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Who was responsible for this press release? Did Kirkhope approve it? Best not to comment until we know the answers to those questions.

Either Peter Wilding at the Press Office with Kirkhope's permission, or Kirkhope himself.

Release: Immediate

Date: 7 June 2007

Issued by: Conservatives in the European Parliament

Timothy Kirkhope MEP, +32 (0) 2 2845327

I thought it might be useful to see what Mr Helmer actually said, particularly as Mr Kirkhope opened by apparently disassociating himself as Tory Leader from his colleagues remarks:

"German Presidency

Plenary Speech - Thursday, 7th June 2007

"Mr President

"A key focus of the German Presidency has been its determined attempt to revive the substance of the EU Constitutional Treaty, which was roundly rejected by French and Dutch voters in mid-2005.

"We claim to be a Europe of values based on democracy and the rule of law, yet this attempt to resurrect the Constitution in defiance of the clear and expressed views of the voters demonstrates a vast contempt for democracy and for European citizens.

"And the methods proposed are deceitful and dishonourable. We have Angela Merkel's letter in which she proposes "different terminology without changing the legal substance", and "replacing the Charter of Fundamental Rights by a short cross reference having the same legal value". Mrs. Merkel, this is downright dishonest. You should be ashamed.

"Then our leaders will fraudulently pretend that the new Treaty is wholly different from the previous text, and therefore requires no referendum.

"I remind my country's incoming Prime Minister Gordon Brown that he is bound by a clear Labour manifesto commitment to put the Constitution to the British people. He cannot pretend that a few cosmetic changes can invalidate that pledge."

Cheers for that Martin. Roger's comments are true and measured, which makes Mr Kirkhope a cheeky beggar.

Dereinstate Roger!

Why Mike? He's the one being truthful. How embarassing!

I presume you believe there is no room for the truth in politics Mike!

It's not really to do with this.

He's just a loony.

OK, so I am only a thick old Bat - but this is what Timothy Kirkhope appears to be saying :-

We do not need a "Written Constitution" No crisis, so no need. Unspoken, the EU will undoubtedly stitch us up if we did have one!!!

EU trying to negate views of France and The Netherlands, by pushing for a written constitution to over ride them both.

Soften up Merkel by praising her apparent devotion to global warming and poverty. Work with the Lady instead of alienating her.
End of.

Now, you more erudite folk, compare this with the press release. Artistic licence??

What is the problem with this speech please?

UKIPers, Trolls, Nulabs, etc. please queue her to post replies!

UKIPers, Trolls, Nulabs, etc. please queue her to post replies!

Are you all right?

With Tory stalwarts like you telling us nothing is wrong, no wonder this country is sleepwalking into EU bondage.

OK, so I am only a thick old Bat

No comment.

There is a lot wrong Oh Troll, but I dont see the connection between a measured speech, and the hysteria it appears to have generated.

Presumably a 'troll' is somebody who disagrees with you. However ancient you may be, I'm sure my 37 years of membership of this party compares favourably with yours.

Roger Helmer is a true patriot. A great Tory.

Kirkhope is a Eurofanatic. Need I say more?

The word Troll used on websites such as this has probably been introduced from the angling troll, which is to draw a baited line through the water, or to fish by trolling.

I had always wondered what the Scandinavian Troll had to do with websites, and on consulting my little dictionary was interested to learn of the other meaning.

Helmer good. Kirkhope bad. Kirkhope gets support of Hague. Helmer does not. Hague misguided or dishonest?

Weren't there once some ringing words about it being wrong to say one thing
in Britain, and something different in Brussels? Or Strasbourg, for that matter.

European filth has penetrated the House of Lords as well as the Conservative delegation to the EU Parliament.

Lord Pearson of Rannoch today - in HoL

My Lords, if the noble Lord has a little patience, he will hear the kernel of my argument. Former Ministers do not lose their pensions if they fail to uphold the ongoing interests of the country. As I was saying, these noble Lords are proud of their careers in the plush and well remunerated conclaves of Brussels, but of course they are also—here I exonerate the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, if necessary—already in receipt of a generous EU pension, or are looking forward to one. Few people know that EU pensions are unusual in that holders of them can lose them if, in the opinion of the Commission and the Luxembourg court they,

"fail to uphold the interests of the European Communities".

A large and growing number of noble Lords feel that these pensions should therefore be declared in your Lordships' debates, although as far as I know none was declared today, as usual.

Our view is shared by no less a personage than the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, who chairs your Lordships' sub-committee on our declaration of interests. But unusually, and perhaps uniquely, our Privileges Committee itself has just overridden the committee of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, on grounds which appear to me to be almost wholly spurious.

The only 'trolls' around here are people like Annabel who seek to supress open debate by labeling anyone who disagrees with the party line as unworthy of posting.

If she is an example of the way the Tory party is going then there really is no hope.

Richard Tyndall - I think you read into Annabel's comments something which is simply not there. No where has she said anyone is "unworthy of posting". She has merely expressed her views and defended herself against one or two rather silly ripostes.
I couldn't agree more with what she said - I simply cannot see what all the fuss is about!

Richard Tyndall is right, but it goes further.

On the EU there have always been people in the party - probably many more in the past than today - who like to tell us 'I can't understand what all the fuss is about. People are bored with Europe. Why can't we all be one happy party?'

It would be hilarious if we weren't talking about the independence of our nation and the determination of many to destroy it.

I haven't yet forgotten that when I joined the party in 1970 it was totally dominated - yes dominated - by Eurofanatics and their clones. To give them credit many subsequently changed their minds. Others passed to the great Eurodustbin in the sky.

But a hard core still remains. Never forget that.

Traditional Tory - how did you vote in the Referendum? I asked a UKIP candidate this and he claimed he could not remember.

I remember it well. I campaigned for 'Keep Britain in Europe' along with fellow YCs including one who later became a well-known government minister under Thatcher.

We got pictures in the local paper with our 'battle-minibus' information stall etc. and were helped by assorted liberals and other members of the ciabatta-eating classes. (possibly ciabatta hadn't been invented then)

On the day, the future minister and I both voted to pull out of the EEC, despite the stirring speech he'd made that week to the ladies' branch telling them about its multifarious benefits.

Two-faced? Well the climate of Tory opinion was different in those days.

Congratulations on your honesty, Traditional Tory! No one criticizes you if you have changed your views since those days. Anyone is allowed to change their mind. I think you are wrong however to assume that the climate of Tory opinion was necessarily that different back then.

Reverting to the topic - I still do not see the problem!

Better take on trolling from Timberwolf, Trad. Tory!
If you like, I "Trolled" you took the bait, and are the one left standing.
I was a YC branch secretary in 1957 actually, but I dont feel the need to bang on about it.
As a confirmed Eurosceptic, I feel that we will only get an enraged reaction from the EU if we "troll" through their precious beliefs.
The EU can only be changed and democratised very quietly, and firmly, from the inside.The groups borders, (check your psychology lectures) are now firmly shut.
In 2009, we set up a new grouping of MEPs who are already IN this closed group, and they can then start some sort of reformation and democratisation.
OK I was just trolling you when I said I was a thick old Bat. Ancient yes, thick no.
Now I seriously think this thread should stop all the trolling and provoking behaviour, and settle down to the argument - that is if there ever was one in the first place, which I doubt.

Unbelievable! To accuse someone like Annabel Herriott of being a troll. Simply unbelievable! Shows how out of touch you are. As regards your own post.You're right it was 'two faced'. Why am I not suprised?

Well said, Malcolm! I know you and I don't agree on everything - but we certainly agree that people such as Annabel should be accorded a little respect for the years of hard work they have given to our Party!

Sensible advice in your last paragraph, Annabel - and the silence from others on the substance of the thread is deafening! I suspect it is a "storm in a teacup"!

Well I've been out all day assisting at our local fete, despite the weather.

I didn't call Annabelle Herriot a troll, although she was the first to chuck the word around.

Typical one-sided splenetic indignation from Malcolm. If he didn't exist you'd have to invent him.

The real problem hear is that Timothy Kirkope and/or the Conservative Press Office tried to create the impression that the leader of the Conservative's in the European Parliament had made a robust speech in the European Parliament in which he attacked "the Government for not being straight with the people". The reality was of course very different.

This is a very serious matter. How often does this happen? Can we believe any future party press releases from Europe?

Roger Helmer once again gave a speech that is in tune with the vast majority of the Conservative Party membership and the country as a whole.

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