Brown bounces

As warned yesterday evening, two opinion polls this morning will put a smile on Gordon Brown's face.  An ICM poll for The Guardian* gives Labour a 4% lead and YouGov for The Daily Telegraph* puts the  Labour lead at 3%.

I cannot find any below-the-headline-detail within The Guardian coverage but there is additional information from YouGov:

• Brown enjoys a 35% to 23% advantage over Cameron on who would be the best PM - this contrasts with a 30% to 25% advantage for Cameron in April.
• Labour is back in the lead on economic competence; 35% to 27%.
• By 52% to 37% voters believe that it is possible for Labour to enjoy a fresh start under Brown.
• 43% are optimistic in some way about Brown as PM but 49% are not optimistic in any way.
• By 48% to 25% voters think Brown is an asset to Labour.
• By 37% to 28% voters think the 'new' Cabinet looks much the same as the old one.

Fieldwork for the ICM survey began after Brown became PM on Wednesday and was finished on Thursday night.  The Telegraph says simply that their YouGov survey was only undertaken after Brown became PM.  It is possible that these polls will only have captured some of the early honeymoon effect, therefore.  Yesterday's newspapers were, for example, very positive about Brown's Cabinet.

Today's Telegraph also covers David Cameron's embrace of 'the politics of and':

"In Wednesday's speech, which was overshadowed by Mr Brown's coronation as Prime Minister, Mr Cameron said he believed in "the politics of and" rather than of "or".  The party leader, according to Conservativehome.com, delighted some shadow Cabinet members, when he said they would be "committed to protecting the environment and would be a party of free enterprise; a party that was tough on crime and its causes - particularly family breakdown; a party that would campaign for a referendum on the EU treaty and would prioritise international development"."

* The changes shown in the graphic above are different from those reported in The Guardian and Telegraph.  That is because ConservativeHome compares with the most recent polls by ICM/ YouGov for any media organisation rather than for the most recent poll for that particular media organisation.

Comments

[R.Baker.]

It gets better by the day,for Brown,Dave needs to come up with something really substantial before the recess.

I know a few who will be calling for DC to go by the end of September if we dont get back in front by then,many of them post on here regularly too.

[Common Sense]

R. Baker - are you a mad UKIPer or a Labour troll? You say:

"I know a few who will be calling for DC to go by the end of September if we dont get back in front by then,many of them post on here regularly too."

Tell you what, let's have list of names so we can judge for ourselves how much weight we should attach to these calls. This is virtual reality politics. A poster with a bogus name warns that other posters with bogus names will be calling for the dismissal of the most successful Tory leader for years because the new Labour PM is enjoying a bounce in the polls.

It's strange, isn't it? Brown is trying so hard to position himself as a centrist. Why? I wonder what he knows that our foaming chums on here don't? Perhaps that elections are won by the leaders who can most convincingly portray themselves as moderate. That's why Maggie played it softly softly in 1979 but could afford to move right against a self-evident extremist like Foot in 1983.

I admit that there are some Tories who want to get rid of DC. They are the thick and the mad - the people who have despised him from day one. The Simon Heffers and Edward Leighs who pose as incorruptible men of principle and keepers of the true faith but have no idea what it takes to win a general election and probably don't care about the result as long as they have the satisfaction of emoting and posturing.

Cameron has the right strategy for beating Brown. His critics haven't a clue.

[CCTV]

have no idea what it takes to win a general election

and had no role in writing the 2005 Manifesto or running the campaign.....yes that is true.....who did write the manifesto and run the campaign ?

[cleo]

The party has to hold its nerve and continue with the Cameron agenda. Returning to focus on Europe and tax cuts will show that the Conservatives have not changed and are just like the party of the past and Brown will win.

[EML]

I have to say that Brown has done quite well in his first few days. There certainly haven't been any hiccups and the media have obviously given him a free ride.

It just depends what he does in the next three weeks until the recess. Will he have any big announcements up his sleeve? He's made his appointments and he has gone as far as he can with personnel - unless another defection is in the offing.

We have to keep steady and calm until the immediate gold-plated honeymoon period has ended. Then we'll see what our policy groups report and how well Cameron manages to mould these possible policies into his vision for tackling Britain's social problems.

The two by-elections should be the immediate priorities, especially in Ealing Southall where a shock victory shouldn't be dismissed too easily.

[HF]

The Ealing Southall by election has become very important.

2nd place or better = Progress

[simon]

What we see in the polls is an increasing tendency toward 'mass indecision' in the country about the top 2 parties ( i think the LibbyDems are effectively screwed next Gen Elec). Is it 'indecision'- or a 'could not care less' attitude? We will soon see... If it's the latter we are in trouble.

[English Parliament now]

Brown might be gurning from ear to ear this week, but an email is doing the rounds, which will scare the haggis out of him. Pass it on to everyone in your inbox. Let's see if the "listening Prime Minister" can spin his way out of this one, without revealing his true, dictatorial self -

THE PRO-REFURENDUM RALLY – THE FIGHTBACK STARTS HERE!!

We are organising a Pro-Referendum Rally soon. As rally organisers we do not care which way you vote as long as you get the opportunity to vote. The rally platform covers the full spectrum of British society, and is inclusive of all those people who have a single unifying purpose – to force the Government to hold a referendum on the latest European treaty.

NEWS UPDATE: SUPPORT IS COMING IN FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND ACROSS THE WORLD!!

However the Pro-Referendum Rally will not happen unless YOU ALSO step up to the mark – even if that is just an email wishing the Rally success. However see STEP 2 below for more specific volunteer categories. If you can help contact Dr Jonathan Wilson Email: [email protected]

OUR WEBSITE WILL BE UP AND RUNNING SOON!!

REGULAR RALLY UPDATES TO BE POSTED IN THIS COLUMN!!

Below is the Plan of Action.

1. STEP 1 –THE PARAMETERS FOR THE RALLY
a. The sole aim of the Pro-Referendum Rally organisers is to provide a public event through which all British people may focus their efforts to regain their right to a vote on the latest European treaty
b. The Pro-Referendum Rally organisers do not care which way you wish to exercise your democratic right – just vote!
c. The public event to be peaceful and conducted in full accordance with the law
d. The Pro-Referendum Rally organisers will be non political to the extent that any communications (web, press etc) will deal with organisational matters of the rally only

2. STEP 2 – A SMALL ACTION ORIENTATED STEERING GROUP AND AN ARMY OF NATION WIDE VOLUNTEERS

THE RALLY ORGANISERS NEED THE FOLLOWING FOR THE STEERING GROUP:

a. A good lawyer who can deliver the legal permission for the rally
b. Operations expert to co-ordinate route marshals and the on-the ground activities
c. An qualified accountant
d. An advisor group – people with lots of rally experience and/or public credibility

THE RALLY ORGANISERS NEED THE FOLLOWING FOR THE ARMY OF NATION WIDE VOLUNTEERS:

e. Volunteers
i. As route officials (5 groups – North, South, East, West and Central London – see STEP 3)
ii. In every village, town and city to hang posters, distribute leaflets and collect petitions

If you fit the bill (or you know someone who does) on any of the above categories and want to get things going send an email with a short qualifying statement to [email protected]

3. STEP 3 - THE ROUTE, DATE AND A RALLY AGENDA

a. Subject to revision but would include 4 convenient routes into London, North, South, East and West each starting 5 miles out
b. 4 routes to merge in central London and conclude at Buckingham Palace
c. Date: Monday 3rd September 2007 (provisional)
d. Rally agenda
i. Set up petitions in every village, town and city to collect signatures of those who cannot attend rally
ii. Pro referendum public speakers representing all walks of British society for conclusion of rally

Together we can create a context for the British pro referendum voice to be heard

STEP UP TO THE MARK NOW!!

Contact Dr Jonathan Wilson: Email: [email protected]

Thank you Daily Telegraph for your help

Posted by Dr Jonathan Wilson (Walton-upon-Thames) on June 27, 2007 10:09 AM

[peter]

R.Baker, how dare you write here at the "Save-Dave Home" website (formerly "IDS Home")?

[Raj]

1. Someone remove the spam, please.
2. cleo is right. You guys aren't going to go anywhere by changing direction.

Seriously a conservative (small "c") agenda was tried in:

1997
2001
2005

It didn't work then, and it will not work now. Why is it some people cannot accept that? Because it wasn't hard enough? Oh sure, being even more right-wing will work! :p

As Common Sense said (very apt name), Thatcher won with a moderate position the first time around. She could only have a hard-line position later because her opponent was a left-wing loonie.

Tories cannot rely on Labour being prats anymore - they've changed. You need to keep fighting for that centre ground, even if you carefully remind people from time-to-time that you're more centre-right, because that is where the votes are!

[Ken Stevens]

We certainly have to make allowance for the honeymoon effect.

However, it nevertheless remains essential and urgent to construct and consolidate a distinctive Tory "brand" that is readily discernible within the consciousness of us ordinary consumers/voters. Otherwise it's a Cinzano/Martini situation (.. for those who recall the Leonard Rossiter/Joan Collins TV adverts, where consumers market-researched afterwards could never quite recall which brand was being promoted)

Given that the main parties are striving for supremacy over broadly the same patch of centrist territory, I find myself liking a bit of this party's policy on a topic and a bit of another's on something else, so I'll have a Martini/Cinzano cocktail please.

There needs to be a distinctive plus factor across a core range of topics. At the moment, Mr Brown can easily outflank any little Tory skirmishes. If he did something stunning on EU - perhaps even a referendum - the rug would be pulled from under your feet on everything else, however good your ideas. If it resulted in a return to national parliamentary supremacy, retrieving powers from EU, I would certainly switch my vote to Labour at the next GE, on the basis that all the things I didn't like about that party had a chance of being sorted out in subsequent GEs. I wait with interest to see whether Mr B's intentions on restoring faith in MPs includes reinstating their parliamentary relevance against the current 80% of legislation originating from elsewhere.

I would have mentioned the West Lothian Question as well, except that all three parties seem to have tacitly agreed not to tackle the problem!

[york tory]

Cameron should join the campaign to scrap tax breaks for Buy To Let (BTL) and help to bring some sense back to the housing market and assist First Time Buyers who are now priced out in most places and down to an all-time low of 8.9% of the market.

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/yorknews/display.var.1507104.0.end_tax_break_for_buytolet.php

[Andy Stidwill]

There are 2 important things to watch out for: how long this honeymoon period goes on for, and how high in the polls Brown can take Labour within that honeymoon period.

[Oberon Houston]

Editor, what happened to the "no more long lecturing posts", how many words are in English Parliament's post?

Anyway, returning to the thread and a long winded post of my own, that Brown is enjoying a surge in support is no surprise.

A taylors manequin would do as well as him given the relief most people feel at Blairs dfinally gone. Blair was a self serving populist with no sense of duty and only good insomuch as one cannot do too much damage if you don't actually care. Brown will enjoy a much longer surge in support than most people think, it will only be after his 'changes' take effect that this will really diminish, which is about a year in time frame. This is why he will likely call for a spring election. This gives him just enough time to get traction on policy and on an election footing.

Cameron can do little about this as its largely outwith his control. But he should stay the course and do the best he can, his strategy is good and he can beat Brown with it. A move to the right will only repeat the mistakes of the past. And, sorry Tim, 'and' theory is only just that dressed as change. The bloggers on this site did not elect Cameron to be leader, the members of the party did, by a huge magin.

Ironically CH played a big part in that. Ironic given that this site does not really represent the grassroots, despite best intentions, but largely the right of the party and UKIP supporters. A region of political belief that is a graveyard for those members of the Conservative party who would rather that Labour and Brown were in opposition not power.

[michael m]

Years ago I bought a record from Central Office- the late Iain Macleod's speeches and broadcasts.The record is called "In pursuit of Excellence" I recommend that all Tory MPs listen again to these as they have much to learn.

He showed by the power of a few words how you can demolish a Government. It used to be said that Macleod was the only Tory Harold Wilson feared and when you hear the recordings you will realise why and what a powerful force he was.
Is there anyone in the Party today whom Brown fears? Where is our Iain Macleod?

[David Graves-Moore]

Is it suprising that Brown has bounced Labour up in the polls ? The Conservative Party must start advocating Conservative polices rather than aspiring to be “the heir to Blair”. To quote Malcolm (29th June) out of context “Toryism has become afraid to speak out”. Admittedly this is not entirely the result of David Cameron’s desire to seem trendy, because things have been moving this way for some years now. Look at our pathetic record on the question of political correctness. The Party has been afraid of being called old fashioned, etc.
As an example of the supine way that the Party strives to appear cuddly, look at the departure of Tony Blair.
So Tony Blair has gone at last. Why did we have to endure the sickening sight of a standing ovation for him on his last appearance as Prime Minister in the Commons ? Worse still, why did the Conservative MPs join in (at David Cameron’s bidding) ? Is it any wonder that so many of the public are tired of politicians who do not mean what they say ? Is there really ANYONE on the Conservative benches who admires Blair’s “achievements”, whatever they are supposed to be ?
A final question (for the moment) did any of the Conservative MPs have the courage to do the right thing and sit in stony silence during the applause in the Commons ?

[William MacDougall]

"Common Sense" writes in response to Mr. Baker: "Tell you what, let's have list of names calling for DC [to go by the end of September]"

Well Mr Sense, I see you hide your name too, like many Cameron critics, and supporters, on this site for a variety of good reasons. Anyway, I use my real name, and am still a member of the party (Association Chairman 2001, Parliamentary Candidate 2005), and I certainly join Mr. Baker's call for DC to go. The Party will lose under Cameron because he has alienated the core Tory vote without gaining much elsewhere.

[R.Baker.]

We don't have an Iain MacLeod and that's perhaps some of us are jumping ship.

Imagine the cries and howls on here if an MP of ours jumps in the next couple of months or so.

You can cross me off your lists but I say it as I see it and isn't that what honest Forums/blogs want?

[michael m]

The kind of talk from the likes of William MacDougell makes me despair of this great party. Loyalty clearly counts for nothing these days and that's very sad.

Either we want a Tory Governemnet next time or we resign ourselves to more years out of office, where we can only talk of getting things done and nothing more.

[cleo]

The party will never win if it does not unite behind David Cameron and develop a progessive change programme for government dealing with peoples concerns: NHS, schools, environment, crime, economic stability. Tax cuts, over emphasis on Europe, attacking the leader just hand Brown the next election.

[Martin Bristow]

None of thisshould come as any surprise.It has always been obvious that the lead we held in the polls was "soft".The reality for the Cameron leadership is that even following all the modernisation the Conservative shareof the vote is hardly moved from the 2005 election.

We have wasted the last 18 months pursuing an agenda which made us look like a Blairite party just at he moment that this approach is totally discredited.We have not articulated positive policies that resonate with the demands of the ordinary voters.Instead choosing the agenda of environmentalism, when people really want good schools,streets free from crime,a choicee in health care and lower tax.

[Yet Another Anon]

Imagine the cries and howls on here if an MP of ours jumps in the next couple of months or so
Depends on what context it happens in, there has been a change of Prime Minister and appears to be something of a realignment underway - people are re-evaluating their positions so there could be a number of changes in affiliation regardless of how it is actually a result of differences of opinion between Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, differences of style, or even a rebranding or merely a progression from where things are at that moment based on the opportunity of a perceived change that probably Tony Blair is genuinely mostly in agreement with - anyway the landscape has changed; with this and re-evaluation of positions there will be a number of switches including possibly people who have become Respect councillors, Independents, some Liberal Democrat MP's may defect to Labour and some Conservative MP's may defect to Labour, equally though some Labour MP's even of a Fabian outlook who have Libertarian attitudes. Equally though there is the possibility of defections from the Conservative Party to UKIP, the English Democrats and Cornerstone if it felt that the Conservative Party had lost it's way even forming it's own party.

Labour will be stronger as a result, but it does not neccessarily mean that the Conservative Party will be weaker as a result, the problem for the Conservative Party is not just one of getting Labour out of the way, but also one of having sufficient strength to form a government - the next election is going to be fought on a more intellectual basis than any in living memory, something more like the 1966 campaign in many ways probably. White Heat of Technology and focusing on innovation and David Cameron's problem is that he has found an ideal strategy for fighting the 1997 General Election which was when people were a bit fed up with politics and wanted something nondescript which was how Tony Blair presented himself at that time.

While there is still an aversion to any notions of having a substantial shift towards nationalisation prevalent in fringe Labour and Liberal Democrat elements or radical libertarianism favoured by elements of all 3 main parties, there is on the other hand now also an aversion to image based politics. People are wanting a more ideas based approach, and do not want a blurring of positions presented as being moderate - so people such as Jon Cruddas, Gordon Brown, Ed Balls, David Miliband, Vincent Cable, Nick Clegg, David Davis, IDS, Peter Lilley, John Redwood, Edward Leigh and Nigel Farage are all far more appealing to voters than before;, on the other hand people such as Peter Mandelson, Tony Blair, Charles Kennedy, David Cameron, Francis Maude and all the others who might spend more time on thinking about their image than actual policy thinking - people are sick of them now and want a harder edge but one based on solving problems not on appealing to class politics.

[Pete]

We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over.

Aneurin Bevan
(1897 - 1960)

[Bruce Mackie]

It is indeed refreshing that the name of the late Iain MacLeod has been referred to in this Forum. Now there was a real Conservative whom many contributors and MP's and especially those in CCHQ and the Leadership of the Party should be reading some of his speeches and broadcasts. The Party took a long time to recover from the death of this man. I had the privilege to have met him on one occasion and was in awe of his great oratory and the depth of his understanding of the deep feelings of Conservatism.This Party is greater than anyone and we should all strive to ensure that we are once again accepted as the natural Party of Government. We have gone a long way from these high standards and we must get back to them without further hesitation. No one should forget that it was the Iain MacLeod reforms of the Party which gave to more power to the Constituency Party to choose their Candidate without over interference of CCO(which we once referred to it as).Ater all it is the Constituency Party and it's Officers who have to work their butts off to get their Candidate elected.
Time to reflect I think.If a Party does not know it's history then it will never know the direction in which it should go. I say this as one of the older members and whom some in here would want to be put out to grass.I have track record of service to this Party which many of the 'fly by night' contributors will never achieve. So I don't make these points without giving some thought to them.

[Bill]

Well said William MacDougall. Despite his faults, Brown has outsmarted the Cameroons with his ecumenical and less fluffy approach. Whilst I always thought the Cameroons were out of touch, to think aping Blair was the way ahead when the nation was sick of his style was a massive blunder.

[Afleitch]

Once again we have people calling for Cameron to go because they personally, feel alienated. The party does not 'owe' you his head on a platter because you feel alienanted by his approach to policy.

As for the record I was a local council candidate for the party this year. Unlike some who have posted I am more than ready and willing to fight for this party and rally round it's leadership in this race to the next General Election.

[Richard Tyndall]

Michael M.

why should we show the party any loyalty when it shows none to us? A party is simply a means of refelcting the political will of its members and supporters. If that party stops reflecting the views of its members then it no longer deserves our support.

[TomTom]

The Party took a long time to recover from the death of this man.

Without his untimely death shortly after the 1970 election the Heath years would not have been such a disaster, if only because Barber would not have been Chancellor as a cipher for Heath who wanted to run The Treasury himself and made a catastrophic mess

[R.Baker.]

We are already paying the price of Dave being the leader,we are slowly bleeding to death, and each day he embraces the Environ-mental cause,we are continuing to lose Members,most of which are of the long standing type.

Prepare thy self for slaughter,for if you believe that Dave is on target with his ideals,the rest of the Membership and political world believe he is being misinformed and perhaps,badly advised.

Let's be fair,this has happened in the past and on more than one occasion as well.

Call me what you wish,but don't call me to support David Cameron.

[Bill]

Cameron needs to get his priorities right (fat chance). Chocolate oranges and windmills appear to be his forte. Cameron is out of his depth. He sacked Mercer and then waited to replace him. Now terrorism is once again evident on the streets of Britain. And the Tories appear to have let Labour grab the security high ground.

[malcolm]

What a completely unedifying if predictable thread. It seems that some so called Conservatives seem to hate our leader far more than they dislike Gordon Brown. If Cameron fails then the Conservative party fails and the socialists will have governed for a generation. Is that what you (Bill,Macdougall, RBaker) really want? Surely you aren't stupid enough to believe that the Conservative party could dump its leader again and still win the next election are you?

[peter]

Surely you aren't stupid enough to believe

See, R.Baker, I told you this was "Save-Dave Home"!

[Richard Tyndall]

You have not answered my question Malcom. Why should I support, campaign for and vote for the Conservative party if that party no longer reflects my politcial views?

[malcolm]

Because if you don't Richard, you will be governed by the Labour party. Your choice, your decision,I hope you make it wisely.

[Iain]

Cleo , its not a matter of returning to a focus on Europe and tax cuts, its a complete absence of Cameron and his team in recent days when they should have been out there fighting and taking the gloss off Brown's coronation, one thing is for sure the BBC ain't going to do it for them , for they regressed 10 years to their default Labour love in mode.

For example...

Where you aware that the last thing Gordon Brown did as Chancellor, to quote from the F.T.

'Gordon Brown quietly slashed by a third this year’s hospital building and equipment budget in one of his last acts as chancellor.
Prompted by the tightness of the public finances, the new prime minister, who has placed the NHS as his “immediate priority”, cut the capital budget of the English NHS for 2007-08 from £6.2bn to £4.2bn. The move could delay the government’s hospital building and reconfiguration programme in England.
However, Mr Brown avoided equivalent cuts to the Scottish and Welsh NHS budgets even though the funding formula for the UK nations suggests they should have shared the pain. That decision leaves him open to criticism that he favoured patients in his home country.'

Now this makes a lie of all Gordon Brown's recent posturing on the NHS, it also highlights the conflict of interests Gordon Brown has being a Scottish elected PM ruling England. But where is Cameron ? Nowhere, perhaps he doesn't want to side with 'sour faced little Englanders'

Then there is Gordon Brown's nomination of Shriti Vadera as a junior minister for development. Now this lady came to notoriety in her attempt to push Rail Track into insolvency, some of her emails gave us an unpleasant glimpse of the workings, spin and manipulation at Gordon Brown's Treasury. Warburg’s, the bank she was seconded from made a nice little killing as well. Exposing her destroys Brown's spin that this is a new changed Government putting trust back in Parliament. But where is Cameron and his team? No where.

Finnally there is Gordon Brown wrapping himself in the Union flag, claiming he will have a Government for the country, but that is at odds with the Claim of Right Gordon Brown signed stating …. We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount.", But where is Cameron and his team? No where.

If Cameron and his team are as hungry for power as they claim they are, then they have got to get out there and get fighting and get dirty, being nice and inoffensive gets you pushed to the back of the queue.

[Richard]

Fickle electorate?

[Richard Tyndall]

So then Malcolm, if the only way the Conservatives think they can get into power is by mimicking Labour then why should I be botherd which of them is in power.

A Conservative party committed to high tax and spend, continued grovelling to the Europhiles, useless hand wringing over environmental scares, a failed education system, concreting over the country to build houses for millions of immigrants and a burgeoning social support system paid for by those of us stupid enough to actually work for a living is not a party worth supporting.

[Richard Tyndall]

And before you ask, yes, I do believe that is the party that Cameron is trying to turn the Conservatives in to.

[Josh]

There's definitely a bounce. Even I'm feeling it. Seeing this psychotic character on TV finally as our PM completely changes my view of him. He's now somewhat loveable, almost possessed of a teddy bear quality. He may be a dour Scot, but he's OUR dour Scot.

In fact, I think the run up to the handover possibly could make the bounce bigger than it did with John Major, because there's a feeling of excitement that the moment we've been waiting for so long is here.

If I'm feeling it, imagine how the floating voter must be feeling.

[Josh]

One bit of good news now that the handover is complete: Cammy will have to focus on the issues rather than trying to score cheap points off matters concerning the Labour hierarchy.

[Oberon Houston]

I find it surprising that so many people who come on this site (who are clearly interested in politics) cannot tell the difference between the Conservative and Labour party.

Surely it would be worth the while to nip down to Waterstones political section, and buy "Politics UK" and take the time to read about it before going 'evangelical' about tories being labour or missing the message in the 'air to Blair' phrase

ISBN 0 130 99407 3.

Who says I lower the tone?

[CCTV]

cannot tell the difference between the Conservative and Labour party.

You are of course correct as a Scotsman Oberon - Labour is a national party - Conservatives are a regional party

[Robert Mansfield]

If Cameron is to succeed, he really needs to start shifting the party towards it's traditional roots - that's how we win elections.

He needs to stop all this wishy-washy centre-ground politically-correct rubbish which makes him look like a fool compared to serious Brown.

If he can't do that, then he shouldn't be the leader of our party.

[Genuine Conservative]

The electorate are starting to see through the Blairite smoke and mirrors that have so far characterised the Cameron era. Unless there are some substantial policy announcements soon that reassert that the Conservatives believe in specific things that make us different to the other two parties and that will improve people's lives then we will lose the voting public's support to a Brown administration that knows what it wants to do and how to do it.

As both the opinion polls and experience on the doorstep unequivocally prove Conservative policies were popular at the last election, but the party and its leader were not. The big lie so often put forward by the LibDems in drag currently ruining the party is that it was out policies that the electorate didn't like, that just was not and is not true.

If Cameron is to save himself and our party then he needs to stop this vacuous middle ground rubbish, that means nothing to anyone and doesn't give anybody a reason to vote Tory rather than LibDem or New Labour, and put as much effort into creating a sound attractive conservative policy platform as he has into his failed attempt to woo the LibDems.

[Save The Hague]

someone states an e mail is doing the rounds that will scare Brown witless, and it's title?
THE PRO-REFURENDUM RALLY – THE FIGHTBACK STARTS HERE!!

Can I just say, as a Labour activist, I pray to good that the Tories get themselves embrolied in europe again.Remember Hague's spectacularly successful 'save the pound' campaign in 2001? As for Cameron you may as well stick with him.I expect Labour to win the next election in any case, changing a leader at this stage will just increase the margin of that defeat.

[Richard Tyndall]

Oberon,

Since it has been part of Cameron's plan all along to make himself as much like Bl;air as possible it is hardly surprising that people take him at his word. Nor should his supporters be surprised when the whole thing backfires as it is now doing.

[Bradford]

Election

Obviously the Hague Machine is not very noticeable in Northern England.....then again it would appear Labour intends to fight hard in the South of England and pressure Conservatives there so they don't make any impact in the North.......looks like the old problem of trying to shore up the core vote in key seats will be the backfoot onto which Brown will force Cameron & Co.

Just what has Hague achieved in Northern England ?

[malcolm]

OK Richard, if that's what you think (personally I think what you've written is total rubbish) then why don't you go and campaign for a party that shares your views instead of sitting there whining ineffectually? Don't complain though if Labour wins the next election will you. You and people like you will have allowed it to happen.

[Richard Tyndall]

Actualy Malcolm I do campaign - probably far more than you and almost certainly more effectively. But I do it based on targeted policies and principles rather than blind obedienc to a party simply because it has a particular label.

Why should I care who wins the next election if none of them are going to follow the principles I believe in?

It is people like you with your blind support for the party no matter what it does which have allowed us to get into this sorry state.

So don't complain when a future Tory government stabs you in the back. You will have had plenty of warning.

[Martin Bristow]

This is really desperate stuff.The situation can still be turned around but the Leadership must change tack.It is no great pleasure to me to see Labour's bounce but it was inevitable.Our lead was built on sand.Cameron has improved the presentation but he really does need some substance.

It was a grave error to give the impression that we supported Labour on Tax and to follow this with an abandonment of selective education.Both of these are inherently popular but we have wasted a8 months pretending that they can not be achieved.

To move things forward we must come up with a positive conservative prescription that emphaises:

The Family,Lower Tax,excellence in education.Zero tolerance to crime,strict immigration controls,a repatriation of power to our parliament from Brussels and a migration of decision making powers to local communities.

These are the things we should have been doing over the past 18 months.Embracing the new labour social democrtaic way has not produced any gain.Tjose who think it has should look at our election performance in 2005 and contrast it with the recent polls.

[TomTom]

personally I think what you've written is total rubbish

Well there's inclusivity and compromise in Malcom's world.....but why should anyone worry if Labour wins the upcoming election, which it loks odds-on to do, when the parties are so similar with Labour having set the agenda ?

The only difference is Malcolm is purely a party loyalist that cares only about his team winning irrespective of how or why. The electorate has moved on from such cliquish attitudes which is why party membership is only for those who need it for their jobs

[malcolm]

And of course I should applaud you too Tomtom, you of the unrivalled ability to sneer at all and sundry.One day perhaps, one day you might suggest one positive idea that the Conservative party or indeed anyone else should adopt to better this country. Until then, I'll watch with amusement you displaying your faux intellectual skills combined with your ability to google anything whether it is relevant or not to the subject at hand.
Richard Tyndall, if what you write on this board is in any way indicative of your campaigning skills God help your constituency party.

[Martin Bristow]

Well Malcolm what are the ideas that you think will win over the voters?you can not challenge others without steching out your own policy preferences in some detail can you?

[Oberon Houston]

Regarding the 'Heir to Blair', many missunderstand what Cameron was meaning by this statement (which makes it too clever by half). What he really meant was that when Blair admitted that the Thatcherite revolution would not be undone, and that a progressive consensus had been reached in popular politics. Cameron was implying that he would progress this and be the 'true heir to Blair'. This was a dangerous statement as the ability to be badly confused with aping Blair.

[Richard Tyndall]

Malcolm,

who says I use my skills on behalf of the party? There are far more important things to campaign about than getting one particular bunch of second rate nobodies elected to Parliament.

This is what you clearly forget Malcolm. Most people who vote Conservative or campaign on Conservative issues have absolutely no loyalty to the party at all. Nor should they have. They only support that party as long as it is is advocating policies which they agree with. It is only a tiny clique of people who actually take this party rubbish seriously. The rest of just want an government which will govern according to our wishes and aspirations and an opposition which will oppose when the government is not answreing our needs.

If the Tory party ceased to exist tomorrow there would be few tears shed in the country. It would simply be replaced by something else which might hopefully be rather more representative of the wishes of the people.

Policies and principles matter. Parties most certainly do not.

[TomTom]

And of course I should applaud you too Tomtom, you of the unrivalled ability to sneer at all and sundry

Oh come now Malcolm, you are the sneering second-rater. You are the one without an idea in your head but a mouth full of advertising mush and a sneering contempt for anyone who challenges your complacent mediocrity.

Comments like your faux intellectual skills amuse since my educational background is superior to David Cameron's; so now we know what you think of him.....and I agree.

[TomTom]

If the Tory party ceased to exist tomorrow there would be few tears shed in the country. It would simply be replaced by something else

Personally I think that is Cameron's long game

[Martin Bristow]

It is troubling that those most openly loyal tothe leader seem reluctant to articulate their detailed policy preferences.What should Cameron do now surely he can not continue as previously? which policy areas should come to the fore and what should policy be?

[malcolm]

Delighted to hear that you campaign so hard on policies and principles Richard. Perhaps you would like to tell us of your top 50 policy successes or if you can't do that how about 10? Or if that's impossible what about 1?
Tomtom I am supremely uninterested in where you were educated or whether it is superior to David Camerons or not. Wherever it was left you completely unable to argue for anything positive but given you an unrivalled skills in sneering and an amazing superiority complex.
Martin, what would I like most from a new government? Most of all competence.Whether DC is able to deliver that or not is sadly unknowable unless and until he has had the opportunity to try.
In policy terms I am most interested in his ideas on social responsibility.If he is able to implement them successfully I do believe that he will be able to do two things both of which are to me extremely important. The first is to encourage people to take responsibility for the broken society that exists in too many parts of Britain. Secondly he should be able to begin to discourage the ideas of those who believe that only the state could or should take responsibility for everything that happens in the UK.
If he is successful I would hope then that he would be to deliver welfare reform, lower taxes,a more entrepenurial society etc etc.that so many of us want.
Yes I want Grammar Schools,draconian curbs on immigration and an immediate withdrawal from Iraq too,none of which is on offer from Cameron.But I'm prepared to settle for some chance of better government for Britain under Cameron rather than absolutely no chance whatsoever under Labour which is the only other realistic choice available.

[TomTom]

and an amazing superiority complex.

but I am superior to you Malcolm, in every respect...a fact you make plain in your comments

[malcolm]

There you go again tomtom.Unbelievable isn't it?!!!

[Richard Tyndall]

Well, I was one of a handful of peple who helped get rid of the last Labour MP in Newark. Running a website and campaigning to highlight her failings resulted in myself and my associate being reported by the MP concerned to the Sergeant at Arms because the only way she could fight us was to try and get us into trouble for having used the Portcullis on our website (we hadn't realised it was illegal - stupid mistake but shows how desperate she was.)

We by no means claim to have been solely responsible but our campaign certainly helped elect a Tory MP.

I also run one of the main news and information newsgroups for the Eurosceptic movement with over 300 activist members. Again nothing that will change the world but it certainly helps keep peple active.

Well you did ask.

[Richard Tyndall]

Don't worry Malcolm,

whenever you come on here with your pro Cameroon script and your excuses then people like TomTom and I will always be here to try and put you back on the straight and narrow and show you the error of your ways.

[TomTOm]

There you go again tomtom.Unbelievable isn't it?!!!

Posted by: malcolm | July 01, 2007 at 17:34

Not at all and your constant drawing attention to your inferiority makes you seem doubly stupid. You would do well to desist with personalised attacks and focus on issues.

[R.Baker.]

looks like Malcolm has just lost 6 love to both TomTom and Richard Tyndall.Got to admit it guys,you lured him in for the kill expertly.He never saw it coming did he?
Perhaps Malcolm would enlighten us all with a brief paragraph of his endeavours on behalf of the party this year?

[malcolm]

Richard Tyndall should be congratulated if he helped get a Conservative MP elected which is obviously a good thing.He did say though that he did not like to spend his time getting 'second rate nobodies elected to Parliament'. I hope that the new MP for Newark is not the person to whom Richard is referring. I also would hope that this MP does not dislike the party as much as Richard appears to.
As regards the great Tomtom RBaker neither I nor anyone else who crosses him 'loses 6-0'or by any other score. He has after all only an ability to sneer, no ability at all to put forward a constructive viewpoint
about anything so having a debate is quite difficult.
As regards my own endeavours,nothing very remarkable I'm afraid. Was elected a councillor with a sharply increased majority and spent quite a lot of time canvassing on behalf of others in an election where we took 10 Labour seats and 4 LibDems and won overall control.What have you done yourself RBaker

[Richard Tyndall]

I helped get him elected because he was a better man than the previous incumbent. That said that was not a difficult target to beat.

He also happened to become a friend after the event so I would reserve judgement on whether being a politician has completely ruined him as it does almost all the others.

His party affiliation had nothing to do with it. As I have mentioned in other threads I do not for a moment consider party name when deciding whether someone is worthy of support and votes. I would happily campaign for people like Frank Field and Kate Hoey if I lived in or near their constituencies. At the same time I would do everything I could to see Ian Taylor and Ken Clark lose their seats.

The fact you are an elected councillor unfortunately reduces your standing in my eyes. That is no reflection on you per se, simply that I hold almost all elected officials in contempt - particularly those who view service to a party as more important than service to their electorate.

[malcolm]

Sorry that you don't like elected officials Richard,it seems a rather weird stance to take.Like most other councillors that I've met my primary allegiance is to my electors.
I too quite like Kate Hoey and Frank Field and would be happy to campaign for them. But not as Labour MPs, presumably you would?

[Richard Tyndall]

The short answer is yes.

My personal opinion is that the parties and the whips system in particular are a corruption of the whole principle of Parliamentary democracy. As such I do not consider such labels to be anywhere near as important as the underlying beliefs and records of the individual MPs.

You must have been very lucky in the elected officials you have met. Almost every one I have ever had contact with has had the good of their party and their own position of power as their first duty with the electorate quite a long way behind.

[Richard Tyndall]

And of course I should point out that in the case of the MPs I mentioned the two who sit on the Labour benches are doing far more to protect the rights and liberties of our country and the electorate than the two who sit on the Tory benches.

[Martin Bristow]

What does social responsibilty mean in policy terms? is it really just a sound bite? Are we going to reduce tax,punish criminals,return to selection in education,curb immigration properly , bring power back from Brussels-WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

[Traditional Tory]

Whether one likes it or not Brown's appoach to the terrorist threat has been most impressive and reassuring. Watching him on TV this morning I was immediately reminded of the pitiful and triumphalist belittlement of the Prime Minister which once appeared endlessly on CH, courtesy of the usual suspects.

The problem is that Brown is a serious politician and he is very much in charge of the situation. Suddenly the Cameron boys look very insubstantial, as many of us always said they would when the chips were down.

Apparently Osborne was on TV this morning but I doubt that anybody was listening. The man is beyond parody.

Yes, we do need to emulate New Labour. We need to emulate them by choosing battle-hardened veterans who have lived lives in the real world. Men like David Davis, Patrick Mercer and I'm sure you can think of plenty more.

The schoolboys are going down. It's up to the party to decide whether they go down before or at the next general election.

'Loyalty'? Don't talk to me about that. They have shown none to us.

[Simon Denis]

Your point hits the mark, Traditional Tory. They have treated us with contempt. They and others like them have called us "nasty"; they have referred to us as "delusional"; they have failed to recruit many slippery centrists but in the effort to do so have cast off too many of the most dedicated conservatives. It is true that many on these threads sound vituperative and extreme; it is true that adjustments to current social reality were probably wise, but this lot are going far too far - risking everything in fact. They must pause, think and recast their whole approach.