Both opposition leaders focus on Trident at PMQs

David Cameron used his first four questions to make the case for, and urge Blair to make the case for,  Trident. Blair agreed with his statement that "in a dangerous and uncertain world, unilateral nuclear disarmament has never been the answer". Cameron's line of questioning had echoes of the education reforms, with Cameron making much of the fact that the vote would go through due to Conservative votes - so Blair didn't have to appease Labour rebels.

He asked Blair specifically to reiterate that the replacement proposals wouldn't breach non-proliferation treaty obligations as the number of missiles was going to be reduced (as it did with previous Labour and Conservative governments), that replacing Trident was in the national interest, and that tonight's vote would be the final vote.

As usual, there was a big cheer for Ming Campbell and a lot of chatter whilst he was talking. He said that our nuclear threat comes from other countries getting weapons, and asked what role the government would take in a 2010 conference on nuclear weapons. He said Blair should commit to reducing the number of missiles now to put the government in a stronger position for said conference. Blair said there were already commitments of that nature, and came back with a good line after Ming had used his two questions. He recalled Ming saying a few days ago that he would not sit on the fence - great laughter in the House - and asserted that that is precisely what he was doing on the Trident issue.

Julian Lewis, the Shadow Defence Secretary, made the case for Trident on ToryDiary yesterday.

Cameron had quite a technical debate with Blair during his last couple of questions, regarding the nature of the military facilities at Birmingham's Sellyoak hospital. Cameron was calling for a dedicated military facility where wounded soldiers are surrounded by their comrades, rather than merely a military managed facility. Blair said the previous Conservative government had rightly phased out military hospitals.

Deputy Editor

Comments

[TimberWolf]

Looks like in the Trident debate vote it will be a case of 'Vote Conservative Get Labour'.

[MagicAldo]

or . . . ."Vote Labour Get Conservative"

[Phil Whittington]

We're doing exactly the right thing here.

The majority of the sensible (i.e. "engagable with") opinion against Trident centres around a line like "Yes, we needed nukes during the cold war, but now the threat comes from small terrorist cells rather than rogue nation states"

That is indeed now a threat we face, but it is an additional one. The corollary of what the Lib Dems say is that there is a finite amount of risk and that if the threat from small militias increases, then nations must pose less be less threatening.

I almost have more respect for out-and-out nuclear abolitionists who hold to their position irrespective of age and global politics.

But as the Telegraph leader brilliantly points out today, there are still nations who could be dangerous to us in the future and we cannot predict what the world will look like by 2050.

By stressing to Blair that he does not have to compromise with his own wets we secure better defence of the realm and cause the PM some problems within his own party.

Who could turn such an opportunity down?

[John Dowson]

Or how about... 'Vote Trident Get Trident'. That sounds pretty accurate. The Tory Party supports the renewal of Trident, so will vote for the renewal of Trident.

[Jon White]

Blair agreed with his statement that "in a dangerous and uncertain world, unilateral nuclear disarmament has never been the answer".

But wasn't Blair a member of CND? Did he not stand as a Labour Candidate in High Wycombe on Michael Foot's unilateral disarmenent manifesto? Has he had a road to damascus Conversion? I think we should be told, or at least I would have hoped that Cameron would have challenged him on this.

[malcolm]

Been challenged many times before Jon, he always replies that he's changed his mind which is a fair enough answer if I suspect untrue. I doubt that he ever believed in unilateral nuclear disarmament but of course he would have had great difficulty saying so in 1983 and then being adopted as a candidate.So he lied. Is that such a suprise?

[sjm]

Indeed in the same manifesto, he claimed that he wanted the UK out of the EU. He's had a big change of mind there, too.

[TomTom]

Blair is deranged. Is he trying to destroy his party when he leaves by stoking the Unilaterialist fires ?

NO British Government has ever given a vote on nuclear weapons. It was Clement Attlee who built the British Atom Bomb and made it public through a planted question in the Commons. The Conservatives built the H-Bomb and Macmillan negotiated the Poseidon/Polaris/Trident agreement which reversed some of the limitations of the McMahon Act 1946.

Blair is bonkers. We should be like the French and just order the boats. DCN has its order book and BAE and Barrow must wait for the Labour and LibDem Parties to strut and posture

[matt wright]

The primary duty of Govt is to defend its citizens. We cannot un-invent the nuclear bomb anymore than we can un-invent the machine gun. In an uncertain and ever dangerous world we must ensure we have the latest equipment. We as a party cannot play games here, we are right to support an upto date Trident system,

Matt

[TomTom]

Well that vote has done the Conservatives a lot of good by showing Labour in its 1983 colours with LibDems showing why national defence cannot be left to them.

I hope Labour doesn't think it will be touting for votes in Barrow or Portsmouth or Derby with unilateralist candidates....there are real jobs at Rolls-Royce, Barrow and BAE dependent on this issue being resolved quickly - and thanks to Tory support Blair has been extracted from a mess of his own making.

I wonder if Blair is trying to explode the Labour Party before he goes....apres moi le deluge

[comstock]

88 rebels. The govt could and should have been defeated easily.

Shame on you Mr Cameron......

TomTom if this was 1983, I can see why you would support the renewal of Trident. But it isn't and I don't.

List of the Labour rebels here http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6452315.stm

Did any Tories join them?

[malcolm]

Hopefully not Comstock.Hopefully the Tories were motivated by the welfare of the country and not shameless opportunism. That's best left to Ming and his merry bunch of nobodies.

[comstock]

I hope Labour doesn't think it will be touting for votes in Barrow or Portsmouth or Derby with unilateralist candidates....there are real jobs at Rolls-Royce, Barrow and BAE dependent on this issue being resolved quickly

Since when has it been Tory policy to spend taxpayers money creating or maintaining jobs? The last time they were in, they certainly didn't worry about the real jobs in coal mining, or steel or whatever.

I was talking to a local CND activist the other week and she claimed Trident is only a tiny part of Rolls Royce in Derby. Now obv. she would say that (although comparing the size of the sites I would guess it is true), but if we are going to spend money to create jobs, there are much better things to spend money on than WMD.

[matt wright]

Given that we need to defend ourselves which is the primary objective, then it is also the case that this enables our manufacturing industry to keep innovating with new technology. This benefits most businesses, whether military or not. Bae and Roll Royce gain from new technologies in their civilian markets as do their suppliers and so on,

Matt

[Opinicus]

Regardless of the level of world terrorism, we never know what threats there may be to UK interests over the next 50 years. We now have a tiny military. If we don't have Trident 2, we had better hope our interests are 100% aligned to those of the USA.

The technology will be important to our remaining manufacturing base too.

[Scotty]

Comstock, I think the tories had one MP who voted against the whip and at least one abstention. Ken Clarke mentioned on the Daily Politics that there were a couple of MP's wavering, he implied they were worried that our troops would continue to suffer shortages if Labour did not increase Defence spending to off set the cost of trident.

[Yet Another Anon]

But as the Telegraph leader brilliantly points out today, there are still nations who could be dangerous to us in the future and we cannot predict what the world will look like by 2050.
Things can change very quickly and a friendly state now could very quickly turn hostile.

I am not a unilateralist, I am not a multilaterist - the only security is strong defence. Personally I don't see the point in agreements on nuclear weapons, there is no merit in reducing the number of missiles or warheads, including the numbers available on merit - the UK is walking into a strait jacket of a token deterrent, really there are far too few warheads, missiles and submarines to launch them from. There have even been times when the submarine on standby has been out of touch with the authorities, the capacity to destroy the enemy is a great leveller, a large country's leaders might not care about the loss of a couple of cities but if their entire country and population is wiped out then they have nothing left to govern even if somehow they survive in a far down bunker.

[ToMTom]

Oh Comstock so old-fashioned. Talking with CND...well if you are at a loose end, but why ?

As for Rolls-Royce Derby the reactor-facility was completely secret until only a few years ago, and noone knew it was there.

The simple fact is that it is technology with the major engineering company left in Britain; these reactors are necesary for the aircraft carriers and training and recruiting nuclear-engineering graduates is hard with tuition fees simply because these engineers don't like unemployment.

We need nuclear-engineers more than we need lawyers from our universities.

Since when has it been Tory policy to spend taxpayers money creating or maintaining jobs?

Oh dear I do hope that isn't read too widely. It is of course any government's role to ensure national defence and not to jeopardise employment by being tardy with payments (DEFRA) or stupid with contracts (long list) and to ensure high levels of employment throughout the country.

If the Conservatives cannot do this, other parties can, and have spent 10 years doing so. As they say Comstock If you can't stand the heat keep out of the kitchen

[comstock]

Oh Comstock so old-fashioned. Talking with CND...
I thought the Tory party stood for old fashioned values, TomTom :D........
Seriously I don't speak for CND (or indeed anyone but me) but I guess they would say they would love to be considered old fashioned-but it's the politicians who are old fashioned thinking they are still fighting the cold war..........

As for Rolls-Royce Derby the reactor-facility was completely secret until only a few years ago, and noone knew it was there

Worst kept secret in town. Everyone round here knew.

Oh dear I do hope that (my remark on Trident and jobs) isn't read too widely

Well I do! I think it was a perfectly valid point. The 'protecting jobs' thing is a total smokescreen. If our crime rate suddenly fell to zero (if only!), would the government sponsor criminals to keep the police in jobs?

[TimberWolf]

That is three times the CONservatives have rescued the Labour Government. Is there a hidden agenda here for laying the foundations for a Grand Coalition?

[Scotty]

"Is there a hidden agenda here for laying the foundations for a Grand Coalition?"
No, but there is a strategy of supporting the government on issues the Conservative party agree with, and it also helps underline the divisions within the Labour party at the same time....

[TimberWolf]

It also helps underline the similarities between Labour and the Conservatives.

[Scotty]

"It also helps underline the similarities between Labour and the Conservatives."
A vote on a major issue regarding the future of our national security saw members of both parties going through the same lobby.
The only similarity between Labour and the Conservatives is the fact that they are the only two parties which can realistically form a government.
Last night showed that the Conservatives were united on the common goal of our future national security where as Labour were facing the 2nd largest rebellion in their 10 years as a government which highlighted the difference between the two parties on this issue.

[malcolm]

And of course Scotty the Lib Dems didn't have the guts to oppose Trident on principle so they came up with the unprincipled and opportunistic idea of putting off a decision for 7 years. The fact that that would be far too late to build a replacement for the current Trident was not seen as important to them. I thought Ming (if not some of his colleagues) was better than that, I was wrong.

[George Hinton]

One gets a sense of deja vue on this debate, that goes back to the 20's and 30's and the refusal to spend money on defense that was a disaster for us in 1939/40.
If we do not have our nuclear deterrent, then on whom do we rely, the US, France, Russia, China or someone else? With North Korea and Iran intent on having the bomb, India and Pakistan already nuclear along with Israel, i don't see the NPT being very effective.
As usual short sighted minds in stunted left wing dogma strait jackets.

[Scotty]

"If we do not have our nuclear deterrent, then on whom do we rely, the US, France, Russia, China or someone else?"
I agree with your main argument but I do have two concerns. I wish that we would be brave enough to have a completely independent nuclear deterrent as the French do, I also want to see a real commitment to pay for it without causing further damage to our already over stretched and under financed armed forces.

[Rebecca]

Would we be able to use 'our independent nuclear deterrent' if the Americans did not want us to?

[Graeme Archer]

Timberwolf: I don't understand how voting for a Tory measure (even if moved by a Labour exec) and simultaneously highlighting the massive divisions in the Labour party could possibly be held to be an example of Cameron Conservatives merging into the Socialists.

Was interested in a couple of things when reflecting on the joy engendered by yesterday's votes:

(*) New Labour is no more. See, for example, the distressed lefty chic that arranged itself outside parliament girning it's way through "give peace a chance" or some such drivel. Annie Lennox! "The Former Model" Jade Jagger! See, further, comstock's complete inability to understand why nearly all Tories wouldn't think twice about the importance of maintaining an independent deterent. They just don't get it. It's not a thing that left wingers can reason about - I honestly thought they had probably changed their minds on this issue since 1983 but clearly they just chose not to talk about it since then (now what does that remind me of? :-0)).

(*) Labour PPCs are gonna have a lot of fun at the next election, aren't they, when they're asked "Do you support the Tory defence policy, or those of the majority of Labour MPs in the last house?". With skillful handling could be a lovely campaign.

[Yet Another Anon]

Worst kept secret in town. Everyone round here knew.
Like a early warning radar station in Fife near where I then lived (the radar station closed about 15 years ago), it had extensive grounds and an elaborate gateway - apparently people passing by not realising it was supposed to be an official secret frequently liked to have their picture taken in the gateway with the added attraction being that it wasn't marked on the map. Everyone in the area and the Warsaw Pact of course knew it was there, my father who was a postman once delivered a letter there.

[TimberWolf]

How much will the renewal of Trident cost? 20 Billion Pounds? 30 Billion Pounds? Those are the sort of figures being quoted now. But look at how the cost of the Millennium Dome soared, and how the cost of the Olympic Games is already climbing. Or how many millions Blue Streak (remember that Tory fiasco?) cost in the end. You can forget all your dreams of Tax Cuts.

[William Norton]

Timberwolf: Out of mild interest, which Timberwolf are you? The Tree Killer, the pet food or the children's book?

[TimberWolf]

None of them. Keep probing.

[Rebecca]

TimberWolf - I thought you were the Tree Killer, the lopsided Tory Tree that is, the one chosen after the Torch was torched.