Fighting back Tories announce multi-dimensional programme to tackle crime

I've just returned from a press conference given by David Davis, David Cameron and Nick Herbert.  At the event they launched a booklet summarising 'How a Conservative Government will tackle Britain's crime crisis'.  Here are the main measures included in the booklet:

'STOPPING THE CRIMINAL INDIVIDUAL'

• The 40 question stop form will be abolished in order to encourage effective neighbourhood policing.
• Extend stop and search in order to tackle carrying of knives, guns and other offensive weapons.
• Scrap targets so that the police can spend more time on the beat.  David Davis told the press conference that a 25% cut in police bureaucracy could double police time on the streets and deliver the beginnings of New York-style policing in Britain.  David Ruffley MP has been put in charge of finding ways of cutting this bureaucracy.
• Workplace reform for the police with a Sandhurst-type focus on training and leadership for talented individuals.
• New guidance to encourage judges and magistrates to remove anti-social offenders' driving licenses.
• Emergency capacity must be found within the prison estate so that the early release scheme can be scrapped.

'REFORMING THE STATE'

• Greater enforcement of school discipline.  Measures to include separate special needs education for children who should not be in mainstream schools and the abolition of external appeals panels so that schools determine their own exclusions.
• More local discretion in the granting of alcohol licences and explore additional powers to tackle irresponsible drinks promotions.
• Every police force to be made accountable to an individual elected by citizens in the police force area.
• Convicted criminals to serve the full sentence given to them by the judge.
• Extension of magistrates' power to send offenders to prison from six to twelve months.
• More jail places so that the prison service has time and space to reverse recent increases in reoffending and ensure special provision for the mentally ill and those with drug problems.
• A dedicated UK border police force - unlike Gordon Brown's ersatz reform the Tory proposal will include the police themselves and the British Transport Police.
• Abolition of the Human Rights Act and the introduction of a "modern British Bill of Rights".

'THE ROLE OF SOCIETY'

• The tax and benefits system will be used to help families stay together and there will be new rights to flexible working for employees with children.
• A new regular process of consultation with music producers will be established to ensure a constructive dialogue on social responsibility.
• Welfare reform whereby independent organisations will be given the job of finding long-term jobs for unemployed people.

New communications chief Andy Coulson watched from the sidelines of the conference and a gaggle of journalists surrounded him at the end of proceedings.  Many commentators believe that the former News of the World Editor can be credited with the sharper edge to Conservative presentation of recent days.

Comments

[clive elliot]

What good is it to ban these kids from driving if they're below driving age? And would a ban stop them from driving anyway?

[David]

It's a question of giving them a punishment that they can't turn into a badge of honour, a la ASBOs.

I'm impressed with this purely on the multi-faceted approach. It's very mature and thoughtful. It'd be good if we good do this with every area of government, interlink three or four areas when we talk about them. Gives a real sense of intelligent joined up thinking.

[Jonathan Powell]

I wonder if the "modern British bill of rights" will conflict with the extension of "stop and search". Surely, any serious bill of rights would include something to the effect that

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[Alan S]

The statistic from Davis is incredible. Let's make that 25pc cut in bureaucracy happen!

[Jonathan Powell]

A new regular process of consultation with music producers will be established to ensure a constructive dialogue on social responsibility.

This is an idea worthy of New Labour...

[EML]

This is excellent stuff. I too am impressed with the so-called "three-dimensional" approach, touching all the bases with talk about the short-, medium- and long-term policies that we can put into action, as well as the distinction between what the State can do and what society as a whole has to do.

I would heartily recommend reading Cameron's short speech and taking in the whole published document.

I think all sections of the party can applaud this initiative.

[Anon Copper]

Sandhust style training for leadership for police should set some alarm bells ringing. The 'talented individuals' will be those straight out of University and they will skip the front line polocing which is currently mandatory for all recruits.

You will end up with senior ranks which are inhabited by those who have never done the job they order those below them to do. The current system of paying your dues on the streets until you prove yourself there is effective and means that those who apply do the proper job, and don't do it as an easy route to senior ranks and good wages.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

"More jail places so that the prison service has time and space to reverse recent increases in reoffending and ensure special provision for the mentally ill and those with drug problems" - good, but what about focusing on poor literacy rates, too? I understand that a huge number of prisoners cannot read or write. Does anyone have the stats?

I support allowing schools to expel disruptive children and not having their decisions reversed by an outside body. But what do we do with these kids?

Not sure using the tax system to encourage married couples to stay together is a good or Tory idea. Are we seriously saying that marriages only break down because they are a couple of quid short every week from not having the married man's allowance or some such benefit?

[Tony Makara]

These proposals are excellent. Well thought out. Well presented. Just what our country needs to extract the cancer of criminality. If the police are going to be allowed to operate a zero-tolerance policy with stop-and-search it will serve as a great deterrent. Making prisoners serve a full sentence is a surefire vote winner. Great stuff.

[215cu]

Nail. Hammer. Hit.

Those proposals are superb, joined up and easy to see they would work well.

And in time to hit the papers tomorrow.

Looks like Mr. Coulson is earning his moola.

[Andrew Woodman]

Excellent stuff. If every shadow team worked as well as Davis, Herbert and co, we would truly look like a Government in waiting.

[Teck]

"New rights to flexible working for employees with children" - How much flexibility and disordered functioning can various types of productions systems (hospitals, schools, factories, hotels, etc.) cope with before loss of efficiency from these measures set in, sabotage or kill these production centres off meant to help with employment in the first place?

"Independent organisations will be given the job of finding long-term jobs for unemployed people" - Old 'New Deal' re-hashed?

"Abolition of the Human Rights Act" - excellent. Now act on that!

Oh, Clive is right but it isn't the first time that stupidity was spotted. Some of my patients have been killed by banned 'under-aged drivers'!! The bereaved relatives knew what such bans can't do a long time ago!

And right NOW, a patient of mine is crying, asking me for 'rehousing letter' to be fabricated (at the suggestion of the council) on 'medicalised' grounds of distress (inappropriately labelled as a disease called Depression) because of the aggravation she is getting from her neighbour who doesn't work, who is better off with benefits than her, and whose young son deals in drugs. Social justice? Social responsibility?

This country will continue its downward drift if we continue to pussy-foot about with desperately urgent issues.

Be afraid, very afraid. And get real, soon.

[ToMTom]

and the abolition of external appeals panels so that schools determine their own exclusions.

Don't know if this is possible. It was the Conservatives who introduced these Appeals Panels because otherwise the headteacher could be subject to Judicial Review in The High Court.

The HRA makes this situation more difficult.

Since the HRA and ECHR only applies to The State and Agencies of The State it would be better if ALL schools were privatised and self-governing. Then the HRA would no longer apply to decisions on exclusion.

If only we could get The State out of our lives the HRA and ECHR would automatically have far less application

[TOmTom]

And right NOW, a patient of mine is crying, asking me for 'rehousing letter' to be fabricated (at the suggestion of the council) on 'medicalised' grounds of distress (inappropriately labelled as a disease called Depression) because of the aggravation she is getting from her neighbour who doesn't work, who is better off with benefits than her, and whose young son deals in drugs. Social justice? Social responsibility

Yes but isn't that the Local Authority playing games ? If they ask you for the letter it is a private service for which the Local Authority must pay the doctor directly.......but if the local authority gets the patient to request the letter it is an NHS matter since the doctor cannot charge the patient

[Teck]

Quite right, TomTom, but the point I was making is the flawed approach to social problems. And I am against having distressed people as pawns in silly games.

Any proceeds arising out of the LA paying for exceptional services will go towards a drink for you at Blackpool!

[Ash Faulkner]

I've a few concerns about politicising the police with elected commissioners; I'd rather we strengthened police governing authorities or something, but I'm willing to hear the arguments. Other than that, absolutely brilliant. The leadership rightly recognises that social breakdown is a multidimensional issue, and they've addressed it very well. They should definately deliver other policy announcements in the same way. Vote Conservative!

[Andyp]

Abolition of external appeal panels is part of the solution but we have to remember that part of the problem at present is Headteachers not being prepared to use exclusions due to LEA monitoring of exclusion rates and 'league tables' within each authority on exclusion rates.

How you can be expected to use exclusions correctdly when LEAs have targets for reducing exclusions is before me. Fair enough is behaviour can be turned round without the need for exclusions but I am afraid to say all to often what happens is that schools simply tolerate appalling behaviour so that they do not exceed their informal exclusions targets set by the LEA.

To get promoted to a senior position, teachers are expected to show a committment to social inclusion at interview stage. Social inclusion (in its present form) is a left wing political concoction of this Government and so that has to go too. No wonder so many of those in senior positions in schools are so wooly minded and liberal; they have to be to get the job!

A good start but more needs to be done to undo the left wing liberal culture which exists in education in this country. Abolishing appeals is a good idea but if exclusions are not used by Heads then it has no impact. Perhaps we should allow parents to appeal decisions of the HEad NOT to exclude - now that would be different.

[Teck]

All that the Labour has been good at are precisely the things that are bad for the country - targets, liberalism, political correctness, remote central control, etc.

Whether it is teaching, policing or doctoring, the Labour approach is both subvervise and counter-productive.

Go DC! Rip Labour to shreds!

[David Belchamber]

It is good to see other people sharing the platform with Cameron on such a stimulating topic.

Anon Copper @ 16.11 is absolutely correct when he (she?) says:

"You will end up with senior ranks which are inhabited by those who have never done the job they order those below them to do".

All policemen and women should serve some time in the ranks first to find out what "real policing" is all about.

Would Anon Copper support the idea of also creating an elite "flying squad", several hundred strong, that could be deployed to crime hot spots in order to augment the local force and saturate the area until normal policing could be resumed?

[ToMTom]

I've a few concerns about politicising the police with elected commissioners;

Oh so you don't think Police Authorities are "political"......!!!!

http://www.wypa.org/section-item.asp?sid=5&iid=16

http://www.wypa.org/section-item.asp?sid=5&iid=36

http://www.wypa.org/section-item.asp?sid=5&iid=30#2

The West Yorkshire Police Authority consists of 17 Members comprising:

• 9 Councillors
• 3 Magistrates
• 5 Independent Members

The Councillor Members are appointed from the relevant district councils within the West Yorkshire Police Authority area and reflect the political balance across the councils taken as a whole. Details as follows:-

9 Councillors (Presently 4 Labour, 3 Conservative and 2 Liberal Democrat), from the 5 district councils in West Yorkshire - Bradford, Calderdale, Kirklees, Leeds and Wakefield.

Chair

Councillor
Castleford Central and Glasshoughton Ward - Labour

Tel: 01924 294006 (Work)
Email: [email protected]
[email protected]

Mark was appointed Chair of the Police Authority in June 2003 and has been a member of the Authority since 1999.

He has been a Wakefield Metropolitan District Councillor for approximately 7 years representing the Castleford Central and Glasshoughton Ward.

As a Councillor, Mark is currently Chairman of the Castleford Town Centre Partnership, Chair of the Labour Group and chair of the Wakefield District Cycle Forum.

Vice Chair

Councillor
Bradford - Thornton and Allerton Ward - Conservative

Tel: 01274 832058 Home
Email: [email protected]
[email protected]

Clive was appointed Vice Chair of the Police Authority in June 2003, and has been a Member of the Authority since September 1999.

He is a Conservative Councillor representing Thornton Ward on Bradford Metropolitan Council.

Committee Responsibilities 2007/08
Equality & Diversity, Human Resources, Local Policing & Partnerships, Senior Appointments, Yorkshire & Humberside Joint Police Authorities Committee, Independent Advisory Group, Independent Custody Visitors Steering Group and Partnership Liaison Group.

Valerie Aguirregoicoa

Valerie Aguirregoicoa
Independent

Tel: 01924 480154 (Home)
E-mail: [email protected]

Valerie is a trained facilitator; she has spent the majority of her working life within the National Health Service in a variety of roles. She spent 5 years as Company Secretary for a small company, serving as a Board Member. She is currently a Non-Executive Director for North Kirklees Primary Care Trust.

Trevor Lake
Trevor Lake
Trevor Lake
Independent

Telephone: 01924 294000 (Police Authority)

Trevor has an experienced background at Senior Executive and Director level in the hotel and hospitality industry. He now specialises in recruitment and resourcing across that industry sector.

Janet Spencer
Janet Spencer
Janet Spencer
Independent

Email: [email protected]

Janet is a Chief Executive of a housing organisation offering supported accommodation to vulnerable people across the city of Leeds.

Formerly, she worked in the Youth Justice System, employed to develop and manage a Bail Support Scheme for Adolescent Offenders. She has experience of working within a social service and probation setting.

Janet spent 5 years as a mature student at York University firstly obtaining a BA in Philosophy and then continuing to gain a Diploma in Social Work and a Masters Degree, specialising in Criminal Offending Behaviour.

http://www.wypa.org/section-item.asp?sid=41&iid=271

The NYPD was closely modeled after the Metropolitan Police Service in London, which in turn used a military-like organizational structure, with rank and order.............Governor Theodore Roosevelt, in one of his final acts before becoming Vice President of the United States in March 1901, signed legislation replacing the Police Board and office of police chief with a single police commissioner.

Prior to 1901, the NYPD was run by a board of 4 to 6 commissioners that jointly ran the department. The following is one of the most famous members of the Police Commission:

* Theodore Roosevelt 1895-1897, Superintendent

[ToMTOm]

I prefer the Commissioner to the jokers who oversee the mess at present

[David Belchamber]

P S A bit of pedantry: could we please remove the little horrors' driving "licences", rather than "licenses"?

[IRJMilne]

re: comment of Anon Copper:
"The 'talented individuals' will be those straight out of University and they will skip the front line polocing which is currently mandatory for all recruits."

What's meant by leadership? If Sandhurst trained generals I'd agree with this, but Sandhurst officers do see frontline service.

re: Mr Hinchcliffe on marriage allowance:

It does make a difference at the lower end of the scale. If you're middle class/upper middle class, you're fine. But the idea that some emotional and erotic concept of "love" is the only justification for a marriage to continue (or be created for that matter) is a damaging leftover of the Romantic movement (CS Lewis writes about it well in a number of places). The amount of money should be significant and has to be worked in such a way as to avoid repeated remarriage or some other abuse. It is a Tory idea because it promotes a stable and civil society. Economic conservatism (basically capitalistic and very anti-socialist) is merely the best discovered means of sustaining a stable and civil society. This allowance would not increase reliance on the state, and, importantly, it shows clear state support for marriage. Like democracy, marriage has its faults but we have found no better system of human organization.

[Mountjoy]

Some welcome policy proposals here, unlike the shambles that the Government is currently offering.

[Praguetory]

This kicks proverbial arse. If you hear a Tory moaning that they don't know what to say on the doorstep, pass them this note. What a relief. Let's rip some Labour hearts out!

[Richard]

"More local discretion in the granting of alcohol licenses and explore additional powers to tackle irresponsible drinks promotions"

Here's another practical suggestion inspired by my own memories of growing up near Liverpool:

How about tightening alcohol licenses to the extent that you can no longer buy alcohol from a newsagent at all?

Precious few prosecutions are brought against suppliers of underage booze, but based on anecdotal experience, I would point the finger at newsagent-type shops.

I mean, what are the options:

1. Supermarkets. Most of which claim to have a "must look at least 21" policy, and are busy, well-lit and full of secuity guards.

2. Vitners and wine merchants.

3. Newsagents. I have never understood why they sell booze really - who, other than students and drunks, needs to buy cheap red wine at 10pm from a late-opening Co-Op?

3. Local, slightly tacky, non-chain Bargain Booze-esque liquor providers. This is more difficult because you don't want to stamp out the little indepedent stores.

Alternatively, how about raising the age of buying alcohol for consumption off premises to 19 or even 20? Despite the criticism of 'Wetherspoons culture', I am sure that it is better for people to drink in a pub or bar environment than among the bushes in a local park!

[David Belchamber]

"ensure special provision for the mentally ill and those with drug problems".

This is a vitally important point in a so-called civilised society. The mentally ill should not be in prison but do we have proper, modern secure institutions with suitably qualified staff, so that they can be transferred from prison and thus free up spaces for those who should be incarcerated?

[Dick Wishart]

Excellent, can we have more please!

[dogface]

Today Cameron makes a major speech on crime. And Milliband declares there will indeed be no EU referendum. Thus far BBC's radio 4 news programmes (1pm, 5pm, 6pm) fail to mention either topic. But they did go large at 1pm on Ming Cambell's witterings about Iraq.

[David Belchamber]

"Measures to include separate special needs education for children who should not be in mainstream schools"

In my view, ESN children need special teaching and should receive it separately; so, too, should the potential thugs and criminals who blight our society these days.

If they show no inclination to work in school and only want to disrupt, they should not be allowed to go onto a comprehensive, if they fail to reach acceptable standards in the basics by 11.

They must not be thrown on the scrapheap, so a new sort of institution needs to be provided where they would continue to receive schooling in the basics, as well as vocational training and plenty of sport.

The ethos would not be that of a borstal but an emphasis on discipline and fitting into society might make them ressemble a military academy for the young.

[Tony Makara]

Dogface, Radio Four's PM chose to lead with other stories too. I get the feeling the BBC are trying to deny Mr Cameron the oxygen of publicity. Privatize the BBC.

[Cleo]

David Cameron's speech is on channel 4 news

[TomTOm]

3. Newsagents. I have never understood why they sell booze really - who, other than students and drunks, needs to buy cheap red wine at 10pm from a late-opening Co-Op?

Now let's confess that the British are genetically different with regard to alcohol.

Germans not only sell alcohol in street kiosks, supermarkets, and filling stations but also at motorway service stations - it is much more widely available than in Britain and you do get drunken football rowdies especially when Dortmund play.

There is something despairing about British society that makes people have a death-wish - to drink themselves to oblivion or to engage in random violence. It may be that we have more people who are simply mentally ill - schizophrenic or bipolar depressive because of family breakdown, and the stresses of living in a congested island........

There is something about the mental health of this population

[Richard]

How about introducing tougher regimes in prisons, ensuring police don't arrest people who stand up to criminals and generally restoring the criminal justice system to how it was several decades ago? Horribly reactionary I know but it would be popular with the public and might actually be more effective than the current farcial system. The days of trying to empathise with the criminal must be brought to an end.

[Alistair]

Tories fighting back? Don't make me laugh.

Cameron blew it before his Summer break in France.

Maybe he should have stayed there.

[Richard]

"How about tightening alcohol licenses to the extent that you can no longer buy alcohol from a newsagent at all?"

Because it's a pain for law-abiding members of the public who may not have a supermarket or a Threshers near them. I don't see why the activities of a minority of chavs in certain parts of the country should lead to restrictions on those of us who are responsible and don't have any of these troublemakers living near us.

[Ken Stevens]

A small but symbolic step - amend the Occupiers Liability Act so that there is no longer a duty of care to an illegal intruder nor a debarment on defensive measures, e.g. mantraps, landmines ... oops sorry, got a bit carried away with that last bit!!

[Peter Hatchet]

Great stuff. Superb stuff. Brilliant stuff.

Shame *some* people on this website can't even bring themselves to say anything positive about David Cameron, or the Conservative party, even when he announces some excellent, traditional policies along the lines they espouse.

I think we can all guess who they really are and what their motives might be.

[Watervole]

As a law-abiding citizen, I can definitely say there is no link between video games and violence as I quite frequently defuse my stress levels (brought on by this government) by shooting and dismembering hordes of computer-generated nazis, aliens and other unsavoury opponents. This has not, as far as I know, turned me into Dr. Crippen overnight. However, if someone were to introduce a virtual politics game..... well, I wonder what parental rating that would get?

[Browns Deluded Sheep Like Followers]

Alistair (Campbell is it?):

baaaaaaaa baaaaaaaaa baaaaaaaa

Pathetic!

[Traditional Tory]

Shame *some* people on this website can't even bring themselves to say anything positive about David Cameron, or the Conservative party, even when he announces some excellent, traditional policies along the lines they espouse.

That depends, Peter, on whether one takes the view 'Better late than never' or 'Too little too late'.

Sadly, the Hug-a-Hoodie Damage has already been done.

[Moral minority]

It is too late. A leopard cannot change its spots. Cameron blew it with his "hug a hoodie" speech. He is stuck with voters' perception that he is soft on crime as well as Chavs.

[Graeme Archer]

Hi guys. Genuine Tories: don't get worked up by the many, many Labour party members who are now posting negative comments here. Today's event has frightened them. Actually couldn't we start a daily button voting thing to see who wins the "bloody obvious Labour Party member trying to pretend to be a normal member of the public who just happens to come to Conservative Home to be critical of our party, but failing at that because (a) they're not normal members of the public and (b) their party fails at everything it tries, particularly trying to be normal" award?

Watervole: your statement is not inference! Think again. While *you* have not suffered from exposure to the stimuli you describe, this is not evidence that such a link does not exist at the population level!

[Cleo]

The "hug the hoodie" speech is not what did the damage. The Conservatives lead in law and order issues. The infighting over grammar schools, banging Europe, post-Blair bounce and Brown's reaction to terror, floods and foot-and-mouth are the reasons why the party now finds itself behind in the polls.

[Moral minority]

New figures show that 1 in 5 crimes in London are committed by immigrants, the largest group being Poles. Crime would be much lower if the European Union had not enlarged to include the peasant Eastern European nations. That is the 600lb gorilla in the room that no one, not even David Davis, will talk about.

[Moral minority]

"Brown's reaction to terror, floods and foot-and-mouth are the reasons why the party now finds itself behind in the polls".

So why did Dave go off to Rwanda instead of putting his constituents first? Rwandans can't vote here, flooded out Britons can.

[malcolm]

Some good stuff here.This seems well thought out and could be far more effective than anything produced by Jacqui Smith or Jack Straw. The comments by people like 'Alistair' show how bankrupt the Labour party are in terms of ideas.
Equally the unthinking opposition of people like Traditional Tory can be discounted.

[Sam Wright]

The only thing that will stop crime in this country is tough mandatory sentences such as a minimum 20 years in prison for stabbing someone or carrying a knife. This is the sort of tough headline grabbing initiative that would put clear policy distance between us and labour and give people a reason to vote tory.

[Mountjoy]

Spot on, Malcolm; the Labour Party really is getting desperate if it's trying to wind us up here. We who post on Conservative Home have much thicker skin than that lot. Labour needs to get its act together; Blair made his name on "Tough on crime, tough the causes of crime"; it would be a crying shame if Brown made his name on "Weak on crime, weak on everything" e.g. the European Constitution 120-MP rebellion that our dear prime minister is facing!

[Sam Wright]

"New figures show that 1 in 5 crimes in London are committed by immigrants"

No immigrants with criminal records should be let in here and all foreign criminals deported. Another tough practical idea which would be very effective but this party lacks the balls to do.

[Patsy Sergeant]

Yes, less statistical targetting can only be a good thing. Targetting has taken the 'soul' out of every organisation it has infected, and that is such a socialist.... obsession!

[David]

"New figures show that 1 in 5 crimes in London are committed by immigrants"

Goodness gracious! That means a whopping 80% of crimes are caused by people born in the UK. We should get rid of them immediately......

[Moral minority]

No, David. Not all British citizens were born here. 1 in 5 crimes were committed by recent immigrants, especially from from EU countries. Put your dunce's cap on!

[David]

If they are not born here, then they are immigrants; if they are born here, they are not immigrants. Status as British citizens is immaterial to that.

But still, that leaves 80% of crimes at the hands of those who are not recent immigrants. Shocking.

[Ted]

Moral minority - over 25% (1 in 4) of London's population in 2001 were foreign born, now probably closer to 1 in 3. So if only 1 in 5 crimes are committed by them they are more law abiding that the native born population.

[Traditional Tory]

Today's event has frightened them

What event?

Brown rules out Iraq pullout? LibDems slam Brown over Iraq? Bush warns Iran?

Whatever Cameron did today it has not hit the headlines.

Get real.

[Teck]

Mountjoy, let's hope that witticism "weak on everything" doesn't bounce back and stick on DC.

Moral minority, talking about the 600lb gorilla did you know that political correctness has now plunged to such depths that a newspaper reported in a region of the UK that during Ramadan, non-Muslim office workers are asked to be discreet and not eat in the presence of Muslims, yet in Malaysia, a Muslim country, there is no such decree?

And Sam, you must know the notoreity of immigrants from the Horn of Africa, recognised by all and those who suffer them in the heart of a culture so alien to them, except those in a position to make a difference to the lives of law-abiding citizens?

This has been an excellent discussion board!

[Traditional Tory]

But still, that leaves 80% of crimes at the hands of those who are not recent immigrants. Shocking.

Are you suggesting that 20% of the population are recent immigrants.

Or are you trying to excuse this disgraceful statistic?

over 25% (1 in 4) of London's population in 2001 were foreign born, now probably closer to 1 in 3.

I wonder how long it will be before we are a minority in our own country?

[Cleo]

So what if 1 in 4 of London's population is foreign born, they contribute to a vibrant economy and quite frankly if we did not have immigration then we would have a shrinking population and declining tax revenues to support an ever increasing older population. These comments on immigration are deplorable and if they continue will contribute to the decline of the Conservative Party.

[Moral minority]

You want to cut crime by at least a third? Then deport the immigrant criminals! Sounds a vote winner to me!

[Sean Fear]

"if we did not have immigration then we would have a shrinking population and declining tax revenues to support an ever increasing older population"

Obviously, some immigration is desirable. Immigration on its current scale isn't. The economy functioned pretty well prior to 1997 with a much lower level of immigration.

As I understand, about 13% of prisoners are now foreign-born, compared to about 10% of the population overall.

[malcolm]

Are you really a Conservative Cleo?(Honest question) You seem to think that immigration and Europe are two subjects that we shouldn't discuss.
I don't know if you do any canvassing at all but if you did I think you'd find that both subjects are very important to natural Conservatives and many members of the electorate.

[Cleo]

Making the case for controlled immigration is fine. It is the suggestion that all crime is the fault of immigrants and comments like "I wonder how long it will be before we are a minority in our own country" that I object to.

[malcolm]

I don't think anyone here has said that all crime is the fault of immigrants Cleo. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Cleo]

Malcolm- I am not a member of the party, I am a floating voter considering voting for the Conservatives at the next election.

[john]

Double the number of coppers on the beat?
Easy. Stop sending them out in pairs.
Doh!

[Cleo]

Malcolm- okay, my comment about people suggesting all crime is the fault of immigrants was not particularly accurate. The point I was really trying to make was that on a post about crime and mini-manifesto published today with lots of good ideas has come down to particularly negative comments about immigrants.

[Moral minority]

Cleo is a troll, not a floating voter. Floating voters would not spend so much time on a Tory site.

Perhaps "Carry On Cleo" can comment on the percentage of gun crime committed by non-whites.

[Teck]

Cleo, a large and significant proportion of the latest wave of immigrants claim benefits of one kind or another, discounting the migrant workers most of whom are at the lower end of the income bracket.

We are not talking about established immigrants, whites or non-whites. Rather, the issue is the real potential for destabilisation of the established society with unplanned and unsustainable influx, not only on grounds of the economy and homeland security, but social harmony and the very fabric of British life held by Anglo-Saxons, maintained and contributed to by all complexions.

Consider for a moment too those twin thorny problems of secondary immigration, through which spouses and extended families are "imported" and their higher birth rates compared with indigenous populations. Hence, many out there share Traditional Tory's anxieties of becoming minority in their own country, not just on a numerical basis but by the sheer scale of cultural and moral dilution.

[Sam Wright]

Well said teck, spot on

[Dontmakemelaugh]

So what if 1 in 4 of London's population is foreign born, they contribute to a vibrant economy and quite frankly if we did not have immigration then we would have a shrinking population and declining tax revenues to support an ever increasing older population. These comments on immigration are deplorable and if they continue will contribute to the decline of the Conservative Party.

Posted by: Cleo | August 28, 2007 at 22:16

Making the case for controlled immigration is fine. It is the suggestion that all crime is the fault of immigrants and comments like "I wonder how long it will be before we are a minority in our own country" that I object to.

Posted by: Cleo | August 28, 2007 at 22:35

It was a statement by an Islamic cleric that I objected to: "That the wombs of our women will conquer you in the West" - or words to the effect. We are governed by, in some cases well meaning, but very foolish politicians
Read Robert Spencer.

[Matt Wright]

Good stuff from DC and team. Like the 3 man briefing, looks more Govt-like. Mini-manifesto is spot-on. Feedback from public improving while we have been concentrating on law & order. Interesting the more desperate posts on the thread from those who wish the party ill. Good sign we are hitting the right notes. Please, let's have more of this,

Matt

[Patsy Sergeant]

Cleo you seem to be suggesting that we should NOT comment on the subject of immigration at all, except quoting the PC mantras that obviously don't tell the whole story, but sound good to people who for some reason can't come to their own conclusions on the subject of immigration. One of the mantras is that immigrants help to create a vibrant economy etc: ect:. Nobody denies that immigrants who come here to work do just that and more, but are you not aware that that is not the whole story? What about the illegal immigrants who have been convicted of crimes, should have been deported, but are now loose in the community. Of course, not ALL crime is committed by immigrants, BUT some crime and capital crime at that IS committed by immigrants, often 'illegals' - the murder of PC Sharon Beshinevsky for one.

[Teck]

"governed by, in some cases well meaning, but very foolish politicians"... reminds me of "into the valley of death rode the six hundred" with thanks to Lord Tennyson.

Let's bring forth the next generation of politicians who have a sense of history, the charity of heart, fairness of act, strength of character and unimpeachable integrity.

[Matt Wright]

Trad Tory at 22.03 said - "Whatever Cameron did today it has not hit the headlines.Get real".

Rubbish! Today I travelled from London to North Wales. This morning in London I switched the TV on and saw Cameron on the morning show there. He was excellent and talked about law & order very persuasively. I picked up the papers and saw reference to him, Davis and Nick Herbert in various articles. By the way Conservatives had what was largely a headline story in terms of Browns failure on the Armed Forces as well. All this built on the last few days of good coverage and gave a headlining status to our profile on law, order & security. We also had the radio on in the car as we travelled today and switched between various stations on the journey home. All prominently mentioned Conservative stances on Law & order and audio clips from Cameron etc.

Matt

[IRJMilne]

Regarding "hug-a-hoodie" - I notice a Lib Dem-Tory swing reported recently on this website, which should hopefully lead to Tory gains in the constituency I live in, the one I used to live in, and various others in the south. Cameron did not "blow it" with "hug a hoodie". If voters insist on kicking him for something he never said, the basic premise of which was defended even by that stalwart of leftist weepy-weak liberalism Lord Tebbit, the electorate are being intentionally stupid and pig headed on purpose and we could never have won a majority, the country lacking seriousness of purpose for serious reform and improvement made needful by a decade of Blair.

[Edison Smith]

Well, at five minutes to midnight, I think we can say - it's been a good day.

The Shadow Cabinet is setting the agenda currently, and who cares if the BBC bother to cover it or not - the red tops and broadsheets will.

Newsnight are doing a 'Cameron special' tomorrow. I'm sure Cameron will get this mini manifesto over in his usual extremely articulate manner.

Coulson is beginning to earn his £££ - he's getting some Tory faces in the media.

Where are Labour during all this? On a beach somewhere.

Onwards and upwards.

[Matt Wright]

Its not the electorate that were going on about "hug a hoodie" (which DC never said), it was Labour and their little helpers (some of whom post on this site and some who write for the press) who never ceased mentioning it. In this way the term managed to gain some initial traction but has now died away as it was an obvious misrepresentation of what the party was saying. I am plesaed with the recent mini-manifesto which is a very good move forward and our position has been well reported at last. More please,

Matt

[Sam Wright]

Matt you're delisional. Cameron's wishy washy language and his hug a hoodie image mean no one pays attention to him anymore. 'Lets get tough on video games' today has simply addedd to this image

[Matt Wright]

I watched Cameron on TV this morning and he covered a whole range of issues, reiterating short, medium and long term measures against crime and concentrating on getting more police on the beat etc. Mention of video games was a very small part of the package. The same was the case in the various reports on the radio stations. You seem however to want to misrepresent what his position was and how the media reported it. God knows why. Maybe you just don't like the fact that the last few days have seen us get a clear message across!

Matt

[Philip]

DCs speech and the “Time to Fight back” document is excellent. Some thoughts on what I rightly or wrongly think may be weaker elements:
1) Are the punishments ones that really do deter?
2) I cannot believe denial of driving licences would be a deterrent.
3) “Every police force to be made accountable to an individual elected by citizens in the police force area.” This elected official could be an elected mayor. But mayors get elected on a number of issues and this could mean someone elected who may appeal and have good policies on everything else except law & order.
4) “A new regular process of consultation with music producers will be established to ensure a constructive dialogue on social responsibility” does seem weak.
5) “More jail places” – could these be created also by not jailing people for less serious and non-violent offences and who are not thugs and wouldn’t be a threat to public safety, and for whom other punishments would be better?
6) Repeal of HRA: I understood this would be pointless without coming out of the ECHR, otherwise people would just appeal to Strasbourg.
7) As for the Bill of Rights, how about the right to live, conduct lawful activity, and freedom of movement without the fear of crime, and without encountering violence, intimidating and threatening behaviour, with a duty on the state to enact law and order to ensure these rights? And freedom of association, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom to live peacefully according to conscience? And how about the right to life from conception to natural death.

[karen]

Sam You must be mega upset that David Cameron has hit the right spot today and highlighted what most people think about crime. David Carry on talking sense

[Neil Walton]

Just read the plan and it is all good stuff. Conservative and conservative, bound to appeal to all true blue Tories.
Keep up the good work!

[Traditional Tory]

In this way the term (Hug-a-Hoodie) managed to gain some initial traction but has now died away

Really? Ah well of course we know you Roons are capable of infinite self-delusion.

Cameron may never have said (precisely) 'Hug-a-Hoodie' but like 'On yer bike' and Lord Tebbit it will ever remain the only quotation associated with the man because it is soooooh Dave. Wet, woolly, and totally out of touch.

It wil be his political epitaph - in fact it already is.

[Traditional Tory]

In this way the term (Hug-a-Hoodie) managed to gain some initial traction but has now died away

Really? Ah well of course we know you Roons are capable of infinite self-delusion.

Cameron may never have said (precisely) 'Hug-a-Hoodie' but like 'On yer bike' and Lord Tebbit it will ever remain the only quotation associated with the man because it is soooooh Dave. Wet, woolly, and totally out of touch.

It wil be his political epitaph - in fact it already is.

[Editor]

Traditional Tory: Please be more constructive or leave this forum. The relentless and destructive negativity is too much.

[TomTom]

New figures show that 1 in 5 crimes in London are committed by immigrants, the largest group being Poles.

Funny the list I saw had Jamaicans at the top of the list and Poles either 2nd or 3rd. Where does you data come from ?

[Bill]

If the Tories really intend and are able to deliver on law and order, so much for the good as the country needs it. I cannot say though that I have much confidence in them. And whether the Editor likes it or not, Cameron's hoodie speech misjudged the zeitgeist.

[IRJMilne]

If a relentlessly aggressive policy consisting of "string-em-up" is the publics favoured solution to Britain's crime problems, why have they not voted for it before and why have Labour done so well in recent elections?

If people won't be positive, why don't we just give up on Project Cameron and propose yet another new leader?

Cameron's "wishy washy language" wins Lib Dem votes at any rate. Why are Tories all so frightened that ex-SAS David Davis will be no better than Labour's Home Secretaries?

re: hoodies - were there hoodies 30 years ago? It is a phenomenon caused by modern society. Individuals should be held responsible for their actions but it is worth understanding that perhaps if we fixed some of Labour's socially anarchist policies we would have less hoodies to hold to account.

My own view is that Mr Cameron made that speech a) to win over some Lib Dems, and b) to find a politically acceptable way of easing old-fashioned Tory ideas like responsibility back into society.

I am not all pro-Cameron - I have argued against his gay marriage stance, his sacking of Col. Mercer, and other issues on this website - but I am convinced that he is in the right regarding that hoodie speech. And if he isn't in the right, we should stop banging on about it anyway if we're not going to propose a new leader.

[TomTom]

re: hoodies - were there hoodies 30 years ago? It is a phenomenon caused by modern society.

We didn't have CCTV years ago so had no need of obscuring faces

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=822932004

Glasgow’s legendary chief of police, Sir Percy James Sillitoe, who was dubbed "Scotland’s Eliot Ness", was credited with destroying the gangs in the late 1930s, but members insist the Second World War was the reason they disbanded.

SCOTLAND’S problems with violence are rooted in the history of the west coast hardman and razor gangs, which started in the 1930s and, unfortunately, continue to the present day.

When you add the modern drug culture to that historical legacy, you get an explosive recipe. And just for good measure, you can add religion into that west coast mix, with Old Firm tribal loyalties undoubtedly the cause of a significant amount of violence.

In recent years, a knife culture has become more prevalent, especially in and around Glasgow. It’s hard to imagine what goes on in the heads of those who choose to carry knives, but young people initially appear to convince themselves that they need to have a blade for self-protection. As they get older, they are more prepared to use those weapons. In some cases, the mentality is to get their retaliation in first.

Official figures show murders in the west of Scotland increased by 19% from 70 in 2003 to 83 in 2004.

This was boosted by a bloody series of slayings in Glasgow last October that left nine men dead in the space of a few weeks.

Research shows there is a real difference in homicide rates north and south of the border. There is very little difference between Scotland and England when you compare serious and minor assault. It is in the realms of serious violence that the picture changes.

Previous research has suggested that the real difference between homicide rates in Scotland and the rest of the UK is the number of people killed by male strangers.

From my experience of speaking to the police in Glasgow, it seems that people go out with a knife in their hand and really intend to use it. Blade-carrying has almost become culturally imbued in some parts of the west coast. Some of it is based on gang fights and grudges that go back several generations. Much of the violence is based on eye-for-an-eye-type retribution. It has become almost warlike in some parts of Glasgow.

Susan McVie is a senior research fellow and criminology expert at the University of Edinburgh.

From The Sunday Times
September 25, 2005

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/other/display.var.1542221.0.0.php

THE persistence of gang violence stretching back for decades in one of Glasgow's housing schemes is "thoroughly depressing", Scotland's newest High Court judge said yesterday.

Lord Matthews was sentencing a teenage killer at the High Court in Glasgow, for the first time, when he recalled handling similar cases when he embarked on his legal career.

Paul Spence, 18, was found guilty at an earlier trial of the culpable homicide of a 40-year-old father of three who was trying to split up a fight between two rival gangs in Easterhouse.

In the last year Strathclyde Police recorded 2665 knife or blade-carrying incidents.

The force's annual report showed in Glasgow in 2006-07 there were 33 murders, 201 attempted murders and 2644 serious assaults.

The picture could be worse as it is believed that only one in three violent crimes is reported to police.

The decades of violence and particularly knife crime among young men led to the introduction of the Violence Reduction Unit in 2004.

[Hacked off Member of the forces]

David Belchamber and Ann Copper both criticise the potential introduction of a Sandhurst style Police College. Can they state exactly what is wrong with the way that Officers in the Armed Forces are trained? I'd be very careful taking pot shots at the Armed Forces, even to criticise shortcomings in proposed policies. Officers from all three services are conducting truly outstanding acts of bravery in Iraq and Afghanistan on a daily basis

Are you really suggesting that Officer training doesn't involve time learning what the rank and file do, and more importantly actually carrying out these roles? I put it to you that we have the finest Officer Training System in the entire world, as is reinforced by the fact that just about every other nation on the planet sends delegations to this country with the view to copying our structures.

Whilst it is true that real policing can only be learnt on the streets, true leadership ability is a mixture of genetics, theory and experience. All three services recruit graduates, and all three services also recruit to their Officer cadre from within the services.

The recruitment of graduates essentially targets those who are academically able to deal with a high work load, process volumes of information and importantly decide a course of action based on their ability to deal with information quickly.

The main selection criteria for Officer Training is the potential to lead, not what subject was read at University; David Belchamber and Ann Copper would do well to remember that when criticising those of us (Service, Police or Firebrigade or Ambulance Service) who stand up to do our duty

British Police Forces have absolutely outstanding people within their ranks; however the establishment of a Sandhurst style academy would surely only improve the way in which the leaders of the Police Forces are developed and assessed for the leadership ability.

[James Maskell]

The BBC completely blanked it. The only way I caught it offline was by reading ITVs Ceefax pages! It was their third story.

Ive never undersdtood the point of ASBOs and the new ABCs. If someone is breaking the law, arent you giving them a free shot by just telling them that what they are doing is wrong then letting them out witha piece of paper saying not to do it again? If they are breaking the law, they are breaking the law...

[David Belchamber]

Hacked off Member of the forces | August 29, 2007 at 09:14

"David Belchamber and Ann Copper would do well to remember that when criticising those of us (Service, Police or Firebrigade or Ambulance Service) who stand up to do our duty".

First let me assure you that it is not my intention to criticise any of the services you mention; in fact, I believe that all of these are rare examples of things that are done very well in this country. I have enormous respect and great sympathy for the impossible demands made by the politicians on our armed forces at the moment.

What I said is that I believe all police should have experience of the beat; I support the idea of a Sandhurst style training college but I do not agree with a fast track graduate entry to it: three years on the beat at least and then on to training college. I did something similar myself in the army and I value the time spent as an other rank.

[Hacked off Member of the Forces]

My only observation of what is a very well thought out line of attack and an excellent basis for policy is this:

"A dedicated UK border police force - unlike Gordon Brown's ersatz reform the Tory proposal will include the police themselves and the British Transport Police"

There are hundreds of models around the world that could be used as a starting point for this type of force. However to establish this type of force, which requires its own command (probably para-military) structure, budget and probably a secretariat within the civil service could take more than a parliamentary term to establish and become effective.

Further there are risks of the type which led to a failed anti-drug operation in the late 1990s when British registered tug was disastrously boarded in international waters under the auspices of the HM Customs and Excise. The operation conducted by the Armed Forces failed legally because of a lack of understanding of international maritime law by the HM C&E (very surprising). I doubt that the British Transport Police would have sufficient corporate knowledge to command such a force.

Secondly, for the UK the border is our shoreline, even though territorial waters extend to 12miles. Once terrorists et al are on dry land they become a more difficult issue to deal with. You will notice that the only force really able to conduct this type of border policing is the Royal Navy. However a quick scan of HM Ships will show you that the types of ship that UK has are to unwieldy for this type of work.

In essence this point within the Strategy needs further work, but is a great idea. The only force that exists at the moment in the world that operates along the lines I highlight above is the US Coastguard, which is para-military but is also involved in safety of Life at sea operations.

However, a superb piece of strategy. Let’s have more of it

[Ezra Mayo]

The cuts in police bureaucracy seem a sensible idea (ie David Davis) but I'm concerned about the vague mention of video games and the music industry (vague, wooly, knee-jerk, sound bite Cameron perhaps?)

Is anyone else uncomfortable about the state intervening in matters of the art? Despite a traditional appointment by the home office the BBFC is an independent body. OFCOM has to answer to whichever relevant dept but in actual fact communications content is independently scrutanised (though like any dept individuals will be politicised). Is Cameron hinting at a dept of censorship, not seen since WWII?

There are all sorts of arguments to be had about whether rap music and hip hop 'culture' develops an apathetic or amoral attitude towards violence, racism, sexism, homophobia etc... but surely Cameron doesn't want to politicise artistic output, however repellent it might seem? This would be serious political correctness in the proper sense of the phrase, more akin to a left-socialist party than a liberal-conservative one.

Video games are ridiculously violent nowadays, as are 18 certficate films, but as a certain politician mentioned a year ago, the best form of censorship is the Off Button. Is he now, as always, doing a bit of a backtrack?

[Anon Copper]

"David Belchamber and Ann Copper both criticise the potential introduction of a Sandhurst style Police College. Can they state exactly what is wrong with the way that Officers in the Armed Forces are trained? I'd be very careful taking pot shots at the Armed Forces, even to criticise shortcomings in proposed policies. Officers from all three services are conducting truly outstanding acts of bravery in Iraq and Afghanistan on a daily basis"

That's a pretty bad piece of spin which has just been applied to the comment I made. I have no interest in discussing how the training for the military is suceeding or failing, I was making the point that in the British police you pay your dues on the street ad don't bypass this by going to a training college. The reason I say this is because I am well aware of previous proposals which were focused upon recruiting 'talented induviduals' in to senior ranks without them ever even working on the frontline.

The differences between the army and police, and the training required are so clear that it hardly needs me to point out. As for being 'careful about taking pot shots' I would respectfully respond that I will feel free to make whatever comments I wish to about proposed reform to my profession, if you somehow managed to take these remarks as being targeted at the army itself then I'm afraid you over-estimate my interest in the politics of army training!

"David Belchamber and Ann Copper would do well to remember that when criticising those of us (Service, Police or Firebrigade or Ambulance Service) who stand up to do our duty".

And I thought it was quite obvious that I am myself a police officer, but maybe not obvious enough! With only military experiece to draw upon you may be under the illusion that all services are broadly the same; I strongly suspect this is not the case. Under the old graduate fast-track scheme senior officers became resented quite easily for the perceived side-stepping of fulfilling their core duties as a police officer before gaining promotion. I promise you, the effect of this reform as it currently reads, would be just as bad if not worse..

[hacked off member of the forces]

Anon Copper, sounds like a clear cut case of "change is bad" to me.

It is very telling off the state of senior management/Command of the Police that a retired Admiral was appointed as Minister for Homeland defence. Why wasn't a Senior Police Officer chosen??

The point i made, which you avoided, was that Graduates have a lot to give to professions such as the Police and Armed forces.

Agreed that the journeyman time needs to be done on the front line, but to slate people for drive and motivation seems a bit of a dim view to take.

[BMc]

Gentlemen, if I may step in...

If I could just draw attention to one particular fact - that graduates who go into Sandhurst will come out and serve shoulder to shoulder alongside their men, albeit in a commanding capacity. They pay their dues in real sense in a way that every soldier does and work their way up the command structure in parallel to NCOs (albeit in a higher tier).

My understanding with policing is that the proposals for graduates that were suggested would mean that someone would join and go straight behind a desk. They would not have the opportunity to experience operations as a Lt in the Army would have.

My point is that there is no direct comparison between the two systems, as there is no separate ladder for commanders and troops in the police. I am also under the impression (and Copper, please correct me if I'm wrong) that police officers who do show drive and ambition tend to move up the ladder substantially quicker than those who don't and that there is a fairly robust merit culture within the police.

[Wang Jerry]

Why are you being disloyal to your government and supporting the Tories which is against regulations.

You hiding your name in a sneeky manner. Obviously an officer who thinks hes better than everybody else.

Give me your name so that you can be reported to the authorities.

[Ken Stevens]

Wang Jerry | August 29, 17:03
"..Why are you being disloyal to your government.."

Apart from the fact that there is no disloyalty involved in having a viewpoint about routes into leadership positions in the Army (or the police), I gather that Forces commissions are held from Her Majesty and not from the government of the day.

"..Obviously an officer who thinks hes better than everybody else.."
They generally are; that's how they got to be officers. A pity more of them don't subsequently become politicians.