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EU and unrestricted economic migration are the biggest vote winners at the next election. if only cameron would embrace this and offer the public policies they want and need the polls would look very different.

he needs to appeal to the people, over the heads of westminster village, and offer them an end to the NuLab policies that are so unpopular in the country.

end economic migration until we no longer have 5m not working in this country. stop our laws being made by the EU.

its really very simple.

During a recent Council By Election round here the one issue that cropped up more than any other on the doorstep was immigration and unfortunately most of the voter's comments were to our detriment for not speaking out on it anymore. Tim is right to say that if balanced with a genuine committment to international social and economic justice then it is possible to talk about immigration and not be portrayed as just a racist little englander.


Out of interest, which part of the country was that, Matt?

Editor,

What is your source for "immigration and race relations are the number one issue of concern for voters"?

A good example of the AND theory at work, Tim!

I don't see the point in the party talking about immigration. It's a hugely important issue, but I see no benefit in it for us. It'll galvanise the parties to the left of us, give publicity to the parties to the right of us, there'll be a lot of rhetoric which the country has seen before so all it'll just fuel ennui and bile. It's one of these issues that is very important but barring some specific, startling development, is probably better quietly worked on in government than banged on about in opposition.

NET immigration figures are meaningless. The overall figure for immigration is all that matters.

What is your source for "immigration and race relations are the number one issue of concern for voters"?

Posted by: passing leftie

Ipsos-MORI Poll.....get out more and talk to people instead of being so repetitiously boring in your mantras

"What is your source for "immigration and race relations are the number one issue of concern for voters"? "

MORI polls.

200k in Darfur? A Coalition for International Justice report two years ago put it at 400k - that's halfway to the Rwandan genocide.

I don't see the point in the party talking about immigration

Then don't. It won't go away and it will resolve itself in other ways over coming years - politics can concentrate of Showbiz and somewhere other solutions will develop

Editor

I had already checked IPSOS Mori, and at the risk of being a "boring" old stickler for factual accuracy, I can see no evidence for this whatsoever. The most recent article mentions that it is the third most important issue. Please point at your evidence, or retract your statement.

If William Hague made his "foreign land" speech today, the vast majority of people would agree with him. The only problem for William would be that he would suffer the same fate as Patrick Mercer as his leader just does not understand the sea change in public opinion that has occurred over the last couple of years.

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/polls/2007/mpm070620.shtml

Mark is spot on. The tragedy for the tories is that the wrong leaders have emerged at the wrong time. Howard, the caretaker, would have been perfect for the first opposition term after 97. IDS should have taken over from him in 01, offering his barrage of reassuring bromides to take us through the sentimental post-Diana period whilst now that opinion is swinging to the right again, we could bring on Billy Hague.
The modernisers are making this mis-match mistake yet again, essentially preparing for a Diana-world election in tough Alan Sugar times.

On behalf of the Labour Party I fervently urge you to campaign on Europe and immigration because it worked so well (for us) before and because in just a few days it would undo all that 'green-and-friendly' shtick that David C has been doing for the last 18 months.

Seems to me we've reached the point in this parliamentary cycle where your traditional bottling moment has arrived - so please get on with it.

And, no I'm not a troll, I'm making an honest point. If you want to help Labour run hard on immigration - you'll firm up your core for sure and squeeze UKIP out, but you'll also remind every Lib Dem/Labour waiverer why they cannot risk a protest vote.

If you want to civilize politics and do yourselves a favour, then steer clear of either immigration or Europe.

Your call - for both sides it's a head/heart thing.

Sean and all,

I stand corrected - sorry. I'm not going to bother arguing with you lot about immigration. I can't imagine I can say anything you'd be interested in.

The most telling figure is the 4% who give a monkeys about Europe and the constitution. Maybe that gives you an idea of the importance you ought to put on it.

Well, let me be more precise. I think there is greater gain to the party, to the country and to politics in general to using opposition to highlight and develop our credentials on other issues. A majority of people want proper immigration controls, but we know that the issue alone won't produce votes. By now, the only arguments on immigration I'll believe, let alone floating voters, are "Look at our tangible achievements, backed up by your day-to-day experiences".

It's not that immigration isn't important, it's not that it shouldn't be a priority in government, but being in opposition is different. You have to pick your fights and win them with, pretty much, only words to show for yourself. Getting stuck in the mud on immigration today won't help the party be in a position to tackle the issue tomorrow.

I found this 10min clip of a presentation about immigration by American Roy Beck very useful.

It's not just us old reactionaries who are getting hot under the collar about immigration and the EU either. I have been talking this week to some young university students who rely on summer vacation jobs to tide them over financially for the rest of the year. Many of them are finding it impossible to find work this year due to Eastern Europeans filling so many of the casual jobs. Guess what, after years of indoctrination by the liberal education establishment that immigration is only positive, these young people are now changing their minds once it hits their prospects. Come on Tory Party don't let us down in our hour of need, many times in the past leaders have emerged to challenge the cosy concensus.

I agree with your analysis Tim - this is where a genuine commitment to & understanding of the "And" theory would bear real dividends.

Interesting what you say about the 2005 campaign. I remember an episode of Any Questions during that campaign or immediately before it, in which DC was given a very rough ride on imigration by those masters of sanctimony Alex Salmond and Simon Hughes, who misrepresented Conservative policy with lethal aplomb. He audibly lost his cool. I would not be surprised if the experience has stayed with him, and that he has decided privately that he will not allow himself to be in such a position again.

As the policy groups start to report, we need to be mindful of a particular pitfall. Francis Maude has often used his "killer slide" to make the case for change: the slide with the evidence that in 2005 people liked the sound of our polices until they realised they were OUR policies. Their dislike of the party outweighed their support for our policies.

The danger is that we will get into the reverse position: people quite like us - or at least don't dislike us - but our polices don't attract support. "Nice face, shame about the legs."

Why on earth accept advice from a labour member? Let me remind our benighted visitor from pinkoland that the conservatives polled more votes in England than his wretched party obtained in 2005. The only reason the left gained power again was because of a corrupted devolution settlement and unfairly tilted constituency boundaries. Tory MPs speak, on average for forty-five thousand voters, whilst the reds represent a mere twenty-two thousand. This didn't stop our pink chum's warmongering leader from crowing, of course, but then nothing would. Let me also remind the same unreconstructed socialist that the conservatives recently wiped his colleagues out in the council elections. Before he proceeds to ascribe this to the Cameron factor, he should consider the fact that many very popular tory councils - I cite Wandsworth - are well to the right of our wet fish of a leader. Finally, I urge all conservatives to remember what snakes and twisters the labour party has offered to British politics in the course of more than the last twenty years. Anything presented to us from such as they should be treated with practiced contempt.

Is Max Hastings a Tory?


I'm not sure how many people who voted Labour or Lib Dem in 2005 are confident that immigration is currently being handled well.


"I'm not sure how many people who voted Labour or Lib Dem in 2005 are confident that immigration is currently being handled well".

As I mentioned earlier, many of those discontents are now younger voters. This is significant and needs addressing by the shadow cabinet. Don't forget that Cameron fitted in well with the junior doctor's campaign, the same could apply in this policy area.

We could easily do a Sierra Leone with Chad and send in British troops.

They wouldn't last 5 minutes against the Paras.

Frankly, if we did this throughout Africa, it would help them 100 times more than pouring billions of pounds of aid into dictators pockets.

We need to be the guarantors of African state stability to make any progress in reducing poverty there.

The 'Any Questions' Simon cites is a useful reminder to us of just how easily Cameron crumbles under any sort of real and sustained pressure. I dread to think about the sort of peevishness and petulance he's going to show during a general election campaign. That *dreadful* Sky interview when Cameron became flustered, asked for them to stop, then start again, before finally trying to vainly embargo their footage is a horrible precedent. He's *still* huffing with Channel Four news of course. And when people in the Party presumed to disagree with his absurd policy on grammar schools, well, we all remember the graceless way he responded to his own members. Cameron is odds on to implode during a long campaign, with any one of half a dozen things likely to set him off - my money would be on that sodding silly Bullingdon photo, as opposed to anything else.

On the doorstep, immigration is quite often the only issue people want to talk about. You can call it racist or xenophobic, but if it's a concern of the people then it needs to be dealt with.

mass immigration is about more than east europeans too. Commonwealth immigration is just as prevalent in London - go to South West London, and you'll see nothing but white south africans. Most have come over in the last few years, but because they blend in more easily are barely noticed.

Please let's not start banging on about immigration again. It's as bad as the constant carping about Europe.

Look at the news today - people suffering from the flooding in Yorkshire and elswhere. They're not bothered about foreign nationals or the fine details of treaties, they've just had their homes wrecked.

These floods are a serious wake up call to us all about global warming. Why isn't Cameron out there reminding everyone how he's led the way on environmental issues? Talk about the greatest threat to the planet, let alone the country...

"They're not bothered about foreign nationals or the fine details of treaties, they've just had their homes wrecked."

Well, let's see if it comes up in the next MORI poll then.

"These floods are a serious wake up call to us all about global warming".

When it's dry and warm it's global warming, and when it's cold and wet it's the same.
How stupid do you think we are.

But theyre good for the economy! So what about crime, overstretched public services, general public sentiment, housing problems, increased congestion, integration issues, language barriers. So long as they line the likes of Lord Sainsburys pockets by working for a few pence less, everythings hunky-dory, right?

Isnt the fact of the matter even if elected officials chose to actually do what the electorate ask of them and curb immigration their hands would be tied by the EU? Not once have i seen the EU mentioned in this text. You cant talk about immigration without talking about our relationship with Europe.

"Not once have i seen the EU mentioned in this text"

Look at my 13.49 posting.

When it's dry and warm it's global warming, and when it's cold and wet it's the same

A fatuous comment, typical of the climate ostriches. Global warming/climate change results in extremes of climate - I'd call those floods pretty extreme, wouldn't you?

If you want to civilize politics and do yourselves a favour, then steer clear of either immigration or Europe.

Labour Manifesto 1997

People are cynical about politics and distrustful of political promises. That is hardly surprising...........

We will stand up for Britain's interests in Europe after the shambles of the last six years, but, more than that, we will lead a campaign for reform in Europe.

Our mission in politics is to rebuild this bond of trust between government and the people. That is the only way democracy can flourish. I pledge to Britain a government which shares their hopes, which understands their fears, and which will work as partners with and for all our people, not just the privileged few. This is our contract with the people.


We will uphold family life as the most secure means of bringing up our children. Families are the core of our society. They should teach right from wrong. They should be the first defence against anti-social behaviour. The breakdown of family life damages the fabric of our society.

Labour does not see families and the state as rival providers for the needs of our citizens.

We will reject the boom and bust policies which caused the collapse of the housing market.

With a new Labour government, Britain will be strong in defence; resolute in standing up for its own interests; an advocate of human rights and democracy the world over; a reliable and powerful ally in the international institutions of which we are a member; and will be a leader in Europe.

Our vision of Europe is of an alliance of independent nations choosing to co-operate to achieve the goals they cannot achieve alone. We oppose a European federal superstate.

Retention of the national veto over key matters of national interest, such as taxation, defence and security, immigration, decisions over the budget and treaty changes, while considering the extension of Qualified Majority Voting in limited areas where that is in Britain's interests.


This is the Manifesto written in the first person as a Promise from Anthony Charles Lynton Blair 10 years ago.......the only thing the general public believe about the Labour Party is that it is seemingly determined to destroy this country by hook or by crook......

These floods are a serious wake up call to us all about global warming.

Sheffield got rid of its steel industry to China; it has lost most of its manufacturing, and relies on retail and government jobs.......must be why the gods of the fire mountain caused the River Don to overflow..........has The Thames overflowed and flooded London ?

Or is this global warming only affecting Sheffield today ?

Maybe it is focusing on the area around Meadowhall showing the evils of rampant consumerism on the site of old steelworks ? It never happened when they made steel

"Look at my 13.49 posting."

I was refering to the article in question, not any specific comment.

Liberal Tory:(1) These floods are a serious wake up call to us all about global warming.
(2) Global warming/climate change results in extremes of climate - I'd call those floods pretty extreme, wouldn't you?

Out of interest, and possibly off-thread, why do you regard the recent low pressure cyclone as proof of, or caused by, global warming?

"A fatuous comment, typical of the climate ostriches"

I'm terribly sorry global warming sheep, I should no better than to have my own opinions in this PC age.

At some stage soon, DC will have to say something about the big issues he has so successfully kept under wraps thus far: Europe, immigration and taxes.
I have suggested elswhere that the tories should promise a referendum on Europe which should be sufficient for the time being.
The other two contentious subjects just need wrapping up in very careful wording and putting into context.
Immigration needs defining, so we can ask opponents: "which category of immigration are you talking about? Asylum seekers, economic migrants or illegal immigrants?"
That generally cools the argument and leads to a high level of agreement.
With taxes, Nulab managed to convince the City that it could be trusted with the economy by pledging not to exceed tory spending budgets for a few years.
By the same token, the tories should now pledge to maintain Nulab spending on the NHS, education, crime and security for three years and also to identify examples of Nulab wasted expenditure (not very difficult) to axe.
With taxation, we should immediately simplify the system and when - and only when - some savings accrue from cutting waste, we should promise tax cuts.

Liberal Tory:

You have the annoying idea that you can choose when people can vote (last nights debate) and what people can talk about.

You got pretty short shrift on the former last night and yet you persist.

The editor has chosen the topic and people have chosen to contribute. It is a serious topic that is being undermined by people like yourself.

If you don't like the topic you do not have to join in. Please have the civility not to lecture those who do and go and find a debate which you are more comfortable with please.

ACT,

I don't think Cameron is the problem - he was receiving poor advice because he had low level media people in senior positions.

He has rectified that now with the appointment of Coulson and demotion of his Press Secretary to effectively Press officer.

I think the Editor is right with a proper balance and nuance of policy and much better presentation now he can become more bold.

Sunny, I understand what you're syaing, but it's a bit too close for my liking to the traditional Tory habit of always blaming the king's evil advisors, and never blaming the king. When cameron, one on one, balls up during a live interview, there's no point in blaming off-stage strawberry farmers, for example.

well presumably said adviser should prepare him for interviews / agree subject areas and soundbytes etc.

I really think media ops will improve under Coulson - it was the one area which went drastically backward under cameron.

At the time of Blairs Iraq adventure i owned a militaria collectors shop, one would have thought customers would have been talking about going to war in Iraq, wrong they allmost all were talking about immigration and you didn't get much nearer grassroots than my shop.

I’m with Passing Leftie that I’m not bothered by immigration. However, lest she runs away with the idea that it’s nasty Conservatives who find it a problem, I’d like to point out that readers of The Mirror were most likely to call it important (57%).

Such has been the success of the race relations industry and its race laws that many people are scared to raise race and immigration in open discussion.
However, if you live in areas such as Bradford, which have changed out of all recognition in a generation, you don't have the luxury of ignoring the problem and many people are openly saying that they will not support a party led by someone who rarely raises this issue, let alone put forward sensible solutions.
Even Cameron must see that this problem will not go away and that we must close the door to further immigration in general until we can sort out the serious problems which excessive immigration has already caused.

Sir Max Hastings' report on immigration is both factual and worrying.
If D.C.continues to address this and other important issues with a middle ground approach rather than that advocated by true Tory supporters, many are likely to question the point of a change of Government whilst others of us will turn to the BNP for solace.

"I’m with Passing Leftie that I’m not bothered by immigration. However, lest she runs away with the idea that it’s nasty Conservatives who find it a problem, I’d like to point out that readers of The Mirror were most likely to call it important (57%)."

But it's only the Tories who net think immigration is on the whole a bad thing.

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