Patrick Mercer forced to quit over race remarks

Now outgoing shadow homeland security minister Patrick Mercer has issued the following statement after he had appeared to downplay the significance of racist abuse in the armed forces and had said that some ethnic minority soldiers used the excuse of racism as cover for their inadequacies:

"The offence I have obviously caused is deeply regretted. I had the privilege to command soldiers from across the East Midlands of whom many came from racial minorities. It was a matter of great pride to me that racial minorities prospered inside the unit, and, indeed at one stage all of my Company Sergeant Majors were black.  What I have said is clearly misjudged and I can only apologise if I have embarrassed in anyway those fine men whom I commanded. I have no hesitation in resigning my front-bench appointment."

David Cameron said the following:

“The comments made by Patrick Mercer are completely unacceptable and I regret that they were made. We should not tolerate racism in the Army or in any walk of life. Patrick Mercer is no longer a Shadow Minister.”

The two most explosive quotes below come within an interview for Times Online:

"I came across a lot of ethnic minority soldiers who were idle and useless, but who used racism as cover for their misdemeanours.  I remember one guy from St Anne's (Nottingham) who was constantly absent and who had a lot of girlfriends. When he came back one day I asked him why, and he would say: 'I was racially abused'. And we'd say: 'No you weren't, you were off with your girlfriends again'."

"I had five company sergeant majors who were all black. They were without exception UK-born, Nottingham-born men who were English - as English as you and me... They prospered inside my regiment, but if you'd said to them: 'Have you ever been called a nigger?' they would have said: 'Yes'. But equally, a chap with red hair, for example, would also get a hard time - a far harder time than a black man, in fact.  But that's the way it is in the Army. If someone is slow on the assault course, you'd get people shouting: 'Come on you fat bastard, come on you ginger bastard, come on you black bastard'."

Comments

[Alan Simpson]

How can we try and convince the electorate that we are a changing party if we still have idiots such as this in the ranks?

[Sam Ellis]

Patrick Mercer is a fantastic Member of Parliament and the people of Newark and Retford are lucky to have him

[William Norton]

Admiral Beatty at the Battle of Jutland: There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today.

[fan]

has cameron announced a successor?

I think David Jones would be great - he's a member of the Party's Homeland Security team, and totally switched on.

what do others think?

[malcolm]

How many more times are our spokesmen going to say stupid things like this.Having said that he could and should have been given the opportunity to apologise and retract rather than be instantly dismissed.

[Peter Hatchet]

Alan 16:04

Quite.

This is worthy of a sacking - unlike David Mundell.

In fact, it's a borderline "Howard Flight" penalty.

You can see somewhere there is some of point he's making but, Christ, he did he do this badly.

Comments on issues such as these require extreme caution and very careful thought and consideraiton.

[TomTom]

Mercer is credible - at least he wore a uniform and did his duty....St Anne's is where Nottinghamsire police patrol with submachine guns to keep the drug gangs in order.

Mercer is a real loss to the Conservative Front Bench

[Roddy Piper]

I don't understand why Central Office originally said his comments were a personal matter and then a couple of hours later they suddenly decided the comments are not acceptable and sacked him?

[Essex Boy]

What Mercer said was wrong only insofar as politicians have to be politically correct in what they say and do, and as a professional politician he should engage brain before opening gob.

But. What he said is correct and it is a sad reflection that the truth now comes second to PC.

That mocking laughter you can hear in the background comes from the ghosts of those who have always sought to ban free speech.

[Derek]

It is no longer possible to tell it as it is, unless it is wrapped up in obscure language.

[Richard]

Very badly phrased. It's fine to make the point that some people might be making false accusations of racism to benefit themselves but the way he did it just comes across as clumsy and offensive.

[Martin Wright]

Mercer was just being honest about life as it is in the armed forces (and in the wider public service), but it was extremely tactless of him to mention any downside to the multicultural status quo.

David Cameron has shown his ruthless side:it was unforgivable of Mercer to embarass the party by telling the truth.

In a way it would be good if politicians could discuss issues in a "warts and all" way, but that just isn't possible in these conformist times where sentiment rather than analysis rules.

[Editor]

I don't think these comments were racist. They were certainly foolish.

[mason]

Reinstate Mercer! lets start a campaign.

PC gone MAD.

BBC biased.

[hows that racist?]

What is it he said that is "racist"?

You dolts in Westminster seem to have no comprehension of normal conversation.

He is obviously right that black / gingers are going to be called "black/ginger bastard". Is this really news to you lot?!

Mercer has made a fool of himself by resigning instead of issuing a one sentence statement reading: "Which quotes precisely are racist, as opposed to discussing racism?"

Get out of London more chaps...

[Chris Palmer]

Explosive? Hardly.

[TomTom]

Mercer

Other viewpoints

[thatcherite]

I agree with the editor but would bet that Prince Harry (rightly) is not called a "ginger bastard".

[hows that racist?]

ps. it reinforces the feeling that in modern politics, you can be totally incompetent and totally dishonest and no harm will come to you.

if you make one common sense remark, you are screwed.

next stop headline: "soldier sacked for saying 'i want to kill the enemy' - MPs call his comments outrageous and say they have no place in the modern army..."

[Liam Murray]

'How's that racist?' asks exactly what's been said that's 'racist'. OK - straight answer.

"I came across a lot of ethnic minority soldiers who were idle and useless" - that's racism because of the casual implication that their attitude is a consequence of their race. It may not have been his intention to imply that but he's resonsible for more than just his private intentions when he speaks - he has a responsibility to consider how his remarks could be used or interpreted. As an intelligent man he simply must have known the reaction his remarks would provoke but he uttered them nonetheless. Therefore his remarks can be reasonably contstrued as racist.

Racism is about more than a political belief in the superiority of one race over another - it's about tone, perception and sensitivity also. Mercer is an idiot and an embarassment to Conservatism....

[Essex Boy]

And what's really going to hurt is watching the BBC make as much political capital as they can out of this.

[Jack Stone]

Patrick Mercer is no loss at all to the front bench if he is stupid enougth to say such thoughtless and ill judged comments.
Anyone who makes comments like this that can be judged to be racist and more than that plays down racism as no business not only being on the front bench but being in the party.
David Cameron as made a good start. I hope his local party will do the decent thing and deselect him and show that the party will not tolerate this sort of thing.

[Denis Cooper]

A pathetic, craven surrender to the enemies of free speech. Does anybody think sacking a good frontbencher for this will help the Tory party get into government?

[xenon]

His comments were certainly suicidally idiotic, and I think that it is right that he is no longer on the front bench. Having said that I do find the knee-jerk responses of some of our more ludicrous opponents to be way wide of the mark. The fact it has been dealt with rapidly will kill the story and in a few months time he can be rehabilitated.

[Sean Fear]

"that's racism because of the casual implication that their attitude is a consequence of their race"

The implication is that they used accusations of a racism to get away with bad performance.

"Racism is about more than a political belief in the superiority of one race over another - it's about tone, perception and sensitivity also. "

No it isn't. It's about hating or despising people on the ground of their ethnic origin. Our society beats itself up completely unnecessarily about "tone, perception, and sensitivity."

[Sean Fear]

" I hope his local party will do the decent thing and deselect him"

Even by your standards, that's a particularly moronic comment.

[hows that racist?]

Murray - so if people may call you racist, "Therefore his remarks can be reasonably contstrued as racist." do you realy believe that?! utterly fatuous logic you dolt.

"I came across a lot of ethnic minority soldiers who were idle and useless."

That statement in itself is not racist any more than a prison governor who said, "I come across a lot of ethnic minority prisoners who are idle and useless."

Unless you are claiming that Mercer didnt "come across" such and he has made this up - in which case he IS racist. But not because of the actual words.

Stone - a mong like you who doesn't know the difference between "there" and "their" should go to nightschool and keep his trap shut.

There is a difference between being racist and having bad judgement. Mercer has frequently displayed bad judgement but he is not racist (at least not inthe public quotes.)

If you lot are going to jump every time the BBC shrieks, you will remain an utter joke of a Party that gets smashed every few years cos the public can see you are weak and stupid.

[Martin Wright]

Guardian headline: Tory MP sacked over 'black bastard' comments. This is a complete travesty of Patrick Mercer's attitude but unfortunately mud sticks.

Coming from an Army family myself, I recognise the good qualities in some one like Patrick Mercer including honesty and courage. But Army life does not equip you well for life as a front bench spokesman, where being an "honest John" type will soon lead to trouble.

[Michael McGowan]

Sean Fear's definition of racism is quite correct and Liam Murray's comments about tone, sensitivity and perception are lifted straight from the Ken Livingstone lexicon of agitprop. If I follow Liam correctly, then MPs such as Paul Goodman and Michael Gove should also be disciplined because of comments they have made about extremism in the Muslim community. Those comments are undoubtedly perceived by some Muslims as an insensitive attack on Islam.

[FREEDOM]

What a load of bunkum, He stated the truth, the MP had the balls to say that many ethnic minorities when challenged over their work. Come up with the same old line which can not be challenged. "Is it because I am ............. ? "

You are run ragged by the political correct brigade and thank you for the recruitment drive which will drive the GOOD BRITISH people flocking to the BNP to get some sense back into politics.

http://freedom74.proboards83.com/

[seamus donovan]

hows that racist? let me explain.

yes, he was explaining the state of affairs in the army, but there was no hint of remorse, or regret, that such words were used. instead, there is an attitude that 'that's life, get on with it'. if he had made it clear he was disgusted with the use of such derogatory remarks, then i am sure he would still be in his job.

that is attitude is relaxed about it all is highlighted by two examples.
1- his reaction to the grievances of the soldier from st.ann's, nottingham. outright dismissal of the fact that he had suffered racist abuse on the one hand, where on the other he admits that this the norm
2- in an unreported quote on this website when he dismissed the demand of ethnic minority soldiers to a union to defend against racism as 'utter rot'. again, how can he on the one hand say use of terms such as 'nigger' are rife, but on the other think a framework to defend against racist abuse is unnecessary. obviously, in his mind, he does not think the use of such terms are racist.

now, 'hows that racist?'- do you think these terms are racist?

[Denis Cooper]

Although he may not have not noticed the worm turning, most of the public are now openly fed up with the kind of PC rubbish "Jack Stone" has just spouted.

[xenon]

FREEDOM, this will send precisely no-one flocking to the BBC because very few people will have heard of Patrick Mercer before today and tomorrow nobody will remember him. It is a media driven story, the only people who care are opponents of the conservative party and people with a grudge against modern society. This story is going nowhere!

[xenon]

Oops for BBC read BNP... eek trying to do three things at once is never a good idea!

[Tony]

Sorry, but I believe it was right to sack Mercer. My Regimental Sergeant Major in the TA was black. I have no doubt he probably experienced racist abuse as he rose from private in the regulars. But it does not mean it should be tolerated. He should not have had to put up with it.

A man who has gone into the service of the Crown, possibly risking his life for this country, deserves more than to be told by Patrick Mercer, a former officer, that if he is belittled in a racist manner that ‘that’s just the way it is’. Cameron has passed an integrity test today in dealing with this matter quickly and effectively.

I do not believe Mercer himself is racist, but I feel his comments do show an incredible lack of judgment and more importantly, a devil may care attitude to the treatment some black soldiers have to put up with.

[hows that racist?]

Seamus - i cant follow your argument well cos of your appalling syntax. how am i supposed to comment on an "unreported quote" i cant even read? you should join Jack Stone at nightschool.

there is a distinction between literal meaning of words and inferences about state of mind based on "tone" etc.

lots of people dont like things that happen in organisations but also dont want idiot politicians and lawyers crawling all over them.

you, like most modern tories, seem to live in a fantasy world of bbc producer dinner parties. the tories have been unfit to govern and remain so.

mercer is an idiot but sacking him for that would require sacking 99% of tory MPs.

[FREEDOM]

Xenon,

People are already flocking to the BNP, most recent by elections show 30% vote share for them, knocking the tories into lower places. Today in garston and speke new ground for the BNP we are expected to get up to ten times as many votes as the Conservatives.

This on a day when the white people are being victimised.

the BBC and other media outlets have spent all morning describing in detail only part of the details of how a policeman aprehended a drunk and violent woman. They forgot to say or show how she was damaging cars or to say she was grabbing hold of the policemans privates and this is why he used force to stop her. Do you think she would have been conscience if he had truly hit her.

And now all tonight we will here how the minorities are being treated and looked upon in the army and work. They will wheel out one after the other of self rightous hypocrite telling us all that the white society is inherently racist and we pick upon them. When most of the time, they simply use it as a cover to get out a lot of the wrong doing which they do.

Stop beating ourselves up for a start would be a good thing. What next will we have Chris Evans on telly screaming racial abuse.

[url]http://freedom74.proboards83.com/[/url]

[xenon]

FREEDOM, what a narrow mind you have! I definately prefer living in this society with all its faults than any that you and yours would impose on us!

[Wayne Bridges]

What an idiot!

[Liam Murray]

Goodman, Gove etc. haven't been accused of racism precisely because they understand the importance of tone, perception etc. They have the intellectual depth to make their observations in a proportionate way with a sense of balance and perspective - consequenty their contributions are almost universally well recieved even by those who disagree.

If senior Conservatives continue to believe there's refuge to be had in arguing the toss over semantics (aided by contributions from readers of ConservativeHome) then we will neither achieve nor deserve power.

[Gordon Layton]

Here's the paradox: As Conservatives we want to build a society in which people can talk frankly and truthfully about issues instead of mouthing Orwellian PC mantras.

However, we're not going to turn things around unless we get into government - and that task is made more difficult by providing the BBC/Left hegemony with ammunition to smear Tories as racists and extremists.

Mercer had to go - so we can gain victory and make the world safe for people to speak their minds without fear.

And as for that utter freakoid communist Jack Stone - doesn't he realise that he's virtually the ONLY person in the Conservative Party who actually believes the PC drivel we're mouthing?

[Andrew Woodman]

Patrick Mercer is MP for Newark ian't he. Do the anagram.

[alda]

http://mattwithers.welshblogs.co.uk/2007/03/dj_culture.html

[FREEDOM]

Xenon,

And it is funny how it is always our(white) fault, and how niave you are to not admit that people will use any excuse to get out of what they have done.

As I have said, is Chris Evans bemoaning the attack on ginger people, and the reason there is a difference, is because when he is in trouble anytime he won't say to his bosses. Are you doing this because I have ginger hair? Yet the politically correct society now wets itself and blames itself for their wrong doings.

Remember Kriss Donald, white kid killed by asians just for being white, I dont remember any enquiry or it even making national news as much as when stephen lawrence died. both deaths were equally abhorant, but only one recieved infinitum response from the media, enquiries and continually used as way of questioning our racial attitudes.

We are all equal, just some are more equal then others.

[Michael McGowan]

Liam Murray seems to be wheeling the toolkit of the censor down the ages. He may think and I agree that Goodman and Gove have the intellectual depth, etc to make their comments in a proprotionate way but it is nonsense to suggest that their comments have been universally well-received.

When the borderline between racist and non-racist comment is such a highly subjective one (presumably policed by the Scribes and Pharisees of tone, perception and sensitivity such as Liam Murray), then we no longer have free speech. But then I have never been under any illusions that the Tory Party is the friend of free speech. T

Mr Murray gives away his real motivation in his last line....power, no doubt at any price in the best Tory tradition.

[Valedictoryan]

It's enough that soldiers get shot at. They shouldn't also have to put up with mindless name-calling, especially name-calling that is tacitly endorsed by higher ranks. That they do put up with name-calling doesn't make it right. Our MPs should be intelligent enough and perceptive enough to realise this, and they should be doing what they can to end it. They should most certainly not be playing it down.

I'm sure that Mr Mercer wouldn't like me calling him a white bastard or a stupid bastard. And the fact that one man is called a ginger bastard doesn't make it any less abusive to call another a black one. It speaks volumes that he appears not to have realised this. In the army Mr Mercer may have got away with overlooking prejudice, perhaps even thinking that it had a place, but I'm very glad he's been held to account in our party.

[Lord Cashcroft]

Don't you just love it when people are hoist by their own petard?

[FREEDOM]

I would say that Gordons last post proved one point, the Conservatives are desperate for power at any cost.

And god forbid you hurt the political correct. why should 5% of the country tell what 95% of the country should do ?

[honestyoverspin]

If you people dont get the joke yet its up to you.

The army shoot people dead as well, how PC is that??

If you cannot stand up for an honest opinion, no matter how much you disagree with it you will lose the debate. NuLab will run rings round you if you fight it on the mythical ground of political correctness.

The public do not think in the same way as the vacuous MP's hiding behind the "PC" agenda. No member of the forces would be surprised by being 'abused' if thats your take on the use of a word to describe the ethnic/geographical background of a recruit. Nobody lives in the world MP's think exists outside.

Anyone think its a coincidence that the day before that the BBC ran a story about commonwealth troops joining a union because of racisim??? Troops joining a union! Utterly insane.

The respect and trust that exists between a white and black member of any army unit puts to shame the disrespectful superficialality of modern PC nehaviour.

The turnout will be lower next GE if you carry on down this road. The public wholeheartedly reject the NuLab, rights obsessed, gay adoption nonsense you are so worried about.

Respect is earned, not a right, and if you cannot tell the difference then the NuLab assault on honesty and respect has more successful than we know.

There is no place for discrimination of any kind in a modern world but if you are not strong enough to stand by your statements then you will always fall foul of the thought police.

A black member of Mr Mercers unit states categorically that he is not a racist , yet still had to say he was promoted by Mercer to give himself credibility. That is the idiocy of modern PC society.

If you want a better example listen to Mathew Parris and his reaction to a stupid reporter who focussed on the distasteful stereotypical characters played by John Inman.

Honesty and rationality prove more respectful ultimately than the duplicity of political correctness.

[xenon]

People will use any excuse in the same way that they will recycle facile arguments, and construct an argument on selective evidence, and allow their prejudice to triumph over a rational regard of the facts.

[TomTom]

Anyone who makes comments like this that can be judged to be racist

One would have thought with your advancing years Jack Stone you might stop acting like a pubescent schoolboy....it is only because we know you say such stupid things for effect that we tolerate such repeated stupidity -

[Liam Murray]

On Gove & Goodman, by universally well-received I don't mean univerally agreed with. There were no (to my knowledge) accusations of racism and no extreme reactions - their point was understood, accepted by some and politely contested by others. The fact that achieving similar outcome was beyond the wit of Mercer speaks volume about him and simply confirms is unsuitability for a front bench role.

The borderline between racism and non-racism IS subjective but there's a broad public consensus on where that line is drawn. Is it too much to ask front-bench, high profile politicians to be mindful of that consensus and speak accordingly.

[Anthony Back]

Since the Conservative party appears to have become a slave to political correctness and after watching Cameron debase himself to appease the ethnic-discrimination lobby then I for one will never vote Conservative as long as that creature is in charge.

Anthony Back

[Manners Maketh Man]

"One would have thought with your advancing years Jack Stone you might stop acting like a pubescent schoolboy....it is only because we know you say such stupid things for effect that we tolerate such repeated stupidity"

TomTom - Why are you such an offensive prat?

[Arthurian Legend]

Has David Cameron asserted that the events and conversations recounted by Mercer were fabricated?

If they were genuine, does this mean that the Conservative leader doesn't think the public should know what goes on inside the army?

[Andrew Fenton]

"Has David Cameron asserted that the events and conversations recounted by Mercer were fabricated? "

Not necessarily fabricated, but Patrick Patrick Mercer's versions of what he said don't seem to add up. His original version said "lots" of minority soldiers used racism as an excuse, but in a radio interview just now he admitted he'd only actually come across two instances of this.

Have to wonder why he would say the former, given the reality of the latter.

[Michael McGowan]

Liam Murray, Sean Fear defined quite adequately what racism is...objectively. Your assertion that the definition is subjective is just that: an assertion and an incorrect one at that. It is of course a very popular assertion in Cultural Marxist circles (i.e. the so-called "broad public consensus" to which you refer). In those circles, the word "racist" is givena highly elastic definition as a way of closing down legitimate debate and imposing self-censorship on dissenters. You seem to subscribe to this way of thinking which comes as no surprise. The Conservative Party's liberal credentials are skin-deep and always have been.

[Gordon Layton]

FREEDOM says: "why should 5% of the country tell what 95% of the country should do ?"

Because they can, dear FREEDOM. I have a strategy for ending this tyranny - what's yours?

[Andrew Ian Dodge]

Cameron is standing outside Millbank and talking PC bullshit. Does this not worry anyone?

[TomTom]

TomTom - Why are you such an offensive prat?

Posted by: Manners Maketh Man | March 08, 2007 at 17:51

Oh come now Jack look in the mirror

[FREEDOM]

What is their tyranny, will we blame ourselves then, the next time one of them decides to blow themselves up and take many innocent people with them.

Why is a TORY mp condemned for racism, when what the army is doing in IRAQ under a lie, Is not a quiting offence for BLAIR.

You TORIES simply play into the hands of LABOUR and this is why people are turning away from the main three parties,

latest information from speke and garston postal votes have been counted, and the BNP is in third place and have every chance of springing a surprise result on labour/lib dems.

This is where the TORY party should be winning back voters, but the total lack of back bone, and wishy washy politics, you will never be in government again.

I forsee many years of hung parliaments, in fighting and a rise in minor party votes. Even with the chance of the first BNP mps coming from towns like DAGENHAM, then the BRITISH people will finally have someone to stand up for their rights.

[Ted]

Honestyoverspin, I believe Mercer was responding to the reports of Commonwealth soldiers trying to form a union because of their perceptions of racist treatment. In his interview Mercer was admirably honest but what he was honest about was not admirable.

Yesterday the asian wife of a white soldier was presented with his VC - should their children be forced to accept being called yellow b*******s if they joined up? Sgt Beharry the previous recipient of the VC was a black Commonwealt soldier - did he have to put up with deragatory remarks because of his colour? Why should that be acceptable as normal army behaviour

It is true that the Armed Services should not be and cannot be judged entirely according to the standards of civilian life. They bring together a very mixed group of people and have to train them to accept a degree of discipline and performance beyond that most of us will accept. Howver as shown by the suicides at Deepcut the acceptance of certain behaviour (bullying & taunting) can have severe consequences.

I think Mercer was right to resign and David Cameron was right to ask him to do so. Mercer displayed both a lack of common sense in his remarks and a wrongheadness in his defence of unacceptable behaviour.

Our squaddies and their officers are not saints and their uncommon bravery in difficult conditions should forgive them much. Each though is deserving of common courtesy & respect from their fellows without taunts and attacks based on the colour of their skin. Mercer's defence was of of the Army rather than those who serve. I hope the thousands of black and other commonwealth who serve get better support from today's officers.

[Bill]

I understand with the Tories' concern with perception (often at the price of substance and principle) Mercer's departure was almost inevitable. However it is a shame he has had to go because unlike almost the entire shadow cabinet he usually speaks a great deal of common sense.

PS
I wonder what Mercer was doing while Cameron was posing for the Bullingdon? I know who I'd rather spend time with and it ain't Cameron or any of his school, university or Notting Hill set mates.

[xenon]

FREEDOM, you are really excelling yourself in spite and bile aren't you.

[Liam Murray]

Michael,

We'll never agree on the generalities so let's not bore everyone else any longer.

What should have happened to Mercer today? Are you seriously saying the party's electoral prospects were best served by ignoring his remarks and defending him?

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

A sorry affair but I hope he calms down, the incident is forgotten and that he returns to the front bench in a year's time. I don't think Mercer's a racist, so I tend to agree with Sean Fear.

More ambulances?

[John Coles]

Years ago, at sea, I served with a Leading Seaman St. John. He was a tall, good looking fellow - and black.
One night we had to launch the Seaboat and St. John, unusually, screwed it up, letting go the headrope too early. The mess was retrieved and the Bosun, ready to bollock St. John, later asked him why the f*****ng hell he had screwed up.
St. John said: "I couldn't see my hands, sir, they're so black." The Bosun was completely deflated, St. John's stock soared and the story became ship's property.
Poor old Mercer, he knows how the Services look at these things. Trouble is, the rest of society isn't quite as mature - and what on earth does all of this say about Mr Cameron's readiness to panic?

[FREEDOM]

XENON

I am far from excited, I am fuming at the news coverage of today, and how anti - white it is.

It is near hysterical proportions and just leads us down the path of putting more chains on ourselves.

In the year we celebrate the abolishment of slavery, all parties are enthusiastic about the mass migration of eastern europeans taking jobs, benifits and homes from people already living here, ensuring it will always be a minimum wage and not a living one.

We have BRITISH companies asset stripped, jobs lost and taken to the cleaners, by foriegn companies. yet nothing is said or done.

There is so much going down the pan in this country it is impossible to catalogue it all, yet politically correct liberals, are allowed to turn in on its own devouring them with relish. It is all just a smoke screen. It is this government backed by the tories which killed more innocent foriegners for a oil war. It is the major parties which fight over the gravy boat all wanting to wallow in its riches and will say or do anything to get their trotters well and truly in.

People are not blind, we see and hear what is going on around us, and there will come a time when they will stand up and put you all in your place.

[seamus donovan]

howsthatracist? Instead of taking all your info from this website, how about looking at the interview from The Times:

"Condemning the announcement of the formation of a new trade union proposed by Marlon Clancy, a serving soldier who was recruited from the Commonwealth in 1999 and complained of several incidents where he was racially abused, the MP for Newark said: "Absolute nonsense. Complete and utter rot." "

It is not that hard to find it; just do some research and make up an opinion based on the whole story, not just selectively reported facts.

you say:
"lots of people dont like things that happen in organisations but also dont want idiot politicians and lawyers crawling all over them. "

heh? if you find racism abhorrent, as you obviously do not, then it is the duty of people to intervene. the more so in publicly funded institutions.

using your logic, it would be fine for the police to have such a relaxed culture of open racist abuse. would you be comfortable with that? if so, then there is no point even arguing with you, because you are cleary in a time-warp. go vote for the bnp or ukip.

i repeat. if mercer had shown remorse that this happened in the army, he would have kept his job.

so howsthatracist? answer these questions:
- do you regret that words such as n****r are used in the army?
- are words such as these fit for our policemen and women to use?

yes or no, easy enough

[Mr Kipling]

Gunga Din

You may talk o' gin and beer
When you're quartered safe out 'ere,
An' you're sent to penny-fights an' Aldershot it;
But when it comes to slaughter
You will do your work on water,
An' you'll lick the bloomin' boots of 'im that's got it.
Now in Injia's sunny clime,
Where I used to spend my time
A-servin' of 'Er Majesty the Queen,
Of all them blackfaced crew
The finest man I knew
Was our regimental bhisti, Gunga Din.
He was "Din! Din! Din!
You limpin' lump o' brick-dust, Gunga Din!
Hi! slippery hitherao!
Water, get it! Panee lao! [Bring water swiftly.]
You squidgy-nosed old idol, Gunga Din."

The uniform 'e wore
Was nothin' much before,
An' rather less than 'arf o' that be'ind,
For a piece o' twisty rag
An' a goatskin water-bag
Was all the field-equipment 'e could find.
When the sweatin' troop-train lay
In a sidin' through the day,
Where the 'eat would make your bloomin' eyebrows crawl,
We shouted "Harry By!" [Mr. Atkins's equivalent for "O brother."]
Till our throats were bricky-dry,
Then we wopped 'im 'cause 'e couldn't serve us all.

It was "Din! Din! Din!
You 'eathen, where the mischief 'ave you been?
You put some juldee in it [Be quick.]
Or I'll marrow you this minute [Hit you.]
If you don't fill up my helmet, Gunga Din!"

'E would dot an' carry one
Till the longest day was done;
An' 'e didn't seem to know the use o' fear.
If we charged or broke or cut,
You could bet your bloomin' nut,
'E'd be waitin' fifty paces right flank rear.
With 'is mussick on 'is back, [Water-skin.]
'E would skip with our attack,
An' watch us till the bugles made "Retire",
An' for all 'is dirty 'ide
'E was white, clear white, inside
When 'e went to tend the wounded under fire!

It was "Din! Din! Din!"
With the bullets kickin' dust-spots on the green.
When the cartridges ran out,
You could hear the front-files shout,
"Hi! ammunition-mules an' Gunga Din!"

I shan't forgit the night
When I dropped be'ind the fight
With a bullet where my belt-plate should 'a' been.
I was chokin' mad with thirst,
An' the man that spied me first
Was our good old grinnin', gruntin' Gunga Din.
'E lifted up my 'ead,
An' he plugged me where I bled,
An' 'e guv me 'arf-a-pint o' water-green:
It was crawlin' and it stunk,
But of all the drinks I've drunk,
I'm gratefullest to one from Gunga Din.

It was "Din! Din! Din!
'Ere's a beggar with a bullet through 'is spleen;
'E's chawin' up the ground,
An' 'e's kickin' all around:
For Gawd's sake git the water, Gunga Din!"

'E carried me away
To where a dooli lay,
An' a bullet come an' drilled the beggar clean.
'E put me safe inside,
An' just before 'e died,
"I 'ope you liked your drink", sez Gunga Din.
So I'll meet 'im later on
At the place where 'e is gone --
Where it's always double drill and no canteen;
'E'll be squattin' on the coals
Givin' drink to poor damned souls,
An' I'll get a swig in hell from Gunga Din!
Yes, Din! Din! Din!
You Lazarushian-leather Gunga Din!
Though I've belted you and flayed you,
By the livin' Gawd that made you,
You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

[Nick Reynolds]

"Racism is about more than a political belief in the superiority of one race over another - it's about tone, perception and sensitivity also."

Since when? Did you just make that up? And if not, where did it come from? Who gets to "decide" these definitions?

[Effie Notts]

John:
Trouble is, the rest of society isn't quite as mature - and what on earth does all of this say about Mr Cameron's readiness to panic?
I would say it speaks volumes about Cameron and his apparent immaturity and political naivety.
Mercer was talking about fact and should have held his ground.
I do not think the man is an idiot I think he was correct in what he had to say
Cameron should listen and learn, but then that is asking just a bit too much for him to take in.

[Nick Reynolds]

"And as for that utter freakoid communist Jack Stone - doesn't he realise that he's virtually the ONLY person in the Conservative Party who actually believes the PC drivel we're mouthing?"

Oh, if only that were true. Sadly, you still have much to learn about the modern Conservative Party.

[Jack Stone]

There should be a zero tolerance of racism in the party. Anyone expressing racist comments or sympathising with them should be kicked out.Not because for political reasons the party cannot afford to look like its racist but because that is the right thing to do.
I think David Cameron as acted tremendously in kicking Mercer off the front bench and I believe he as shown what an excellent leader he is quickly becoming.
It doesn`t surprise me that on this thread we have the usual people sympathising with Mr Mercer, the BNP and painting those in the ethnic minorities in a bad light. Of course ignoring the fact that a recent VC was awarded to a soldier from Grenada. I just think its sad that these comments are tolerated under the clock of free speech when the only place they deserve to be heard is the gutter where they belong.

[honestyoverspin]

Ted

Thats all well and good but we dont recognise your world. Its people like you that have allowed the PC art of saying nothing to become the norm. If you say anything that is an opinion then you will accused by someone of some kind of -ism. Until people start standing up telling the person calling for his resignation that the courts can decide and not cowering in the corner political debate is dead in the water.

12 of his peers would have laughed at the accusation......now how is that for PC madness. judged, convicted and sent down on the mythical offence of a liberals agenda.

pathetic.

Is the black guy that served for him racist as well then because he backed him up?? DOH

[TomTom]

Of course ignoring the fact that a recent VC was awarded to a soldier from Grenada.

So what ? What is so unique about that ?

Try these:

As of 1 July 1997, only ten Indian (i.e., South Asian) VC holders survived:

1. Captain Agansingh Rai, VC (Nepal)
2. Jemadar Ali Haider, VC (Pakistan)
3. Havildar Bhanbhagta Gurung, VC (Nepal)
4. Captain Bhandari Ram, VC (India)
5. Captain Gaje Ghale, VC (India)
6. Captain Ganju Lama, VC, MM, PD (India [Sikkim])
7. Havildar Lachman Gurung, VC (Nepal)
8. Captain Rambahadur Limbu, VC, MVO (Nepal) -- a November 1965 award for Borneo (lying outside the scope of these pages)
9. Lieutenent Tulbahadur Pun, VC (Nepal)
10. Subadar Major Umrao Singh, VC (India)

From 1912 to 1947, the following Indian soldiers were awarded the Victoria Cross:

1. 4050 Sepoy Khuda Dad Khan, 129th Duke of Connaught's Own Baluchis - 31 October 1914 - Hollebeke, Belgium/France
2. Jemadar Mir Dost, I.O.M., Bahadur, 55th Coke's Rifles - 26 April 1915 - Ypres, France
3. 1909 Naik Darwan Singh Negi, 1/39 Garhwal Rifles - 24 November 1914 - Festerburt, France
4. 501 L/Naik Lala, 41st Dogras - 21 January 1916 - El Orah, Mesopotamia
5. Risaldar Badlu Singh, 14th Murray's Jat Lancers - 23 September 1918 - Kh. es Samariyeh, Palestine (posthumous)
6. 2008 L/Daffadar Gobind Singh, 28th Light Cavalry - 1 February 1917 - Pozieres, France
7. 2129 Rifleman Kulbir Thapa, 2/3rd Queen Alexandra's Own Gurkha Rifles - 25/26 September 1915 - Manquisart, France
8. 1685 Rifleman Gobar Singh Negi, 2/39th Garhwal Rifles - 10 March 1915 - Neuve Chapelle, France (posthumous)
9. 1605 Naik Shah Ahmad Khan, 1/89th Punjabis - 12/13 April 1916 - Beit Ayeesa, Mesopotamia
10. 3398 Sepoy Chatta Singh, 1/9th Bhopal Infantry - 13 January 1916 - Wadi, Mesopotamia
11. 4146 Rifleman Karan Bahadur Rana, 2/3rd Gurkha Rifles - 10 April 1918 - El Kefr, Egypt
12. 1012 Sepoy Ishar Singh, 28th Punjabis - 10 April 1921 - Haidar Kach, Waziristan
13. 2/Lieutenant Premindra Singh Bhagat, Royal Bombay Sappers and Miners - 31 January/1 February 1941 - Gondar, Ethiopia
14. IO-7055 Subedar Richpal Ram, 4/6th Rajputana Rifles - 7-11 February 1941 - Keren, Eritrea, Ethiopia (posthumous)
15. 14696 Havildar Parkash Singh, 3/8th Punjab Regiment - 19 January 1943 - Donbaik, Mayu Peninsula, Burma
16. 915 Subedar Lal Bahadur Thapa, 1/2 King Edward VII's Own Gurkha Rifles - 5/6 April 1943 - Rass La Zondi, Wadi Akarit, Tunisia
17. 8638 Company Havildar Major Chhelu Ram, 4th Rajputana Rifles - 19/20 April 1943 - Djebel Garci, Tunisia (posthumous)
18. 6816 Havildar Gaje Ghale, 2/5th Royal Gurkha Rifles (Frontier Force) - 24 May 1943 - Chin Hills, Burma
19. Naik Nand Singh, The Sikh Regiment - 11/12 March 1944 - Kalaparzin Valley, Arakan, Burma
20. 11460 Jemadar Abdul Hafiz, 9th Jat Regiment - 6 April 1944 - Imphal, Assam (posthumous)
21. 2931144 Sepoy Kamal Ram, 8th Punjab Regiment - 12 May 1944 - Gari River, Italy
22. 78763 Rifleman Ganju Lama, M.M., 7th Gurkha Rifles - 12 June 1944 - Ningthoukhong, Impal, Assam
23. Naik Agan Singh Rai, 2/5th Royal Gurkha Rifles (Frontier Force) - 26 June 1944 - Bishenpur-Silchar Track, Imphal, Assam
24. IO-28467 Subadar Netra Bahadur Thapa, 2/5th Royal Gurkha Rifles (Frontier Force) - 25/26 June 1944 - Bishenpur, Imphal, Assam (posthumous)
25. 9192 Naik Yashwant Ghadge, 3/5th Maratha Light Infantry - 10 July 1944 - Citta di Castello, Italy (posthumous)
26. 10119 Rifleman Tul Bahadur Pun, 6th Gurkha Rifles - 23 June 1944 - Mogaung, Burma
27. 70690 Rifleman Sher Bahadur Thapa, 1/9th Gurkha Rifles - 18 September 1944 - San Marino, Italy (posthumous)
28. IO-46921 Subadar Ram Sarup Singh, 1st Punjab Regiment - 25 October 1944 - Tamu, Burma (posthumous)
29. 24782 Sepoy Bandhari Ram, 10th (16th?) Baluch Regiment - 22 November 1944 - East Mayu, Arakan, Burma
30. 55537 Rifleman Thaman Gurung, 5th Royal Gurkha Rifles (Frontier Force) - 10 November 1944 - Monte San Bartolo, Italy (posthumous)
31. IO-49170 Jemedar Prakash Singh, 13th Frontier Force Rifles - 17 February 1945 - Kalan Ywathit, Burma (posthumous)
32. 14922 L/Naik Sher Shah, M.M., 16th Punjab Regiment - 20 January 1945 - Kyeyebyin, Kaladan Valley, Burma (posthumous)
33. Naik Gian Singh, 15th Punjab Regiment - 2 March 1945 - Kamye-Myingyan, Burma
34. 18602 Naik Fazal Din, 10th Baluch Regiment - 2 March 1945 - Meiktila, Burma (posthumous)
35. 44928 Havildar Umrao Singh, Indian Artillery - 15 December 1944 - Kaladan Valley, Arakan, Burma
36. 10020 L/Naik Bhabbhagta Gurung, 2nd King Edward VII's Own Gurkha Rifles - 5 March 1945 - Snowden East, Ramree Island, Arakan, Burma
37. 18706 Sepoy Namdeo Jadhav, 1/5th Maratha Light Infantry - 9 April 1945 - Senio River, Italy
38. IEC-5504 Lieutenant Karamjeet Singh Judge, 15th Punjab Regiment - 8 March 1945 - Myingyan, Burma (posthumous)
39. 26534 Sepoy Ali Haider, 13th Frontier Force Rifles - 9 April 1945 - Senio River, Italy
40. 87726 Rifleman Lachman Gurung, 4/8th Gurkha Rifles - 13 May 1945 - Taungdaw, Burma

[freespeechoverpcnonsense]

If you called me a lazy black bastard I am not going to be offended so why should you lot worry?

[FREEDOM]

Just wanted to throw something else into the mix.

did you know Lord Levy's arguement has now changed to the fact of it being anti semitic.

The article from the times " The Times was told last night that the senior party hierarchy had been made aware of fury in the Jewish community at the treatment of Lord Levy after all that he has done for the party”. A senior Labour figure said: “These are very significant people who make a very significant contribution to the party.” He added: “And their support is transferable. David Cameron is making a substantial effort to lobby this community.”

Lord Levy’s rabbi, Yitzchak Schochet, said Jews were scared that the inquiry would lead to “one Jew being hung out to dry”.

So now is this why these stories are coming out today, so when it all comes out in the wash, will Lord Levy say. " Is it because I am Jewish?

[Womens Day]

All PC nonsense achieves is division, hatred and dishonesty in life. Today at the deserted HOC debate on womens day Vera (ginge) Baird was happyto stand atthe despatch box and score points with a comment "Well its nice to know that... blah no womens days were held before 1997 and ...blah.....blah...." that went unchallenged.

No you sill cow because the WOMAN running the country had better things to do. If this is the standard of the PC agendathen it cannot be hard to shrug off surely. like others on this thread I will not vote Conservative or for any one else because I fundementally disagree with the Nulab, socialist, dishonest, immoral, victim culture and the direction we have been headed for the last 20 years. It doesnt work, surely the evidence is all around you.

So I am happy to wait until a party offers me a single policy I can believe in. I think it has come to that, I can honestly say there is not one current pledge, commitment,or ideal that the Tory Party is offering that i can say i really strongly believe in. and thats from a tory who believes in the NHS and better education for all etc.

[Sean Fear]

"Cameron is standing outside Millbank and talking PC bullshit. Does this not worry anyone?"

Mercer's comments were ill-judged, and poorly expressed. And I'd certainly agree that while a certain degree of rough humour has its place in the army, soldiers shouldn't have to endure relentless racial bullying either.

But they certainly weren't racist remarks, and they shouldn't be spun as such by our own side.

[DrFoxNews]

We should not tolerate racism in the Army or in any walk of life. - David Cameron

Certainly not. Mercer's comments are in the same league as the joke about the Spice Girls told by a 'senior shadow cabinet member' a few years back, which asked "what do you call four dogs and a blackbird?"

I had the privilege to command soldiers from across the East Midlands of whom many came from racial minorities. - Patrick Mercer

Ah, the old Ron Atkinson defence. Soldiers from racial minorities were under his command. So, that's all right then.

Still, with Mercer's sacking, calls for Mundell's head, Maude's woeful performance on Question Time last week and the imminent publication of Hague's latest book, surely the long-awaited shadow cabinet reshuffle can now be brought forward? Time to let the Fox loose amongst this bunch of headless chickens!

[Jack Stone]

TomTom. Glad to see that you accept that people from ethnic minorities can do something right and are not the source of all of our problems which you often give the impression of believeing.

[Richard Tyndall]

The only 'idiot' round here (to answer those accusing Patrick of such a condition) is Cameron. He has proved utterly inept in handling anything approaching a controversy and has just added to the list of former life long Tory supporters who would rather see the Tories lose the next election than win with Cameron in charge.

[jorgen]

Welcome to the club, Richard.

[Richard Tyndall]

I am in a particularly awkward position as Patrick is my MP. But he is at least honest and intelligent enough to understand when I tell him - as I have done - that I would probably not vote for him at the next election because of the man who leads his party.

[Alex Forsyth]

Returning after a couple of days away on business I see Jack Stone's moronic ravings have gone into top gear.

This socialist troll - who has apparently never worn the Queen's uniform - must be enjoying the latest spectacle of Tory self-destruction.

Patrick Mercer was one of the minority of senior Tories with experience of real life, and I assume that what he said he said with the benefit of knowledge.

Let Cameron's cowardly reaction be another nail in his coffin. He has proved what many of us have realised for months. The Conservative Party is now dangerously split between believers in free speech and believered in PC tyranny.

And the "leader" is anti-freedom. It's as simple as that.

[Alex Forsyth]

Richard I would always vote for a decent MP like Patrick. OTOH if I lived in Cameron's constituency he would never get a vote out of me, nor any one of my family. My wife detests him as much as I do.

Cameron's persecution of Mercer proves that our party has been hi-jacked by the PC left. We need to be ready to fight back and reclaim the party for decent Conservatism,

For the present we must bide our time.

[Biodun]

My personal opinion as a black woman is that Patrick Mercer's comments were NOT racist at all. They were however VERY clumsily phrased.

I doubt that MPs have to resign every time they make a comment in the media that goes down the wrong way. He has probably been forced out for other reasons and this is just the cover under which it's been done.

[Ted]

Sean Fear

I agree - I do not believe Mercer is racist and the support he received from those who served under him shows that. I do think though that his instinctive defence of the Army, honourable though that is, blinded him to the recognition that there might be truth in what the Commonwealth soldier was claiming.

He offered a sincere apology and as the type of person he is accepted that he should resign. Hopefully this is not the end of his front bench career.

[Alex Forsyth]

He has probably been forced out for other reasons and this is just the cover under which it's been done.

I can think of one very obvious reason, Biodun.

He's a Conservative.

[Alex Swanson]

"If senior Conservatives continue to believe there's refuge to be had in arguing the toss over semantics (aided by contributions from readers of ConservativeHome) then we will neither achieve nor deserve power."

On the contrary, if the Left is allowed to dictate the terms of the debate, and in particular to veto all opinions *they* deem offensive regardless of reason, you're doomed before your start.

I have no idea what Cameron thinks he's going to achieve by this. Anyone who's going to be so offended by this that they would be likely to change their vote is hardly likely to vote Conservative anyway. All that he's done is help confirm to many people that if you're not PC, the Establishment doesn't want to know you. That'll simply add to the general disillusion with politics.

[James Boulter]

Mercer needs to go the Jack Straw School of how to get good publicity from voicing the politically incorrect.

[jorgen]

I have no idea what Cameron thinks he's going to achieve by this.

Cameron is trying to be whiter than white (honestly, no pun intended!). First he painted the Conservative Party as the nasty party. Now he confirms that Mercer's remarks were racist. Cameron is wrong in both these viewpoints.

[Anamika]

I dont know about the "life long" Conservatives who are put off by Mr.Cameron's swift decision, but as an Asian and "new" conservative, I plan to definitely vote for him. And hope he wins!
The issue isn't if Mercer is racist or not; the issue is whether he realises that certain forms of speech are unacceptable to many of us here. Perhaps this will be a lesson.
Well done Mr. Cameron - its time to take a strong stand on thoroughly unacceptable terminology. Similar statements would not be acceptable if made about Jewish soldiers/policement; so if anti-Semitism is unacceptable in public discourse, then so is racism. Good job, Mr. Cameron.

[Observer]

Similar statements would not be acceptable if made about Jewish soldiers/policement

Not unless made in Urdu

[Richard Tyndall]

Well Anamika if this is your idea of a proper Conservative party, new or otherwise, you can stick it. Is it any wonder that Cameron has failed to gain any significant new support and has had to rely on the tumbling fortunes of Labour just to maintain a slender lead in the polls?

Your Conservative party (it certainly isn't mine any more) will never gain power, nor will they deserve to as long as they so comprehensively betray the principles of freedom of expression and freedom of the individual that people like Patrick Mercer stand for.

[James Holliday]

As a lifelong Tory who has 'lurked' here for a while before now posting for the first time I absolutely echo what has been said on behalf of Partick Mercer,

At most what Mercer said might have warrranted a slap on the wrist, but only because it was 'undiplomatic'. The sad fact is - and I too have worked with ethnic minorities - that is almost certainly true.

In the party I have known and loves we aren't used to being bullyragged by PC Kommisars. That's what you expect among Blair and his reds.

I voted for Cameron. I'm sure Im not the only one who regrets it now.

[Jarod Weaver]

I, like Richard Tyndall live in Patrick's constituency. I am torn between voting for Patrick (who I admire on both a personal level and as a fantastic constituency MP) and giving succour to that prat that leads our party. David Cameron gave no logical thought or reasoned analysis to Patrick's comments, he just saw the word "race" and reacted like a student union activist, then congratulated himself on his "progressive" credentials, smug in the knowledge that the BBC and the Guardian will give him another chance. In all the years I have known Patrick Mercer, if I had the slightest idea that he had racist tendencies, I would not have voted for him, never mind campaigned for him. A honourable man has been sacrificed on the alter of the intolerent left, the McCarthyism of our times. I am a very depressed man tonight.

[REX SHELTON]

Mr Mercer has spoken with honesty and clarity about matters anyone who has been near the armed forces knows to be true.Are not honesty and clarity what ther Conservative Party is about? I have one complaint- he seems almost ashamed of being a Lieutenant Colonel;perhaps it is not the most senior rank but it a proud and honourable rank. I wish he would wear it with pride. But at least he is often seen wearing a tie.