Roger Helmer appointed new Chairman of TFA

At a meeting of The Freedom Association's Council on St George's Day, Roger Helmer MEP was unanimously elected the new Honorary Chairman of TFA. He succeeds Christopher Gill, former MP for Ludlow, who has now taken on the role of TFA President. Lord Tebbit recently became one of its patrons.

TFA is a multi-issue pressure group, and its campaigns include the Better Off Out campaign against the EU, opposing ID cards, political correctness and the nanny state. Roger said of his appointment:

"It is a huge honour to become the Honorary Chairman of an organisation with such campaigning pedigree that stands for Jeffersonian principles, such as individual liberty, personal responsibility, the free market, strong national defence, low taxation and the small state. It was to support precisely these principles that I got involved in politics, and I look forward greatly to working with The Freedom Association to further promote these ideals."

His recent activities include organising a Counter-Consensual Climate Change Conference and doing a podcast on marriage.

Deputy Editor

Comments

[Bill]

With such estimable objectives, I think I shall join.

[Andrew Woodman]

Well done Roger. A new website has to be top of the agenda methinks.

[Paul Oakley]

Nice to have Roger in a leading role

[Cameron's game is up]

Excellent news.

With Roger as Chairman and Lord Tebbit as BOO patron, how much longer can the Cameroons seek to ignore its EU withdrawal message by seeking to pass it off as a "UKIP front"?

[Frank McGarry]

Congratulations Roger. As a life member of the Freedom Association as well as a subscriber to Roger's newsletter I heartily welcome this appointment.

[Judith]

The Freedom Association has a long history of vigorous campaigning for personal and political liberty and was never more needed than it is now, with our current Government. It is excellent to have Roger as the new Chairman, with his track record of standing up for the principles which he knows to be right. Congratulations and good wishes to him in this new role.

[RodS]

To rephrase Thomas Jeffersons dictum as quoted by The Freedom Association ( very impressed with Roger Helmers appointment)

" When the Board is in fear of the Members you have liberty - When the members are in fear of the Board you have tyranny"

[Anne Fletcher]

I echo two of the postings - first, best wishes to Roger Helmer; I am delighted that such an effective campaigner is joining the Freedom Association's team and I am sure they will go from strength to strength; and second, a new website, a bit more modern, would help promote the Association even better.
What a pity more of our MEPs are not like Roger, willing to leave the federalist EPP and willing to challenge corruption in the EU. He should be leading the Tories in Brussels.

[Drew SW London]

"Euro-nonentity heads bunch of fringe nutters. Trolls applaud. No-one interesting or important hurt."

[Bill]

Mr Drew in south west London (no less) is so sharp, I'll have to change my entire political philosophy(not).

[Drew SW London]

Quite frankly, bill, just changing the bloody record would do.

[Cllr. Tony Woodcock]

With Roger at the helm of The Freedom Association we can expect the cross-party appeal of small "c" conservatism to gain more ground. I would thank our retiring Chairman, Christopher Gill, for the way he has assiduously nurtured and prepared the ground for this advance during some difficult times.
Great news for those who love freedom. Great news for those who love Britain.
Great news for those who want us to govern ourselves once again.Better Off Out!

[Jimmy]

TFA are an quaint group of Daily Mail, Daily Express reading Little Englanders and UKIP sympathisers, many of whom still retain Conservative Party membership. If we could afford to lose the support of these people I would urge the Party Leadership to immediately withdraw the whip from MPs and MEPs associated with this extremist grouping. The views of dinosaurs in TFA towards the EU are incompatible with a modern and fresh Conservative Party. Unfortunately, we need these people at the grassroots level – at least until the next generation of activists matures. It is absolutely vital that everything is done to promote sensible ideas towards the EU at the youth level of the party and furthering links with our friends in Europe is vital – we need to discreetly align ourselves closely with Angela Merkel’s CDU. And the brave decision to make a U-Turn over the EPP has to be taken.

As we face increasing competition from the likes of China and India for a divided Europe to speak with twenty odd different voices would have catastrophic future consequences in terms of int’l influence and economic standing. A Europe united is a Europe stronger and on the main, key issues Europe must speak with a single, strong voice. TFA cannot stand in the way of progress towards this. Cameron has recognised that there is a need to appease extremist anti-EU sentiment within the Conservative Party, the challenge of appeasing to keep these extremist elements on board until they can be lost whilst furthering our relations with the EU presents a significant challenge.

[Bill]

Jimmy's post is a risible. The EU has caused damage to this country in ways too numerous to mention. Europe literally speaks with more than twenty voices. And it does us no good. Anyone who thinks a Europe based on the EU as presently constructed or as contemplated will provide a secure, competitive and prosperous future for its member states is living in a dream. Time moves on and the irony is a united federal Europe was the dream of some of Heath's generation and is not the vision for today's youth any more than esperanto is.

[Derek]

Congratulations to Roger.

The TFA have a proud record of standing up for the ideals that made this nation great. They have had a succession of outstanding chairmen, and Roger Helmer is an excellent choice to follow in that tradition.

If Jimmy [above] believes that the younger generation is less supportive of the nation states then he needs to look more closely at the views they hold. If anything they are more eurosceptic than the present. The tide is turning against the EU project.

[Chris Palmer]

"Euro-nonentity heads bunch of fringe nutters. Trolls applaud. No-one interesting or important hurt." - Drew

So uninteresting and unimportant that you felt compelled to read and comment on the article, eh, Drew?

[Robert Winterton]

Jimmy - such twaddle - first of all grow up, secondly don't be so disparaging about people who probably have done more for both party and country than you! Thirdly, it seems you have no real understanding of the European Project and just believe that by sticking with a Federal Superstate is the only answer to face the threats of the future - how pathetic and naive, also very much the policy of our defeatist FO for the last 50 years. Finally,the only way to face the economic might of the BRIC nations is through flexability,and a low cost high tech not the 'fortress Europe' mentality that still pervades socialist Europe.Europe has cost us and needs us more - please grow up and realise the fact that the European question is no more than the Emperor's clothes all over again.For the record I have worked in the city for 22 years for both UK and European institutions and most, if not a considerable majority of people I have worked with realise that the European experiment has not delivered but done quite the reverse, including it seems Derek Scott who was Blair's economic adviser.

[Jimmy]

No mainstream strand of British political thought will ever advocate EU withdrawal and support isolating ourselves from our European allies. Big business generally supports our membership of the EU. The US supports our membership – long realising the benefits of having one of its best allies as a major player in the EU. The little Englanders, TFA Daily Express crowd can do whatever they want, they can severely divide the party on Europe (again) – but they ain’t gonna change a thing. Britain is not going to leave the EU.

"If Jimmy [above] believes that the younger generation is less supportive of the nation states then he needs to look more closely at the views they hold. If anything they are more eurosceptic than the present. The tide is turning against the EU project."

I'm a 19 year old student.

I have found most educated young people in this country to be broadly supportive of the EU. (Although, I have not found the same amongst the less educated). Perhaps the younger generation is not enthusiastic enough about the EU - the answer to that is to educate young Britons about the benefits of our EU membership. (Perhaps this could form a big part in 'citizenship' classes in our schools).

[malcolm]

If 'Jimmy' is who I think he is he's just a troll who likes baiting Conservatives. He'll soon get bored and go away if he's ignored.
Well done Roger. I wish you all the best and hope that you can take the TFA into more mainstream Conservatism in a way that Christopher Gill really failed to do.

[Jimmy]

"If 'Jimmy' is who I think he is he's just a troll who likes baiting Conservatives."

No idea who you think I am...But I resent the bizarre assumption that a Conservative strongly supportive of the EU and willing to recognise the many benefits that our membership brings can somehow not be a Conservative. In France, in Germany it is perfectly acceptable to be a conservative yet supportive of the EU... The British conservative movement has taken a step backwards I suppose.

[Bill]

Jimmy says:

"I'm a 19 year old student."

"I have found most educated young people in this country to be broadly supportive of the EU. (Although, I have not found the same amongst the less educated)."

"Perhaps the younger generation is not enthusiastic enough about the EU - the answer to that is to educate young Britons about the benefits of our EU membership."

I think Jimmy has a lot to learn.

[Richard]

"I have found most educated young people in this country to be broadly supportive of the EU. (Although, I have not found the same amongst the less educated)."

I have found most educated young people to be against.

"Perhaps the younger generation is not enthusiastic enough about the EU - the answer to that is to educate young Britons about the benefits of our EU membership."

Otherwise known as indoctrination.

Opinion polls consistently show a majority of people opposed to greater integration and yet you advocate brainwashing children into supporting your minority view. I am highly tempted to believe those who consider you a troll.

Euroscepticism is popular with the wider public and you know it.

[Adrian Owens]

Fastastic news. I'm sure the Freedom Association will go from strength to strength with Roger's guidance.

[Jimmy]

The kind of patronising nonsense we all expect from the out-of-touch little Englanders...

Get in the real world, we're not leaving the EU. And I'm slightly puzzled as to where this idea that young people are eurosceptic comes from. Some seem to think that just because the likes of Conservative Way Forward and the Young Britons Foundation are strongly eurosceptic they are representative of most young people. YBF/CWF both have hawkish, neo-con sympathies, both still seem pretty much behind Bush and his agenda. Anybody living in the real world with any actual contact with young people (who are not YBF/CWF activists) will know that most young British people are not ardent eurosceptic neo-cons. (I am atlanticist and support much of the ideals of the GOP, I just don't subscribe to the YBF/CWF eurosceptic agenda).

[Denis Cooper]

I'd love to be educated about the benefits of the EU, but I fear that Jimmy may
not have the time for a full exposition ... anyway, where would one start?

[John Ashworth]

You obviously dont live in the North Jimmy.

[Paul Oakley]

So - Jimmy is a 19 year old student. He's obviously swallowed the pro-EU propaganda which is stuffed down our kids' throats at school as part of "citizenship" lessons. When (if) you ever get to university, you'll hopefully learn about critical analysis my boy.

[Andrew Woodman]

Jimmy (If that is your name, and you're not a troll), can you point to an opinion poll which shows this great love of the EU that the young have? I suspect you'll find many young people in tune with many of the freedom associations principles.

P.S There seem to be a lot of pro EU posters popped up from nowhere is the last few days.(All making no other argument than supposed influence) Is there any reason for this??

[Jimmy]

"I'd love to be educated about the benefits of the EU"

Cleaner rivers, cleaner beaches, cleaner vehicles. Millions of young Europeans working and living in different European countries experiencing different cultures and learning new languages.(Erasmus/Socrates in particular). Greater opportunities to work and travel, being able to live/work/retire wherever one wants within the EU. Peace and stability. The chance to create a body which can represent the broad interests of all strongly. Oregon or Massachusetts alone would struggle to face global challenges or influence the int'l community. Whilst Britain alone does command some influence, it makes sense to work with our European allies - we face common threats, we have similar interests - acting as one we're much stronger. The EU allows this and will do this more successfully with further integration.

[Jimmy]

"When (if) you ever get to university, you'll hopefully learn about critical analysis my boy."

You can talk down to me all you want. Conservatives who think leaving the EU is a realistic or plausible prospect are on another planet.

(And I'm at Warwick thank-you very much).

[Paul Oakley]

Nice one Jimmy. Where did you cut and paste that from?

[Andrew Woodman]

The idea that we've only got cleaner rivers and beaches because of EU membership is surely one of the biggest myths going. I'm sure as a national Government, that the UK would manage to achieve this without the help of thousands of civil servants in Brussels and paying £10billion for the privledge. The opportunities to work and travel within European counctries can easily be achieved through treaty. There is not one single reason you've given which I consider is worth throwing away our democracy for. Answer me 2 questions Jimmy

1. Is it really right that a nation state should have more than half it's laws emanate from the unelected unaccountable bureaucracy that the EU is?

2. 4. If EU membership is so essential to British business, perhaps you would care to state how countries such as Iceland, Norway and Switzerland have fared outside the EU but inside EFTA?

[Jimmy]

The EU’s PR department obviously. *rolls eyes*

So what kind of alternative relationship with the EU do you propose Paul? (The TFA/Daily Mail crowd never seem to get beyond 'leaving' the EU...)

[Paul Oakley]

"I calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already. . . . What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community"

Night night Jimmy.

[Ash Faulkner]

"Cleaner rivers, cleaner beaches, cleaner vehicles."

I don't know how you quantify that. Do you have proof of these clean beaches, and of how dirty they were before 1973?

"Millions of young Europeans working and living in different European countries experiencing different cultures and learning new languages.(Erasmus/Socrates in particular). Greater opportunities to work and travel, being able to live/work/retire wherever one wants within the EU."

Indeed. None of which requires a centralised bureaucracy in Brussels to administrate.

"Peace and stability."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/wiki/NATO

"The chance to create a body which can represent the broad interests of all strongly."

I really recommend you look into the history of the EU. Since we joined, we have often been the odd ones out, 'the minority of one'. And from Thatcher onwards, when we took the economic liberal model, rather than the corporatist model in Europe, our entire philosophical outlook has been distinctly different to that of the Continent.

"Oregon or Massachusetts alone would struggle to face global challenges or influence the int'l community. Whilst Britain alone does command some influence, it makes sense to work with our European allies - we face common threats, we have similar interests - acting as one we're much stronger. The EU allows this and will do this more successfully with further integration."

Many points there.

First, the idea that Britain has more influence as a member of the EU. Just what has the EU achieved internationally? Did it end the Balkans? Did it help with North Korea? Did it have a united policy on Iraq? How effective was its attitude towards Iran?

Second, influence should be a means, not an end. The idea that 'oh look at us, we're bigger and better as the EU so we can force people to do what we want' is incredibly unilateralist. Indeed, it is an attack often thrown at the US. We should seek influence not for its own sake, we should seek it to make the world a safer place: and, as the above point says, the EU has monumentally failed in that respect.

There is no EU foreign policy, and there never can be. Intergovernmental/supranational organisations are notorious for being ineffective. It has always been nation-states acting together with common interests *as nation-states* that have been able to take proper action.

[Jimmy]

1. Is it really right that a nation state should have more than half it's laws emanate from the unelected unaccountable bureaucracy that the EU is?

I would like to see the EU significantly reformed and democratised. I think the EU needs an elected overall leader, say ‘president’ for ease of explaining my thoughts. I’ve not fully thought about the exact details of such a position – but I think it should be an elected one. Significantly democratising the EU however cannot happen overnight. Just as a US election excites people worldwide, we need elections for an EU president to interest and exite people throughout the EU. We would need a campaign crossing national boundaries, occurring simultaneously throughout the EU and understood throughout the EU. And a common understanding of the candidates across the EU - joined-up EU politics. Currently this is an impossibility; within the EU between different countries we watch different TV channels and read different newspapers and communicate in different languages. We need to work towards a common understanding and this requires us to break the language barrier. It would be a slow and long-winded process but ideally I think every EU citizen from a very young age (beginning at primary school) should be learning two European languages in addition to their native tongue. (And of these two, I would think one should be English and the other French or German). I think this would help slowly. To make the EU work we need to break down national barriers in politics, we need to redefine European politics as something major in its own right.

Is it really right? In the long term no, in the short term it's necessary.

2. 4. If EU membership is so essential to British business, perhaps you would care to state how countries such as Iceland, Norway and Switzerland have fared outside the EU but inside EFTA?

How many times have we heard this before? Iceland, Norway and Switzerland, as you know, all have very different circumstances to Britain.

[Ash Faulkner]

There is no European culture. There is no European identity. There is no European outlook on the world. There is no European political culture. There is no European economy.

Why do you insist on trying to make one? It is unnatural, and will therefore fail. Everyone has a different outlook on what they want from Europe. The Germans want a federal state, the French want a "strong Europe with weak institutions", we want an alliance of sovereign states, Belgium just wants some influence in the world!

There are unique cultural and historical identities within each nation-state of Europe: that's why they exist in the first place. If the overcentralisation and attempts at uniformity by the Soviet Union aren't proof enough that top down attempts at changing things are doomed to failure, I don't know what is.

Europe is a geographical expression, and so, despite this foolish and ultimately very damaging experiment, it shall remain. If a European identity with a European language and a European president ever exist, let them evolve of their own accord. If you don't, your idealistic, utopian plans will, in the end, collapse.

[Jimmy]

"I calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already. . . . What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community"
---

Paul Oakley - Desperate, baseless and offensive smear tbh. And so far from the truth.

And very rich coming from someone who is part of the TFA/Daily Mail crowd. I wonder why the Freedom Association never spoke up for gay people, maybe they never cared about their freedoms...

[Ash Faulkner]

Jimmy, twice now you haven't responded to my posts. I asked what I'd consider quite an important question: why should there be a political Europe? For all your song and dance, you haven't answered it.

[Jimmy]

"we're bigger and better as the EU so we can force people to do what we want' is incredibly unilateralist"

We're stronger as one. A superpower if you like.

"There is no European culture. There is no European identity. There is no European outlook on the world. There is no European political culture. There is no European economy."

There was once no American culture, no American identity, no American outlook, no American political culture. So what?

Europe is diverse, within Europe there are many differences. The same is true of different American states. European countries all have distinct cultural aspects to them and a rich history. Many European countries were once great world powers, many are no longer so. Portugal and Spain don't command the influence they once did. There are many, many different European languages - and lots of small languages in fact that will survive partly thanks to the EU.

There might be differences but there is also much common ground on which we can work together...on trade, foreign relations, law and order with a bit of work we can work as one. And working together we can better compete with the Chinese, the Russians, the Indians and protect the European way of life. European countries have their traditions and as odd as it sounds to you, the best way to protect and preserve them is through the EU. And slowly working towards a United States of Europe which would better safeguard the security and status of States makes sense.

[Richard]

Jimmy,

Why should the electorate of France and Germany (or anywhere else on the Continent) be able to have a say in what laws are passed here?

Why should we be banned from using metric measurements when the majority of people are quite happy with them?

How have we benefitted from the CAP and CFP?

How do we benefit from the common external tariff which prevents us from having access to cheaper imported food?

What is wrong with the idea of the EU as just a free trade area?

How would you like it if someone proposed that all children be told at school that the EU is evil and that we should leave? Do you honestly think that parents will be quite happy to sit back and allow their children to be indoctrinated in pro-EU opinions?

All opinion polls on the single currency and the Constitution showed a majority (including young people) against. Polls have also constantly shown a demand for a repatriation of powers and the halting of further integration. Just because this majority disagrees with you you believe that children should be forced to learn about the (debatable) benefits of the EU?

I'm quite happy for this country to co-operate and trade with the EU, I just object to laws being made which I didn't vote for and which my government can't repeal.

[MH]

Well done Jimmy.

It is important that a pragmatic European perspective is argued, and argued cogently and with passion if the Conservative Party is ever to be in power again.

We need the debate. We can not put it off any more. We need to deal with the anti-Europeans and show that we are a grown-up party and ready once more for the responsibilities of power. A pragmatic approach to Europe is a litmus test of political maturity.

Its time the so-called “activists” got in touch with the grassroots and stopped simply speaking to those of a like mind if we ever want to win an election again.

I note that Andrew Woodman has dropped points 1 and 2 from his "please explain list" from yesterday’s blog. I presume I answered the point re Fisheries earlier to day to his full satisfaction. He now understands why an engaged approach to the CFP is important to Britain and all those who derive their living from fishing and related industries.

Turning to the essence of this debate the key point is - WE HAVE TRIED EUROSCEPTISM – As a policy IT FAILED.

Our anti-European policy cost us the past three elections. THAT IS A FACT.

The majority of this country is not anti-European. We know that. We have tested it at the polls.

My generation, the 40 - 45 year olds drifted away from Conservatism precisely because they were embarrassed by the policies put forward by the loony anti-European fringe of the Conservative Party so ably and effectively represented by Roger Helmer. He is not a serious politician, he is simply a grandstander.

Does anyone remember Hague’s speech of the 26 May, 2001 - "12 days to save the Pound"? http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=news.story.page&obj_id=11274&speeches=1

Read it - you can't say the Euro-sceptics did not have the chance to sell their view, and guess what the Great British public were not buying.

For the excruciating embarrassment of the Euro-sceptics let me give you a few choice quotes from the former, and failed, leader of the Conservative Party, William Hague's speech:

"This election is not just about who will form the next Government. It's also about whether we continue to have a Government that is sovereign in this country. It's about whether we carry on deciding our own affairs at future general elections.

"Yesterday, Tony Blair made his intentions clear. If he is re-elected, he will speed up the process of European integration. He has said that he plans to scrap the pound within two years.”

2001 + 2 years = 2003. Do you think Hague was slightly, with all his pseudo-Churchillian rhetoric, over egging his case?

The next section is embarrassing for all Conservatives:

“So I am not choosing my words lightly when I say that this could be the last general election of its kind. The last time that the people of the United Kingdom are able to elect a Parliament which is supreme in this country.

"This is an issue that ought to transcend party politics. I know that there are many decent, patriotic people who are not natural Conservatives but who are just as concerned as we are about preserving our self-government. People who may be lifelong Labour or Liberal voters, but who want to keep the pound.

"I am appealing to those people this morning. Lend us your vote. Lend us your vote this time, so that your vote will still mean something next time, and the time after, and the time after that. Vote Conservative this one time, so that we can carry on having meaningful general elections in an independent Britain.”

Guess what – the Great British public did not give us their votes, nor did they lend us their votes.

The BBC verdict on the 2001 election: “But in almost every other sense, the 2001 campaign ended in the same way the 1997 campaign did - with Labour winning a landslide and the Tory leader quitting.“

Labour had 413 seats, we had a measly 166.

The BBC commented as follows: “Small anti-Euro vote: Anti-European Union campaigners failed to attract much support in counts across the country.” http://news.bbc.co.uk/vote2001/hi/english/newsid_1376000/1376389.stm

We have tried anti-Europeanism – and we lost.

It is time for a mature and pragmatic attitude towards Europe.

[Tam Large]

The only mature and pragmatic attitude is to admit the damage it has done to us, and the billions it has taken which could have been used for the NHS, tax reduction etc, and GET OUT OF IT NOW.

We will be Better Off Out. Well done Roger - great news, and I'm sure you will take TFA to even greater success and influence.

[Chad]

P.S There seem to be a lot of pro EU posters popped up from nowhere is the last few days.(All making no other argument than supposed influence) Is there any reason for this??

You'd almost think you guys are about to organise your MEP s(titch-up)election and some are getting nervous?

Well done to Roger and Chris Gill. The TFA is the leading light in showing that Tories and ukippers can work together above party politics.

[Andrew Woodman]

MH, I don't ask the same questions of everyone and didn't even realise you had answered the Fisheries question. If so, there are 3 left to answer.

Are you saying that if we had a more pro European attitude, we would have won the last 3 elections?

I do hope you get the chance to take on Roger Helmer for the MEP selection.

[Richard Hyslop]

Congratulations Roger.

[Scottish Eurosceptic]

Hey Jimmy!
My brother works abroad, in Hong Kong, learnt a foreign language - Chinese - and guess what - it's not in the EU!

As for peace in the last 50 years - ever heard of NATO?

Your posts just demonstrate how low university entrance standards have slipped - which saddens me...

As for MH - the reason the Tories lost 3 elections was that after the fiasco of Black Wednesday, the public, quite rightly, said we should never trust these jokers with the economy again!

[Scotty]

Scottish Eurosceptic, your memory must be failing because the voting public also did not like the Conservative party tearing itself apart over an issue which did not galvanise many outside the rabid eurosceptic wing.
Although a Eurosceptic myself, I make no apologies for not placing it any higher than the general public as an issue which might sway votes.
It is not worth the party ripping itself apart again or risking losing a GE over. Half a glass is better than an empty glass.

[Scottish Euroescptic]

Scotty - of course it did not galvanise many - you lot bent over backwards to NOT explain the impact - for example post office closures. Why do you think that non-voters are the biggest number at elections - because they realise that Labour, Blue-Labour, and Dim-Libs are all bound to rubber-stamp 70% of our laws from the EU!

They don't vote UKIP, because they know that under first-past-the-post we (probably) won't win...

But look at EU elections, where we have PR: 12 MEPs elected! The EU is NOT popular, and as soon as Cameron realises this, and makes Frederick Forsyth a happy man by crying "God for Harry, England and St. George", or whatever battle-cry he prefers, the better...

[Richard]

"The majority of this country is not anti-European. We know that. We have tested it at the polls."

Then why hasn't there been a referendum on the single currency? Because Blair knew he would lose it. He only promised a referendum on the EU constitution because of public pressure and all the polls pointed towards a defeat. Opinion polls consistently show opposition to greater integration and even a restoration of power. You don't honestly think compulsory metrification is popular do you? Right now the Tories are leading in the opinion polls despite Cameron's Euroscepticism.

The Tories lost in 2001 because they were seen as a joke (I wanted them to win but even I failed to be inspired by their campaign). Most people didn't put Europe at the top of their agenda, especially because Blair had promised a referendum on the Euro. That didn't mean people weren't Eurosceptic. Incidently, it is notable that the Tories did very well in the European elections in 1999 despite their unpopularity. The pro-Euro Conservative Party barely got anywhere. Then in 2004 the Tories came first again and UKIP made a strong showing.

Support for EU withdrawal may not be has high as it was (it reached a peak of 52% in 2000) but there is barely any enthusiasm for greater integration. All the Eurobarometer polls show that the UK is amongst the least enthusiastic countries when it comes to support for the EU.

[John Wilkin]

"How many times have we heard this before? Iceland, Norway and Switzerland, as you know, all have very different circumstances to Britain."

Switzerland is a financial centre - so is the City of London. Norway has oil - so does the UK. Iceland has fisheries, so did the UK until we signed up to the Common Fisheries Policy

[Sef]

And working together we can better compete with the Chinese, the Russians, the Indians and protect the European way of life.

Of all the stupid arguments in favour of the EU, this is the worst one by far.

To better compete with the Chinese et al, we need to give up on the European Sıocial Model which is strangling our businesses across the continent. The EU is precisely the thing that is damaging our ability to compete, not some strategic advantage.

I hope Jimmy learns a thing or two at Warwick, including the fact that companies compete against each other, not countries. Its a great university Jimmy, don't waste the opportunity.

As for Roger, congratulations, to a perfect match of a great chap an an institution with admirable aims.

[Sean Fear]

Jimmy and MH - do you remember one of Britain's smallest ever political parties, the pro-Euro Conservative Party? IIRC they got about 0.6% of the vote in the 1999 Euro elections, and 154 votes in one constituency in 2001. That is what your brand of europhile Conservatism amounts to.

The idea that loads of people were turned away from the Conservatives because of their eurosceptic policies is a nonsense. The electoral evidence suggests quite the opposite. The Conservatives topped both EU Parliamentary polls in 1999, and 2004, and in the latter year, eurosceptic parties took about 60% of the national vote. Every opinion polls has shown strong opposition to the introduction of the Euro, and the EU Constitution, and for that reason, the government has never gone for a referendum on those issues.

I'd be surprised if even 10% of the population regarded themselves as part of some European nation. As the vast majority of us don't, it's wrong to take away our right to self-government, which is what government by eurocrats amounts to.

[changetowin]

Freedom Association are a fringe group with little to contribute to the modern Conservative Party. I fear many of their members are UKIP/BNP sympathisers.

[Sean Fear]

The Freedom Association are mainly libertarian, so neither they nor the BNP would appeal to each other.

Their supporters are a mixture of Conservative and UKIP. Given that quite a large number of Conservative MPs, Peers, and MEPs are members, they are anything but a "fringe" organisation.

[changetowin]

Libertarian? I heard that the Editor of their magazine was removed for including too much socially liberal material including a feature on a female boxer...

[Paul Oakley]

"I fear many of their members are UKIP/BNP sympathisers"

UKIP, certainly, and also the Liberal Party as well as, of course, the Tories. Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back up your absurd BNP allegation?

[changetowin]

It was a fear - I haven't done polling. I've read their extremist literature and spoken to some of their members and I feared that their membership might contain UKIP/BNP sympathisers... There are links to "Right Now" magazine on their site too...

[Fearful One]

I'm afraid that Changetowin might have drowned a few puppies in the Serpentine. I've no evidence to back up this fear, it's just something I'm afraid of.

[Sharp-eyed observer]

Isn't it spooky that in all the many posts Changetowin has submitted to CH, not a single one has condemned the senseless drowning of defenceless puppies? I think that speaks volumes.

[Paul Oakley]

"I've read their extremist literature and spoken to some of their members and I feared that their membership might contain UKIP/BNP sympathisers... There are links to "Right Now" magazine on their site too... "

Er - it also has links to eight pro-EU websites including the Conservative Group For Europe. And, Horror! This very site.

Extremist literature? What, withdrawal from the EU; cutting tax; cutting bureaucracy; opposing ID cards and fighting the surveillance state?

You're speaking from the seventh planet mate.

[Cllr Keith Standring]

malcolm wrote on April 25 @22:17 Well done Roger. I wish you all the best and hope that you can take the TFA into more mainstream Conservatism in a way that Christopher Gill really failed to do.

I regard myself as a free-market, libertarian Conservative and an active member of TFA. The strength of TFA lies in the fact that it is not committed to any political party.

It is committed to the defence of personal and political freedom, believing that a free society can only be properly maintained if there is an understanding of the economic, constitutional and moral principles that alone can sustain that society.

Anyone subscribing to the Seven Principles of a Free Society may join TFA, and personally I am proud to work with people from different political persuasions and none who subscribe to:
· Individual Freedom
· Personal and Family Responsibility
· The Rule of Law
· Limited Government
· Free Market Economy
· National Parliamentary Democracy
· Strong National Defences

In this life you must stand for something or you'll fall for anything! Roger Helmer has repeatedly demonstrated that he not only stands for something, but is also willing to vigorously and bravely pursue his stand despite the risks involved. As such he will make an admirable Hon Chairman of TFA and like his excellent and principled predecessor, Christopher Gill, he will unite the TFA members behind its campaigns, and not seek to make TFA a satellite of the Conservative Party. I extend my heartfelt congratulations to Roger and look forward to working under his leadership in TFA.

[Richard]

"There are links to "Right Now" magazine on their site too... "

Which no longer exists.

[Mark Fulford]

I suppose it's all a question of which freedoms you value. I value the freedom to move freely within the EU, to sell my goods freely to the EU, to breath unpolluted air, etc, etc.

The EU is pro-freedom, so why is it an enemy of "The Freedom Association"?

[John Wilkin]

Why are the federalists here so afraid to post under their own names?

[Sean Fear]

If I may be so bold as to answer on their behalf Mark, I imagine it's because membership of the EU (as it currently exists) is incompatible with the freedom of a country's electorate to choose how they are governed.

[Jimmy]

I’ll happily admit my hope for a long term vision and creation of a true United States of Europe is for the foreseeable future a fantasy. (But, I think it could realistically happen one day). However, it is complete fantasy to support a reckless EU withdrawal that will never happen. No mainstream political party will ever feature a plan for a referendum on membership in their manifesto. Business leaders, the City, academia and the mainstream political establishment for the most part do not want withdrawal. And for most Britons the EU is a relatively minor issue. It’s amazing that Conservatives have not learnt the lessons of 2001.

As for the Freedom Association - it's a very sinister organisation with a Right Now magazine/Monday club type membership, backward views on homosexuality and a shadowy past.

[Sean Fear]

"However, it is complete fantasy to support a reckless EU withdrawal that will never happen. No mainstream political party will ever feature a plan for a referendum on membership in their manifesto."

Where's your crystal ball, Jimmy?

"As for the Freedom Association - it's a very sinister organisation with a Right Now magazine/Monday club type membership, backward views on homosexuality and a shadowy past. "

TFA doesn't have any corporate view on homosexuality. It's not part of the organisation's remit. Some members would have liberal views about it, others would have conservative views. However, it is revealing that you should describe the organisation in almost identical terms to those used by left wing organisations like Searchlight.

[malcolm]

If all the people you mention are against withdrawal Jimmy then you have absolutely nothing to fear from a referendum do you? The fact that no referendum has been called to prove this means that wiser heads than yours rule in EU federalist camp Jimmy. They know they'd lose. In my opinion it wouldn't even be close.

[Jimmy]

If there was a proper campaign and the ‘yes’ camp had the same resources as the ‘no’ camp and was able to clearly put its message out to voters I do not think we would lose. (And that’s even considering the sympathetic newspapers that would benefit the ‘no’ camp disproportionately).

And anyway the only circumstance in which a referendum would be justifiable is if it featured in the manifesto of a party forming the govt. (And no mainstream political party is ever going to promise a referendum in their manifesto). Really - this EU withdrawal nonsense is boring, it's not plausible and talk of such irresponsible ideas in the Conservative Party make it hard for people to take us seriously.

[Mark Fulford]

We’ve fought general elections on Europe, and convincingly lost them. We’ve had polls of Conservative members, and they showed a minority support outright withdrawal. It’s a bigoted argument that rages despite the evidence and I see absolutely no evidence that a referendum would settle it.

There’s strong Conservative support for reforming the EU, but it would be electoral suicide to stand for withdrawal. However, if withdrawal is what you want, there is a party which expresses your views exactly and I really don't understand why you don't just join them.

[Sean Fear]

So the EU is destined to last as long as Mankind, Jimmy?

Like the Roman Empire, Austria Hungary, or the Soviet Union?

[Sean Fear]

So, is it your view, Mark, that we would have done better had we not opposed the Euro, or the EU constitution?

[Jimmy]

Maybe you’re right though Malcolm – maybe we would lose a referendum. I can’t think of a better reason for making the EU a key part of Citizenship classes. Explaining the history of the EU, what the EU does, how the EU works and learning about other member states would be a step forward. (Already this happens to some extent, in Geography classes for example the EU comes up when looking at development and the environment - but much more needs to be done). When children are presented with the actual facts (to counter-balance the tabloid myths they see their parents reading) they would grow up and be capable of making an educated choice. :P

[Andrew Woodman]

Jimmy, I wasn't going to respond to any of your laughable points, but the idea of 'educating' kids about the greatness of the EU is akin to the propoganda brainwashing employed by tyranical dictators.

Would these classes mention a. The accounts haven't been signed off for years b. The damage CAP has donw to the third world c. How the EU robs the Uk of its soverign power and supplies 70% of our laws. d. The £10 billion a year it costs us. I could go on.

[Bill]

Children should be properly educated at school and they should learn this country's history. Then when they learn about the EU they will be able to put it into context and see what a tragic diversion the EU represents from our historic freedom, our right to make our own laws and treaties and our sovereign right to govern ourselves.

[malcolm]

I can think of only one election that was even vaguely 'fought on Europe' Mark, 'ie 7 days to save the pound' etc. I would readily accept that that campaign was lamentable. You can't get away from the fact though that Euroscepticism is popular both in the polls and at all recent Euro elections.
Jimmy, I'm not sure whether to take your amazingly patronizing last post seriously.I suppose it might be your last hope,ie trying to indoctrinate innocent and trusting children. As Andrew Woodman pointed out it a tactic favoured by tyrannical dictators who are frightened of truth, honest debate and most importantly the prospect of a democratic vote.

[Jimmy]

Who said anything about brainwashing? Or educating children about the 'greatness' of the EU?

I think - explaining the history of the EU, what the EU does, how the EU works and learning about other member states should play an important part in citizenship/PSE classes. I support informing people of the facts - I don't think that information relating to the EU should be given with any particular pro-EU slant, just as children shouldn't be taught about the EU through Daily Mail style editorials. Putting the facts on the table and allowing a proper debate in a citizenship class isn't brainwashing.

[Bill]

Jimmy is of course right about having the facts laid before us. Indeed more than a decade before Jimmy was born I remember my school economics illustrating what a con the EU was.

[Gospel of Enoch]

Learning about other member states is a thourighly good idea, which I don't think anyone in UKIP or any other party (BNP excepted) would object to, but why just the EU? Why not the commonwealth states, too, for example?

[Ash Faulkner]

MH, how you can declare the following statement 'pragmatic', I do not know:

"And slowly working towards a United States of Europe which would better safeguard the security and status of States makes sense."

The EU has never been put to the electorate, that's the whole point. We lost the 2001 election because we were still divided as a party over Europe, the shadow of Black (White!) Wednesday was still over our heads, the Labour Party was enormously popular, and we campaigned on a single issue when we should have been campaigning on all of them.

A General Election result is an incredibly poor test on which to base the theory that the public support European integration. As most people rightly recognise, the EU is not at the top of people's list of priorities: education, the NHS, crime, finance are. People vote on those ideas at a GE.

A better test of public support for European integration would be a referendum, because it is a single issue and people can become better informed. And oh look. That's just what we've never had.

[Bill Pitt]

Good to see Roger Helmer MEP in charge at the Freedom Association. I am fascinated by the vitriol that some posters direct at the Freedom Association. It makes me wonder what they fear from its views and its members. Some clearly are frightened of free speech (presumably why they support the EU). As for equal resources Jimmy has clearly never read the independant research from Northumbria University on the diversion of Government funds and comparable resources to the pro EU campaigns over the years. I really doubt that "Jimmy" really is a teenager and if he is he is the only one I know who is pro EU. All of the ones in the office that I work in are either very anti or just simply detest the whole corrupt organisation but then again Jimmy probably wouldn't allow then to vote as they haven't been to Uni like what he has. What will he propose next? that all our votes should be weighted according to our IQ.

[Jimmy]

No, 'Bill' I don't support linking voting rights to IQ score. (IQ testing is somewhat flawed anyway imo).

You 'really doubt' that I'm a teenager because you've not met any others who are pro-EU. Hilarious. Apparently (according to the bizarre posts of some on here) your typical EU supporter is middle aged, or even older. And I wonder what the average age of a eurosceptic Conservative Party member is? A eurosceptic Conservative activist? A Freedom Association member? Late fifties to sixties I'd imagine...if not even older.

Most well-travelled and well educated people I know support the EU. (Although, a lot of people I know are indifferent). Of course there are young eurosceptics - but I've not found them to form the vast majority...a pretty notable minority perhaps, a quarter maybe.. All these people who think every young person shares the views of the Daily Mail on Europe should not consider CF notable representative of young people.

[Ash Faulkner]

Asking the youth of today about politics is like getting blood out of a stone (I'd know, I'm part of that youth). My experience of those of my generation that do take an interest are, as you say, generally indifferent. Those with whom I study politics are all anti-EU, and I've never met one pro-EU person in my generation.

Furthermore, I've yet to meet anyone that supports the EU as it presently operates...though I've never met a European Commissioner.

You ask, "...what the average age of a eurosceptic Conservative Party member is?" I'd extend that further and ask what the average age of someone who actually takes an interest in politics, aside from wearing 'MakePovertyHistory' bands, is. The answer won't speak much for our democracy, I suspect...and that rather voids your question about age of eurosceptics.

[Andrew Woodman]

I'm 25 Jimmy, and know of no one amongst my age group who has any love of the EU (and they are well travelled and have degrees).

Still think you're a troll. Strange all these pro EU posters suddenly appear.

[Jimmy]

"I've never met one pro-EU person in my generation."

So every single person from your generation that you have discussed the EU with supports EU withdrawal? I find that very hard to believe. Do you ever mix outside of politics circles? Your experience anyway - very different to my own. Regardless, without any polling data of young people and their attitudes towards the EU it's a pretty pointless argt for both of us.

"Still think you're a troll. Strange all these pro EU posters suddenly appear."

Anyone who disagrees with your xenophobic anti-EU line is a troll... Open to different ideas aren't you?

[Gospel of Enoch]

"If there was a proper campaign and the ‘yes’ camp had the same resources as the ‘no’ camp and was able to clearly put its message out to voters I do not think we would lose."

If you'd actually researched your subject, Jimmy (documents are now available under the 30 year rule), you'd know that we've had a referendum on Commmon Market membership (remaining in, after we joined) in 1974. All the papers at the time were pro-common-market, some even undertook to run one "positive" letter a day. The "No" campaign were by and large ignored.

It was against this background that Enoch Powell resigned the Tories and said "Vote Labour".

Even today, there is blatant BBC bias, or ignorance, and ignorance amongst the press - they'll talk about home infrmation packs, and how unpopular they are, for example, without acknowledging or understaing that EU directives started the process off.

Your problem, Jimmy, is not winning a balanced argument: it's explaining why the "yes" camp keep having to rig the odds in their favour, or better still, not offer a vote at all...

[Richard]

"Anyone who disagrees with your xenophobic anti-EU line is a troll... Open to different ideas aren't you?"

It's comments like "xenophobic" that make people think you're a troll. Most of us are opposed to the EU on the basis of liberty and democracy, not fear or hatred of foreigners.

[Ash Faulkner]

"So every single person from your generation that you have discussed the EU with supports EU withdrawal? I find that very hard to believe. Do you ever mix outside of politics circles? Your experience anyway - very different to my own. Regardless, without any polling data of young people and their attitudes towards the EU it's a pretty pointless argt for both of us."

No, I didn't say that. Not being pro-EU doesn't automatically mean being for withdrawal. Most are indifferent, and the few that aren't, are anti.

And yes, I mix in very wide circles :P

Indeed, our particular experiences aren't much to go by. But that is a considerable climb down from your previous suggestion that your experience is representative of national/generational opinion ;)

[Andrew Woodman]

'Anyone who disagrees with your xenophobic anti-EU line'

Ah the old you hate foreigners line. That didn't take long did it. I oppose the EU on the grounds of Deomcracy, Accountabilty, Cost and Corruption. Perhaps you would like to point out my xenophobic comments Jimmy. If not, I think you should apologise and withdraw your accusation.

[Roger Helmer]

I'm grateful to Jimmy for his comments. I'm interested to hear that support for liberty, responsibility, low taxes and limited government are merely the quaint opinions of Daily Mail readers, and of no interest to the mainstream. He shows his ignorance when he quotes the simplistic lie of the pro-euro brigade, and speaks of "leaving the EU and isolating ourselves from our European allies".

I am a passionate internationalist. I spent 30 years in international businesses, including twelve years outside the EU. I believe in free trade, because Britain is a great global trading nation. I love Europe: the cooking, the culture, the countryside. But I hate the EU as a model of governance, because it is making us poorer, and less democratic, and less free. It is undermining our freedom.

Grateful as I am to Jimmy, I am much more grateful to all those who have posted such friendly comments on my appointment as Honorary Chairman of the TFA

[judith]

Please don't forget that The Freedom Association doesn't restrict its campaigns to the EU - all other threats to our liberties are opposed.
Therefore it also campaigns for free speech [ under serious threat from this government], strong defences, Parliamentary government [eg opposing the Legislative Reform Bill last year], opposes ID cards, supports democratic local government rather than regionalisation etc. All aspects of personal liberty and political freedom are covered - all vital work.

[Gospel of Enoch]

Hearty congratulations, Roger - you might even end up following your predecessor's footsteps and moving to UKIP, one day...

[Anne Fletcher]

The Freedom Association is not a party political organisation - it is cross-party and a lot of members do not belong to any party at all; they probably feel they can be more effective if they don't belong. The Association is good at drawing public attention to what is going on. They do not have to accept any party dogma. I have welcomed Roger Helmer as Chairman because he abides by his principles even if they are not in line with the party view.

[Martyn Cleasby]

Congratulations to you, Roger, from the depths of SW France. You know I have not always agreed with you on some of your stances, but I have admired the way you have stuck to your guns, come what may.
regards
Martyn Cleasby

[Don Hoyle]

Firstly, whatever Roger Helmer has got, he should bottle it - he'd make an absolute fortune!

Secondly, notwithstanding the arguments above, debate on the EU has moved on; there are no longer any grounds to justify our continued membership of the EU, whether for economic reasons (that was NEVER true, hence the catalogue of lies) or political (which is being negated daily). The question, if there is one, should be: why do we stay in?

It's all very well saying that those Conservatives who want to leave the EU should join UKIP. That's happening already. But others, like me for instance, want to give the Conservative Party a chance because, as I live in the real world (well, some of the time) I feel that the choice of government lies between Labour and Conservative. UKIP will not get a look in domestically.

UKIP is generally cross-party, probably, but not exclusively, drawing support from disaffected Conservative activists. What I can not understand is why DC has to be ostensibly so pro-EU, threatening Conservative Euro-sceptics with dire consequences for signing the BOO petition, for instance.

By injecting a good dollop of Euro-scepticism into the Conservative agenda, he could scoop out the Conservative element of UKIP into the Conservative Party. He does not have to be particularly overt as the EU, as quite correctly pointed out above, is only really studied by seriously sad political groupies such as myself.

DC's biggest problem is the non-punishment (and re-selection) of the MEPs who reneged on his request for them to leave the EPP.

This credibility gap is a massive problem for the likes of us who think it is important. But maybe the upper echelons disregard us in the hunt for new voters currently occupying the so-called soft middle ground.

For my part, I am waiting to see the results of the May locals.