David Davis highlights Labour's ineffective authoritarianism

On the day that it is revealed that John Reid and Tony Blair plan to introduce new stop-and-question powers for the police the Shadow Home Secretary (writing for The Independent on Sunday) documents the extent to which Labour has taken liberties without improving security:

1. Groups such as Hizb ut-Tahrir and the Tamil Tigers are unbanned, he writes, but there is a ban on demonstrations within a kilometre of Parliament;
2. The DNA database records information on 100,000 innocent children but fails to record many serious criminals;
3. "Experts say that ID cards will cluster our personal information in one place, making it a prime target for criminals and terrorists";
4. The anti-terrorist forces have been under-resourced and in their place we get unwarranted proposals such as ninety days without trial that would drive "disaffected young Muslims into the arms of extremists".

The film Taking Liberties - referred to by Mr Davis - is released nationwide on 8th June.

David Cameron was asked earlier this week why he still had not appointed a replacement for sacked homeland security spokesman Patrick Mercer.  He replied that he was waiting to see how the Government's own new arrangements for home and security affairs bed down.  There is some speculation that Mr Mercer might return to his old position in the summer reshuffle.  Another name in the frame is Baron Trimble because of his Northern Ireland experiences.

Related link: The civil libertarian Tories

Comments

[ACT]

Trimble's Northern Ireland experience chiefly consists of his titanic struggle to put terrorists (Sinn Fein) into office. Thanks, but no thanks, to him having a chance to repeat that act in the rest of the country.

[TomTOm]

THe Government has so many backchannels to "terrorists" that it cannot crackdown on their visible presence. When they try to cut deals with Abu Qatada, or sponsor Islamic conferences and fly the Muslim Brotherhood to Turkey to attend; or have all sorts of ongoing "discussionS" with Iran, or groups in Gaza, and Iraq....it is highly unlikely they are going to antagonise them.

Instead it is part of a concerted campaign - in the US, Germany, Britain - no doubt coordinated at EU Council of Ministers level, to control the domestic population and let them know they are being watched.

www.statewatch.org

When people find that speaking out of turn or associating with the wrong group gets them logged on the Database, their children find university entrance blocked, and they find it hard to get a passport, a bank account, or a telephone....they will know that the electronic government project has them recorded.

The strong desire of the bureaucracy to control the populace has been given free reign since idiots like Bin Laden lit the blue touchpaper.....and now there is a concerted effort to take control from the top and bring about passive obeisance to the administrative machine.

[601 in neo-con land]

Trimble for international development

Micheal Gove for Homeland Security

and keep Liam Fox where he is.

[Denis Cooper]

There is a real risk that these measures would further alienate the police from the law-abiding public. In the British (or at least the English) tradition constables were appointed by the people to carry out on a full-time and therefore paid basis tasks which were in any case the duty of every citizen/subject, rather than being agents of the state to be used against the people as in many continental countries.

[Richard]

I know it sounds horribly reactionary but is there any chance the police might be requested to get back into their tunics when on the beat? The current uniform makes me feel like I'm in an occupied country!

[simon]

Labour's 'authoritarianism' stems from policy failures of the past years of Labour rule. The human rights law, uncontrolled immigration and iraq. Unprepared to take the real action necessary the lurch to authoritarianism is an easy opt-out. The Bliar's Labour governments may have had sizeable majorities, but they have been the worst governments of the modern age. An incoming conservative government may have a 'mountain to climb' to actually get into power, but once there it has another 'mountain to climb' to tackle the mess left by Labour!

[gingeral]

Yay for Trimble, we need a few more big beasts!

[TomTom]

I thought Trimble was in The Lords ? Strange place for someone discussing domestic security to be seated

[Traditional Tory]

More excellent work by Davis, who should rightly be running this party now, and the arrival of David Trimble provides us with yet another serious contender for the post of serious party leader.

I once asked Trimble what he thought of Major. I will only say that I found the answer deeply satisfying.

The post-Cameron future is increasingly something to look forward to.

[Annabel Herriott]

Richard. If the police go around in tunics again, they will have an above average chance of getting a knife plunged between their shoulder blades. Tough, but thats the way we have gone since Bliar came to power.

[Editor]

You will have a very, very long wait TT: David Cameron will be the Tory leader for a long time.

[David Bodden]

If B’liar is so afraid for his safety then he should confess his crimes. He’ll get all the security he needs in jail.

[Traditional Tory]

Tough, but thats the way we have gone since Bliar came to power.

Quite right Anabelle, but isn't that part of the 'Modern Britain' Dave tells us we have to love?

Of course Blair's 'Cool Britannia' is a squalid, violent, divided, corrupt and immoral sewer of national depravity, but why should I want to support the 'Heir to Blair' proponent of more of the same when I can stick with the real thing?

[gingeral]

Trimble is in the Lords, but he's also too good to waste (if Carrington could be Foreign Secretary from the Lords I don't see why Trimble couldn't hold a cabinet/shadow cabinet post).

[simon]

I think the Ed may well have put the 'kiss of death' on Cambo's leadership of the Conservative Party! IF Cameron does not have an overall majority after the next GE he will be gone quicker than a LibDem after a box of muesli! He may well be gone even sooner if there are any more repeats of cack-handed policy presentations a'la Grammar schools.

[Jack Stone]

Tory Tradional. I would love to see David Trimble in the shadow cabinet as I do think he is a true heavyweight. As for the post Cameron era I am afraid Trimble and Davis will be drawing there pensions before we see the post Cameron era.

[Yet Another Anon]

Groups such as Hizb ut-Tahrir and the Tamil Tigers are unbanned, he writes, but there is a ban on demonstrations within a kilometre of Parliament
Not sure that the UK should be taking a side regarding the Tamil Tigers either with them or with the Sri Lankan government, the Tamils in Sri Lanka have a valid argument - obviously though neither they nor the Sri Lankan government should be allowed to carry out illegal activities on British Territory.

I think allowing unlimited length of internment of those suspected of terrorist activity and/or involvement in organised crime should be available to the police while evidence is being gathered for a trial.

Every UK citizen and anyone coming into the hands of UK authorities and anyone else for which biometric information has been obtained by whatever means should be held in a National ID database and be available to the authorities. It is also reasonable that police should be allowed to stop anyone in order to check identification and also to stop and question anyone if they are suspicious that the person(s) may be involved in a criminal act.

In addition those considered to be likely to commit criminal acts should be able to be detained by the authorities.

Jury trials should be abolished and replaced with an inquisitorial system lead by a panel of judges with special courts relating to National Security matters whether relating to handling anything involving organised crime or terrorism or official secrets - these trials should be secret trials with experts sitting on the panel doing the judging.

Mandatory sentences of a variety of forms of execution & torture based on severity of crimes for which someone has been convicted, number of crimes and types of crime should be introduced. Prisons should also be made harsher with all prisoners held in solitary confinement and cell sizes reduced significantly.

The UK should repeal the Human Rights Act and leave the EU and also leave the European Court of Human Rights and the European Court of Justice.

In addition the UK needs an equivalent of The National Guard for defending the UK from enemies internal and external - Scotland, England, Wales and Ulster could each have their own guardsmen who could be involved in defence and national security functions as a paramilitary force liasing with police, regular armed forces and intelligence services.

[Chris]

...and how long is it until SOCA gets renamed the Gestapo?

I used to think that lots of my friends would never consider voting Tory (Students - they'll learn!), but with issues like this in the press it could all change. I'm sure there are lots of people across the country who would vote blue just to ensure we don't have ID cards or authoritarian police measures brought in.

[TomTom]

neither they nor the Sri Lankan government should be allowed to carry out illegal activities on British Territory.

Is fund-raising "illegal" ?

Britain is after all a source of funding for terrorism in Kashmir to India's disappointment....in fact to many countries Britain appears rather like the Boston Irish do to vociferous Britons

[Yet Another Anon]

Is fund-raising "illegal" ?
It is if it is for a banned organisation or for purposes expressly prohibited, there is credit card fraud that some Tamil Tiger groups are involved in and there is always the possibility of foreign governments and foreign & indigenous groups carrying out assassinations inside the country in regard to disagreements in other countries and this cannot be permitted. But there isn't a single Tamil Tiger group, there has even been an element of infighting amongst different Tamil Tiger groups.

Elements of the Tamil Tigers and certain individuals need to be targeted and detained obviously. The same could be said of Hizb ut-Tahrir. Of course Sinn Fein is the political wing of a terrorist organisation that was pledged to use force to achieve a Socialist Ireland comprising the whole of the island outside of the UK and they weren't banned though they should have been.

[TomTOm]

plan to introduce new stop-and-question powers for the police

Didn't we used to have these and call them Sus Laws ?

[Yet Another Anon]

Britain is after all a source of funding for terrorism in Kashmir to India's disappointment
India of course has been involved in providing funding and military assistance even to the Tamil Tigers, so ban the Tamil Tigers and the next logical step might be to expel the Indian ambassador and declare India a terrorist state.

I don't think India should be involved in supporting the Tamil Tigers, but I equally don't think that action against India should be pursued over this.

While the British government may take positions regarding certain international organisations and indeed use direct military action to effect regime change in some cases, it is not reasonable to take a side in every single conflict going on around the world, both in Britain's interest and to avoid adding to problems in the countries concerned there will be situations where the UK's position is one of neutrality and perhaps even passing on communications between rivals who wish to maintain communications but don't trust each other.

[TomTOm]

it is not reasonable to take a side in every single conflict going on around the world

but we do......politicians print election material in Urdu relating to Kashmir which is a key issue in local elections in areas like Bradford, Batley, Dewsbury, Keighley.......and it was Britain that created the mess in Kashmir which is the longest-duration UNO peace mission in history.

This Labour Party government certainly has a supportive stance on Kashmiri voters in Britain

[John]

The government that lied to us would like to see Hizb ut-Tahrir (The Liberation Party) silenced and organisations like Vigil who likely have their own agenda seek to undermine them because HT are not their cup of tea perhaps because they pointed the finger at the wrongdoer and highlight things of a clandestine nature and support their own culture.

I have been studying their website trying to find a call to violence, bomb making and fanatical hostility of the west but all I can find is sensible and enlightening rhetoric.

People should make the decision if HT needs to be banned and stop listening to the opinion of the government and others that try to make us follow like sheep.

“He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.”
Albert Einstein

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin (1755)

Take a look for yourselves.

http://tinyurl.com/27u7aa

http://tinyurl.com/yr3e2j

http://tinyurl.com/2fht4v

[TomTom]

People should make the decision if HT needs to be banned and stop listening to the opinion of the government and others that try to make us follow like sheep.

I thought it continued to exist because it was an MI5 front organisation to keep track of troublemakers

[David Cooper]

Rather than "ineffective authoritarianism", perhaps a better phrase to use in this context is "misdirected authoritarianism" - I feel this would get the message across that there is no end of it about but that it is all too regularly focused on the wrong targets and perhaps deliberately so. Perhaps DD himself can come up with something more punchy.

[Yet Another Anon]

and it was Britain that created the mess in Kashmir which is the longest-duration UNO peace mission in history
Probably what Kashmir really needs is a spell of Independence as a united state followed by a referendum on whether they should be a separate state, part of Pakistan or part of India - with people getting a second preference and the first one to get over 50% being the option put into effect.

Kashmir was the first issue that the UN Security Council dealt with, as the UK had referred the issue to them and for once the UN came out with a sensible solution - a statewide referendum of people in Kasmir to determine what should happen, and that is what should happen, but India and Pakistan being at a deadlock over the state has prevented this and probably both countries are worried that Kashmir if given the option might decide in favour of being independent of both.

[TomTOm]

Probably what Kashmir really needs is a spell of Independence as a united state followed by a referendum

You forget China.

Why would Hindus in Kashmir want to live without Indian Army protection ? Why would China disgorge its territorial acquisitions ?

This will be a prolonged trouble spot until the day Pakistan crumbles...until then it will be a faultline between China and India and a problem in British inner city elections

[Yet Another Anon]

Why would Hindus in Kashmir want to live without Indian Army protection ? Why would China disgorge its territorial acquisitions ?
It might be that some kind of joint Indian and Pakistani forces might be possible in such a situation, India and Pakistan would both see any further incursion by China as intolerable and would quickly send forces. I don't know that China could take on Indian and Pakistani , and any Kashmiri forces at the same time - besides which China took the territory it felt it was entitled to and has not taken more, the land it took was almost entirely uninhabited and it could have pushed Indian and Pakistani forces back further at the time, but chose not to do so - India and Pakistan are both nuclear powers, India's conventional forces have grown significantly in strength and I think that if China was to invade Kashmir the UN Security Council and especially the US and UK would not tolerate this and China knows this. The territory that India is in dispute with China over is that that China has seized and Pakistan and China have long since signed peace treaties.

Any settlement almost certainly relates only to that territory currently held by India and Pakistan, not what is almost entirely Himalayan upland that China seized.