Lord Tebbit becomes sponsor of 'Better Off Out'

Former Party Chairman Norman Tebbit has become the latest senior Conservative to lend his weight to The Freedom Association's Better Off Out campaign.  Lord Tebbit joins Frederick Forsyth and former Commons Speaker Lord Weatherill as patrons of 'BOO'.  Explaining his decision, Lord Tebbit said:

"From being a supporter of British membership of the Common Market in 1970 I have come to believe that the United Kingdom would be Better Off Out of the developing European Republic of the 21st century. We British have a thousand year history of self-government. We have been free and democratic longer than any other nation. The European Union is too diverse, too bureaucratic, too corporatist and too centralist to be a functioning democracy. We are happy to trade with our European friends and the rest of the world - but we would prefer to govern ourselves."

In a Q&A for today's ConservativeHome, however, John Maples MP - in charge of candidates at CCHQ - says that he and the party will take "a dim view" of any candidate that signs the BOO pledge.  "This campaign is contrary to party policy," he writes, "...[and] we expect candidates, before and after selection to support party policy."  Gordon Henderson, Tory candidate in Sittingbourne and Sheppey, is the only candidate to have signed up to BOO so far.  A poll by ConservativeHome of party members found that 30% supported the BOO campaign and another 33% had sympathy for its objectives but feared it might be divisive.

Related link: We must have the courage to break free of the EU, says Philip Hollobone MP.

Comments

[Anne Fletcher]

It is good to see Lord Tebbit supporting the excellent Better Off Out campaign. It has, rightly, focused on the positive benefits for Britain of leaving the EU, rather than just criticising the EU itself (though there's always plenty to criticise).

Whilst the strength of this campaign is its non-party nature, it often helps to have political heavyweights on side, and you can't get a much greater heavyweight than Norman Tebbit. The Better Off Out team are doing a great job right across the
country and deserve congratulations for this latest 'recruit'. Many of those who supported the so-called 'Common Market' are now aghast at how things have turned out and how they were deceived: I hope more of them will follow Lord Tebbit's lead and join Better Off Out.

[HF]

I do believe we will be better off out. The issue is that these small fringe groups are not going to achieve that for us when they spend their time sniping at the most Eurosceptic of the parties (us).

The way to win over someone is not to spend the time kicking the person you are trying to seek to win to your side. All they end up doing is getting bruised and resenting the tactics you have adopted even if they originally had some sympathy with your view.

What is required is for BOO backer TFA to have a quiet meeting with the Conservative party and the TFA to promise to stop attacking the Conservative Party and the Conservative party to loosen up on opposing BOO.

Carrying on the snide remarks (from TFA) and the "3 line whips" from CCHQ only benefits Lab+LDs.

BOO will only happen under a Conservative government.

Will it happen? Somehow I doubt it as both TFA and the Bruges Group have shifted into bed with UKIP as the natural home of the grumpy old right wing men.

[michael mcgough]

A significant and most welcome major addition to this non partisan campaign ,which,as Anne points out focuses upon the positive benefits of being outside the EU.
Candidates Czar Maples will ensure we won't know the views of Tory PPCs on the EU which is a disapointment .

[Richard]

What part of "we want a free trade area and nothing more" do the Continental elites not understand?

[Cllr Keith Standring]

What splendid news that Lord Tebbit has allied himself so formidably as a sponsor of BETTER OFF OUT. He has never lacked courage nor shirked from doing what he considered was his patriotic duty.

Having been proud to be a supporter of BETTER OFF OUT since its launch, I am confident many more of my fellow-Conservatives will follow Lord Tebbit's lead, and stand firm for Britain against the pressure exerted from and by CCHQ.

[Caroline Hope]

Perhaps this will make up for his Lordship's encouraging his party to vote for the Single European Act, which started the rot as we know it.

There is more joy in heaven when one sinner repenteth... etc

[Tim Aker]

Well done Lord Tebbit! BOO goes from strength to strength with Councillors, PPC's, MEPs and MPs signing up bit by bit. In putting the positive case for leaving the EU, BOO is showing how optimistic our future is outside the enclosed, bureaucratic, anachronistic European bloc. Let's hope, now BOO continues with future successes!

[TFA Tory]

Does John Maples' statement mean that the Candidates will stop Parliamentary supporters of BOO being reselected? His statement is typically vague.

It is wrong for HF to say that TFA has shifted into bed with UKIP. It is independent of political parties but tends to attract Conservative and UKIP members and supporters.

The most prominent supporters of BOO are Conservatives - Philip Davies MP, Douglas Carswell MP, Dan Hannan MEP and Roger Helmer MP. A few more have signed up as supporters and frontbenchers have told me that they are privately supportive too. It is great that Lord Tebbit now joins them as a Patron. Lord Stoddart, a Labour Peer is also a supporter. All three DUP MPs have signed up too.

The new TFA campaign for a referendum on the EU constitution has attracted support from all the major parties. Even pro-EU MPs such Richard Ottaway and Michael Mates are supporters.

Hopefully, these facts will stop the Europhile trolls from smearing TFA as pro-UKIP. TFA is genuinely independent.

[Anne Fletcher]

I agree with HF that it would be good if the Conservative Party 'loosen up on opposing Better Off Out'; it is wrong to try to prevent MPs or candidates from expressing their true opinions, particularly when recent opinion polls indicate that the general public is far from happy with EU membership. Fortunately, MPs such as Philip Davies have been prepared to speak their minds and back Better Off Out. Campaigns such as this are needed to give the Party a push (not that I am suggesting Mr Davies needed it) and show the strength of grass roots opinions.

It is also important, however, that this Campaign continues as a cross-party one, since it has attracted support from many parties, as well as those voters (the majority, perhaps)who have no particular allegiance.

[Cllr Keith Standring]

Hopefully, these facts will stop the Europhile trolls from smearing TFA as pro-UKIP. TFA is genuinely independent. TFA Tory @09:14

Well written TFA Tory. There is a saying amongst lawyers that if you have no case, attack the opposing brief. Since the europhiles have no case, they are driven to smear TFA/BOO and other euro-realists.

As a free-market, libertarian Conservative, I am confident that my Party will withdraw Britain from the EU long before UKIP forms a Government. This does not, however, prevent me from working with UKIP members and others who are signed-up to the BETTER OFF OUT campaign. My enemy's enemy is my friend, my enemy's friend is my enemy. My 'enemy' here is the EU, since it poses the greatest threat to British traditions including Parliamentary Sovereignty, Criminal Justice System and many others.

[Edward Huxley]

Great news for our country. Let`s hope more Conservative MPs will follow Lord Tebbit`s lead.

[HF]

In response to some of the points.

Why did the TFA publish on its main page a sneering article on the new logo for the Conservative party and leave it there for several months? What exactly had that to do with the goals of the TFA? The Chairman of TFA is Christopher Gill someone who has appeared in a UKIP dvd and spoken at the UKIP 06 conference. Is he a member of UKIP?

Why did the Bruges group publish many articles labelling DC "the boy David". Did that advance the BOO cause an inch or just seek to undermine his image with potential voters?

I repeat, I believe we should be BOO, I just cannot align with folk who undermine my parties chances of winning the next GE.

[Frank McGarry]

John Maples says that we expect candidates and MEPs to support party policy. But our Conservative Europhile MEPs refused to follow party policy on withdrawal from the European People's Party in the EU parliament and David Cameron was left with egg on his face.

Whilst the Party does not at this state wish to advocate withdrawal from the EU, we all know that Britain would be better off out. This truth should not be suppressed.

We have to have people in the Party who are not afraid of being independent-minded and fearlessly telling it as it is.
I admire Lord Tebbit for this just as I admire my fellow Hullite, William Wilberforce.

Politics in today's world is all about deceit and deception - and nowhere is this more true than in Brussels.

[TFA Tory]

HF goes back to the UKIP smear. Christopher Gill is a member of UKIP. He was the CONSERVATIVE MP for Ludlow. Several UKIP MEPs are TFA members too. So what? TFA is cross-party and independent.

There are several Conservative Parliamentarians who are TFA council members. They appear on Conservative Party literature and DVDs. Do you have a problem with that HF?

HF then tries smear by association. The Bruges Group, however, is not a BOO sponsor or funder.

As for the Conservative Party's new logo, it has been criticised by many leading Conservatives and commentators. It is, in my professional opinion as a communications expert, poor. Is fair comment not allowed in HF's vision of Conservatism?

Frankly, HF is a smear merchant and should crawl back under his stone.

[Derek]

Great news that Lord Tebbit is to become a patron. I do not believe we will leave the EU in a big bang, but rather through a series of steps, by opting out of different aspects and by use of what is left of our veto. In fact we will probably never leave completely, but will gradually dissociate ourselves from various obligations, ending up with our own unique relationship. A typically British compromise.

[HF]

TFA Tory How exactly is it within the TFA's remit to criticise our logo?

Does that improve our chances of becoming a freer society? Er no. It is irrelevant to TFA's stated aims.

Or does it meet the objectives of C. Gill the TFA Chairman and UKIP supporter?

The TFA site has carried articles critical of the Conservative party. Has it ever carried any articles critical of UKIP? What about Knapman's current split in the EC group that UKIP are part of? Answer = TFA have nothing to say on that.

Or Mote going off and joining Le Pen's EC grouping = Silence and the TFA still have Mote on their front page.

[TFA Tory]

The Conservatives replaced the torch of liberty with a squiggled tree that a child could have drawn. The Freedom Association is right to comment on that!

HF appears to be a CCHQ troll.

[Peter Hatchet]

Derek 10:24:

Very shrewd analyis. And you're probably dead right!

I'm sure the next Conservative government will put this into practice.

[Mark Wallace]

Firstly, thank you to those who have made such supportive comments above.

HF, I know that you have posted angrily before about TFA.net criticising the tree logo. That was a comment about the dropping of the torch of freedom, and the change of agenda that symbolised.

Does our web site criticise UKIP? Yes, actually it in fact carries at this very moment two articles, by John Redwood and Frederick Forsyth, critical of UKIP.

It is true that Christopher Gill is a UKIP member. As it happens, other TFA staff are independent or, like myself, members of the Conservative Party.

If Better Off Out was simply a cipher for UKIP or anyone else it would not enjoy the wide range of cross-party support that it does. I hope we can get back to discussing the actual news now!

Mark Wallace,
Campaign Manager,
Better Off Out

[TFA Tory]

Derek and Peter are over-optimistic. To renogotiate the terms of Britian's membership requires existing treaties to be amended. That can happen only with the unannimous agreement of all 25 member states.

Do you honestly think that the Spanish will allow us to exit the CFP? Will the French all the CAP to be reformed? Dream on! The days of opt-outs are long gone.

The reality is that if you are in the EU, you must accept the federalist agenda of the "European Project". If you are in the EU, you are run by the EU. The only alternative is to leave, as even Steve Norris now recognises.

We have two choices - to be a member of the EU Superstate or to leave. Norway and Switzerland have proposered outside the EU. Britain is BETTER OFF OUT too.

[malcolm]

As someone who also has much sympathy with the aims of BOO, I thought HFs oost was absolutely fair comment. I wish the TFA and other groups would adopt the understated,softly softly persuasive skill of someone like Phillip Hollobone rather than insulting the Conservative party.
Tebbit at his best is brilliant absolutely lethal in debate but sometimes his comments can be both divisive and self defeating. I hope he thinks carefully before saying damaging to his party.

[HF]

Mark

Thank you for pointing out the 2 articles which I will now read.

In actual fact I would prefer that the TFA attacked neither party unless it specifically relates to what they are doing about our freedoms.

[Steven Bainbridge]

This is brilliant news. Lord Tebbit remains a giant in British politics, and this will give real weight behind the campaign. What is more important than ever is to end this Europhile attitude that anybody who talks about leaving the EU is a loon. I don't know if anybody watched QuestionTime last night, but Nigel Farage was on, and made a point about the EU. The delightful Hazel Blears could not, typically in the pro-EU case, contradict his point so simply shook her head and said, "Yeah, well..." That is the kind of attitude that stinks regarding the EU, and it is this sort of consensus amongst the political elite that needs to be broken.

With Lord Tebbit's backing, I hope this can be achieved.

[George Hinton]

Anybody else seen the light?
Shame its taken Lord Tebbit so long to recognise the facts.

[Judith]

It is excellent news that Lord Tebbit is giving his support to the Better Off Out campaign.
Only a year or two ago, anybody who called for withdrawal from the EU was considered by the media to be a lunatic, but the Better Off Out campaign has done so much good work with its constructive arguments that the very phrase 'better off out' is regularly heard, and acknowledged as a sound political position.

[Mark Wadsworth]

Well done Lord T (although he did take his time ...)

[Tim]

Wonderful to see such an influential figure coming out in support of Better Off Out. Hopfully more will come to realise that a great many people, and particularly the young, who seem generally disillusioned with the state of our political parties, do oppose continued membership of the EU.

[Mandy Worrall]

John Maples should remember to stand up for his COUNTRY before his party. Glad Lord Tebbit and Gordon Henderson have the guts to do the right thing. As for the conservative party doing the federalists bidding, rather than what the country wants - No guts, no glory in the polls guys!

Conservative party policy is insulting to its members and the country. Softly, softly Malcom? 'Do not go softly...' Better off out!

The British people and those who wish to be British, come first with me. Thank goodness others are responding to the call to Stand up for Britain before any other State or organisation.

I cannot speak for Lord Tebbit, but if I intuit correctly, perhaps he was hoping that the party leadership would return to its duty; to common sense; to wake up! It hasn't and I am sure he like many of us,have lost patience.

The New Conservatives are simply Federalists with mainly British accents. This is where the relationship with country and patriotism ends. You know that 'word' that some have tried to make dirty! Why not send the treacherous bunch off to Brussels with their chits, to queue for their new department jobs en masse? It would save so much time and messing about.

[Sawed off Truth]

Well done Lord T. Incidentally I see that 18% of Conservatives rate UKIP their second choice, and 12% rate BNP.

[Mark Fulford]

I’m going to re-ask the question that I asked on another thread: Would you BOOers prefer the rest of the EU to remain together or would you be happy for everyone to get out?

And to Richard who asked What part of "we want a free trade area and nothing more" do the Continental elites not understand? I ask how do you have free trade without common trading rules?

If Britain were about to revert to an insular nation and mentality, I would emigrate to another nation in the EU first.

[Disillusioned]

Lord Tebbit is a popular grassroots figure but he’s out of touch with mainstream public opinion. And whilst the youth wing of the Conservative Party is eurosceptic and atlanticist most young people aren’t. Although, to put it bluntly, the most widespread view towards the EU is indifference. Most people do not consider the EU a major issue; the Conservatives would be stupid to remind people of the previous divisions on Europe that wrecked the party. Getting back to reality, Britain is never going to leave the EU. The EU is ultimately a good thing, there are problems with it but the solution is to reform and resolve – not to leave. Germany and the Netherlands at times like Britain appear to get a raw deal from the EU, whilst France and Spain seem to milk the EU for all that it is worth. Perhaps if instead of ill-thought middle England nationalism we involved ourselves more in the EU and worked more closely with our German and Dutch partners we would make the EU more worthwhile for Britain.

But ultimately EU members acting as 27 different voices will rapidly decline. We’re stronger together and stronger standing as one, EU members have the same common interests and we face the same common threats; to not work together would be absurd. Europe as one can far better defend European interests and preserve European influence and our European ways of life.

[Tanuki]

"....I ask how do you have free trade without common trading rules?..."

It's called competition. You don't regulate a free market into existence - a free market comes into existence through the _removal_ of regulations. This is something the Eurocrats completely fail to grasp.

[Michael McGowan]

Mark, NAFTA is a free trade area with common trading rules. Arguably a more successful one than the EU if its members' growth rates are anything to go by. Common trading rules do not require the elaborate supra-national superstructure of the EU, which is of course designed to create something akin to the United States of Europe. Pretending otherwise might have worked in 1975. It simply doesn't wash now. You seemingly regard Norway as an insular nation and mentality.....which would be news to me, not to mention the Norwegians.

[TFA Tory]

The Eurofanatic Mark Fulford asjed "would you BOOers prefer the rest of the EU to remain together or would you be happy for everyone to get out?"

Personally, I would hope that other nations would leave and too. However, since I believe in democracy (unlike the Commission-run EU) that is matter for the electorates of each member state.

Norway and Switzerland have not campaigned for other nations to leave the EU. Neither should we.

[David Belchamber]

I am as concerned as most of the above posters on this thread about the descent of the original "common market" into the socialist bureaucratic monlith that is now the EU but, while it still retains some legitimacy, I do wonder whether the next tory government should not at least make a genuine attempt to make it more democratic and less bureaucratic first. A commonsense approach might encourage support from other nations.
If that failed, then BOO!

[TFA Tory]

"Disillusioned" spouts the usual nonsense that true Eurorealists are "middle-class nationalists". Many of them fought to stop this country from being part of Hitler's European Superstate. We owe them a debt of gratitude.

The real nationalists are the EU imperialists who proposed that the EU flag should be flown and that the EU anthem be sung at Champions League matches and the Euro 2008 finals. They ignore the fact that many of the competing nations (e.g. in Eastern Europe, Israel) are not in the EU.

As for unity, perhaps he or she can comment why the German Presidency of the EU is ignoring the democratic wishes of the French and Dutch people who rejected the EU constitution. German fascism rears its ugly head again!

[Lord Cashcroft]

As Nigel suggested the other night - Why don't the Tories just merge with the Lib/Lab and become the axis of Euvil?

[Sean Fear]

Britain was not an insular country prior to 1973. Rather the reverse in fact.

[Mark Fulford]

a free market comes into existence through the _removal_ of regulations

A true free market results in lowest common denominator competition, which very few actually want.

NAFTA is a free trade area with common trading rules

NAFTA was established in 1994 so, at only 13, it has already fathered NAAEC and NAALC. Give it another 37 years and see how different it is...

Personally, I would hope that other nations would leave and too.

TFA Tory wants to revert to feudal Europe. How medieval.

You seemingly regard Norway as an insular nation

No, but I do regard them as more insular than us. Would you be happy for us to be outside the EU but part of the EEAA?

[TFa Tory]

Very true, Sean. Britain's application to join the EU was blocked by De Gaulle for many years. Such gratitude for liberating his country from the Nazis!

[Anne Fletcher]

I'm afarid that Disillusioned's hopes to 'reform and resolve' the EU might be good in theory, but just won't work. We have had 30 years of people in Britain saying that we should stay in, and try to reform the EU, but it simply never happens. The rules, the secrecy, the corruption etc all get in the way. That is one of the reasons why, as one of the earlier posters says, young people are very anti-EU. They have seen what has happened and have heard plans for reform all their lives, which never come to fruition; it is clear to them that its an idea which belongs in the past. Young people, with modern communications, see the whole world out there, not an inward-gazing EU, and they know that it is in Britain's interests to get out. They see money which could fund higher education, or the NHS or our armed forces just being wasted in the EU. Better Off Out has been successful in attracting the younger voters, something our political parties have not managed; I am sure the fact that the campaign director is young and well informed has been influential (I have heard him speak at one political meeting last year) and this campaign is surely a long term one. We need support at all ends of the spectrum - from those with Lord Tebbit's experience, to the new voters too.

[Anne Fletcher]

I'm afarid that Disillusioned's hopes to 'reform and resolve' the EU might be good in theory, but just won't work. We have had 30 years of people in Britain saying that we should stay in, and try to reform the EU, but it simply never happens. The rules, the secrecy, the corruption etc all get in the way. That is one of the reasons why, as one of the earlier posters says, young people are very anti-EU. They have seen what has happened and have heard plans for reform all their lives, which never come to fruition; it is clear to them that its an idea which belongs in the past. Young people, with modern communications, see the whole world out there, not an inward-gazing EU, and they know that it is in Britain's interests to get out. They see money which could fund higher education, or the NHS or our armed forces just being wasted in the EU. Better Off Out has been successful in attracting the younger voters, something our political parties have not managed; I am sure the fact that the campaign director is young and well informed has been influential (I have heard him speak at one political meeting last year) and this campaign is surely a long term one. We need support at all ends of the spectrum - from those with Lord Tebbit's experience, to the new voters too.

[TFA Tory]

No Mark Fulford. It is you who is medieval. I want Europe to return to democracy instead of being ruled by unelected and corrupt bureaucratic elite.

[Mark Fulford]

...young people are very anti-EU.

It's funny, on some threads young people are too inexperienced for serious jobs, on others they're champions and pivots of opinion.

[Michael McGowan]

Mark, your over-glib answer overlooks that fact that there is nothing in the Constitution of NAFTA which requires the the US, Canada or Mexico to accept as law rules laid down by a supranational body which claims supremacy over them. Any free trade area will require some level of bureaucracy to police it but the EU goes far far beyond that.

I have absolutely no idea whether Norway is more insular than we are. I strongly suspect that the average Norwegian has a much better command of other languages than the average Brit. If so, that would suggest you may be wrong.

[Michael McGowan]

PS I should have answered your other question by asking you a question: Norway is a member of the EEA so the 4 EU Freedoms apply to it as well as to full EU Members. So it gets the single market benefits of the EU while still making most of its own laws and avoiding being entangled in things such as the CAP and the CFP. So where do you think the Morwegians are losing out?

[Winston Smith]

If John Maples is happy to take a "dim view" of candidates that sign the BOO pledge, can we also have the same treatment of those elected Conservatives in the European Parliament who consistently put the interests of the EU above those of the UK.

The BOO campaign is a means of invigorating a debate that is long overdue. If we as the Conservative Party do not have the courage to engage in that debate, who else will?

[Matt Davis]

Of course we'd be better off out and the fact that the few Eurofantacists posting in favour of our continued membership have failed to give a single real world reason why we'd not be better off out proves that.Go on Mark Fulford give us one good reason why we're better off in then?

[Mark Fulford]

So where do you think the Morwegians are losing out?

Quoting from Norway's government web site:

European cooperation is under continual development, becoming both broader and deeper.

...

The EEA Agreement is constantly evolving. New EU rules governing the internal market must be implemented in Norwegian law as they are adopted.

I'm sorry to say that I have no more time to discuss this.

[Disillusioned]

"As for unity, perhaps he or she can comment why the German Presidency of the EU is ignoring the democratic wishes of the French and Dutch people who rejected the EU constitution. German fascism rears its ugly head again!"

A quite disgusting remark. Nonetheless exactly the kind of illogical drivel we all expect from the Daily Mail reading little Englander crowd.

Indeed, the French and Dutch narrowly rejected the European Constitution. There happen however to be 27 member states. The French people gave Chirac a bloody nose, so what? Another referendum can be called if necessary and there are 25 other countries. But, referendums might not even be necessary. In Britain certainly the only reason for a referendum is to appease The Sun.

[Mark Fulford]

Go on Mark Fulford give us one good reason why we're better off in then?

I'll have to refer you to the previous posts I've made defending the EU (fairly pointlessly on this site). Alternatively, I recommend:

Why Europe Will Run the 21st Century

[Matt Davis]

"I'm sorry to say that I have no more time to discuss this" - Mark Fulford. That'll be because you were asked to come up with one good reason why we're better off in then and since you can't you've scarpered.Typical eurofantacist.

On another note if the NEF europhiles succeed in replacing good eurosceptic MEPs like Roger Helmer and Syed Kamall with europhiles, whatever their gender or ethnicity, I for one will refuse to campaign at the Euro elections in protest at this disgraceful undemocratic stitch up and I would encourage the vast bulk of the party, who are also eurosceptic to do the same.

[Matt Davis]

Why Europe Will Run the 21st Century is a classic example of total eurofantasy which wholly ignores the realities of both Europe and the World in general. How on earth anyone can read it and then take such a piece of pie in the sky nonsense seriously is completely beyond me.

[Mark Wadsworth]

Mark Fulford "how can you have free trade without common rules" ... er... there has been free trade on a global scale for centuries.

In fact, restricting free trade is a relatively new invention.

[Andrew Smith]

What a timely result and what an excellent man to have on our side of the arguement. But is he in the right party any more and will he lose the whip in the HoL?

Perhaps Lord Carrington might sign the petition following his recent disclosure that he did not appreciate, at the time he was aleading member of the Macmillan and Heath teams, what the EU would become - even he thought it would be all about trade and associated matters.

[Ted]

Matt & others

The problem with BOO is that the UK can leave the EU but as the EEA experience shows to retain the preferential access to the free trade area we will then still have to conform with the EU in the areas of Social Policy, Consumer Protection, Environment, Company Law and Statistics without any ability to opt out or be involved in the setting of that legislation.

Norway, Switzerland and Iceland still have to contribute to the EU in things like social & economic cohesion for the Internal Market, agree with the EU free movement of goods, persons, services and capital.

Inside the EU we have the chance to roll back on the aquis communitaire - outside we either cut ourselves off entirely , destroy by doing so London as a financial centre and the UKs service industries, or we become a member of the EEA so bear most of the current burdens without influence at all.

I don't like that; I'd prefer restoration of full sovereignty, mastery of UK borders and seas. Defeatist perhaps but I can't see this is achievable without major impact on the UK's economy. We would then go back, cap in hand. to beg for re-entry and the electorate would never again support any hold up in euro-federalism. Remember the experience of Scotland and the Darien settlement - two centuries of full integration.

[Sean Fear]

"Inside the EU we have the chance to roll back on the aquis communitaire - outside we either cut ourselves off entirely , destroy by doing so London as a financial centre and the UKs service industries"

But would we? After all, we were promised the demise of the City of London if we weren't part of the Euro?

[TFA Tory]

Am I the only one who suspects that "Ted" is a nom de plume of Tim Montgomerie, our esteemed editor? Note the "mac.com" email address above.

The point about the EEA is fair. My proposed solution is that the EEA be governed separately by an enlarged EFTA that includes the EU members that wish to join it. The EEA would be a new Common Market without the CAP and CFP. The EU would therefore concentrate on political union and social matters.

Britain would be in the Common Market not the EU - just as we voted for in 1973.

[Mark Fulford]

"That'll be because you were asked to come up with one good..."

No, it's because I am out of time, simple as that. I have given reasons plenty of times before so, if you're really intersted, search my previous posts. The book contains good reasons too.

[William Norton]

I'm not wild about the cover - is that going to be the new flag?

[Mark Wadsworth]

Ted, but what happens if we leave, maybe the Dutch would follow and a few other net contributors besides?

[Michael McGowan]

Mark refers us to a book lauded by Will Hutton, auther of the infamous "The State We're In" whose predictions were more or less entirely wrong. Europe may run the 21st Century but in ways Mark does not expect: Putin probably regards himself as European for these purposes.

As for Mark's quote from the Norwegian Government website, I know that Norway is subject to the rules of the Single Market. That is the point I made earlier: it has adopted some but not all of the EU rules. Mark also seems to have dropped his dubious assertion that we are less insular than the Norwegians because we are in the EU.

Ted, no disrespect but you are simply rehashing the old "influence" argument. It cut little ice when the EU was smaller. It cuts none at all in a 27-Member EU. I can see no obvious reason why being in the EEA but not the EU would undermine London as financial centre. In particular, we would have full access to the Single Market. IF Switzerland, a much smaller country completely landlocked by the EU can flourish without being part of the Single Market, then why would the UK be reduced to basket case status?

[Sean Fear]

I think the optimal situation would be for several nations to leave simultaneously.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

http://ec.europa.eu/publications/booklets/move/56/en.pdf

Worth reading!

[TFA Tory]

It is interesting Justin. It is called "Better Off In Europe". It appears to be a response to Better Off Out, proof that our campaign has the bureaucrats in Brussels worried.

Much of the document lauds the Euro. Do you support Britain joining?

It also repeats the myth that to enjoy the benefits of the Single Market, you must be in the EU. There is no mention of the EEA or EFTA.

[Yet Another Anon]

Gordon Henderson, Tory candidate in Sittingbourne and Sheppey, is the only candidate to have signed up to BOO so far.
Although this is leaving out some Conservative MP's who have signed it, most of whom are showing every sign of intending to stand at the next General Election.

As for this argument that the Conservative Party is the most Eurosceptic Party, the whole point is that an increasing number of people are not prepared to continue to accept rhetoric that continues to complain about the EU while at the same time ending up signing up to more, the only difference between Labour and the Conservatives on this since 1979 is that at least the Labour leadership when in power has admitted that it is it's intention to expand co-operation in the EU, in fact whereas the Conservative Party has never advocated leaving the EU\EEC, Labour has at times in the past - the numbers of MP's advocating leaving the EU in both main parties are roughly the same percentage of each party - there are a number of different reasons why anyone could advocate leaving the EU and equally there are a number of different ways in which things were to change some other body might satisfy those objections. Some opponents of the EU would be happy to accept it if it merely went for a single free market with no Labour regulation, others object to it's extreme liberal opposition to Capital Punishment and extreme liberal obsessions with Human Rights. More on the Labour side objections are that it is too Capitalist, then there are also objections to the Fortress Europe mentality that is obsessed with creating some kind of successor to the Holy Roman Empire when much of Europe happily is free from such popish notions.

[Paul Oakley]

As we're plugging books, can I recommend the following? As UK governments of all colours have consistently refused to produce a thorough analysis of the benefits of membership, this is the closest thing we have

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Should-Britain-Leave-EU-Relationship/dp/1845423798/ref=sr_1_1/203-1773352-8147913?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175269754&sr=8-1

[TFA Tory]

Yet Another Anon wins the prize for the longest ever sentence posted on Conservative - the one that starts the second paragraph above. With better grammar, it could have been a very good post.

[Ash Faulkner]

" am as concerned as most of the above posters on this thread about the descent of the original "common market" into the socialist bureaucratic monlith that is now the EU but, while it still retains some legitimacy, I do wonder whether the next tory government should not at least make a genuine attempt to make it more democratic and less bureaucratic first. A commonsense approach might encourage support from other nations.
If that failed, then BOO!"

Absolutely right. We can't just get into government and immediately pull out, we should fiercely push for reform for at least the first parliament. If were to just pull out immediately without trying to fix things from within, we'll be seen as reactionary and undiplomatic.

Either Europe reforms and we remain, or it doesn't and we leave. Either way we win.

[Lucy]

Ted, why would pulling out of the EU 'destroy...London as a financial centre'?

[Don Hoyle]

Why does a beneficent and co-operative union such as the European Union, in which we were persuaded to stay by Mr Heath as we would reap massive benefits, force metrication on us under pain of law. It may be a good idea, if we want to increase our trade with other countries, to add grams and other metrically equivalent sizes to our pounds and ounces, feet and inches on the labels, but not replace our pounds and ounces etc?

It may be a fault of mine, but I tend to look at the little things; a simple, piddly, little thing like telling us to use metric units rather than Imperial has led to a police raid on a green-grocer weighing out a pound of bananas - a raid such as you would have expected to happen to a drug dealer or other criminal. Are we better off because of this?

Now jump forward to today and try to grasp the benefits of EU membership as it applies to this little problem with our sailors kidnapped by Iran.

Firstly, so short of resources are our forces, because of the billions being poured into funding the European Army in preference to our own, that the helicopter keeping tabs on the sailors ran out of petrol and returned to ship, leaving the boarding party unprotected from the air. Then there are the appeals for support from our EU "partners".

These would include the Germans who are currently not allowed out after dark in their part of Afghanistan and the French, who were falling over themselves to flog the Argies more Exocets during the Falklands War. I haven't seen them rushing to help. Useless as chocolate fireguards.

Pondering over the Maastricht Treaty referendum in 1997 caused me to have a bit of a Damascene moment. The question became one not of saving the pound but of staying in the EEC (or whatever it was called that week). I concluded we would indeed be better off out and nothing has happened since to make me change my mind.

We have to get out and the sooner the better. Sorry to sound negative about this but I am bitter, frankly, over my own Party's attitude towards Europe. Leave the rebel MEPs alone but put a thumb in the eye of anyone who does no more than sign the BOO document.

Well done Lord Tebbit.

[Alistair]

Interesting to note the bile poured on Ted Heath, one of the last true Conservative patriots to have a real vision for Britain.

It's the replacement of decent moderates like Macmillan and Heath by extremists like Thatcher, Tebbit, and later the deeply unpleasant far-right Tories who crawled out of the slime of the FCS and YCs to hi-jack the party who have made the Tories ultimately unelectable.

The 'moderate' masquerade by Cameron and his sidekicks is now wearing very thin indeed and rightly so. Very interesting that the Telegraph's new poll not only shows a drop in Tory support but also exposes the horrific fact that the 2nd choice of many Tories are the racist thugs of the BNP.

Before the flood inevitable abuse, I was once proud to be a Conservative and held office in the party.

Never again.

[Sean Fear]

Very interesting that the Telegraph's new poll not only shows a drop in Tory support "

It would be very interesting if it did, but it doesn't.

[TomTom]

Alistair I think you should revisit edward Heath and Selsdon Man....maybe you will see how Heath attempted to pursue the very policies Thatcher later implemented. Heath failed because Ian Macleod died within a month of taking office and Heath played at being his own Chancellor through Anthony Barber - his Competition & Credit Control 1971 deregulating credit coupled with local government reorganisation entrenched inflation in the system.

From being a Monetarist Heath U-turned in 1972 over Upper Clyde Shipbuilders and tried to fund the oil price increase of 1973 with easy monetary policy which brought the country to 26% wage inflation with the usual 18-24 month lag

Heath was a right-winger who failed and flip-flopped, and could not control his high-spending Education Secretary (M Thatcher) or his high-spending Health Secretary (K. Joseph)........I wonder if Brown is reading up on that period ?

[TomTom]

and the French, who were falling over themselves to flog the Argies more Exocets during the Falklands

Funny that....both Nott and Thatcher say Mitterand was extremely helpful in blocking Exocets going to Argentina and blocking spares for Super Etendards.......it was Israel which was supplying Exocets to Argentina......

[Michael McGowan]

Alastair "Campbell" lauds the "decent moderate" Ted Heath who became an uncritical mouthpiece for the Communist Party of China and to his eternal shame, an apologist for the Tien An Men Square Massacre. If that is Alastair's idea of decency, maybe the Conservative Party is well rid of him.

As for that other "decent moderate", MacMillan, Denis Healey describes him memorably as an "unscrupulous opportunist and a brilliant actor". Still, surveying Westminster today, MacMillan can console himself that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[malcolm]

I'd love to know what office you once held Alistair.To call someone like Margaret Thatcher an extremist is by any stretch of the imagination a remarkably foolish thing to say. Although of course I will not be able to prove it, I very suspect sir, that you're lying through your teeth about any involvement whatsoever within the Conservative party.

[michael mcgough]

John Maples MP - in charge of candidates said
"...[and] we expect candidates, before and after selection to support party policy."

unless they are MEPs and the issue is EPP membership

[Newspeak]

Moderate, Extreme, Decent, Sick; these are the interchangeable words mixed in with whatever they want to praise, denigrate or normalise. It's how they 'cook the lobster' without it feeling any pain or in this case adjusting thought patterns without realising what's going on. Repeat them enough times and you then achieve your goal. The classic Animal Farm scenario where 4 legs good progresses to 2 legs better. In modern jargon they call it "neural linguistic programming" and this is being used by the left and now the Tory party in shaping the mass consciousness.
So here are some words which should always be put in front of the Tory party.
Lying.
Underhand.
Unbelievable.
Power obsessed.
Extreme Europhilia.
Untrustworthy.
Careerist.
Sly.
Devious.
Incapable.
Two-faced.
Empty.
Dying.
The list is endless

[Richard Tyndall]

Ted,

Norway only has to comply with the rules on the Single Market, nothing else. And even there all the rules are actually passed by the Norwegian Parliament rather than simply being nodded through as they are by the UK Parliament without any form of meaningful scrutiny.

The NOwregians are extremely happy with being outside the EU and not subject to its stupid rules and regulations or paying vast sums to support its corrupt bureaucracy. So much so that their Europhil PM has admitted there is no prospect of them even revisiting the question of membership in the foreseeable future.

Since I work in Norway I am very pleased to be doing my it to make sure they continue to stay outside by pointing up the complete mess that the EU makes of every single thing it touches.

[Gordon Henderson]

I signed up to the Better Off Out Campaign because I worry about the future of our country.

I have held Eurosceptic views for many years; for instance, I believe that our country has passed to the Europesn Union the right to decide too many policies that should more properly be decided by the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

I hold those views because I am a Conservative. I believe that we have a duty to uphold and protect the traditions,heritage, (unwritten) constitution, national institutions and independent governance of our country.

But, equally, I do not criticise those who hold an opposing view. The Europhiles are entitled to their opinion. That is what democracy is about. That is what, as a Conservative, I am trying to preserve; our right to disgree!

So, before all the posters on this thread mark me down as a reactionary semi-UKIP supporter who hates the direction in which the Conservative Party is heading, let me say: you are wrong!

Although I am a Eurosceptive Conservative, I support David Cameron and I support the way in which he is trying to change the Conservative Party.

We must become more representative of the population as a whole. We must be inclusive. We must recognise that our views (even those of an arch Eurosceptic like me!) are shared by many Britons, irrespective of their gender, race, religion or background. Conservatism is about believing in our nation, not worrying about the origins of that nation!

As the only selected parliamentary candidate who has signed up to the BOO campaign I welcome the support of Lord Tebbit. But please do not use Lord Tebbit's support as a club with which to beat David Cameron!

The most important thing to remember is that we have no influence over the future direction of our nation's destiny unless we work hard to ensure that David becomes Prime Minister after the next General Election.

Because, whichever side of the European argument you sit, you must accept that a Conservative Government will look after Britain's interests a damn sight better that the current lot!

[TFA Tory]

Gordon Henderson is remarkably generous to David Cameron who, by contrast, made a snide and childish remark about his Sittingbourne and Sheppey association and UKIP at the Blue Ball in Battersea.

It was a clear signal that Cameron took a dim view, to use John Maples's phrase earlier today, of Gordon supporting the Better Off Out campaign.

Going to Eton and Oxford or joining the Bullingdon and Whites Clubs does not necessarily make one a gentleman!

[Derek Bennett]

Conservative candidates are being threatend by their party leaders not to sign the BOO campaign. They should join UKIP where signing up to BOO is expected.

[Cllr Keith Standring]

I signed up to the Better Off Out Campaign because I worry about the future of our country.

I have held Eurosceptic views for many years; for instance, I believe that our country has passed to the European Union the right to decide too many policies that should more properly be decided by the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

I hold those views because I am a Conservative. I believe that we have a duty to uphold and protect the traditions,heritage, (unwritten) constitution, national institutions and independent governance of our country. Gordon Henderson @ 21:53

As a Conservative Councillor on Rother District Council (East Sussex), I am delighted to see Gordon Henderson has allied himself with the BETTER OFF OUT Campaign. There are a growing number of us who would like to think DC will raise our Party into Government, on the basis of immediate withdrawal from the EU and complete restoration of British traditions of Democracy, Freedom, Parliamentary Sovereignty and the Criminal Justice System, together with many other core Conservative values. Gradually, BOO is gaining adherents, including Lord Tebbit, who in any measure is still a big hitter.

The annihilation of British historical traditions did not succeed by way of
two World Wars, yet may well succeed by bribery, corruption and subversion
by the unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels, aided and
abetted by some British MP's. The British people deserve better.

[Matt Davis]

Alistair thanks for giving me a good laugh! You have held office in the Conservative party about as much as I have held office in Hizb Ut Tahrir.

[Tapestry]

Tebbit's right. We are BOO. I've already left I'm afraid, and am living outside the clutches of the EU. It's wonderful to be in a part of the world where human beings are just that - not mere items of bureaucratic process.

If Britain ever gets out of that f+++ing mess I would probably return after a while. Meanwhile you must fight to get out as completely and as quickly as possible.

John Maples and Francis Maude are Brussels stooges. Cameron knows he has to keep them close or feel their daggers in his back.

[Don Hoyle]

Tom Tom, I am certainly not going to cross swords with you. If you say that both Mrs Thatcher and John Nott were complimentary about Mitterand's helpfulness in blocking sales of Exocets to Argentina, I believe you.

I understood from a TV programme some time ago, though, that the massive intelligence operation to stop Exocet sales to the Argintine was initiated because the French were busting to sell more missiles, as the successful hit on HMS Sheffield became something of a showcase for the French and they were understandably keen to cash in. In the murky world of arms sales, it is entirely possible that the French were not going to sell to Argentina direct. As I remember, one of the intelligence operatives was told to buy any Exocet stock available with the government authorising unlimited funds to allow him to do so.

History has shown that, if the French did not directly sell weapons to our enemies during the Falklands war, this was the exception, not the rule. Being part of a 'European Union' makes no difference.

The E.U. has given Iran stern warnings over our sailors. Empty hot air and nothing else. It seems to me that 30-odd years in the EU/EEC has meant we are still on our own but with a mighty financial ball and chain hobbling us.

Back to the little things; so what if a green grocer is arrested like a common criminal because he wanted to sell bananas in pounds? Selling off our gold reserves was another little thing to get us into the Euro, that bright shiny new European money that gave you a rash if you handled it. These little things enabled us to join a magnificent club of European friends; enabled us to fund a super-duper white elephant called the Airbus A380, or develop the Euro fighter instead of buying that awful American stuff or to gobble up squillions dismembering our own army and reforming it into a 'European' Rapid Reaction Force that is sitting on its bot, somewhere.

And what is the net result for this country? We can't even fill our helicopters with enough petrol to be able to stick around long enough to tip our blokes (and blokesses) off when they are about to get ambushed.

[Tony Woodcock]

It is extremely important that Norman Tebbit has added the weight of his very incisive common sense to the Better Off Out campaign.
At the same time, it is further evidence of the disintegration of open politics in the Tory Party that Maples has warned those elected or wishing to be elected to the highest honour in politics - to represent the people in parliament - that open views on our relationship with the EU are verboten.
It also contradicts Dave's promise before his election as leader, not to persecute those who take a different line of the EU.
Is this another promise broken?
I cannot for the life of me understand how we can expect to govern Britain if the Tory elite impose a line on the EU that is contrary to the grass roots members. They tried to stifle debate on the EU at the Bournemouth conference with complete failure.

[Sean Fear]

"Alistair's" (if this is the same "Alistair" I'm familiar with) defection from the Conservative Party was due to his personal financial losses, which he blames on the Party. It has nothing to do with any "racism, homophobia etc." that he may have encountered within the Party.

[Ted]

Gosh I'm appraently Tim Montgomerie's alter ego!

Sean Fear

London as you say has prospered as a financial centre despite the stupid scare stories about what would happen if we didn't join the Euro. IMHO this because of that sensible choice while the UK remains part of the EU - we have the benefits of free movement of capital,people and services, with less regulation and no dead hand of the ECB. BOO would like to take away one of the props - the EU membership, then it's supporters would like increased national management of immigration (so all those French, German, Dutch bankers and financial guys would have to go home).

[Alistair]

Personally I don't know why Tebbit doesn't join the BNP.

But then that would apply to a lot of other Tories, wouldn't it.

As a resent poll has proved.

[Alistair]

Sean Fear's views, as ever, are wide of the mark.

Someone to be ignored.

[malcolm]

No Alistair, Sean is a widely respected Conservative who is seen as an authority on polling across the political spectrum. You on the other hand are a lying little troll. Go and plague some other blog please.

[Andrew Woodman]

ere ere Malcolm. Alistair, you are a tedious troll.

[Ash Faulkner]

"Interesting to note the bile poured on Ted Heath, one of the last true Conservative patriots to have a real vision for Britain."

Alistair, I don't know if you've read Heath's autobiography; I'll assume you haven't. The chapters on Europe are the most unpatriotic bile I've ever read on the subject, and Heath isn't just a Europhobe, he's a proud Eurofederalist.

He betrayed and deceived this country, happily falling over his feet to pander to his European buddies at the cost of our long-earnt sovereignty.

His book is full of putting Britain down, and he's stuck in a pre-Thatcher mindset. He was full, even to the end, of the idea that Britain was on the decline and thus needed to be propped up by second-rate countries like those on the Continent. He was thoroughly wrong in everything he did, he opposed the Thatcher revolution that turned this country back into the great nation it deserves to be, and he sold us off to Brussels knowing full well what it meant, and being pro-political union from the outset.

He is one of the most disgraceful leaders we have ever had.

[Ash Faulkner]

*I meant Europhile there, not Europhobe :P

[Anne Fletcher]

Its pointless to go over Ted Heath's conduct - far more use to concentrate on the present, and the excellent work being done by the Better Off Out campaign, which is going from strength to strength. We must get even more people to sign up to it,both in Parliament and outside.

[Anne Fletcher]

A further thought - I encourage you all to contact the Freedom Asociation and get some Better Off Out leaflets to distribute. If you are short of time,just do your own street; everything helps. Hand themin at shops of the library.

[Roger Helmer MEP]

Well done Lord Tebbitt for becoming a patron of Better Off Out. Well done the Freedom Association for launching the campaign. And well done David Cameron for making it clear that while Better Off Out is not Party policy, he is relaxed about back-bench Conservative parliamentarians supporting it.

[Steve]

You cannot promote the Tory party as pro-democracy, pro small government, pro accountability, and pro business and support the EU as it stands. We need to close the border as well very quickly, the social problems stemming from unrestricted migration are becoming acute in many areas and any economic problems in an EU state Time is of the essence now as the internal economic imbalances are starting to get very scary. We now have countries with 15%+ of GDP in the construction sector, we have asset bubbles everywhere, we have NO idea how many people we need to provide public services for and we have rampant exploitation of illegal migrants in many parts of the country.

We desperately need to construct a case for closing the open borders based on the need to provide properly for those who come here, ensure we get the economic migrants we want, allow 5 million people to escape Browns welfare trap who currently are marrooned at or near the minimum wage, end the ridiculous scenario of a minimum wage paid in overvalued sterling that attracts so many people here and most of all we MUST protect ourselves against a tidal wave of migration that could result from economic crisis elsewhere in the EU.

The time for 'reform' of the EU has long gone, action is required and it must come soon.