War with the Mirror

A rather slanted piece in The Observer sourced by the Mirror describes David Cameron's first meeting with Daily Mirror Editor and former spin doctor Richard Wallace. They met at Cameron's request, alone at his Portcullis House office, to discuss the Mirror's repeated personal attacks on "Tory Toff" Cameron.

Wallace dismissed Cameron's claim that "You're treating me worse than the Sun treated Kinnock in the 1980s.", saying that this kind of criticism was "par for the course for politicians". Noting the Michael Howard vampire image when he was elected leader, he said that as the Mirror is the only card-carrying Labour paper it is "duty bound to heap opprobrium" on Cameron every day.

Afterwards Wallace said: "I was quite shocked. This is a man who wants to be Prime Minister, and he was whining away like a little schoolboy". On Friday he was apparently incandescent about Cameron's comments about the private meeting at Cheltenham, telling George Osborne: "The gloves are off. "If you want a war, I'll give you a war'." (Quote sanitised, we're a family website).

It's a similar situation to when Tony Blair tried to gain favour with right-leaning newspapers in the run-up to 1997. Learning from Kinnock's mauling, he and Alastair Campbell were successful in winning back The Sun and other newspapers, although they were disappointed at not being able to win over the Daily Mail.

Cameron had raised the prospect of lifting the ban on CCHQ dealing with Mirror lobby journalists, but that looks unlikely to happen for some time!

Deputy Editor

Comments

[Anthony Broderick]

What on earth did Cameron plan on doing to win over this trashy socialist tabloid?

[TomTom]

Who cares ? Most people read The Sun and The Mirror Chinese-style starting on the back cover and may or may not read the front section.

This obsession politicians have about dominating the agenda is the reason people have switched off.

Address the Issues with Policies and stop trying to be Celebrities in Showbiz

[Curly]

There's a bigger chance of meeting the Pope's wife than winning over The Mirror, what a pointless exercise!

[Tory T]

Who cares what the Mirror thinks. If the editor defends going through Cameron's bins to look at his disabled son's nappies then he is beneath contempt.

More important is Cameron calling for a referendum on the signing of the Euro Constitution by another name. I am sure all sides of the party will be ecstatic over this, any chance of a Tory Diary on it?

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Best to igmore the Mirror - most people do...

[Traditional Tory]

Well this has backfired on Cameron. What a fool the man is to suppose he would have a dyed-in-the-wool Socialist newspaper at his beck and call.

It also shows how thin-skinned he is. More robust politicians would relish such attacks.

Cameron increasingly comes across as a school swot type, desperately cosying up to teacher in order to gain a measure of protection against the other lads.

As Wallace says, 'whining away like a little schoolboy'.

[W Wormell]

But if the Mirror becomes fairer DC, it will only be read by Labour supporters anyway. Do you know of any tories who buy that rag?

[CDM]

Today, the Mirror. Tomorrow, the Morning Star!

[richard]

This is PITIFUL - on Dave's part. The psychologists will have a field day on all the hidden insecurities. I predict that the next election will be the most class-based since Alec Douglas-Home v Harold Wilson in October 1964.
Cue pictures of the Eton Wall Game, the Bullingdon Club, Dave's father-in-law at his country pile, etc, etc. if Dave gets het up about the Mirror now, you ain't seen nothing when they really turn the screws.
Roll on Kenneth Clarke's long deserved leadership.

[Joseph]

June 10, 2007 at 10:17
Do you know of any tories who buy that rag?

Perhaps none, but the whole idea of trying to get elected as a future PM and a future government is to appeal to all and sundry not just the Tory faithful.
With comments like this and the advice Cameron is being given you will all still be only talking to one another in another ten years from the opposition benches.

As for Mr Cameron this smacks more like a spoiled child's antics rather than a serious contender. I think he needs to be looking around for better advice.

[Traditional Tory]

Perhaps none, but the whole idea of trying to get elected as a future PM and a future government is to appeal to all and sundry not just the Tory faithful.

Yes. Wasn't that the key 'Dave' strategy. The one we're all supposed to be signed up to - even those of us who would rather swallow ground glass than vote for Cameron.

Sounds like (yet another) case of 'Do as I say...'

[simonh]

Labour has made very little of Cameron's background so far. They're clearly keeping their powder dry on it for the election campaign. When they start to make full use of the Eton/Bullingdon stuff (plus whatever else they have managed to dig up in the mean time), it will resonate very badly with a large swathe of the electorate and play against the "ordinary nice guy Dave" image that Cameron is trying so hard to establish.

[Traditional Tory]

Of course it isn't Cameron's fault he was sent to Eton, but he is directly and personally reponsible for the disgraceful Bullingdon business.

We wouldn't elect a soccer thug to be leader of the party. The fact that a Bullingdon member was elected suggests bad judgment allied with class bias.

All this is going to end in tears, as an increasing number of CH contributors are coming to realise

[simon]

He hasn't played this one well. What he should have done was to offer to write 'opinions' on Government disasters and 'Orwellian' tendencies in the NULAB ( 'national socialists')Party. He should have known The Mirror would not openly support the Conservatives at an election- but as to attacking 'anti-democratic' sentiment in NULAB they COULD have found common cause. besides, i haven't picked up the Mirror since they stopped printing the 'Garth' cartoon!

[Patsy Sergeant]

I agree with most people's comments above, ignore the Mirror. The natural place for the Mirror is a fish and chip shop, I don't buy fish and chips because they are too greasy, but I am sure that the local chippy is where the Mirror would feel most at home!

[Traditional Tory]

Well I haven't picked up the Mirror since they stopped printing the 'Jane' cartoon.

Must have been sometime around 1066

[Traditional Tory]

I don't buy fish and chips because they are too greasy

Obviously not. They stopped wrapping fish and chips in newspapers decades ago, probably under some EU directive

However, in those dim and distant days, 'Chippy' proprietors always preferred to use newspapers of broadsheet size.

[simon]

Well, i'd do a 'Margo' with regard to fish and chip wrapping! Wouldn't use the 'Mirror'- i'd use the 'Telegraph'! Perhaps Cambo should do a 'tongue in cheek' photoshoot at a chippy!

[No To Nutters]

Editor - those of us who remain Thatcherites and who have certain doubts about the strategy of the Party leadership value Conservative Home as one of the few places where we can read informed - and measured - criticism.

That's why it's vital that right wing extremists like the notorious Mike Smith (AKA - 'Traditional Tory') be banned from this site. His abusive ad hominem attacks on Cameron lower the tone, poison the atmosphere and discredit those of us who wish to venture a genuinely constructive critique.

[John F]

I agree with most of the comments about the Mirror, basicaly its written by morons for morons.
More importantly what,s going on at the Daily Telegraph, articles about the numpties running for the non-job of labour deputy leader, inane rubbish about Gordon Browns past, allowing the likes of the Europhile chancer Dennis McShane to publish his rubbish in the centre pages.
I noticed on their website on Friday a large number of protesting comments after the McShane article.
I see there will be more articles about GB in next weeks Telegraph. I,m wondering if they are in competition with the BBC in the promotion of Brown.
Time to get hold of their editor Tim and find out what they,re up to.

[simon]

Oh God- MacShane!! What a bad pancake chef there! I wonder if there's a lot of Polish immigrants in Rotherham will he be changing his surname back to what it was in the first place? I'm sure i read in Gyles Brandreth's diaries his original name was 'Matiajek' or something equally un-spellable! Since MacShane is a fanatic Euro-Loony i'm sure this will appeal to his PC federalist ideals!

[Tory T]

Whilst I certainly have strong disagreements with TT on many things, he has a right to post anonymously and I hope that comment will be considered for moderation.

[Joseph]

Posted by: No To Nutters | June 10, 2007 at 11:40:

That's why it's vital that right wing extremists like the notorious Mike Smith (AKA - 'Traditional Tory') be banned from this site:

Is that not what happened in Nazi Germany, one person trying to deny another his basic right as a human being of freedom of speech?
Debate is the best way forward, not banning people or ridiculing their honest beliefs.
If you do not agree with a persons point of view at least respect that persons right to hold it and challenge them with reasoned and well mannered argument, you will achieve more.

[Erasmus]

Not to Nutters is absolutely right.

AS for Joseph's reductio ad hitleram comments, do remember that to consider freedom of association alongside freedom of speech.

If Tim Montgomerie wanted to restrict comments on this site to those praising the wisdom and genius of Tim Montgomerie he would be perfectly entitled to do so.

[Traditional Tory]

No To Nutters - it's vital that right wing extremists like the notorious Mike Smith (AKA -'Traditional Tory')

You must know something of which neither I nor anybody else is aware, NTN.

Please do enlighten us.

[TomTom]

If Tim Montgomerie wanted to restrict comments on this site to those praising the wisdom and genius of Tim Montgomerie he would be perfectly entitled to do so.

but very unwise.....

[james Cullis]

DC is making a Big Mistake the Mirro is read by ppl who cant understand politics or Conservatism please Dont go there

[Sean Fear]

"DC is making a Big Mistake the Mirro is read by ppl who cant understand politics or Conservatism please Dont go there"

Who says they can read?

[Andrew Woodman]

Have to agree with the posters above. This is a very strange move. The Mirror is a declining dreadful paper which will always seek to attack us no matter what. There are far bigger things to be concerned with than this rag called you a 'Tory Toff'

[david]

The Mirror isn't the problem, its the lack of support from the once loyal Tory press that is. Having said that, even though the Mirror isn't the force it once was, the last thing you want is any editor, opening the morning conference, saying to his/her assembled hacks,' Bring me the head of David Fortesque Cameron.'

[Edison Smith]

Labour have kept largely quiet about Cameron's background because they've realised - quite correctly - that attacking it doesn't play with well with voters.

No one cares about Cameron's background, they want to know what he believes NOW, on issues NOW.

For Labour to savagely attack Cameron's background would push them leftward in the voters eyes, and no one likes inverted snobbery - leasted of all when it's coming from Labour trolls who send their kids to private schools and own £250 handbags.

[malcolm]

I made the mistake of working there when the Bouncing Czech owned it.What a place! There were a few true believers like John Pilger and Alastair Campbell but most of the hacks knew they were writing rubbish. Most had little pride in what they did and that lack of pride is evident everyday in its editorial.Since then, (1991) the Daily Mirror has shed circulation significantly every year and the continued viability of the Sunday Mirror and particularly the People is a real question now. I very much doubt that Mirror Group Newspapers will continue for much longer in there present form.

[Paul Oakley]

Aw, bless. You must admit that it was quite sweet for Dave to approach the Mirror in the hope of getting them on side. Although there's sense in convincing the Guardian/Observer about our green agenda, this exercise really was a waste of time. Not everyone is going to like David Cameron's Conservatives! Let's hope he takes their lack of hospitality on board and responds with a firm and perpetual V-sign.

[Joseph]

Bit strange really that the very same people who are pulling the "Mirror" to pieces are quite happy to have the ex-editor of the "News of the World" on board.
I would not put into print just what I think of that rag.

Do we now take it that as the "Mirror" is only read by morons who wrap their fish and chips in it (That is of course "IF THEY CAN READ TO START WITH") the Conservative party is going to issue a statement saying that unless one reads the "Times" or the "Torygraph" or any other quality paper please do not bother voting for us as we do not wish to attract the "OICKS" or any of the great unwashed peasants.
Only those who have attended Eton, talk with a plumb in one's mouth or have been to Grammar schools need apply.
This is tant ammount to snobery and nothing short of patronising to people of working class origins, and for those wishing to disagree I would suggest they read the whole of this thread.
I would not feel exactly very proud of myself if I had have been reduced to writing some of these posts.

[malcolm]

I wouldn't be too proud if I wrote your last post Joseph.Not if I were you.

[Richard Carey]

I agree, Joseph - and I think you've provided some of the more sensible thoughts on this thread!

Firstly, a note on the Mirror. Having read some of Kevin McGuire's columns in the Mirror on the subject of Tory politics, I've found the constant attacks on Cameron's background and education puerile and childish to say the least. I can only imagine the outcry there would have been if McGuire had written that "Cameron's father was a street-cleaner and sent him to the local sink comp? Can you imagine this man as PM?". We've all come from somewhere, some of our families have been able to give us more advantageous starts than others, but the overwhelming majority have all tried their best for their own children. Nobody try and twist that in the name of inverted snobbery please, it demeans parents.

Secondly, on the comms strategy. I think it is quite right we try and open up dialogues with any media outlet that could help us get our message out. TomTom suggested above that we should focus on pure policy, but policy without any media channel to commmunicate it is pretty useless electorally. The two things are complementary. Given the Mirror's stance, it was unlikely to be run over (sorry, genuine typo - Freudian?) won over in one go, but I think the only mistake in hindsight might have been to take the meeting at such a high level. I don't know the background to this meeting, but perhaps DC might have staffed it out initially. Have the Communications Director (I know, not in post quite yet) or a deputy meet the guy first, and make sure he's going to say something positive before you let him meet the boss, especially if it's a journo who's going to be desperate to leak it given the chance.

Perhaps none, but the whole idea of trying to get elected as a future PM and a future government is to appeal to all and sundry not just the Tory faithful. With comments like this... you will all still be only talking to one another in another ten years from the opposition benches.

And to reach a range of people, we need to cultivate a full range of media outlets - some we'll win over, some we'll lose (as long as I don't have to talk to Simon Heffer!). That much seems self-evident to me, too, Joseph.

[Joseph]

Whch part in particular do you disagree with Malcolm?

[Joseph]

That is what I term pure common sense Richard and I entirely agree with you.
We all have to respect each other's opinions and principles even if we do not always agree with them.
How can one develop any form of understanding with one another if we are not prepared to read and listen, just insulting or trying to confront a person for the sake of it, because we cannot win our argument any other way is futile.
To mock anybody's station in life is even a greater sin in my book, we are all created equal no matter which side of the blanket we are born on. Some are luckier than others.

[Graham D'Amiral]

Of course the Mirror isn't going to back the tories and in all probability will continue taking every opportunity to attack the conservative party, that said it is probably sensible to keep open lines of communication to all the media.

We aren't a lot more likely to get support from the Guardian and the independent either, but if we only talked to newspapers written by tories and read by tories we wouldn't spread our message very far or get much benefit from it.

[Modern Conservative]

I suspect Cameron was just looking for a bit of moderation in The Mirror's behaviour. He made a joke the other day about The Mirror going through his rubbish which I suspect is an invasion of privacy a bit too far as it impacts on every decision every member of his family take.

This was a private meeting and the report of it is the Mirror's Editor's account - I don't believe anything else in his paper so I am not concerned about the anti-Cameron spin he has given to the story.

[Tim Roll-Pickering]

Can someone tell me once and for all just what is the evidence that people buy newspapers purely on the basis of the editorial line? I've never seen any of the major papers advertise themselves on it - even "The Independent" contrasted itself to the-then "The Rupert Murdoch" and "The Conrad Black" rather than their lines. Instead newspapers are using columnist quality, sports coverage and free DVDs as reasons to buy them.

And yes there are Conservatives - and more crucially potential Conservative voters - who read the Mirror. When I worked at M&S it was the paper that was always available in the staff room and widely read by many.

[Joseph]

Yes Graham, you are correct in that assumption, however what it is not very advisable is, for any political leader to pick a fight with ANY Editor, that really is naive. What is more naive though is a political leader with a very thin skin, Mr Cameron is going to have to learn to rise above this, this is part and parcel of public life for those seeking high office and if the heat in the kitchen is too hot.......

[Graham D'Amiral]

When I was a kid my life long tory voting parents used to have the Mirror delivered, so I'd agree not everyone buys their newspaper for its political leanings.

Thre great advantage of a tabloid news paper, is it is light, quick and easy you not looking for indepth coverage of the pension crisis or Global poverty when you pick up the Mirror or the Sun.

[Traditional Tory]

This was a private meeting and the report of it is the Mirror's Editor's account

Indeed it was, and it was a serious breach of protocol for Cameron to refer to this confidential meeting in a public speech.

He also claimed to disclose an actual exchange between himself and the editor, and the fact that this put-down was almost certainly esprit d'escalier is no excuse.

He has only himself to blame for the result which, I have no doubt, somebody will be claiming as 'fantastic publicity'.

As for inverted snobbery, I can still (just) recall the barrage of class-based antagonism which greeted the appointment of Lord Home as Conservative leader and helped secure Wilson's first election victory.

Anybody who doubts that this type of attitude has got a good deal worse among the very socialist voters the party is now trying to attract is seriously out of touch with 'Modern Britain'

[Joseph]

When my father was a boy, the biggest 'cuff round the earhole' he ever had was given to him by my grandfather. My Father mocked a boy for having 5 holes punched into his boots, little did he realise as a well fed youngster himself, that those 5 holes were a sign to a pawnbroker not to pawn those boots as they were "Parish" provided for barefooted children.
The grandson of the boy with the boots is now one of this Country's top heart surgeons and from all account he detests snobbery in any shape or form and makes a point of reminding others just how poor his origins were. His parents as well as grandparents were socialist to the backbone and sadly we have not moved very far along these lines. It is time for all and sundry to move into the 21st Century and forget class warfare, it is a thing of the past and should be left there, it serves no purpose whatsoever.

[Opinicus]

I am more interested in the reported comments of Cameron to Osborne above which no one else has picked up on. What can he mean?

Clearly the way we have been treated by the media over the last fifteen years merits revenge when we get back into office. I offer the following

1) A civil tort of negligent reporting, whereby any journalist and his newspaper are liable for writing/printing anything which they should reasonably know to be false.

2)Investing 50% of the copyright in any photograph in the subject of the photograph unless the right is waived.

3)Transfer all government and QUANGO job advertising from the Guardian to the Telegraph

4)Replace the Board and political editors of the BBC tv and radio with our political appointees.

[Richard Carey]

I am more interested in the reported comments of Cameron to Osborne above which no one else has picked up on. What can he mean?

I think you might have misread that above, Jonathan - I understand the "if you want a war" remark was from Wallace to Osborne, not from Cameron to Osborne as you seem to be implying.

[Matt Davis]

All politicians are entitled, if not expected, to try to win over as much of the media as they can. Equally all of the media are entitled to think and say what they wish about politicians, whether the politicians like it or not.Cameron's approach to the Mirror seems to me to have been a perfectly rational thing to have done, although perhaps his expectations of the likely outcome were somewhat unrealistic in the circumstances.

What does annoy me greatly though are people on this thread calling for anyone else's views to be banned because they personally don't happen to agree with them. That is just plain wrong, is an affront to both free speech and democracy, and ought have no place on a site such as CH that, thankfully, is prepared to entertain a wide variety of differing views. Viscious censorship of those with whom one does not agree is a hallmark of the left, not of conservatives, so I salute Tim and Sam for not having fallen prey to it.

[Modern Conservative]

Trad Tory - All I can say is eh? DC made a joke about The Mirror going through his bins which included a light hearted comment he made to the Mirror Editor. The way you put it you'd think he'd broken the Official Secrets Act (or PC terms ... no that was Gordon Brown).

This is totally a non-story story.

Lot's of non-political voters will read the Mirror and it's two million copies will float around and be read by many more. In the fragmented media world we live in every outlet has value.

[John Irvine]

I don't know why anybody bothers with a Labour rag like the Mirror.

It's pathetic Cameron wasting time like that. Hasnt he anything better to do?

[Joseph]

'I was quite shocked,' Wallace later told a colleague. 'This is a man who wants to be Prime Minister, and he was whining away like a little schoolboy'.

The above is what is going to resonate with the readers and they are going to be asking themselves if they want their future and that of their families in the hands of a grown man behaving like a spoiled child throwing tantrums.
This is another of Mr Cameron's own goals, he has nobody to blame but himself, he ought to have known better.
Sometimes I think that even well educated, clever people seem to lack basic common sense, the person who coined the phrase "Common sense is not so common" certainly got that one right.
No ammount of money or silver spoons in one's mouth is going to buy common sense, one either possesses it or does not, there is nothing in between.

[John Irvine]

Common sense? One wonders whether the man has any brain at all.

He should be up there attacking the Mirror and all the other socialist or more properly communist propeganda rags. He should be attacking all their disgusting policies that have been foisted on us by that traitor Blair.

Winston Churchill, who hated the leftists, would be turning in his grave.

[malcolm]

What in particular do I disagree with Joseph? Mainly your propensity to invent things . Read your post again and you will realise exactly what I mean.

[TomTom]

Only those who have attended Eton, talk with a plumb in one's mouth or have been to Grammar schools need apply.

I think you might find plum tastes much nicer than whatever you put in your mouth........

When we can speak like Margaret Jay and Patricia Hewitt we will know what they did with their damsons

[TomTom]

As for inverted snobbery, I can still (just) recall the barrage of class-based antagonism which greeted the appointment of Lord Home as Conservative leader and helped secure Wilson's first election victory.

That is a bit farcical. After 13 years of Conservative Government a change was in order. Macmillan had run a Cabinet full of his relatives and ended with a scandal and general debility. Home was drafted in but the juxtaposition of 14th Earl Home after the Cavenish Cabinet looked a bit odd against The Whiye heat of technological revolution and the technocratic image Wilson wished to portray

[Roger Alton]

I should just clear up a misunderstanding. One of the dopey hacks in my employ wrote about remarks to George Osborne. This is utterly wrong. He meant to refer the George Eustice - Mr Cameron's spin doctor - who facilitated the meeting on the day in question.
Apologies for the error.

[Matt Wright]

Agree with John F at 11.43. The Telegraph is getting bizzare. I had been going off this paper for a while but it just gets worse by the day now,

Matt

[Opinicus]

@Richard Carey
My mistake, I should have realised DC would be invertebrate in the presence of the media.

[sped]

Just shows what poor media advice Cameron has been getting. hence the appointment and demotion of Eustice to press officer!

Hopefully now professionalism will finally arrive n the CCHQ press operation!

[Joseph]

Read and re-read Malcolm-still cannot find it, plus the fact there are others who profoundly disagree with you.
Your problem is Malcolm, you are so besotted with Cameron you cannot see the plain facts even when they are staring you in the face. Your desperation to win is clouding your judgement.
Try again, see if you can come up with a bit better answer my friend.
Bear in mind you are one of the Cameron faithful it is the likes of me Cameron has to convince,so far he is not making a good job of it,he does not have to convince you, he already has you brainwashed.
As for class distinction it has never made one iota of a difference to me where a person was educated and how well born he was, I have never judged anybody by the pound in their pocket, what I do judge on is character, even an ex-Tory cabinet minister David Mellors has said what Cameron needs is "to find some priciples and stick to them" (Incidentally Cameron worked for Mellors)that does not bode well for your hero does it Malcolm?
I would also go so far as to say he is not even convincing many Tory's who have their feet planted firmly on the ground either.
................

Tom Tom
I think you might find plum tastes much nicer than whatever you put in your mouth...... Insults do not wash I am a bit to long in the tooth for that kind of kindergarden behaviour.

Plus the fact I am not standing for election to become the next PM and as far as I am aware neither is Margaret Jay or Patricia Hewitt. Quite apart from that I find ALL accents nice regardless of where they come from they add to our society not take away. To judge a person on what paper he reads is pure snobbery, nothing more nothing less, that was the point I was making.
I read all the papers online that way I get a more balanced view on what is happening in society rather than one Editor's take on what he wants to peddle. Try it , it certainly broadens the horizons and give a more balanced view.

[Praguetory]

Cameron should have never gone to a meeting with the editor of the Mirror - it was bound to get personal. He should have sent an envoy with the same message (i.e. tone it down).

[malcolm]

Morning Joseph, what an unbearably pompous man you are. Not very honest either. The class thing was raised by you nobody else.
FYI I'm not particularly 'besotted' with DC although he does have some good qualities. I am however anxious to see the demise of this rather disgusting gov't and hope that DC will be the man to deliver the coup de grace.
BTW It is David Mellor, and no Cameron didn't work for him rather Norman Lamont. But hey, let's not let a few facts get in the way of a good smear Joseph.

[TomTom]

Well Joseph since you cannot spell plum but insisted on writing plumb I thought I would point it out humorously - but you seemingly have no ability to discern such, so just improve your spelling instead.

As for Margaret Jay, her accent is false, she is false, just as her Lady Bountiful act at Oxford was false. She is the daughter of a Labour Prime Minister who liked to play the man of the people routine but whose Grammar School-educated daughter acts as if she was Lady Londonderry

As for Hewitt, she is a most odd Australian but she has the hauteur of the daughter of a Senior Civil Servant and CMG in Canberra

You may read everything - some can be more discerning. How anyone can find anything to read in The Mirror or The Sun is mind-boggling, the only words seem to be in the adverts

[richard]

And Callaghan's son of course went to Dulwich College, one of the top public schools in Britain.

[Victoria Street]

Attention, some regular ConHome commenters. Please look at yourselves in the mirror (pun intended). You read a piece authored by the Observer, quoting Daily Mirror journalists, and you believe every word, using each of those words to justify attacks on the personality of the Conservative Party leader.
Words fail me!

[malcolm]

You are, of course, absolutely right Victoria Street. Journalists, broadsheet or tabloid always tell the truth don't they?

[Joseph]

Malcolm, I did raise the class thing and no it was not raised by anybody else, the implication certainly was, it was unmistakable. I was not alone in noticing that.
Not only did DC work for Norman Lamont he also worked for David Mellor (Check your facts I heard Mellor say so distinctly in a TV interview a week past on Sunday on ITV at 6.30 am, repeated later on ITV 2). An apology would be nice once you learn the facts. Lets see if you are so quick with the apology as you were to point out my getting Mellors's name wrong.
Whether his name is Mellors or Mellor that in my view is nit-picking as for being pompous you know there is an old saying--Mud slung is ground lost when you resort to such trivialities.---Try again, your argument is so obviously week when you have to resort to such childish tactics,this is the behaviour of the playground .

[Joseph]

Tom Tom I take it that you are either in your late teens or early twenties and have not quite reached adulthood yet, I cannot make up my mind if you are either going into a second childhood or have not came out of the first one yet, but really what difference does it make if a person can or cannot spell properly. For you information Sir Winston Churchill was a dreadful speller but a very great man none the less (I do not profess to be anything like him that is before you come back with any hab-dab on that one).
As for Margaret Jay and Patricia Hewitt, who the hell cares how they talk, I certainly do not.
What does it add or take away from a mature argument. When you have grown up little further and start to behave like an adult I will debate with you as an adult in the meantime I do not have much patience with adolescent teenagers.

[malcolm]

er,no,I don't think so.You're wrong, so live with it. If you are going to smear people you must be prepared to put up with the consequences.

[Joseph]

Nobody is being smeared, that argument is week and pathetic, your problem is you cannot come back with a decent adult argument and you just cannot bring yourself to admit it. In the meantime regarding the David Mellor argument you are still wrong. Check your facts, I have always been man enough to apologise when I am wrong, that has never been a problem for me, why cannot you?

[Traditional Tory]

Mellors or Mellor. Lady Chatterley or Antonia de Sancha. Not much difference really.

But it's a timely reminder of one of the real reasons the Majorite Tory party became so widely hated.

Trouser-dropping, bedhopping sleaze.

[malcolm]

Yes Joseph, you have smeared Cameron and also the other commentators on this board. You were the one suggesting that the Conservative party did not want the vote of 'oiks' or that people who read the Mirror can't read. Furthermore you have the gall to accuse us of snobbery. All completely baseless smears.
You are also wrong about DC working for Mellor as any consultation with Wikipedia or his biography would conclude. So no I'm not interested in apologising as I've nothing to apologise for no is it me who is being in any way childish ,quite the oppposite in fact. Having said that I'm really not interested in prolonging this discussion with you as arguing with you Joseph I'm sad to say is like taking candy from a baby.

[Comstock]

"You (Joseph)were the one suggesting that people who read the Mirror can't read"

Wrong, Malcolm. Several posters criticised it. Personally I love it. "it's the guts not the gutter" as they used to say.

And love him or loathe him, you can't pretend Cameron is anything other than a toff.

[Traditional Tory]

In comparison with the utterly disgusting Sun, the Mirror is a refined journal of the most elevated character.

[Joseph]

Notice you are taking the loosers way out Malcolm.
For your information, David Mellor gave Cameron his first Parliamentary job after he entered Parliament, I do believe he was a PPA or secretary( I am not quite sure of that, but give him a job he DID) I have tried looking it up with both Google and Wilkipedia but like you I failed, but I know what I heard and there is nothing wrong with my hearing. I can perhaps forget where I laid my specs only to be told they are sitting on top of my head and I can forget which bay I parked my car in and I have been known to ask for 2 spoons of sugar in my tea when I stopped using it 5 years ago, but I do not forget much I hear on political programmes.
Read back on this thread and you will find every remark I criticised on it , not just the selective bits.
No Malcolm I will take you and your type on any day of the week when it comes to political argument and debate.
Bear in mind at 74 years old I have lived it, been there done it and had the Tee shirt, it is only history to you.
Your biggest problem Malcolm, quite apart from silly pride is you are trying to defend the indefensible. It has suddenly dawned on you that just over a year ago you chose the wrong leader. You have reaped what you have sown. You stated:
"I am however anxious to see the demise of this rather disgusting gov't and hope that DC will be the man to deliver the coup de grace".
If in the unlikely event that the Tories do win the next GE, you will have the Blue version of what you have now, so in other words more of the same.
Now why vote for the carbon copy when you have the real thing. Or in other words why wear plastic shoes when you can have leather?

[Traditional Tory]

Whatever. David Mellor was never one of my heroes but he has certainly gone up in my estimation since he identified David Cameron as glib, superficial and flimsy.

Coming from a former cabinet minister that judgment is devastating.

Incidently, Mellor's general cultural background and in particular his musical knowledge is extremely impressive and points up the woeful philistinism of many of the current shadow cabinet, including Cameron whose 'Desert Island' radio choice was utterly, utterly appalling - too bad to be caricatured.

[Joseph]

David Mellor certainly pulled no punches during that interview. It was the W/End immediately after the Grammar School saga. He came on to talk about music but the interviewer asked him to remain on to discuss the Grammar School incident and the conflicting policy announcements.
He started of by stating that he had given Cameron his first job and it was quite apparent to him from the onset that Cameron would reach high office. He went on to say that Cameron should remember he is a Tory and should develop some principles and stick to them. It did not take a brain surgeon to notice he was not exactly very impressed by Cameron and the way he is moving the Tory Party. And yes he certainly did identify Cameron as glib, superficial and flimsy, one was left in no doubt about his analysis of Cameron, Mellor's facial expression spoke volumes.

[Downsize the NHS]

Mellor said Cameron was his research dept assistant in 1992. He objects to Cameron telling everybody to call him "Dave" because its phoney.

Mellor also said Cameron would come unstuck because hes falling out with his own side. Hes an Old Etonian pulling up the ladder of opportunity for working class people.

He said that the Tories should be soaring ahead due to govt incompetence and instead Cameron was making himself the story because of his lack of sensitivity to aspiring working class people

It was a brilliant analysis from Mellor who needs to be listened to by us all, and acted upon.

[Bill]

Whilst no fan of Mellor, he is very interesting on music. I'm not greatly into football so never appreciated his views on that. But I wish I had heard him on Cameron.

[Downsize the NHS]

You can find it through Google. He absolutely trashed David Cameron and then some syco creep came on and started slinging mud at Mellor after he had left. I think he was a Tory candidate for somewhere or other.

[Joseph]

Downsize the NHS | June 12, 2007 at 18:04

Thank you very much for that information. I think I am now owed an apology. Malcolm certainly did not take any "Candy" from this "BABE"

[Downsize the NHS]

Malcolm is just a constipated old miseryguts.

He does nothing but moan about other, more enlightened and, imaginative contributers to this forum.

Hes best forgotten

[Scotty]

"He absolutely trashed David Cameron and then some syco creep came on and started slinging mud at Mellor after he had left. I think he was a Tory candidate for somewhere or other."
What a fine example of unpleasant and prejudiced commenting from both Downsize the NHS and Joseph, don't let the facts get in the way and use the old favourite form of attack by deliberately insulting and undermining Iain Dale in an attempt to "win" the argument.
There is also a link on his website to Tory Radio where you can hear Mr Mellor in all his arrogant glory, the fact that the interviewer, Iain Dale and the other guest all appear to share the same opinion of this failed politician will probable be lost on both of you!!!!
I think that Iain Dale is more informed and fair in his analysis than you two have attempted here.

[Richard Carey]

You can find it through Google. He absolutely trashed David Cameron and then some syco creep came on and started slinging mud at Mellor after he had left. I think he was a Tory candidate for somewhere or other.

That's out of order, Downsize.

We've discussed this interview on this blog before. If you'd like, you can listen to the whole thing courtesy of Jonathan Sheppard of Tory Radio here

Mellor was countered by David Gold, the Conservative PPC for Eltham, who gave a very measured performance focusing on the issues raised. Iain Dale was then interviewed, and rightly took his chance to disagree vociferously with Mellor. It wasn't a matter of Mellor being discussed behind his back, I gather from Iain's blog post discussing this that David Mellor felt that he was above debating this with mere candidates. The phrase "team player" probably doesn't mean much to the man, does it?.

[Richard Carey]

Sorry, Scotty, think we crossed in the posting!

[Scotty]

I see we did Richard, I forgot to mention David Gold but I am pleased that my first ever attempt at a hyper link was a success.

[Traditional Tory]

Mellor was countered by David Gold

David who?

Personally I've always considered Mr Mellor a tad too Europhile for my liking, but I've always respected his intellect and ability which tower above so many of today's politicians of all parties.

His fascinating and erudite radio talks about music provide a timely reminder that far too many of today's candidates know little or nothing about culture; indeed some have few interests whatsoever outside politics.

David Mellor's knowledge of soccer (not an interest of mine) ensures that he is a highly popular media figure who has successfully reached out to the soccer-obsessed working class from the world of wealth, culture and refinement with which he is more readily associated.

Because of this, his views on the current misdirection of the party will be listened to with respect, and repeated often by the media.

[Joseph]

Scotty, to question a person's honesty is a damn side worse when they are speaking the truth as Downsize and a few others have now confirmed.
Of course it is right and perfectly acceptable for people to disagree. What a strange old world this would be if we all thought the same. Ian Dale has every right in the world to disagree with David Mellor as I with you or Malcolm. What one does not do though is to question a person's honesty when they are stating something they actually heard. I would suggest you read Malcolm's post.
I did hear Mellor state that he had given Cameron a job, I was not sure what job and I also stated that.
Lets see just how much back-bone Malcolm has and if he is man enough to offer an apology.
Whether you agree with my opinion or not is your right just as it is my right not to have my honesty questioned when I am stating facts, whether Malcolm finds them unacceptable or not.
Lets see how you handle your honesty being questioned.... unpleasant or not, I took a dim view of it as it was uncalled for, not exactly very gentleman like.

[Downsize the NHS]

You are very right Joseph. I think Malcolm is extremely rude to people he doesnt agree with. He seems to have the kind of arrogant snooty attitude that gets the Tory Party a bad, name among ordinary people.

He should stop behaving like that. Its very offputting.

[Joseph]

Well Downsize, they do say pride goes before a fall and how many people are going to pay much attention or take him seriously now?
All he has achieved is to make himself look like a prize fool and then cut and run when he realised he had lost the argument.
No ammount of people supporting him could condone his actions of questioning another's honesty that is totally bad form and well out of order. Positively inexcusable in my book.

[malcolm]

Just picked up this blog. Thanks for all the compliments chaps you've no idea how proud you make me feel. Had a chance to listen to Tory Radio and listened to the Mellor interview. He does claim that DC worked for him during the 1992 election so for that Joseph I apologise. Feel better now?

[Joseph]

Apology accepted Malcolm and I look forward to having some good debates with you, no hard feelings now.
Yes I do feel much better.
Please feel free to differ with me, that is what good debating is all about. We each have one vote and all we can do is to endeavour to persuade each other to our point of view no matter how widely apart they are at the onset.