Spinning by "senior Tories" forced Graham Brady's resignation

These were yesterday's headlines:

FACING THE SACK, THE SENIOR TORY WHO SPOKE UP FOR GRAMMARS - Daily Mail
TORY GRAMMAR SCHOOL REBEL FACES SACK - Daily Telegraph
CAMERON READY TO SACK TORY REBEL OVER GRAMMAR SCHOOLS - Guardian

And who gave those three newspapers that impression?

"SENIOR SOURCES" - Mail
"CONSERVATIVE SOURCES" - Telegraph
"SENIOR TORIES" - Guardian

Graham Brady took his reprimand on Monday but resigned after such a trashing in yesterday's press.  Sam Coates (of The Times) raised the issue of these briefings at today's George Osborne speech.  One of the lessons of grammarsgate is that we should not be spinning against our own side in the way that Labour have done.  I hope David Cameron has severely reprimanded the person or persons responsible for the anti-Brady briefings.  Such a thing must not happen again.

Comments

[Jennifer Wells]

Disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful.

[Bill]

Double standards.

[Sack the Spinners]

In addition to claiming Blair's dubious inheritance, CCHQ is now copying the dirty tricks of Alastair Campbell. Those Tory spinners and "sources" should be sacked.

[Henry Mayhew]

Is there a well of currently un-appointed Etonian backbenchers available to DC as "battlefield casualty replacements"? Does anyone have the statistics on this?

[TomTOm]

Shades of Westland 1986

[Bill]

Has Mr Brady a replacement? If not, will he or she be from a state (grammar or comp) or private (Eton or any other public/private school) background? Will his replacement (assuming he/she has any) educate their child(ren) publicly or privately?

[fed up]

There was no spinning. An official spokeswoman briefed the press.

[Chris]

Bill,
Mark Francois is the new Shadow Europe Minister. He went to a comprehensive school in Essex. He is married with no children and serves in the TA.

[Andrew]

Somewhat different response on CH to this compared to Liam Fox's anti-Cameron briefings....

[Bill]

Thank you Chris. He sounds like a good man.

If we get a few more resignations we may be able to get a front bench more reflective of the modern Britain Cameron proclaims he is so happy with. Eton, Oxford and the Bullingdon's loss would be the country's gain.

[Chris]

Bill,
David Gauke has replaced Mark Francois on the treasury team. He was educated at a comprehensive in Suffolk. He has 2 children (1 born in 2002, and the other in 2004). I can't find any info on how he plans to have them educated.

[HF]

Was this the same "PR experts" that allowed the hug a hoodie label to fester?

[Jack Stone]

God that would be terrible Conservative central office learning lessons from Alister Campbell. They might actually learn something about winning elections!

[Johnny Smythe]

I'm afraid there will be a lot more of this sort of stuff in the future. Until DC gets himself a really professional Press man the Party is going to endure much more of this sort of amateurish back-room briefing back-firing in its face. Remember, the NHS people do not have a good track record at this sort of stuff - think back to Rachel Whetstone and her 'bed-blockers' story.

The polls are already showing that people are confused as to what the Party stands for. The blame for this mixed-messaging lies within DC's office. Time somebody got a grip!

Professionalism is much needed and I'm afraid DC's crrent press man George Useless is not exactly a good example, nobody respects him and as such there is no real leadership in the Press Dept. Both George Bridges and Steve Hilton are control freaks and could easily be guilty of briefing against Brady - after all he went 'off message'. They may well see themselves as ruthless but the rest of us certainly do not see them as professional.

Well, I've had my rant, I'm off home.

[Bill]

An amusingly ironic aspect of the Cameroons and their incompetent over-identification with PR is that whilst formerly old/New Labour went to immense lengths to rubbish the Tories, today Labour can sit back and watch the Tories do a superb job of it on themselves.

[ANON]

You may want to check Iain Dale's diary which runs a story that will ensure the Grammar School story doesn't go away.

How many days did Ally Campbell say a story would last before it became a crisis?

[Henry Mayhew]

Francois is a good man and gives a "severe reprimand" that you don't forget in a hurry. I should know - he was my Platoon Sergeant in the TA. He is hardcore.

It will be interesting to see how he handles the Europe brief since Dave's plan is probably to keep everything quiet. A poisoned chalice as regulations and anti-competitiveness increase. China is coming, slowly and very surely. We cannot continue to discriminate against our own industries, which will mean change in Europe. A very, very difficult brief, if he wants to make his mark.

[HF]

Re ANON "How many days did Ally Campbell say a story would last before it became a crisis?"

Two Sundays. We are coming up to our 3rd.

That is why either Willetts or the PR has to be fired.

Interesting that Brady would not have resigned if the PR folk had not briefed against him and that today Osbourne stirs it up. They obviously have not got the slightest idea of how to kill a row.

Utterly clueless.

[Agent Provocateur]

Well, given that Cameron, Osborne et al have declared themselves "The Heirs of Blair", briefing against their own side is not surprising.

Interesting quote on p29 of today's Times: 'She went instead to Wardley Grammar School ... [she Said] : "My brother did not. He failed the 11-bus. He drives a bus -I AM IN THE CABINET." (emphasis added).

Hazel Blears' anecdote is just one piece of many pieces of evidence that sinks Cameron et al's Anti Grammar School Argument.

It is despicable that "senior sources" (no doubt private school educated) have turned on one of the few Grammar School Boys in the Shadow Cabinet.

As someone from a working-class family who would not have been able to go to university had it not been for the local grammar school, I for one am particularly appalled.

Back off, Cameron, or I and thousands like me will not deliver another one of your leaflets!

Reinstate Brady, sack Willetts.

[Agent Provocateur]

Well, given that Cameron, Osborne et al have declared themselves "The Heirs of Blair", briefing against their own side is not surprising.

Interesting quote on p29 of today's Times: 'She went instead to Wardley Grammar School ... [she Said] : "My brother did not. He failed the 11-bus. He drives a bus -I AM IN THE CABINET." (emphasis added).

Hazel Blears' anecdote is just one piece of many pieces of evidence that sinks Cameron et al's Anti Grammar School Argument.

It is despicable that "senior sources" (no doubt private school educated) have turned on one of the few Grammar School Boys in the Shadow Cabinet.

As someone from a working-class family who would not have been able to go to university had it not been for the local grammar school, I for one am particularly appalled.

Back off, Cameron, or I and thousands like me will not deliver another one of your leaflets!

Reinstate Brady, sack Willetts.

[Matt Wright]

I don't think anyone on here can pretend we know all the background to this but I would say that Willetts has been approachable and engaged with the debate on this site in an intelligent way.

Matt

[John]

Check out the newsnow politics feed or Iain Dale's blog - now George Osborne has waded in saying that the Conservatives would block any New Grammars.

This is going all the way to the GE. I guess Tory T must be interpreting that polls for Cameron.

Anyone know a decent united right-wing party?

[Andrew Woodman]

Must say I don't like the way this is being handled at all. The Mountain out of a Molehill is becoming a mountain range. Wonder if this is due to Steve Hilton being in Botswana.

Only plus point is David Gauke being promoted to the Treasury team. Heard more from him on Treasury matter than Osbourne who seems more interested in Education and winding the membership up.

[Ted]

Reporter - so why hasn't Cameron sacked him?
Spokesperson - "why bother to add more publicity, he'll be dropped in the next reshuffle"

No spin. Spin is what you do to a story to change the direction towards somethng advantageous to yourselves. Stating a self evident fact isn't spin. It was evident to me immediately I'd read he had gone to the press and then been called up by the Chief Whip that he had no immediate front bench career. Why should he have thought any different (those shadowy "senior" protectors referred to a couple of days ago?).

[Joseph]

HF
A very interesting post from you and I am sure a lot of the "Old Tories" would heartily agree with you.
Long before I ever dared to post to a political blog, (as I took up computing very late in life), I used to read this blog and one blogger in particular always amused me, this person was an elderly lady and she possessed the most political insight into any leader I can ever remember. She was a true blue, dyed in the wool Tory from the "Old School" and she did talk a lot of political sense.
She once stated that she was at a dinner party the W/End before and the last time all the same guests had got together she was the only one out of twelve people who did not vote for Cameron as leader as she well predicted it would all end in tears. She said that by the next meeting there was ten of them who agreed with her and only one did not. Her knowledge of the EU and all things European was quite amazing.
As I remember it the Lady's name was Christina, I think her relations held quite high office at one time. I would have liked to have heard her views on the Graham Brady Saga. I am positive she would have admired this young man.
Whatever happened to her does she still post?

[Curly]

As I posted in my blog today, I am at all impressed by the current leadership's inability to handle on open and honest debate.
Whilst David Cameron can carry on calling supporters of grammar schools “inverse class warriors” and “deluded”, they are not allowed the freedom to put their side of the argument, sounds more like Nu-Labour every day!

[Og]

Are you SURE Hazels's brother "failed the 11-bus"? Surely he failed the 11-Plus, or missed the bus.

[Curly]

As I posted in my blog today, I am not at all impressed by the current leadership's inability to handle an open and honest debate.
Whilst David Cameron can carry on calling supporters of grammar schools “inverse class warriors” and “deluded”, they are not allowed the freedom to put their side of the argument, sounds more like Nu-Labour every day!

[Traditional Tory]

I would say that Willetts has been approachable and engaged with the debate on this site in an intelligent way.

Really? I don't think many would agree with you, though.

I was told a couple of days ago that senior members of his constituency Conservative Club give it months rather than years before it folds up. It used to have thousands of members, and a long waiting list.

This, you may remember, was the Tory club that was briefly hi-jacked by a bunch of trannies. Modernisers will be pleased to learn that they were given their marching orders not on account of their 'orientation' but because they failed to pay their bills.

There would appear to be something of a downturn in Tory fortunes in Mr Willetts' part of the world...

[Editor]

Yes we know there's something inconsistent about keeping existing grammars (AND allowing them to grow) and not allowing new schools but Iain's story - prompted by PA - isn't exactly new. George Osborne is only restating what we've known for at least two weeks now.

[Traditional Tory]

As I remember it the Lady's name was Christina

I think you are talking about Christina Speight, long-term party activist and founder member of the Bow Group.

She used to post some very trenchant views about Cameron on CH.

[Michael Rutherford]

I think the person using the Hazel Blears argument as a way of saying grammar schools are great is on another planet.

It was decided at the age of 11 that Hazel was to be a success and her brother was to be a failure. That is exactly the problem with grammar schools. It brands someone a success or failure at the age of 11 and that's it. Tough if you're in a secondary modern.

Why this mad reaction to our grammar schools policy? We scrapped them 40 years ago for god's sake. There is some serious bandwaggon jumping and people wanting to get wound up here.

People will try to spin anything from Cameron as "left wing" or "labourite" just because they want IDS or Howard back.

We're in the 21st century now, there has never been the mythical time when the Conservatives were good and right wing, with privatisation and grammar schools everywhere. IDS and Howard were our most right wing ever leaders probably and they failed miserably. Cameron is doing a fine job.

Ask yourselves these two questions: would you want your child in a secondary modern; is the year 1950?

[Agent Provocateur]

Og - yes, I mean 11-plus :-)

MR - That's a stupid reply. The point is that Hazel Blears was successful *because* she went to a grammar school, i.e. from working-class lass to solicitor (and her brother did not). If I'm on another planet, can you please suggest another way of getting working-class kids to university? The current comprehensive system isn't working.

The point about selection (whether grammar 'schools' or 'streams') is that the bright kids (e.g. Hazel) get a chance that the dull kids (e.g. her bus driver brother) don't merit. It's meritocracy.

And it's not the 1950s - there are still 164 (I think that's the figure) grammar schools in existence.

BTW, is it now the case that the Labour party has Grammar-School educated Cabinet member and the Conservative Party doesn't have anyone educated at a grammar school in the shadow cabinet? Sad reflection on the Conservative Party, if you ask me.

[Henry Mayhew]

Michael,

Ask yourself one question. Would you want your child in a comprehensive?

[Oberon Houston]

I don't think there was anything wrong with Brady resigning on a matter of principle, in fat there is everything right with it. The problem was that he should have done it before he started writing articles against party policy, and passing data to national newspapers in an attempt to undermine the position of the leadership. This was his doing.

To allow him to stay, in the context, i.e. given the difficult decisions going forward was to invite chaos. For newspapers to run this story with vague references to Senior Tories (i.e. anyone) is a usual ploy. Not spin, stories.

Editor, it is well known that there would be trouble because of Grahams choice of actions. This was his decision and the mess was his making. I think conHome are the men stoking the fires by 'spinning' this into a 'spin' story (I'm dizzy now). spin spin spin.

[Agent Provocateur]

Oberon - You're wrong. Graham Brady has shown himself to be a man of principle, which is sadly not the case with the 'leadership' (mostly public school boys, of course).

[Michael Rutherford]

I went to a comprehensive and yes, I would send a child there.

We need social mobility, that's a given. But grammar schools just don't do it adequately. There is no problem with suburban or rural schools, regardless of what people say. It is inner city areas that are the problem.

Grammar schools nationally would lead to people being able to pay to get in by getting additional tuition, that is not a fair or socially mobile system.

I think support for city academies is fine: get private finance and new initiatives into inner city areas to try and reform the last remaining problematic schools.

I think setting and streaming can do a better job of improving social mobility. People will be setted on a subject by subject basis so that everyone has the chance to succeed in whichever subject they're good at. It doesn't just brand someone good or bad, it's fluid, so forces ability all the way through school, not through one exam.

[Traditional Tory]

People will try to spin anything from Cameron as "left wing" or "labourite" just because they want IDS or Howard back.

If you believe that you are seriously out of touch.

Most Tory patriots posting here probably want Davis or Hague to take over, although as time goes by new people will emerge.

Eventually Graham Brady could be a prime contender.

[Denis Cooper]

"The point about selection (whether grammar 'schools' or 'streams') is that the bright kids (e.g. Hazel) get a chance that the dull kids (e.g. her bus driver brother) don't merit. It's meritocracy."

But the less bright children should get another kind of chance, which better suits their abilities and aptitudes, with the possibility of switching later if they stood out as being misplaced. "Not the grammar school" should not be a dustbin.

[Oberon Houston]

Agent Provocateur: If I disagreed with what my boss was doing in a completely different department, then started publishing pieces in trade mags slagging him off, and then began quietly passing data to a competitor to try and undermine him, I would be finished. Why did he do it like this? No idea, the whole episode is strange.

[Richard Allen]

Joseph. You probably refer to Christina Speight. Those of us with the 'honour' of being on her mailing list receive upto 4 e-mails a day outling her views on politics.

[Oberon Houston]

ps, Agent Provocateur, I liked your autumn catalogue, nice collection!

[Richard Allen]

Or should I say, outlining her views on politics

[Oberon Houston]

Richard, Lingerie, now 'outing' ... Well it is Big Brother opening night tnight. Wooar

[Traditional Tory]

Agent Provocateur: If I disagreed with what my boss was doing

And isn't it high time that we the people became 'bosses' of the Conservative Party?

Possibly an advance in Tory Democracy may eventually be the one good thing to emerge from the Cameron fiasco...

[Oberon Houston]

Awww! TT, I was enjoying myself there. Spoil Sport.

[Bill]

What an understatement! The Editor says "there's something inconsistent about keeping existing grammars (AND allowing them to grow) and not allowing new schools..".

It is not just inconsistent. It is downright illogical and hypocritical. It completely undermines existing grammar schools. The Tories have lit the blue touch paper for Labour to get rid of them. At the same time Tory MPs appear to have no problem with the continued existence and use by themselves of private schools which probably entrench social advantage more than anything save an offshore trust fund. And to add insult to injury they seem blind to or simply insouciant to all this.

[Oberon Houston]

Fun over. Back to work everyone, there is nothing to see here.

[Denis Cooper]

"... people being able to pay to get in by getting additional tuition".

Never happened in my day: I don't recall the teachers making any fuss about the 11-plus, there was certainly no particular preparation for it at school, and I never heard of people getting tuition out of school to help them pass until recent years.

There's obviously something wrong when there are websites like this:

http://www.11plusswot.co.uk/

because while it should be possible to swot up for a test of factual information, and it should be possible to practice for a test of techniques, eg for arithmetic,
it should not be possible to practice getting a high score in a test of underlying general intelligence or cognitive ability - how "bright" the child is.

But there's no need to stick with the same 11-plus test for selection. If the test has outlived its usefulness - if some parents have now learned how to play that part of the system - then new and better tests could be devised and employed.

[Bradford]

It is inner city areas that are the problem.

Grammar schools nationally would lead to people being able to pay to get in by getting additional tuition, that is not a fair or socially mobile system.

That is very funny. London has the highest proprtion of children educated in fee-paying schools c. 10%.

Of course people like Tony Blair sent their children to a State School and saved fees - The London Oratory School - Catholicism helps (John Cruddas discovered devout Catholic faith when an exclusive State Catholic School seemed ideal for his child).

Blair did however hire private tuition from Westminster School to prepare his children. Diane abbot had to get a second job on TV to raise the money for private school fees so her son could get the education she received free at Harrow County Grammar School.

So how do so many people in London decide to pay fees ? How many bankers put their children into schools like Eton, Harrow, Marlborough, Roedean, CLC, St Paul's, Winchester, Westminster, Highgate, Oundle, Wellington College ?

There is clearly something inspiring people to pay fees of £26.000/year out of post-tax income.

This inner city has some of the worst schools nationally - right down at the bottom on every measure - it abolished its grammar schools 40 years ago and now has an exclusion every 90 minutes, 200 assaults on teachers, and a huge absenteeism problem....and problems of rocks thrown at school buses and general violence.

http://www.bradfordschools.net/content/view/619/589/

League Table

Bradford Cathedral Community College
Lister Avenue, Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD4 7QT
Tel: 01274 773320
TYPE: Voluntary aided, comprehensive, boys and girls
AGES: 11-18
ABSENCE:
8% authorised (5.9% locally, 6.7% nationally)
7.3% unauthorised (2.8% locally, 1.3% nationally)

This one at the bottom is to become an Academy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6250433.stm

Bradford you will note is below Southwark, Haringey, and Tower Hamlets

For the past 5 years the Con-Lib Council has been forced by the Government to put a private company Serco in charge of Education Bradford - things simply got worse and now the Council wants to revoke the contract.

This is the 5th or 6th largest metropolitan borough in England - The Observer thinks it has 33% schoolchildren "Asian"........now how will Willetts sort out this particular mess without ability-based selection ?

BTW..the Catholic Church wants to combine 3 Secondary Schools (incl one girls-only school used by Muslims) into a one-campus 2000 pupil comprehensive against the wishes of the parents.

[TomTom]

Never happened in my day: I don't recall the teachers making any fuss about the 11-plus,

You know why ?

Because the teaching throughout Primary School was geared towards the 11+ - now it is only for the few and they need tuition because primary school does not teach the children verbal reasoning, mental arithmetic, or structured learning.

The 11+ set the primary school curriculum just as today the curriculum makes it impossible for these children to compete with pupils in fee-paying schools

[Frank McGarry]

DC and our Shadow Cabinet spend more time opposing Conservatives than opposing the government. This may be a cunning to plan to get elected with non-conservative votes but it doesn't seem to be working too well.

If Cameron were as principled as Brady he might command more respect.

[wakeHantsup]

Traditional Tory is right, David Willetts Havant organisation has seen a plummeting in its membership from 839 in 2005 to 699 in 2006. Bad for an area with an MP.

[Peter Michael]

Dennis - "..never happened in my day etc"
I don't know when your day was but I passed the 11 plus in 1959 having been prepared for it for over a year at a village primary school in Gloucestershire as part of the general curriculum. (In fact the school entered me for the exam a year earlier but I failed it the first time!). It certainly IS possible to practice for intelligence tests, we had books entitled "Can You Think?" and "What Do You Think?" which I'm pretty sure were provided 'free at the point of delivery'

[sped]

Another Eustice cock up! Get some professionals in!

[Jaz]

What a pointless story, I'm beginning to believe that ConHome is following its own agenda. The Grammer school fiasco is over, it was over last week. It's been over for manay years.

Why must I come here to read such rubbish which then results in... the same repetitive comments?

[Richard Carey]

Agreed, Jaz - we're all getting bored with this story, let's close it down. This isn't about education policy, this is about party discipline.

I hope David Cameron has severely reprimanded the person or persons responsible for the anti-Brady briefings. Such a thing must not happen again.

Brady's gone - job done (and should have been story over). The use of unattributable briefings might have been allegedly brutal, but at the end of the day, politics at front-bench level is a contact sport. Wringing of hands over this does us no good - if you're in the game, then you have to be up to this sort of thing. You think that isn't on? Wait to see what Labour throw at us!

Assuming Brady is any kind of politician, he would have expected this anyway - you shouldn't hold front-bench responsibility if you consistently express the wish to breach collective discipline after two dressing-downs from the whips' office.

[Schlieffen Plan]

Apologies to those who have heard this before. Sped et al are right to criticise the current CCHQ media setup.

While our main opponents employ seasoned media professionals in their press offices (former regional newspaper/local radio/24 hour TV news hacks) ours is staffed by recent graduates from PR company training schemes/Tory councils or Brussels hand-me-downs.

Our head of media has never worked in the media (ex-strawberry farmer) and our head of broadcast (ex-banker) has never been a broadcaster. To my knowledge only two senior CCHQ press office personnel have been jobbing journalists (Daily Mail & Sunday Express) whilst those that did were dispatched shortly after the last general election.

Put simply, a political party that wishes to be taken seriously by the press/TV/radio etc must employ people with the relevent experience or risk immolation in the media firestorm of the kind we have just witnessed.

[TomTOm]

Agreed, Jaz - we're all getting bored with this story, let's close it down.

Well you two will have to sit it out while others discuss what pleases them, and since this issue is the one reason many people bring themselves to vote Conservative, it must be important.

Having lost 6 million voters since 1992 a party cannot afford to lose many more and stay in business.

[Adam Tugwell]

So then, does anybody know if Monopolies & Mergers have been invited to the party yet?

Instead of blue going green, it sounds like blue going red: HANG ON - doesn't that make purple!!!

[Paul Kennedy]

18:26

"Ask yourself one question. Would you want your child in a comprehensive?"

Depends where you live I guess.

5 years ago I was concerned given what I had heard, now 5 years later with my son preparing to sit his GCSE's.....with an A Grade AS level in maths already under his belt, it seems I need not have been concerned.

[Paul Kennedy]

18:26

"Ask yourself one question. Would you want your child in a comprehensive?"

Depends where you live I guess.

5 years ago I was concerned given what I had heard, now 5 years later with my son preparing to sit his GCSE's.....and an A Grade AS level in maths already under his belt, it seems I need not have been concerned.

[Jarod Weaver]

To be honest, I don't give a monkey's. I gave up on the Tories the minute this PR spiv became leader. The man hasn't a principle in his DNA. Anyone who has the slightest interest in politics, left or right should feel very depressed tonight. We live in a country bereft of ideology, dominated by sales patter. The fact that this prat calls himself the continuation of Blairism, sums up how bad it has become. David Cameron is an upstart toff who has no idea how the ordinary people of this country live their lives. "Webcameron"! Say no more. I'm not angry tonight, I feel very depressed. It's a sad era in British politics.

[Henry Mayhew]

Wonderful. But wouldn't it have been nice if you had had a sense of control over and ownership of the school. This would be achieved by vouchers and choice and is in line with the localisation strategy.

You should not have had to feel trepidation about what the system was going to do to your child. Glad it's working out.

[Cynical Voter]

"Ask yourself one question. Would you want your child in a comprehensive?"

Letwin

"Miraculously the middle-class parents with the money end up getting their children into good schools.

"In Lambeth, where I live, I would give my right arm to send them to a fee-paying school.

"If necessary I would go out on the streets and beg rather than send them to the school next to where I live.

[Richard Carey]

Well you two will have to sit it out while others discuss what pleases them, and since this issue is the one reason many people bring themselves to vote Conservative, it must be important.

Perhaps we should find them another reason? Or at least find more people more then just the one?

[richard]

In his chapter 'Of Thought and Discussion' in 'On Liberty', John Stuart Mill wrote:

'However unwillingly a person who has a strong opinion may admit the possibility that his opinion may be false, he ought to be moved by the consideration that, however true it may be, if it is not fully, frequently and fearlessly discussed, it will be held as a dead dogma, not a living truth.'

That consideration is the reason why Dave's lot are wrong to impose blanket uniformity and to quash debate.

[Oberon Houston]

1. David Cameron was voted leader by the party members, if I recall the share was what politicians dream off, 67%?
2. I interract with party members from all 'sides' of the party every day, and there is a general feeling that things need to be worked, but the outlook is generally good. So far with me?
3. I come to this site & the CH is infested with Trolls, bitter UKIP bloggers, God knows who else: and we can hardly get a thread going before it is drowned in the mud of hate and bitterness.

I preferred this site when it was less well known, where have the 'others' gone?

[malcolm]

Yup Oberon, a lot of utterly crap posts today but not I think all from the UKIP bloggers that you mention.Our party have contains some deeply unpleasant and foolish people who seem to think that everyday they must post make some clever remarks designed to do the party down. Many from the likes of Traditional Tory or Stephen Tolkinghome etc are just pathetic.
And yet,and yet I can't help feeling that Bradys resignation, Osbornes speech today, the anonymous briefing in the press are angering more than the pathetic fringe I've mentioned above. The Leadership need to try hard to sell their ideas to core Conservatives. Expecting blind loyalty on every issue every is foolish.

[fantasy island dweller]

After the next General Election would you rather have 5 more years of Brown as PM or Cameron?

I don't think the country could afford 5 more years of Brown.

[Andrew Lilico]

Oberon and malcolm,

It seems to me that this grammar schools discussion has gone on far too long to be debated in any interesting way on this sort of forum. Online debates only work properly when there are proper topics about which one can offer a reasoned view and then have that view challenged by facts or alternative analysis. But on grammar schools everything interesting was said within the first 48 hours, and since then we've had ten-odd days of vituperation. This format can't bear it, and those of us that are interesting to listen to have largely given up contributing - except when we start to panic that the ridiculous things said by either side had become so out of hand or so distorted Conservative thought or the Party zeitgeist that we felt compelled.

I think that it's really become so bad now that if sustained it might even lead to a significant drop-off in use of the web-site later. The ranters won't stay here for long without anything intelligent to rant about, and the intelligent commenters may take a month or two off visiting the site until they feel confident that it is going to offer the opportunity to discuss, intelligently, interestingly, and even occasionally rationally, some political topic other than (YAWN!!!!) grammar schools.

[marginal voter]

Sort this out - you are like rats in a sack.

You can't form an opposition, let alone a government.

You are a long way off being Labour in 1992 let alone 1997. I will feel sick doing it, but I will have to vote for Brown unless you convince me otherwise - it's not about policy, it's about who can actually govern.

[Matt Wright]

Andrew, you are right. One of the fundamental problems with these sorts of sites is that people determined to continually be negative or personal drive away sensible debaters (from whatever side of an argument) while those that stay end up retaliating which makes it worse. I'm sorry but I'm not sure "blogs" are the future they are cracked up to be,

Matt

[Goldie]

I'm really surprised at the completely inept way the cameron boys are handling their PR.

One would have thought they would be at least go at *that*....

[Torygirl]

Joseph | May 30, 2007 at 17:49

Christina got banned from this blog because she didn't mince her words and say nice things about our Leader.

She is still going strong and believes Brady to be a man of principle.

[Bruce Mackie]

Sorry folks,this story won't go away as easily as those advisors in CCHQ might think. It epitomises that sort of leadership we now have in this once great Party.The spin that is put on so called policies leaves me in a political wilderness. Even Blair and his cronies could not have done any better. Let us acknowledge that they have called it wrong and that they make a serious attempt to withdraw gracefully. There is still a long time to go before an election so let us learn from this gaffe and embrace the views of the rank & file of the Party, At the same time we should also as the members of the Party,accept that times have changed and we must move on. It must be done in such a way as to take the membership along with you on this new crusade. The real aim of all of us, should be the return of a balanced Concervative Government and we should all get together behind this goal!

[Traditional Tory]

CH is infested with Trolls, bitter UKIP bloggers

That's right Oberon, when the match is going badly, play the men not the ball.

I'm willing to bet many of these 'UKIP Trolls' have worked for the party far longer (37 years in my case) than you have, but please don't let a small detail like that that put you off.

If you don't care for democratic debate why not create a new blog called 'For Cameroons Only', 'Dave's Fanzine' or something of the sort? You can control membership and comments and make sure that the prevailing atmosphere is one of happy Cameroon Gleichschaltung

I'm sure that within a very short period you will be getting ten times as many hits as CH and be quoted in all the dailies...

...NOT!

[TomTOm]

But on grammar schools everything interesting was said within the first 48 hours

Really ? You do have a limited grasp of the issues.....superficial even. This country has been denied proper discussion of a great many issues as politicians have blundered from one catastrophe to another.

[TomTOm]

Dr Lilico, where do you educate your children ?

Would you advocate the system described below in finding the right educational pathway for them ?

scholarships would mean greater access to higher education for gifted working-class pupils.

Young people would be graded on their intellectual ability through exams taken at A-level time. ........

"The system needs a rebalancing of funding. This gives the most gifted an opportunity to study in more comfort than at present.

"It gives a strong signal about the quality of the people who show ability.

This, he added, would help to create an "elite" based on merit alone, rather than background. Such a group would not suffer financial worries while studying.

BBC

[Andrew Lilico]

TomTOm@08:27

Yes, strange as it might seem I would. Since it was discussed in all the quality media as about story number three for twenty-four hours, it's hardly a secret!

Why - do you support my position?

[ToMTom]

Why - do you support my position?

Which one ? Educating your children at fee-paying schools ? Of course.

[Denis Cooper]

TomTom @ 19:08 and Peter Michael @ 19:57 - thanks for those insights.

Maybe I was too dim to understand that we were all being quietly prepared for the 11-plus, which also took place fairly quietly - I have only a vague memory of going off to the canteen to do some tests (we were too close together in the classroom, I expect). Nothing compared to my memories of O and A levels.

Of course if you have a primary school with pupils drawn from across the social classes, and they are all given the same level of 11-plus preparation in school, then working class children will get a fairer crack of the whip than if the parents are providing the only preparation, or additional preparation, out of school.

My parents raised five children on my father's semi-skilled wages, and four of us got into grammar school, so at least from the point of view of one working class family the system did work well at that time.

[Andrew Lilico]

ToMTom@08:59>Educating your children at fee-paying schools ?

I'm not with you. Are you asking whether I favour people being permitted to educate their children at fee-paying schools? Of course! Are you in favour of banning private education, then?

Or was your question about my pamphlet on higher education? But that wasn't about schools, it was about higher education. So I don't think that's what you are saying.

Or are you implying that I have children and that I send them all to fee-paying schools? What makes you think I have children? (And how would it be relevant where I send them to school if I did?)

So...I'm a bit lost as to your point.

Also...are you under the impression that I'm opposed to grammar schools in some way? Or that I'm in favour of them? I wasn't aware that I'd made any comment on *that* point...

[Geoffrey G Brooking]

As I said yesterday Graham Brady knew that writing the article he did was more or less signing his own death warrant as a member of the shadow cabinet so surely such headlines in the media would be expected.

The fact that he has gone before being pushed though at least means that he can go with dignity and respect.

David Cameron and David Willetts are absolutely right though in that we should allow people to choose rather than the other way around.

Times are changing and so should the Conservative Party.

[TomTom]

Geoffrey you did not get elected in Lincoln did you ? The Liberal Democats and Labour both beat you ?

Did you think it might have been cleverer to copy their programme and advocate Liberal Democrat and Labour policies so voters could see what a delightful chap you were and elect you to implement the policies that appealed to them ?

Was this a major error on your part ?

[Denis Cooper]

I'm still waiting to hear how parents can ever have a completely free choice of school for their children, when the total number of state-funded school places
is decided by the government, and every government of both parties has always been determined that there should be no significant surplus of places overall - ie primarily no significant surplus of teachers to be paid every month.

At present many of those places are in schools which no parent would want his child to attend, if they could possibly avoid it, but even if that problem was solved it would still be the case that to create the kind of "buyers' market" that Osborne is imagining on our behalf there would have to be a degree of spare capacity, with a significant surplus of supply over demand.

I wonder how Osborne would feel about that if he became Chancellor, and found he was paying for say 20% more teachers than would be needed if the pupils were better distributed among the schools, and on top of that he was also being asked to pay for new buildings to expand one school, favoured by parents, while another less favoured school had perfectly usable but under-used buildings.

[TomTom]

I understand Dennis that there are 700.000 unused school places nationally at a time when we supposedly have restricted choice

[Joseph]

Torygirl | May 31, 2007 at 00:33

Re Christina:

I did not always agree with her politics but boy did I admire her principles. Pity the Tories have dropped so many, now I feel this Country has gone too far to the left. The balance needs addressing and some good old fashioned Right Wing thinking is now required especially around Law and Order, Terrorism, the Justice System and Immigration (not to mention Europe where I heartily agreed with the Lady).
Cameron I feel does not agree just think of the EPP saga, (still that ploy got him elected leader and the Tory faithful fell hook line and sinker for it). As for his buddy in charge of that he is more interested in his bank balance, it would hurt his pocket in the unlikely event of a Cameron led government.

[Denis Cooper]

On a quick sum 700,000 unused school places would be something like 8% of the total, TomTom, and clearly a much higher level of surplus capacity than that would be needed to ensure that all parents got their children into their preferred state school. I hope Mr Osborne will cost that before it becomes a firm promise.

[Geoffrey G Brooking]

Re: Geoffrey you did not get elected in Lincoln did you ? The Liberal Democats and Labour both beat you ?

Did you think it might have been cleverer to copy their programme and advocate Liberal Democrat and Labour policies so voters could see what a delightful chap you were and elect you to implement the policies that appealed to them ?

Was this a major error on your part ?

Posted by: TomTom | May 31, 2007 at 10:50

No I did not get elected but I did what I thought was right.

Unlike the Liberals who put out a leaflet that was a virtual copy of the local residents association newsletter I made sure that I sang from the same sheet as the rest of the Conservative Party as a matter of loyalty and in the long-run I think people will respect me for that.