Wanting to keep your own money) is selfish, whilst Socialism (wanting to take someone elses) is not.

[Steve]

Alistair is tremendous! A real unreconstructed leftie! I thought they'd all died out.

Marvellous - a little bit of history for us to wonder at! All self righteous, class obsessed, chip on shoulder bile. Great!

[Steve]

Alistair is great! A real unreconstructed leftie! I thought they'd all died out!

Marvellous - a little bit of history for us to wonder at. All self righteous, class obsessed, chip on shoulder bile. Great!

[Bob B]

Of course the political froth with the closures threats looming over NHS hospital A&E departments and maternity units is being artfully whipped up to divert attention from Britain's lamentable record for relatively low survival rates in cancer treatments.

A paradox about the relatively low cancer survival rates in Britain is that we also have an outstanding international reputation for the quality of cancer research in Britain.

The Royal Marsden Hospital, which specialises in cancer treatment and care, is rated as world standard. With net surfing, I've often noticed how quickly international media pick up and report on research bulletins that hospital puts out.

One explanation for this curious gap between Britain's high rating in cancer research and the relatively low survival rates relates to the extent of systemic delays in diagnosis and treatment.

A true, personal story yields insights. Last Friday, I received from my local hospital a letter asking me to return to the Pathology Department so they could take another blood sample as they didn't take sufficient blood when I had visited recently. The reference to "recent" relates, in fact, to blood samples taken in April for a range of tests requested by my GP. Now is August.

The letter is the result of my GP pursuing the hospital last Wednesday after I went to my GP for a routine prescriptions review. A check on the reported results of blood tests requested in April showed that the hospital had not returned a result for a requested standard Prostate test - note: "Prostate cancer is the most common male cancer in the UK, accounting for almost one in four of the male cancers. Each year, nearly 32,000 men in the UK are diagnosed with prostate cancer and more than 10,000 die from it."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/prostatecancer1.shtml

Last year, I had an issue with an eye screen when it took 6 months to report that there was no identified problem and that only after pressure and a letter - I gathered from my GP at the time that there were several similar cases of delayed reporting.

A primary problem causing low survival rates in the NHS is therefore not poor science or bad medicine but grotesquely inefficient administration in the NHS. Sadly, recent accounts from friends and acquaintances of their personal experiences corroborates this bleak assessment.

[James Maskell]

Since Cameron is a West Wing fan, wouldnt you assume he would ensure that everything mentioned would have at the very least one solid source behind it, as one episode of the WW showed to avoid these things from happening? This is amateur league.

[Richard]

Henry Bellingham is an incredibly competent and amiable shadow minister. To try and put the blame for this on him is ridiculous. It was idiotic of CCHQ not to bother checking with local MPs, who usually know exactly what is happening with their local NHS. This is just another example of the arrogance and incompetence of CCHQ. I would hope they are going to apologise to Henry Bellingham for their error.

[James Maskell]

Our entire agrument has been undermined by this stupid mistake. Bellingham has my sympathies since he now has to continue in his work with this stupid mistake hanging over him despite the fact it wasnt his fault.

What is the state of the CRD? I know its been broken up to a certain extent under Maude's internal reforms, but has our capacity to research improved at all or has this internal change done us more harm than good?

[malcolm]

Looking at the press this morning things did not work out as badly as some of the excitable posters here predicted.Most newspapers seem to have reported the matter quite fairly with the exception of Phillip Webster in the Times who is as we all know his master's (G. Brown) voice. We have been lucky, mistakes like this should never happen again.
Delighted to see the blog is attracting a few Labour trolls.Alistair, who claims he used to be a Tory (was that in another life?) and the ludicrous 'Effie' who must be the only person in Britain with any knowledge of politics who is unaware of the politicization of the civil service.

[Scotty]

"Let me remind you that all this internal fighting will correct itself not too far in the future post-Cameron, then all our guns will be firmly pointed at wiping you lot off the political map for a generation.

You've got one more term left. Enjoy it."

Talk about making it up as you go along, what a joke!

[Effie]

Malcolm:
How ludicrous Is THIS!!
These are the hospital on record who are disputing the erroneous claim made by your "God" Cameron.

Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Woolwich; Lewisham Hospital; Warwick Hospital; Royal Surrey County Hospital; Chase Farm; King George Hospital, Ilford; Queen Elizabeth, King's Lynn; Princess Royal Hospital, Telford; Frenchay, Bristol; George Eliot, Nuneaton; City Hospital, Birmingham; Queen Mary's, Sidcup; Horton General Hospital; Altrincham, Manchester; Huddersfield Royal Infirmary.

Just in case you also need reminding the thread was not about politicization of the civil service it was about David Cameron's wild accusations.
Are you not the same Malcolm who got himself into a cartload of trouble accusing an elderly gent of lying about David Mellor, kept it up for ages then had to apologise?
Be careful that does not happen again, making a pratt of youself once is one thing, to keep repeating it is quite another.
I am not so polite as the elderly gent.
I suggest you get on with your knitting and your cats and leave insults to the experts.

[malcolm]

Get that list from a Labour party spin doctor did you Effie? While I'm doing my knitting perhaps you'd be better off getting some of your political information from the Daily Mirror,that is if you can understand it.

[Michael McGowan]

Nice one, Malcolm. Effie sounds like Labour's answer to Comical Ali. Of course the nice New Labour Party would never lean on hospital management to do the dirty work of their "rapid rebuttal" unit.....because the Envy of the (Third) World isn't a politicised healthcare system is it? What's Effie got to say about the abysmal cancer survival rates in the Wonderland of Labour's NHS? Worse than Eastern Europe. Is tractor production still going up, Effie?