The trio of problems facing Labour today

• Nigel Griffiths, Deputy Leader of the Commons, has resigned from the government over Trident, Jim Devine, PPS to the Health Minister, is expected to do the same later this week.
• Charles Clarke has fuelled infighting by urging David Miliband to stand for the Labour leadership, and deliberately not endorsing Brown.
• Sir Hayden Phillips appears to be standing firm on the principle of caps on individual donations, including those that come via trade unions.

Deputy Editor

Comments

[Ray Gillespie]

Does this remind anyone else of the Tories in the early 90s? Labour are falling apart from within, no wonder Milliband doesn't want to captain this doomed vessel!

[Tory T]

...and they are 11 points behind the Conservatives in the polls, their worst position since Maggie

...and they are going to have their activist councillor base slashed in May

... and they are demoralised

....and they are losing ground to the BNP

...and their core vote is more likely to stay at home

...and their core vote is weaker on approving their leaders than the Tories, ie, it is weaker

...and it increasingly looks like charges in cash for honours will mar Blair's departure and Gordon's accession

...and they are about to hand us another weapon by attempting to enact the Euro constitution by stealth

...and Brown's next budget will have to enact further cuts in public services to fund his profligate earlier spending

...and (see Private Eye) a Commons accounting committee may demand PFI transactions be put on the books which will explode any lingering remnants of Brown's rep for competence

...and on individual issues including the economy Labour is now beind on almost everything except, I think, terrorism

...and Labour have no answer to the WLQ when Brown beomes PM whereas we say English votes for English laws

I could go on for quite some time but I want to get a cup of tea!

[Toryboy]

While its always fun to laugh at labour when they're in trouble, we have to ensure we're seen as a credible alternative government. I'll be much happier when people say we have better policies than labour after the policy review groups come back. At the moment people dislike labour but dont really know what we stand for or what we intend to do

[Yet Another Anon]

...and they are 11 points behind the Conservatives in the polls, their worst position since Maggie
Margaret Thatcher who had lead the Conservative Party through 3 successive election victories - as I recall it was back in 1988 at a time when the Alliance had fallen apart and the new party formed couldn't agree on what it was called and were facing attacks from the continuing SDP. The Conservative Party at the time appeared to be benefiting more from the ructions of former Alliance bits, however that was before the Conservatives got into mid-term difficulties - the Labour government is having mid-term difficulties, in the 1980's at times the Conservative Party was written off many times after disastrous local election or by election results, or opinion polls - gave Peter Snow a lot to do showing computer simulations showing Norman Fowler being the only remaining Conservative MP with landslide Alliance or Labour victories which never happened - if true (and lord knows that opinion polls especially mid term ones are frequently no more reliable than tea leaves) 40% is not really that fantastic a level of support, it's slightly higher than the Conservatives have hit since 1997 but only slightly.

Tony Blair obviously is eager not just to get the successor to Trident approved at the best time costwise, but also so that his successor does not have the flak of the decision - Labour unilateralists will blame him for the decision and delude themselves into thinking that Gordon Brown would not have done it if he had been leader - of course the Liberal Democrats seem to be moving back towards the line the old Liberal Party took of favouring unilateral nuclear disarmament with Ming rejecting a decision now and favouring weakening the existing deterrent.

....and they are losing ground to the BNP
If the BNP had gained as much ground as has been claimed over the years they would be in government by now instead of merely looking forward to getting more than the 0.7% of the vote they got in the last General Election and the few dozen councillors they have who mostly don't do anything and just switch parties or stand down after a bit. The big worries for Labour are the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, and because they can take parliamentary seats off Labour then people such as KHHC, Respect and the MP for Blanaeu Gwent and the SNP and Plaid Cymru are much more of a threat. No doubt the BNP will pour money into a few constituencies at the next General Election and come well behind as in the last couple of elections - who knows? They might even get 1% of the vote nationally?

Charles Clarke simply hates Gordon Brown and despite David Miliband clearly backing Gordon Brown and declining to run for either leader or Deputy Leader (probably wanting to get himself a bit more established first), Charles Clarke is keen to find anyone that he would see as holding vaguely similar views to himself to stand against Gordon Brown.

[Deputy Editor]

I should have mentioned also, the Bishop of Motherwell saying that Labour are "devoid of Christian values".

[FREEDOM]

And you honestly think the TORIES have it sorted. On the day this is all happening you push ahead with a new tax, no matter how you dress it up, the BRITISH public still see it as another tax rise, you might as well done nothing as you have for the past ten years and you would have done better in the set of polls.

As for real polls, you cant gain votes in labour areas, even the BNP out gun you, and you only do well in existing TORY areas.

You have such a long way to go, and i feel you have peaked already.

[FREEDOM]

I notice a few BNP knockers, considering UKIP has now imploded and their ashes drift on the wind.

The BNP is the true path of future politics, when they gain more votes then TORIES,GREENS AND UKIP in by elections, it shows what really matters to the BRITISH public.

And like you have already conceded it isnt the TORIES core labour is turning to but the BNP.

[Tory T]

Must we really allow racist facist scum like the BNP to clog up ConHome..? Aren't the ukip trolls enough? My grandfather fought in the war against Nazis like this lot.

A few BNP knockers? We detest everything you stand for.

[Toryboy]

As much as we may disagree with the BNP, we shouldnt be allowed to hinder them from contriubting to debate, same goes for UKIP. If we do we become like every leftie who thinks anyone who disagrees with his view of the world is an idiot and not worthy to contribute to any rational debate

[FREEDOM]

Tory T.

What's up can't stand the truth of what i have said, people are not turning to the tories, they are turning to the BNP. as previous post conceded. You are only getting high poll numbers from previous tory voters. then again wait until the real voting takes place. but of course you wont talk about this you will just,
Attack the person and not talk policy, oh I forgot the TORIES don't have any policies yet.

[Philip]

And Labour looks decidedly old fashioned and out of touch by its adherence to outdated dogma that refuses to recognise the advantage of marriage and the traditional family for bringing up children and for being the foundation for a better society.

And Labour looks decidedely authoritarian and unpleasant in their desire to repress the law-abiding through ID cards and car-tracking technology, and through their attempts to restrict freedom of religion and conscience.

[malcolm]

Disagree Tory T.BNP trolls should have exactly the same freedom to post on this blog as trolls from any other party. I notice that FREEDOM neither has the courage to blog under his/her own name nor ever defend the BNPs socialist policies.All he/she can do is criticise the Conservative party. I wonder why?

[Editor]

If people cannot stick to the thread I will ban and delete their entries. This is not a thread about the BNP and anyone who uses this thread to promote the BNP's agenda will have their comments deleted.

[FREEDOM]

Thank you tory boy

and as a ex tory voter, why should I return my vote to you again? because I see no reason.

Like today dave would have done best to just shut up, and he still would have done well as labour take themselves apart.

I would say it is not a case of the TORIES doing well, but of the LABOUR party doing your work for you, at present you should be at 50% let alone 40% considering what they have done to this country, then again on wednesday i guess it will be TORY mps standing shoulder to shoulder with the LABOUR government over trident...so how do you expect the UK public to tell you apart.

[FREEDOM]

Malcolm,

I don't post under my real name, because of the UAF and the like who put out propaganda against the BNP but enjoy nothing more then terrorising anyone who is willing to stand up for their country.

[James Cleverly]

Let the BNP supporters talk. It is what sets us apart from them and the more they talk the more people will see what a clueless bunch they are.

[Scott]

You're despicable. How you can think you're standing up for your country, I'll never understand. The Glorious Dead would fight you too, and don't you forget it.

[Scott]

That was to Freedom, incidentally. (What a charmlessly ironic name).

[FREEDOM]

Question then. the last time I voted conservative was in 1992 for Kenneth Clarke, who since has shared a platform with many pro european labourites wishing to sell out,the UK to Europe.

1997 helped and canvassed for the Refferendum party, after the Conservative party would not allow one recommendation from the party and the country which was a refferendum on europe. You didn't even have to say which way you was going to vote, so that would have held the party together, but you could allow the people to decide, because it been nearly 20 years since the last vote and much had changed. that party gained a million votes, which could have gone to the conservative party, and if not had stopped NEW labour had cut there majority sharply.

into 2000 help the UKIP due to the pro european leaning of the conservative party. but the UKIP party now imploded and I have since gone to the BNP. we have a mass migration problem so great we now have the shelfs of asda swelling with produce for the immigrants, jobs non existant and minimum wage deals for all jobs no matter what skill level.

So what are you willing to do? what policies? are you going to bring forward to re assure the BRITISH public that their TAX money isnt funding a new slave trade of flooding immigration from eastern europe, and tackling political correctness which almost makes it illigal to be white.

Awaiting your responses and I hope you dont degenerate into just calling me names for my political beliefs and not answering the questions.

[Yet Another Anon]

then again on wednesday i guess it will be TORY mps standing shoulder to shoulder with the LABOUR government over trident
Most Conservative MP's support a replacement for Trident, so it would be perverse and hypocritical for them to vote otherwise.

[David Belchamber]

Toryboy @ 13.58:
"At the moment people dislike labour but dont really know what we stand for or what we intend to do".
To which one could add: "nor do we have any idea whether we could (or would) do it any better".

[FREEDOM]

Yet another anon,

I am sure it wont stop them from trying to find a reason not to.

All I can see happening is the public will see the opposing labour mps and lib dems as the goodies, and the TORIES yet again left in a no win situation, if you vote with your bad. if you vote against your oppertunist.

This is where you need strong leadership.

Still awaiting answers to my previous questions. I notice the insults appeared in moments, the answers well, still waiting.

[ToMTom]

My grandfather fought in the war against Nazis like this lot.

Really ? Was he in the Red Army because you seem to assume that level of ideological uniformity that only political commissars could instill.

The Nazis get rather tedious - didn't they teach you any other history - or was it simply wallowing in propaganda ?

[Yet Another Anon]

All I can see happening is the public will see the opposing labour mps and lib dems as the goodies, and the TORIES yet again left in a no win situation, if you vote with your bad. if you vote against your oppertunist.
Whatever the public think, MP's have to what in what they think is the National Security interest of the UK. It is not appropriate to play politics with defence policy, opportunistic voting is also something likely to be reciprocated - David Cameron and Michael Ashcroft seem to be working along the lines that they should prepare for a Hung Parliament or small majority, but possibly a minority government and if that was the case then he would have to rely on the votes of opposition MP's at times, at that point it might be Labour and the Liberal Democrats voting for a Conservative government bill where otherwise it would fail - otherwise what you could end up with is a prolonged spell of chaos.

If Russia under a future leader or a change of policy, or China, or France, or the USA or a number of other countries decide at some point to launch an attack on the UK and Trident doesn't meet the needs of the day then the UK is the loser.

[Jack Stone]

What I find sad about this site is the toleration of racism and racists. Anyone who comes on posting BNP racist propaganda or support for them should be banned.
There should be no tolerance of this evil at all and I am afraid those that do should know better

[FREEDOM]

Yet Another Anon

All I can see for the future is a prolonged spell of chaos.

We are constantly told that the threat in the future is from terrorists not countries direct. So how would trident stop 9/11 scenarios.

If the world does ever go to war on a world wide scale again, and god help it don't, A missle defence system would not stop the likes of China or Iran, who think nothing of their own people so a threat of being nuked would not stop them nuking us as well.

Plus where is any shot down missle going to land.

I think we need to stop wasting money on wars and think of education and hospitals. why think of ways of killing each other why not think of ways of bettering each other.

and as for everyone else, still waiting for those answers.

[FREEDOM]

Jack Stone I have not put down one bit of manifesto or policy, I have stated facts and asked questions, I have willingly asked as an ex conservative voter give me good reason why not to vote BNP and to vote conservative.

I think the mind set is such that even to print those three letters simply switches on some sort of primevil instinct within some people to stop debating and simply throw insults.

So why not debate, discuss and answer the questions, I have been civil even in the face of disparaging posts.

You cant just stick your fingers in your ears and hope it will all go away, at some point you will be asked what your policies are and you will be questioned by the public.

[James Sproule]

Am I the only one who feels FREEDOM is proof positive of the great saying from The West Wing: A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

[Daniel VA]

"Labour are falling apart from within, no wonder Milliband doesn't want to captain this doomed vessel!"

Yes, it's often occurred to me that David Miliband's reluctance to stand against Gordon Brown has little to do with supporting the Chancellor's leadership ambitions and a lot more to do with calculating that his own ambitions will be much better served by waiting until 2009/2010 and what should prove to be a disappointing election result for Labour.

As the only remaining credible potential contender to Brown from the right, Miliband's decision to wait must be deeply frustrating for Charles Clarke, Alan Milburn, Stephen Byers, John Hutton and Frank Field who are all desperate to see Brown stopped (or badly damaged) but realise they don't have the support to do it.

[Sean Fear]

"No doubt the BNP will pour money into a few constituencies at the next General Election and come well behind as in the last couple of elections - who knows? They might even get 1% of the vote nationally?"

I think Labour are are in rather more difficulty than that in relation to the BNP, although I agree the main threats are still Conservatives and Lib Dems.

"the 1980's at times the Conservative Party was written off many times after disastrous local election or by election results, or opinion polls "

In fact, most rounds of local elections were actually fairly good for the Conservatives between 1979 and 1990. The Conservatives still had well over 9,000 councillors in 1989, compared to 6,000 or so for Labour now (probably dropping to nearly 5,000 on May 3rd). Usually, local elections during the eighties suggested that the Conservatives had very little to worry about.

[FREEDOM]

James,

Having discussed Trident with anon, I would suggest it isnt a one trick pony discussion, But I am wondering if anyone will tackle the question of policy or give a good and solid reason for voting conservative.

I see it is quick to post disparaging posts but not constructive ones, does this show the lack of conservative want or need to win back the BRITISH public, As they believe they will get voted back in by default.

[Editor]

Time for this thread to close!